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Fax Celestis
2007-04-22, 03:38 PM
Why is point-buy's starting score 8, when the average of 4d6, drop lowest (the standard random determining method) is 10-11 or higher?

NEO|Phyte
2007-04-22, 03:41 PM
So that when they describe the Elite Array as 25pt buy(IIRC, anyway), such a comparison is physically possible?

Macrovore
2007-04-22, 03:43 PM
because point-buy sucks.
I prefer to give players an array of stats. 18, 18, 16, 14, 12, 10. I like high-powered games, and so do my players. It works really well for most builds, and it's really fun for my players to have nice, high-powered characters. of course, many powerful NPCs also have a similar array, so they're not getting it too easy.

Matthew
2007-04-22, 03:44 PM
Probably because 8 is the lowest score they expect a Character to have.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-22, 03:47 PM
Why is point-buy's starting score 8, when the average of 4d6, drop lowest (the standard random determining method) is 10-11 or higher?
Because average includes scores that are below average. :smallconfused:

Macrovore
2007-04-22, 03:49 PM
So that when they describe the Elite Array as 25pt buy(IIRC, anyway), such a comparison is physically possible?
even though the "Elite Array" doesn't make very elite characters at all.

on a related note, why do they have odd-numbered scores in the first place? it just seems kind of stupid to me.

Dorni
2007-04-22, 03:49 PM
It starts below the average because not every person is average at everything. A barbarian who dumps his int but still is just as intelligent as an average person doesn't make sense. A super charismatic wizard with an average strength score also doesn't make much sense.

I would reason that they picked 8 as a starting point because it is below average but not too low. If they started at, say, 6, they'd need to increase the point buys by 12 points in order to allow a player to buy average stats in every catagory. If a player is willing to dump stats then those 12 extra buy points are going to mean multiple 18s, which means having an 18 in a stat makes a character less special than it did before.

Saph
2007-04-22, 03:50 PM
Probably because 8 is the lowest score they expect a Character to have.

Yup.

The average score from 4d6-drop-the-lowest is 12-13 if I remember right. However, on average most sets of rolls will include at least one score of 9 or less, too.

- Saph

Indon
2007-04-22, 04:29 PM
Because if they made the base scores 6 and then gave you 12 more points to work with, people would dump their dump stats even more and end up with higher primary attributes due to their min/maxing.

And if they made the base scores 10 and then took away 12 points to work with, you really couldn't min/max much at all, or even really have a dump stat.

I consider it a good compromise, though, I guess you could tweak base scores if you're going to have a higher or lower powered campaign; rather than a 30-point buy compared to a 25, for instance, you could keep a 25-point buy and start stats at 9 or even 10 (gasp!).

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-22, 04:58 PM
even though the "Elite Array" doesn't make very elite characters at all.
Being at the top of their class in two very broad subjects (the 15 and 14) and excelling in another two (well above average 13 and 12), while actually being only poor in one area isn't elite?

Remember, "Elite" refers to how it compares to the average populace, represented by sets exclusively made up of 10 and 11 (before racial modifiers). Which, by the way, is a solid 15 point build.

Matthew
2007-04-22, 05:00 PM
Exactly. However, then we're back to calibrating our Dungeons & Dragons expectations. Mine sound like they accord with yours, but that doesn't mean they accord with Macrovore's.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-22, 05:04 PM
Well, then it just so happens that our calibration is also in accordance with the actual default power level assumptions laid out in the rule books. Those same power level assumptions that give way to naming conventions like "Elite Array."

Matthew
2007-04-22, 05:11 PM
And calculating CR... but all the same our expectations are not the only ones.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-22, 05:15 PM
But you should consider where a naming convention came from before desparaging it.

Matthew
2007-04-22, 05:16 PM
I quite agree, but then as game systems 'develop,' some words become obsolete.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-04-22, 06:21 PM
because point-buy sucks.
I prefer to give players an array of stats. 18, 18, 16, 14, 12, 10.Ah. Point buy sucks, so you point buy on behalf of your players. A stunning example of logic in action.

Point buy is base 8 for two reasons, as far as I can tell. The first is that characters should have weaknesses. This doesn't necessarily play out correctly because of class balance ("Charisma? Social skills? That's what Dominate Person is for."), but Point Buy creates a decent foundation for the idea. The second is that character shouldn't have totally ridiculous weaknesses. Consider how well point buy works, and how poorly point sell works. If scores started at 3, a large number of characters would never put points into Intelligence (Fighters, Paladins, probably Monks) and even more would never put points into Charisma. Those points would end up getting funneled into things that the character does care about, and you'd end up with ye olde 18 18 18 10 6 3 array.

Thus, starting lower is lame.

Macrovore
2007-04-22, 08:08 PM
Ah. Point buy sucks, so you point buy on behalf of your players. A stunning example of logic in action.

it sucks because, IMO, it is too low to create suitably heroic characters (at least in the eyes of me and my players). I also want the players to, generally, be at the same power level as each other(they don't quite get the wizard=batman thing, and they like damage spells, so casters and meleers are pretty balanced), so rolling is out. The array thing is the best of both worlds. they are very powerful characters fighting very powerful enemies. they like it, so i'm happy.

asqwasqw
2007-04-22, 08:17 PM
Am I the only one who likes point buy (Although array sounds good)? It allows you the most freedom and balance... But it is 8 because they want below average, but now low enough to nerf. Did you notice you can not get 7 from point buy alone? And the max is 18? There is a reason.

silvadel
2007-04-22, 08:19 PM
The thing is though -- that at least in my games -- I hold people to their stats. If you pick a 3 charisma you are likely going to look like quasimodo(if you just look homely then you really REALLY need to roleplay the horrid personality) and you are going to have a personality even worse -- and if you do not roleplay your 3 charisma well you will be losing exp right and left...

If you took 3 int, forest gump looks like a genius compared to you. Even an int of 5 or 6 puts you in the Gomer Pyle category. One reason I have difficulties playing a standard warrior type is that I do not enjoy having a character with an int below 12. It messes me up too much as my IQ is in the 160s and I do not like holding back my insights because my character could never solve the problems.

If you took 3 wisdom then your force of personality is nil. Not only are you guillible to the max but you cant resist temptation either. People tell you that it would be cool to jump off that bridge and you start running.

----

I do not mind people having a really low stat -- it makes for better roleplay. Restricting people to 8s in a well-run campaign is not a good thing.

<Str 8, Int 18, Wis 15, Dex 6, Con 10, Chr 7> Thats me -- and I either bought up dex from an original 4 or bought away a clumsy trait in addition to the 6 dex that I started with.

Talya
2007-04-22, 08:22 PM
it sucks because, IMO, it is too low to create suitably heroic characters (at least in the eyes of me and my players).

How is point buy "too low" for anything when you haven't heard what the point buy is yet? I'm playing a bard in one PbP campaign where the point buy is 50(!) points...there's no maximum you could set it at, but at a certain point it gets silly. (a point buy of 96 would have everyone at 18 everything.)

My ideal is a 40 point buy...which is too high for most, but I like the heroic feel.

martyboy74
2007-04-22, 08:24 PM
The thing is though -- that at least in my games -- I hold people to their stats. If you pick a 3 charisma you are likely going to look like quasimodo(if you just look homely then you really REALLY need to roleplay the horrid personality) and you are going to have a personality even worse -- and if you do not roleplay your 3 charisma well you will be losing exp right and left...
I think that looking totally average and not talking to anyone outside your party (ever) works well enough for that. Add ugliness as deemed necessary by your DM. If you're playing a 3 charisma, you obviously don't think that sociality is necessary in game.

Zagreen
2007-04-22, 08:24 PM
How is point buy too low? Just use more points. And/or change the point scale. The diminishing returns of the point buy scale encourage well-rounded stats, but if you want to encourage a mix of very high and very low stats just say that 1 point = +1 to any score regardless of how high it is. You'll see more 18s that way but you'll still see 8s too.

asqwasqw
2007-04-22, 08:25 PM
The thing is though -- that at least in my games -- I hold people to their stats. If you pick a 3 charisma you are likely going to look like quasimodo(if you just look homely then you really REALLY need to roleplay the horrid personality) and you are going to have a personality even worse -- and if you do not roleplay your 3 charisma well you will be losing exp right and left...

If you took 3 int, forest gump looks like a genius compared to you. Even an int of 5 or 6 puts you in the Gomer Pyle category. One reason I have difficulties playing a standard warrior type is that I do not enjoy having a character with an int below 12. It messes me up too much as my IQ is in the 160s and I do not like holding back my insights because my character could never solve the problems.

If you took 3 wisdom then your force of personality is nil. Not only are you guillible to the max but you cant resist temptation either. People tell you that it would be cool to jump off that bridge and you start running.

----

I do not mind people having a really low stat -- it makes for better roleplay. Restricting people to 8s in a well-run campaign is not a good thing.

<Str 8, Int 18, Wis 15, Dex 6, Con 10, Chr 7> Thats me -- and I either bought up dex from an original 4 or bought away a clumsy trait in addition to the 6 dex that I started with.

Yeah, fine if you can roleplay it. But it is too easy to make a fighter have 18 str, 18 dex, 18 con, and 4 wis, 4 int, 4 chr and be a stat munchkin.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-04-22, 08:25 PM
Am I the only one who likes point buy (Although array sounds good)?Certainly not. I'd wager it's about as popular as rolling (if not more so), with given arrays sliding in well behind that and just-pick-whatever in a distant fourth. Personally, I like starting with the elite array and giving players a few extra points on top of it; you get the decisions of point buy without catering totally to classes that only require one or two stats.

Macrovore
2007-04-22, 08:27 PM
How is point buy "too low" for anything when you haven't heard what the point buy is yet?

you're right. I do need to see the point buy to have an opinion of it. for me, 32 is kinda low, 36 is tolerable, 40 is pretty good. But since I'm usually the DM, and I like the simplicity of my nice array, we use it.

Sergeantbrother
2007-04-22, 08:30 PM
I always wondered why the minimum for a point buy wasn't a bit lower - maybe 4 or 6 perhaps. I mean, I figured that they wanted to prevent min-maxing with that. I see it as perfectly reasonable and even preferable to have some below average states for a character - even a heroic one.

Though, like Macrovore, I sometimes find the stanard point buy a bit weak - but I simply give characters more points to spend as a result. I generally just give characters 84 points to distribute, which leads to a 14 average.

Justin_Bacon
2007-04-22, 08:32 PM
Why is point-buy's starting score 8, when the average of 4d6, drop lowest (the standard random determining method) is 10-11 or higher?

Because the term "average" implies that there are results both below and above that value.


because point-buy sucks.
I prefer to give players an array of stats. 18, 18, 16, 14, 12, 10. I like high-powered games, and so do my players. It works really well for most builds, and it's really fun for my players to have nice, high-powered characters. of course, many powerful NPCs also have a similar array, so they're not getting it too easy.

I don't understand the connection you're trying to draw here. Neither standardized arrays or point-buy systems are inherently geared to either low-power or high-power game: It depends on the array and the number of points you use.

I can give you an array of 6, 8, 10, 10, 11, 11 and your character is going to suck. I can give you 40 points to spend and your character is going to kick ass.

(This applies to dice-rolling, too, although it's more variable: 4d6-drop-lowest is generally going to be better than 3d6 and generally worse than 5d6-drop-two-lowest.)


even though the "Elite Array" doesn't make very elite characters at all.

The Elite Array gives you the statistically typical results of the standard character generation method (if you round down). It's important to remember that the standard character generation method generates elite characters. The comparison is to the typical people in the campaign world, not to other PCs.

The standard point-buy system does the same thing: Gives you enough points to buy the Elite Array.

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

Dhavaer
2007-04-22, 08:36 PM
The point-buy I use varies, depending on what the game is and who the character is. D&D PCs get 32, Modern get 42 (although I'm considering starting a 28 or 32 point Modern game). Ordinary people get 15 (D&D) or 25 (Modern), other heroes get anything from 28 (slightly better than average) to 96 (deity incarnate).

Macrovore
2007-04-22, 08:47 PM
I don't understand the connection you're trying to draw here. Neither standardized arrays or point-buy systems are inherently geared to either low-power or high-power game: It depends on the array and the number of points you use.

I later corrected myself by saying that low point buy or arrays suck. I like playing high powered characters



The Elite Array gives you the statistically typical results of the standard character generation method (if you round down). It's important to remember that the standard character generation method generates elite characters. The comparison is to the typical people in the campaign world, not to other PCs.

The standard point-buy system does the same thing: Gives you enough points to buy the Elite Array.

I know. I (and my players) like high-powered games, so I give them high ability scores. And since the main enemies they fight are just as "elite" as they are (usually between 2 CRs below and 4 above, and enemies with class levels have similarly high ability arrays), they are still sufficiently challenged.

Lord Tataraus
2007-04-22, 08:53 PM
As a DM, I used to use a preset array, but I then realized that a point-buy was far superior. With an array, the only variation between players is where the 18s are. Also, with an array MAD characters are completely screwed. So, I switched to 32 and 28 point-buy (like prefer low-power) and I see a lot more variation and the players like it better.

Generic PC
2007-04-22, 09:21 PM
I find that, as a DM, if you just give a point buy, no one can cheat!! When you roll dice (4d6-drop lowest) i always find people who want one or two 18's. with a point buy i can help out newer players while making sure the 2 munchkins in the group dont cheat, but everyone still has fun making characters, unlike an Array where all you do is move numbers into boxes. My way, you get to experience and create character creation without being led by the hand, or seeming like a clone of another character. I usually point buy of about 40-46, but it varies depending on my mood and the campaign. some i love to make like 60ish point buy, some are the normal 25-30.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-22, 09:25 PM
If you had 6 as the lowest stat, rather than 8, how many points would you get back? 2?

Talya
2007-04-22, 09:26 PM
2 per ability score, 12 total, yes.

silvadel
2007-04-22, 10:46 PM
Yeah, fine if you can roleplay it. But it is too easy to make a fighter have 18 str, 18 dex, 18 con, and 4 wis, 4 int, 4 chr and be a stat munchkin.

Ooooh that character would be more a danger to his party than to the monsters... Not only would he stick his foot in his ear at every opportunity but he wouldnt have the intelligence or the wisdom to know better than do it at every opportunity. Sure he would obey anything the party asked him to do but he would forget what they asked him to do. He would probably have tons of tics and obviously wrong stuff he believed wholeheartedly.

One other danger of really low stats is having it go to 0 and incapacitating you. There are spells, poisons, etc that have the ability to drop a stat by 4 or more and 0 wisdom int or charisma and you are out of there.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-22, 10:50 PM
Yeah, fine if you can roleplay it. But it is too easy to make a fighter have 18 str, 18 dex, 18 con, and 4 wis, 4 int, 4 chr and be a stat munchkin.

He'd have abysmal will saves. Hello ego whip!

asqwasqw
2007-04-22, 11:23 PM
He'd have abysmal will saves. Hello ego whip!

Hello, fighters are screwed when it comes to will saves anyways...

And if you are not roleplaying, 4 int is only useful for the rolls, not the character. Some people will play a 4 int character the same way they would a 18 int character. Also, a animal has 4 int and you can train it, same things. You will not go beserk and kill your party...

Stephen_E
2007-04-22, 11:37 PM
Yeah, fine if you can roleplay it. But it is too easy to make a fighter have 18 str, 18 dex, 18 con, and 4 wis, 4 int, 4 chr and be a stat munchkin.

Basically you should only allow point buy to drop below 8 if either -
1) You can trust your players to roleplay the low stats, or
2) You're willing as a GM to enforce the playing of the stats.

When the Player with 4 Int, Will and Char suggests a smart plan tell him no one listens to him (low Charisma) and penalise him XP if people use the plan (telling him so). Have him run into the occasional Charm Person. Run him inot some Psionists (take 1d6 Cha damage - "You hit 0 Cha. You're catatonic"). The party is waiting to ambush someone. You're bored. Make a Will save or break cover because obviously no one's coming. If the player isn't doing foolish/stupid/uncharsimatic things, make them do such things on a failed save (and they're going to be failing those saves a lot). Sooner or later the player will either retire the PC for one with more balanced stats, or starting acting the doofus on his/her own without prompting, at which point you stop enforcing such behaviour. Make it clear to the player that so long as he's making a decent amount of doofus moves, including some at important occasions, he gets to control when not to be doofus. Be upfront about this.

As for costing below 8. I'd do it slightly better than 1=1. Really low stats do start to seriously bite when played as such.
7 = -1
6 = -3
5 = -5
4 = -8
3 = -11

or if you want to be meaner
7 = -1
6 = -2
5 = -4
4 = -6
3 = -9

If even the meaner one looks too generous, don't allow it. Your group clearly doesn't play low stats the way they deserve to be played if you don't think the extra points are worth the penalties really low stats inflict.

Stephen

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-04-23, 04:59 PM
Hello, fighters are screwed when it comes to will saves anyways...
No more so than Rogues, Barbarians, and Rangers. Well, if the Ranger actually cares about his spellcasting, he might bump his Wisdom up to 14. But it's still the Poor Save progression.


Also, a animal has 4 int and you can train it, same things.
Animals can't have an int above 2.


You will not go beserk and kill your party...
You will if someone casts the right spell upon you.


As for costing below 8. I'd do it slightly better than 1=1. Really low stats do start to seriously bite when played as such.
The rationale for doing a straight 1:1 trade is to discourage munchkinized min-maxing beyond what the simple "do start to seriously bite" penalty. Especially since some folks seem to not mind it when one of their stats "seriously bites" as long as they can get their über-PC.

Same reason Flaws have worse penalties than equivalent feats' bonuses.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-23, 05:06 PM
Hello, fighters are screwed when it comes to will saves anyways...

With 10 charisma, it will take about 5 unaugmented ego whips for the psion to knock him out.
With 3, it will take one or two.

Deepblue706
2007-04-23, 06:05 PM
It looks like this has been answered well enough, but I just felt like giving my input regardless:

8 is the base for Point-Buy because it is considered Below-Average. A weakness, but someone that doesn't seem that strange. All rolls 8-13 are well within human norms (or so it would appear to me). Beyond those bounds lie great strengths / weaknesses, and I believe it is to be assumed that scores lower than 7 would be too debilitating to work out in most circumstances. Like, how most with stats higher than 13 would certainly be attributes others would admire in a character.

As far as Elite Array goes, I think it's good for new players (especially a new DM). I prefer the rolling method, but I often set restrictions based on the limitations of point buy (reroll if the value would be greater than X, where X depends on the level of power etc). I'll probably never DM a game using strictly the point-buy method with values greater than 35 (from level 1, that is). I think using higher values deteriorates the PCs views of the strengths and weaknesses of not just characters, but of humanity, and distorts the image of the game I like to project to them.

Heroic fantasy is fun, but I try to make my players understand that like the famous people of our history, not all heroes are as "amazing" as remembered. Sometimes the deeds they do are not based on raw, inherent ability, but rather motivation, hard work, and a little "luck".

Latronis
2007-04-23, 06:38 PM
I run a point buy 28 points + 1d6 base 8, and i have drop an 8 to a 6 for an extra point.

With changes depending for power level.

Because i just hate dice rolls at creation, but i also dislike everyone being basically the same just with the numbers put in different boxes. And an 8 charisma is only below average, for example some people are just as charismatic as a stump. I feel allowing it go down to 6 is better for this, but its a terrible base to start, 8 is ideal because it allows below average stats.

Teilos
2007-04-24, 10:36 AM
Personally, I like starting with the elite array and giving players a few extra points on top of it; you get the decisions of point buy without catering totally to classes that only require one or two stats.

I thought about such a system and would like to know, which array you use, how many points you give and how much it costs to raise abilities?

I thought about a point buy using a given array in conjunction with a 25 points buy and costs depending on the amount you raise the specific attribute.
Raising costs 2 the first time, 3 the second time, 4 the third, ...
So raising an attribute by two costs 5 points. But it is independent of the original value of the attribute.

And the basic array could be: 15, 14, 12, 11, 9, 7

What do you think?

PS: Currently my players have to use a 32 point buy and that works quite well. It creates characters, which can meet the needs of all classes and prestigeclasses well. I just think that the values look a little bit boring now. Its almost always something like 16, 14, 14, 14, 10, 10 (ofc not in this order).

Dan_Hemmens
2007-04-24, 10:38 AM
No particular comment, I just want to say that when I saw this thread title, I thought I'd missed something really weird in point-buy, like the points costs had all been expressed in base eight or something.

Lord Tataraus
2007-04-24, 11:08 AM
No particular comment, I just want to say that when I saw this thread title, I thought I'd missed something really weird in point-buy, like the points costs had all been expressed in base eight or something.

So did I :smallbiggrin:

I was just wondering, what kind of stats do your players have with 40+ point-buy? It seems insane to me, I just lowered my normal point-buy to 28 from 32 because the players had some insane stats with 32 (in my mind at least). However, I must admit that I like lower power rather than higher so the PCs don't think that they are gods and have a sense of weakness.

Morgan_Scott82
2007-04-24, 03:06 PM
I generally DM at one of three point buy levels, 25, 28, or 30. I'm just getting ready to start a 30 point buy game soon and the scores I'm seeing just seem really high to me, I guess it betrays the fact that my D&D stat-o-meter was calabrated on early second edition 3d6 rolled in order stats.

Matthew
2007-04-24, 03:46 PM
It's a result of the 2:1 Attribute creep in D&D 3.5, as far as I can see, and the prevailance of Attribute increasing Magical Items. All the same, the assumption in D&D 3.x is something like 28 Point Buy, and it is with that in mind that 'Class Balance' (what little there is) and CR appear to have been calculated.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-24, 04:30 PM
So did I :smallbiggrin:

I was just wondering, what kind of stats do your players have with 40+ point-buy? It seems insane to me, I just lowered my normal point-buy to 28 from 32 because the players had some insane stats with 32 (in my mind at least). However, I must admit that I like lower power rather than higher so the PCs don't think that they are gods and have a sense of weakness.

The lower the point buy, the more you gimp non-casters.

Jayabalard
2007-04-24, 04:43 PM
it sucks because, IMO, it is too low to create suitably heroic characters (at least in the eyes of me and my players). If all of your heroism is coming from the attributes of the characters, then I feel kind of sorry for you.

They're just numbers; you can have "suitably heroic" characters with no stat above a 15.

Merlin the Tuna
2007-04-24, 05:52 PM
I thought about such a system and would like to know, which array you use, how many points you give and how much it costs to raise abilities?I haven't been able to use it a whole lot, but I start with the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), then give 3 more points to spend according to normal point buy rules, so it ends up at the equivalent of a 28 point buy. So you might end up with spreads like
16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8
15, 15, 14, 12, 10, 8
15, 14, 13, 13, 10, 10
15, 14, 14, 14, 10, 8And so on. I'm not totally happy with it, since that 13 will almost always get bumped up to a 14, but it's something, and it provides a reasonable point buy without giving casters the opportunity to say "18 in the stat I care about, whatever in the rest." It should also be noted that I use the following variation on the rules...
Treasure is reduced 10-15% and permanent ability score boosting items are banned. Instead, characters get a stat increase at every even level (instead of every four levels) and a feat at every odd level....so as a result, starting off with a few odd numbers isn't quite as troublesome. Still, any recommendations as to how I can improve this without just giving players a ton of extra points would be appreciated.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-04-24, 05:59 PM
I like 32 point with minimum ability scores of 10 (since 10.5 is average and you take negative penalties to the score below 10) before any racial modifiers or Fixed 10, 12, 13, 14, 14 and 16 which can be used to make a good character and potentially Great character (Most never take the option of converting the 14s to 11s to make the 16 an 18 although a few will occassionally go the 10/11 route dropping athe 13 and 14 for a single 18 and 14, 12, 11, 10 and 10). For rolled characters it is DM supervised ability score by ability score.

When you choose to roll Fate determines your abilities which usually determines the classes you would excel at but can make for a very interesting game.

I like to think the wizard PCs the physical weakling stereotype characters of the game are usually eating better than most of the commoners along with performing menial tasks and chores for their masters along with interacting with more people than a typical commoner who would have the more physically demanding lifestyle during their apprenticeships and rate an average ability or better Strength or Charisma ability score.

That is something you see pretty regularly in the game compared to the Con - 6 or Con 8 Wizard or Fighter.

Caelestion
2007-04-24, 07:15 PM
We tend to do 32-point-buy with party NPCs (cohorts etc.) on 28 pts. This works well enough and creates powerful characters who are either good all-rounders or who have distinct strengths.

Matthew
2007-04-24, 07:53 PM
I like to have Players roll, but I have minimums and maximums [i.e. at least a net +4 Modifier and at most a +12 Modifier] and allow point swapping on a 2:1 Basis [lower one Attribute by 2 Points to increase another by 1 Point to a maximum of 15 before Racial Modifiers]

Lord Tataraus
2007-04-25, 09:53 AM
As a DM I encourage some low stats so as to encourage roleplaying (it helps with my group). And Tor, we don't play casters much except for unoptimized ones and a horribly over-optimized wizard. Sure the wizard could do own the playetrs even though he later realized he could be doing the same stuff three levels ealier if he didn't "optimize".