Can demons that have been summoned by demons summon demons?

[ShadowfireOmega]

In one game I am playing another player was allowed to make a succubus warlock, now she was looking into summoning a vrock, then having that vrock summon another, and so on. Is this possible or does it work exactly like the summon monster spell?

[afroakuma]

In one game I am playing another player was allowed to make a succubus warlock, now she was looking into summoning a vrock, then having that vrock summon another, and so on. Is this possible or does it work exactly like the summon monster spell?

A summoned creature cannot use its own summoning ability. A called creature is able to.

[eggynack]

A summoned creature cannot use its own summoning ability. A called creature is able to.
Actually, the summon ability operates a bit differently. In particular, "A creature that has just been summoned cannot use its own summon ability for 1 hour." (SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#summon))

[CrazyYanmega]

And typically a summon only lasts an hour, so it regains its summoning ability the round it is returned to where it came from.

[Bad Wolf]

And typically a summon only lasts an hour, so it regains its summoning ability the round it is returned to where it came from.

What if it readies an action?

[afroakuma]

Actually, the summon ability operates a bit differently. In particular, "A creature that has just been summoned cannot use its own summon ability for 1 hour."

Ah yes, that's what I meant. My bad. :smallredface:


What if it readies an action?

Given that the summon ability is described as the summon monster spell, it requires 1 round to "cast" and cannot be readied.

[Andezzar]

It still does not work:
A creature with the summon ability can summon specific other creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell


A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities.

The designers really should decide whether this is supposed to be a summoning or a calling effect. On the one hand the creature has many disadvantages of summoned creatures. On the other hand the "summoner is beholden to the creatures he brings to himself. That only makes sense, if those creatures are actually removed from wherever they were and taken to the summoner as it happens with calling spells instead of merely being copied from a generic representative of their kind.

[eggynack]

It still does not work:

It works just fine, as I said. Even if the ability specifically said that it inherited the full text of summon monster, the specific rules of the summon ability would override that. But, at the same time, it does not even explicitly inherit the full text. As your underlining left out, the summon ability works, "Much as though casting a summon monster spell." This gives the ability leave to operate differently, even beyond the capacity of the rule of specific versus general. So, this works, albeit poorly and within the constraints of that one hour lag time.

[Chronos]

The rules are clear that it's a summoning effect, not a calling effect. The rules are also clear that summoned creatures, no matter how they're summoned, cannot summon or otherwise conjure any other creatures. Whether the ability works like the Summon Monster spells or not is irrelevant.

[eggynack]

The rules are clear that it's a summoning effect, not a calling effect. The rules are also clear that summoned creatures, no matter how they're summoned, cannot summon or otherwise conjure any other creatures. Whether the ability works like the Summon Monster spells or not is irrelevant.
The rules say you can do it. The type of effect is what's irrelevant. By the dictate of specific versus general, summoned creatures cannot summon anything, no matter how they're summoned, unless the specific summoning method says that they can.

[Chronos]

And the specified summoning method doesn't provide an exception here, so there's no conflict of specific vs. general, and they still can't.

[eggynack]

And the specified summoning method doesn't provide an exception here, so there's no conflict of specific vs. general, and they still can't.
It essentially does, even if it doesn't hold up to strict logic. In any case, as was noted, the hour delay on summoning matches up perfectly with the hour that the first summoning lasts, so in the absence of extending effects, it seems rather like a moot point. I suspect that this delay was intended to emulate the already existent block on summoned creatures summoning stuff, though that reads oddly like a calling effect.

[Chronos]

The hour delay actually adds an additional restriction. If Demon 1 summons Demon 2, and Demon 2 is killed/dismissed before the full hour's up, then Demon 2 back in the Abyss still has to wait before using his own summoning ability, even though he's not summoned any more. I'm not sure how often that would be relevant, but it's there.