(3.5 / PF) Symbol Spells Suck ... How can they be changed to be more popular?

[Miss Disaster]

The Symbol spells have been around D&D (and PF, for this discussion) forever. I'm guessing they go back all the way to 1st Edition. For a group of spells that have had such consistent endurance, staying power and designer/developer popularity ... they sure are an incredibly unpopular (player demographic-wise) group of spells in both 3.5 D&D and PF.

Don't get me wrong, I like the concept of these spells. They fill an important traditional fantasy trope and are thematically very cool & dramatic. Even the OotS cartoon has included Symbol Spells in its awesome comedy schtick. But when it comes to actual PC execution of getting these spells active in the game, the extremely onerous GP cost, long casting time and complex tactical nuances very rarely let them see the light of day on a gaming table.

And I gotta give credit to Paizo for their hopeful thinking ... they have approximately 20 Symbol spells to chose from. Way more than 3.5 ever published. Their Symbol of Mirroring spell actually caused a lot of rulesmongering amongst players who thought they've finally nabbed a decent, low-level, cost-effective Symbol spell. Sadly, the unique rules of *symbol attunement* made Symbol of Mirroring to not have the party-only benefit customization feature that was thought to be legally doable.

That all said, these spells are freakin' expensive, gold-wise. And they all take 10 minutes to cast. And they have potentially confusing rules-text (attunement issues, too many words to read, triggering complexities) for most players out there.

************

So how should these spells be tweaked in 3.5 & PF play so they become a more viable and popular suite of spells?

Yes, there are some of you who like and use these spells (hey, they are handy for off-camera casting in strongholds). But you, my friends, are in a minority. Let's get these cool spells modified a bit so they stay balanced yet they stay in the conversation as being above-average to very good spells.

[A_S]

I mean, the 3.5 ones read like the designers specifically wrote them to be as unusable as possible. Take a look at Symbol of Death.

"Okay, so this is a death effect as an 8th level spell. Sure, those already exist, but we feel like having another one is too good, so let's make the casting time 10 minutes to make sure nobody ever uses it in combat. Oh, but they might use it to effectively trap a location they're allowed to fortify, so let's make sure it can't kill anything that's actually a threat by giving it a HP limit. And a Fort negates save. Oh and let's build in some ways to avoid its effects too. Yeah, that looks good. Players will want to use this, right?"

If it were made more like, say, roughly the power level of Wail of the Banshee, but with a 10 minute cast time instead of a single action, it would at least see some play in the Explosive Runes genre of "cute/powerful tricks you can pull off if you have enough time to prepare."

-----

Most of the others are similarly awful; the penalties applied by Symbol of Pain are particularly insulting for a 5th level spell.

[Miss Disaster]

That's an additional good point, A_S. There's a problem with comparative performance/power levels of the Symbol spells with other spells of their same level. If you look at all of PF's Symbol spells, they are all at mid-to-high level (heavy on the higher levels, actually). I'd be curious to see some more Symbol spells in the 1st through 3rd level range to see how they match up with their quicker-casting similar-level counterparts.

[icefractal]

Well in Pathfinder, they're free if Blood Money is allowed, which gives them at least the niche use of trapping up your base during downtime. If you're allowed to put them on a mobile object, like a card (description is vague as to whether this works), and then show it to people, then they're awesome for stockpiling magical 'ammunition' between adventures.

[AvatarVecna]

As I've always understood it, the Symbol spells were defensive measures that were intended for villains with enough time and money to use them in their basic lair defenses. When your resources are "what the DM says goes", you can stack enough of them everywhere that saves and avoidance methods are almost completely irrelevant. Adventurers are generally (that is to say, assumed by default) to be invading other locations where the inhabitants have been entrenched; it's not too often that they're defending a location themselves.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Suggestion:


Symbol of Death
Necromancy [Death]
Level: Clr 8, Sor/Wiz 8
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: 0 ft.; see text
Effect: One symbol
Duration: Instantaneous (see text)
Saving Throw: None or fortitude negates (see text)
Spell Resistance: No

This spell allows you to scribe a potent rune of power upon a surface. As part of casting this spell, make a Spellcraft check. When triggered, a symbol of death slays one or more creatures within 60 feet of the symbol (treat as a burst) whose combined total current hit points do not exceed your caster level times your Spellcraft check. The symbol of death affects the closest creatures first, skipping creatures with too many hit points to affect. The creature that triggers the symbol of death does not get a saving throw to resist the effect. Once triggered, the symbol becomes active and glows, lasting for 10 minutes per caster level or until it has affected its maximum hit points’ worth of creatures, whichever comes first. Any creature that enters the area while the symbol of death is active is subject to its effect, whether or not that creature was in the area when it was triggered. A creature need save against the symbol only once as long as it remains within the area, though if it leaves the area and returns while the symbol is still active, it must save again.

Until it is triggered, the symbol of death is inactive (though visible and legible at a distance of 60 feet). To be effective, a symbol of death must always be placed in plain sight and in a prominent location. Covering the rune renders the symbol of death ineffective, unless a creature removes the covering, in which case the symbol of death works normally. It is possible to hide a symbol amongst other magical or non-magical writing, as long as it remains in plain sight.

[lots of words about trigger conditions here]

A triggered symbol of death that has become inactive can be repaired. Repairing an inactive symbol of death takes 10 minutes per caster level of the original symbol. As part of the repairing process, make a Spellcraft check. The DC is equal to the original Spellcraft check used to scribe the symbol. Failure indicates the repair fails, wasting time but carrying no further penalty. A successfully repaired symbol of death functions just as if it were freshly cast, at the original caster level and Spellcraft check result, but without using a spell slot.

A symbol of death is considered a magic item, albeit a temporary one; it can't dispelled, though it can be surpressed for 1d4 rounds by a successful dispel magic spell. An erase spell has no effect on a symbol of death. Destruction of the surface where a symbol of death is inscribed destroys the symbol but also triggers it. Symbol of death can be made permanent with a permanency spell. A permanent symbol of death that is disabled or that has affected its maximum number of hit points becomes inactive for 10 minutes, then can be triggered again as normal. A permanency spell used to make a permanent symbol of death has a duration of instantaneous; it can't be dispelled, but it can be surpressed just like symbol of death can be.

[stuff about trapfinding here]

Material Component: Mercury and phosphorus, plus powdered diamond and opal with a total value of at least 5,000 gp each.


Too weak, too good, too complicated?

[ace rooster]

I mean, the 3.5 ones read like the designers specifically wrote them to be as unusable as possible. Take a look at Symbol of Death.

"Okay, so this is a death effect as an 8th level spell. Sure, those already exist, but we feel like having another one is too good, so let's make the casting time 10 minutes to make sure nobody ever uses it in combat. Oh, but they might use it to effectively trap a location they're allowed to fortify, so let's make sure it can't kill anything that's actually a threat by giving it a HP limit. And a Fort negates save. Oh and let's build in some ways to avoid its effects too. Yeah, that looks good. Players will want to use this, right?"

If it were made more like, say, roughly the power level of Wail of the Banshee, but with a 10 minute cast time instead of a single action, it would at least see some play in the Explosive Runes genre of "cute/powerful tricks you can pull off if you have enough time to prepare."

-----

Most of the others are similarly awful; the penalties applied by Symbol of Pain are particularly insulting for a 5th level spell.


Not everything has high hit points. A symbol of death has a chance to kill a CR16 planetar, which is not bad. Casters in particular will mostly fall in this catagory, while also having poor fort saves. Death ward stops it killing you immediately, but if your death ward should drop for any reason for an instant then the symbol might kill you with no action on anybody else's part. Even if you make your save there is no guarentee that you won't have to make another, which is true of very few other spells.

The casting time and the cost look far less daunting when you compare it to a scroll, with the benefits being similar. The scroll costs a little less but can only be used by a caster. The save DC is probably considerably higher on the symbol. The important point about both is that they do not need to use a spell slot on the day they are used. In terms of action economy it actually works out better than most spell uses, because unfurling a banner can be done by anyone. It is also less likely to be a waste, because if it doesn't work then it is not expended. You can just carry your death rug into the next encounter.

A symbol of sleep is not hugely effective against powerful foes, but if you put it on a banner at the front of an undead army it becomes mighty. Mooks cannot stop it.

The symbol of pain is strange. Yes the penalty is small, but it is untyped. Carry it around with you and it can apply to a huge number of enemies. What other item exists that imposes a -4 penalty to anyone who fails a high fort save for 90 mins and costs 1000gp? Your allies are immune.

The effects of the symbol spells are difficult to judge against other spells because they tend to have very wide weak effects. Most other spells have a very focused powerful effect. They can also be stockpiled, unlike most spell effects, which makes the setting effects of them much more impressive.

The trick is to stop thinking about them as spells, and start thinking about them as items.

[Hawkstar]

A symbol of sleep is not hugely effective against powerful foes, but if you put it on a banner at the front of an undead army it becomes mighty. Mooks cannot stop it.
Terrible example. Undead are immune.

[Lurkmoar]

Terrible example. Undead are immune.

I think he meant that the Undead would have the Symbol of Sleep as their banner, allowing them to roflstomp regular armies. Or were you being sarcastic and I totally missed it? >_>

[Zanos]

As I've always understood it, the Symbol spells were defensive measures that were intended for villains with enough time and money to use them in their basic lair defenses. When your resources are "what the DM says goes", you can stack enough of them everywhere that saves and avoidance methods are almost completely irrelevant. Adventurers are generally (that is to say, assumed by default) to be invading other locations where the inhabitants have been entrenched; it's not too often that they're defending a location themselves.
This is pretty much my view as well. The symbol spells are designed with the intent to defend a location. I personally frown upon attempts by players to use them offensively(like Xykons symbol of insanity bouncy ball, or at will aoe mirror images)

They could stand to be a bit cheaper, but I think they're fine in their niche of basically creating a magical trap.

[Jack_Simth]

They can be made useful, but the tactics to do so are (generally speaking) too optimized for most tables.

Take, oh, the Symbol of Persuasion in Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/symbol-of-persuasion) or D&D 3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPersuasion.htm).
That's a 60-foot radius Charm Monster that lasts 1 hour/level (and affects everything within range for 10 minutes/level once actvated).
You put it on a tower shield (to fit the "must always be placed in plain sight and in a prominent location" requirement), trigger condition "The person holding the shield says 'Please do not hurt my friend'".
You then hand it to your party's meatshield (or the healbot, but if you've got an actual cleric the tinderbox shouldn't waste the spell known). You do NOT attune the meatshield to the effect (it's usually a good idea to drop a Mind Blank on the meatshield, but then, that's usually a good idea anyway).
The next time a horde of susceptible mooks swarms the party, the meatshield says the line as a free action.

Note that for most practical purposes, it doesn't matter if the meatshield beats the save or not. If you're not already considered a good friend by the meatshield, you're doing something wrong (If you do this with Insanity, Stunning, or Sleep, then you DEFINITELY want to Mind Blank the meatshield - but still do not attune the meatshield).

Is the one-time effect of ending an encounter full of mooks (and given the duration, it's also likely to have an impact on the next few encounters, having a reasonable chance of Charming any appropriate creature that comes in range while it persists) worth the 5k in components? Note that even if some of the mooks make the save, the OTHERS will intervene to prevent them from hurting their good friend (nonlethally, generally, but still).

Suppose you find a way to cheat past the material components. Like, say, you're a Pathfinder Wizard with a strength score of 12 (or higher) after some buffing (like, say, 8 base strength, -2 racial, +2 from Alter Self into a human, +4 from casting Bull's Strength). Cast Blood Money for the 5k in components, cast the spell, have your healbot cast a few Lesser Restoration spells on you to fix the 11 points of strength damage. Now is that effect worth a few spell slots in down-time? That's all you lost to give the meatshield a free-action Will save or lose in a huge area.

[Venger]

isn't... isn't that how everyone uses the symbol spells?

for extra fun, make it an animated shield, so your brute can pick off stragglers with a weapon.

[Jack_Simth]

isn't... isn't that how everyone uses the symbol spells?
A 60-foot radius Will save or lose that sticks with you through multiple encounters is a higher level of optimization than most gaming tables expect. It's also not how they seem to be intended to be used.

[Venger]

A 60-foot radius Will save or lose that sticks with you through multiple encounters is a higher level of optimization than most gaming tables expect. It's also not how they seem to be intended to be used.

well, since you're paying 5k for it, it'd better last a couple combats. they don't seem intended to really do anything, as we've discussed.

[ace rooster]

well, since you're paying 5k for it, it'd better last a couple combats. they don't seem intended to really do anything, as we've discussed.

Find me another item that is as effective against an army as the symbols. A wand of fireball comes close but is radically different in function. Standard traps are considerably more expensive. 3k gp + xp + 4days for a single casting of summon monster 6.

Secondly, a CR 13 encounter should award 13k. You can't throw 5k around like candy, but it is not a lot of money for an adventurer. If you are expecting an army to try to march down a corridor tomorrow it can be well worth it.

Thirdly, that 5k is fixed. Unlike other items you do not get a standard symbol for that amount. You can get a basic symbol cast by a level 15 int 18 wizard, or you could get an extended twinned version cast by an int 40 necromancer.


The symbols are great against large numbers of mooks. DMs don't use that sort of encounter because the system is not able to handle them easily. The system artificially skewing encounters away from the situations that these spells excel at is not the fault of the spells though. PCs regularly attack goblin villages, but when was the last time anyone fought more than 20 goblins at a time? How often do PCs have to lead the defence of a town against 10,000 orcs? For the symbols to be more popular just requires the situations that they are appropriate to come up more. That requires the DM to be a little more creative with encounters than most are (not dissing, it is hard to do), particularly involving large scale defensive engagements.

Compare the difference between 300 low level warriors defending a gatehouse (while the PCs are in another part of the battle) to 300 warriors and a symbol of sleep. That is 1000gp well spent, assuming that it even comes out of the PC's budget.

[ericgrau]

They don't suck they're just not very mobile without cheesy tricks, and immobility is what every adventurer hates. They're uber scary in the hands of a DM. They don't just tag 1 PC, they can tag the whole party if they're not careful, and possibly repeatedly on the same PC. A symbol of sleep followed by an otherwise easy encounter made of monsters attuned to it can be devastating.

If you buff them to be mobile then you may as well have a regular non-symbol spell like a high level sleep or a circle of death. Then that's pointless. If you buff them to be stronger or cheaper yet still immobile, then they're already major trouble for PCs and you run the risk of TPK.

[Quiet Wizard]

One thing that nobody is mentioning is how extremely easy & cheap it is to basically *cover* or view-impair a symbol spell (on a banner, tower shield, etc.) with a relatively low-level series of spells. Like Darkness spells, fog/cloud spells, wall spells, etc. You just can't assume that the banner gets unfurled and a massive mook army will just all start gawking at the symbol. Mook armies with any semblance of low-level magic support and reasonable tactical acumen will likely have battlefield control spells (like the ones I mentioned above) that will mitigate the effectiveness of Symbols.

So put my vote into the hat that says that Symbol spells have niche and nuanced tactical uses. But they sure as hell aren't anywhere near being worth their obnoxious and unrealistic gold piece cost. There's much better and more cost-effective options that give a lot more precise tactical control into the hands of the spellcaster.

[Jack_Simth]

One thing that nobody is mentioning is how extremely easy & cheap it is to basically *cover* or view-impair a symbol spell (on a banner, tower shield, etc.) with a relatively low-level series of spells. Like Darkness spells, fog/cloud spells, wall spells, etc. You just can't assume that the banner gets unfurled and a massive mook army will just all start gawking at the symbol.
Historically, banners were used to identify individual units. So yes, everyone was gawking at them.

But then, you don't need to rely on the opposition to set them off. Just make sure to have a mook of your own, who is immune to the symbol but not attuned to the symbol, set it off deliberately. That was, in fact, deliberately done with the scenario I painted - that of the symbol on the meatshield's shield.

Mook armies with any semblance of low-level magic support and reasonable tactical acumen will likely have battlefield control spells (like the ones I mentioned above) that will mitigate the effectiveness of Symbols.
Easily solved. Mix a bunch of mundane banners in, Magic Aura them up to look like the real thing. When it's difficult to tell which one is which, they're going to have to hit them all. Additionally, with a deliberate trigger method, If your opposition is spending their daily resources on preventing the Symbols from going off, that means *your* daily resources can be used on more useful things... and you can just not trigger the ones they neutralized, and use those in the *next* battle.

[Venger]

Find me another item that is as effective against an army as the symbols. A wand of fireball comes close but is radically different in function. Standard traps are considerably more expensive. 3k gp + xp + 4days for a single casting of summon monster 6.

do you have any idea how many scrolls or wands you can buy for 5k? a lot. it would be trivial to equal or exceed the utility gained by burning your money on a symbol spell.


Secondly, a CR 13 encounter should award 13k. You can't throw 5k around like candy, but it is not a lot of money for an adventurer. If you are expecting an army to try to march down a corridor tomorrow it can be well worth it.
no, you can't throw 5k around like candy. that's entirely my point. I'm saying "symbol spells aren't cheap, so if a player wants to waste his money using one, he's entitled to it actually being able to do something.


Thirdly, that 5k is fixed. Unlike other items you do not get a standard symbol for that amount. You can get a basic symbol cast by a level 15 int 18 wizard, or you could get an extended twinned version cast by an int 40 necromancer.
if you just let your players find a hireling incantatrix to do this for them, then it's kind of your own fault. it's like disallowing necropolitan because "a player could just say he was crucimigrated by a dread necro with all those undead boosting feats" it's a strawman. I never said "by the way, assume some kind of really juiced version of the symbol spell"



The symbols are great against large numbers of mooks. DMs don't use that sort of encounter because the system is not able to handle them easily. The system artificially skewing encounters away from the situations that these spells excel at is not the fault of the spells though. PCs regularly attack goblin villages, but when was the last time anyone fought more than 20 goblins at a time? How often do PCs have to lead the defence of a town against 10,000 orcs? For the symbols to be more popular just requires the situations that they are appropriate to come up more. That requires the DM to be a little more creative with encounters than most are (not dissing, it is hard to do), particularly involving large scale defensive engagements.

they're not only useful against "mooks."

besides, having a party fight multiple lower level foes rather than a single one of equivalent CR is just basic competent encounter design. no matter how bad you make your boss character, it's very hard for him to deal with getting out-actioned. I'm not talking about thousands of orcs in a helm's deep type scenario, but more like fighting half a dozen vrocks instead of a single pit fiend or similar. they're also useful because they can last through more than one encounter.


Compare the difference between 300 low level warriors defending a gatehouse (while the PCs are in another part of the battle) to 300 warriors and a symbol of sleep. That is 1000gp well spent, assuming that it even comes out of the PC's budget.
neither I nor anyone else said anything about these unmanageable hordes of NPCs, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. yeah, D&D doesn't simulate fights with hundreds of guys well, o nobody's suggeting you do that.

yeah, in that hypothetical scenario no one's ever going to run into, a symbol would be a good expenditure. are you saying that's a reason it should be disallowed?

[ace rooster]

do you have any idea how many scrolls or wands you can buy for 5k? a lot. it would be trivial to equal or exceed the utility gained by burning your money on a symbol spell.

1 and a half for level 8 spells, at DC 22. Getting a DC 25+ save or suck 60' burst is pretty tricky to beat with items. You need to be looking at staffs, and those are crazy expensive as well as using your action economy.



no, you can't throw 5k around like candy. that's entirely my point. I'm saying "symbol spells aren't cheap, so if a player wants to waste his money using one, he's entitled to it actually being able to do something.


If a player wants to use something badly then that is up to them. Dropping the price because players are not getting full value from it is unnecissary IMO.



if you just let your players find a hireling incantatrix to do this for them, then it's kind of your own fault. it's like disallowing necropolitan because "a player could just say he was crucimigrated by a dread necro with all those undead boosting feats" it's a strawman. I never said "by the way, assume some kind of really juiced version of the symbol spell"


Who said anything about hirelings? The party wizard or cleric doesn't even need a feat to make them, will probably have boosted their casting stat to the roof, and has metamagic rods as a solid investment anyway. Likewise if you are attacking the lair of a power evil necromancer then powerful necromancy spells are not going to be out of place. Standard juice is quite scary enough when compared to items that get no juice at all.




they're not only useful against "mooks."

besides, having a party fight multiple lower level foes rather than a single one of equivalent CR is just basic competent encounter design. no matter how bad you make your boss character, it's very hard for him to deal with getting out-actioned. I'm not talking about thousands of orcs in a helm's deep type scenario, but more like fighting half a dozen vrocks instead of a single pit fiend or similar. they're also useful because they can last through more than one encounter.

I never said that they were only useful against mooks, just that they are more effective against mooks, and the mookier the better. :smallbiggrin:



neither I nor anyone else said anything about these unmanageable hordes of NPCs, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. yeah, D&D doesn't simulate fights with hundreds of guys well, o nobody's suggeting you do that.

yeah, in that hypothetical scenario no one's ever going to run into, a symbol would be a good expenditure. are you saying that's a reason it should be disallowed?

Do wars not happen in D and D land? Even if the PCs never encounter them these sorts of scenarios exist in universe, meaning that defences will be designed to handle them. My point was that even as written the symbol spells are very effective at dealing with swarms of attackers, so they should be fairly common, as enemies do not only have to worry about PCs.

The symbol spells are some of the few spells that can have a large impact on a battle even without the PCs being present, which is important because large battles can occur when the PCs are not present, due to the DM being able to handwave most of it. Did that make sense?

Clearer version:
Orcs attack town. DM can't be bothered running the battle around the PCs, so diverts them toward getting a macguffin. PCs spend an hour before leaving dropping symbol spells at the gates and the catacombs. When the PCs return with said macguffin the orcs have been held to the outer walls instead of outside the keep as originally planned by the DM. Macguffin makes remaining orcs flee. xp bonus for saving many lives, and the town covers the cost of the symbols. :smallsmile:plus, you know, saving many lives, but nobody actually cares about that.

[Venger]

1 and a half for level 8 spells, at DC 22. Getting a DC 25+ save or suck 60' burst is pretty tricky to beat with items. You need to be looking at staffs, and those are crazy expensive as well as using your action economy.

If a player wants to use something badly then that is up to them. Dropping the price because players are not getting full value from it is unnecissary IMO.

who said anything about dropping the price? my point was that the utility gained from spending 5k on a symbol is not meaningfully greater than other stuff you could buy for that amount of money.


Who said anything about hirelings? The party wizard or cleric doesn't even need a feat to make them, will probably have boosted their casting stat to the roof, and has metamagic rods as a solid investment anyway. Likewise if you are attacking the lair of a power evil necromancer then powerful necromancy spells are not going to be out of place. Standard juice is quite scary enough when compared to items that get no juice at all.

you did. I'm assuming in your example that the wizard with extended twinned symbol of foo and a 40 int wasn't a PC, but was an NPC who they would hire to cast the spl for them, or if no one in the party could cast the spell.


I never said that they were only useful against mooks, just that they are more effective against mooks, and the mookier the better. :smallbiggrin:
fair enough



Do wars not happen in D and D land? Even if the PCs never encounter them these sorts of scenarios exist in universe, meaning that defences will be designed to handle them. My point was that even as written the symbol spells are very effective at dealing with swarms of attackers, so they should be fairly common, as enemies do not only have to worry about PCs.

I never said they didn't. it' generally acknowledged that the system is a poor sim for large-scale combat though, so it's a better idea when doing a helm's deep type scenario to say in the background there's hordes, the PCs fight some shock troops or whatever.

okay, so they may exist in the setting, but they will often not be used by the PCs, which is the whole point of the thread.


The symbol spells are some of the few spells that can have a large impact on a battle even without the PCs being present, which is important because large battles can occur when the PCs are not present, due to the DM being able to handwave most of it. Did that make sense?

sure. if for whatever reason your dm wanted to throw, as you mentioned earlier, 200 lvl 2 or 3 warriors at you (assuming you could still reap xp somehow) then he'd just mass roll their saves and say "okay, so x% of them succumb, reap that much experience and you have to deal with the remaining ones 10 or so at a time" so that the map doesn't get too crowded and the players don't wait fifteen minutes each turn while the dm adjudicates stuff.

my point was that scenarios like this aren't that common in the game because you want the party to be active most of the time, not just say "yeah you killed some monsters offscreen, good job"


Clearer version:
Orcs attack town. DM can't be bothered running the battle around the PCs, so diverts them toward getting a macguffin. PCs spend an hour before leaving dropping symbol spells at the gates and the catacombs. When the PCs return with said macguffin the orcs have been held to the outer walls instead of outside the keep as originally planned by the DM. Macguffin makes remaining orcs flee. xp bonus for saving many lives, and the town covers the cost of the symbols. :smallsmile:plus, you know, saving many lives, but nobody actually cares about that.
sure, that sounds fine as far as game balance/story goes, but I don't know how much fun it would be as opposed to toting the symbol around with you on your tower shield, since that makes you feel more active, perseus swingin' a gorgon head.

[Jack_Simth]

do you have any idea how many scrolls or wands you can buy for 5k? a lot. it would be trivial to equal or exceed the utility gained by burning your money on a symbol spell. Utility, maybe. Combat effectiveness, not so much.

Scroll DCs are just 10 + 1.5* spell level (round down). That 8th level spell scroll that costs 3,000 gp market has a save DC of just 22, and can be used exactly once. Meanwhile, the Symbol of Persuasion (5,000 gp components) from the party Caster-15 probably has a save DC of 24 or better (18 base stat, +6 Periapt/Headband, +3 level up = casting stat of 27, +8 modifier; 6th level spell; (Greater) Spell Focus, Heighten Spell, and Tomes can increase that, but DC 24 is the expectation). While yes, it's much more effective against groups of weaker opponents... those are fairly common. I just used one online generator (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/dungeon/index.cgi) for a random 15th level dungeon.

Counting creatures in it (at least, the one I got; your mileage may very, of course, as it's a random generator):
10 Destrachan (Will +10)
4 ropers (Will +8)
30 Morghs (mind-affecting immunity)
4 Cleric-10 mummy lords (mind-affecting immunity)
10 mummies (mind-affecting immunity)
10 Elder Black Puddings (mind-affecting immunity)
7 dread wraiths (mind-affecting immunity)
14 wraiths (mind-affecting immunity)
2 Purple Worms (Will +4)
14 Spectres (mind-affecting immunity)
1 Adult Silver Dragon (SR 22, Will +18)

Of 106 total monsters in that specific random dungeon vs. the Symbol of Persuasion:
2 almost always succumb (need a 20 to beat the save)
4 are extremely likely to succumb (needs a 16 or better)
10 are reasonably likely to succumb (needs a 14 or better)
1 will likely laugh it off (Needs a 6 on the Will save, and has enough SR that there's a modest chance of ignoring it anyway)
The rest are flat-out immune (mind-affecting immunity)

Now, 17 out of 106 isn't exactly a stellar score... but both Purple Worms were in the same encounter, all ten Destrachan were in the same encounter, all four ropers were in the same encounter, and the dragon is an encounter unto itself. Six sets of wandering monsters, ten rooms with monsters, the one Symbol spell can pretty much end three of the 16 encounters on that random map. Depending on how quickly you're going, cast once, that one symbol will end all three of the highly susceptible encounters. A little more likely is that the meatshield will choose to set off the Symbol of Persuasion on the first encounter where it's useful (as told via a codeword from the party tinderbox), and it'll hit maybe one more encounter where it's useful. Is ending two encounters of sixteen in one dungeon worth 5k and a spell slot during down-time?

[Venger]

(maths)

but... I was on your side :smalltongue:

my point was that it's not overpowered for 5kgp, and that encounters made of multiple weaker opponents rather than one boss are indeed more common, so it's a useful tool.

given the amount of resources you save by not expending any slots during those encounters, you're effectively "buying" them with the 5k you spent, so probably.

as you said, your generator happened to give you a lot of immune enemies, so in the wild, you'll probably run into more guys you can pick on.

so yes, I agree, excellent job backing it up with facts.

[Miss Disaster]

I'd be curious what everyone's opinion is on the most arguably popular Symbol spell ... Symbol of Mirroring. Which is Pathfinder-only. But still easily ported over to 3.5 play.

There's lots of interesting articles on it via searches at Paizo and other forums. Primarily because of its attunement issues. But it is cheap, a low-level cast, and easy to implement within a typical adventuring group.

[Venger]

I'd be curious what everyone's opinion is on the most arguably popular Symbol spell ... Symbol of Mirroring. Which is Pathfinder-only. But still easily ported over to 3.5 play.

There's lots of interesting articles on it via searches at Paizo and other forums. Primarily because of its attunement issues. But it is cheap, a low-level cast, and easy to implement within a typical adventuring group.

what a ridiculous spell. spend 5k to buff the hell out of your enemies. I'd give it a pass

[Jack_Simth]

I'd be curious what everyone's opinion is on the most arguably popular Symbol spell ... Symbol of Mirroring. Which is Pathfinder-only. But still easily ported over to 3.5 play.

There's lots of interesting articles on it via searches at Paizo and other forums. Primarily because of its attunement issues. But it is cheap, a low-level cast, and easy to implement within a typical adventuring group.

Let's make an assumption about what 'not affected' means in the case of a Symbol of Mirroring:
Everyone gets mirrored, regardless of attunement. However: the attuned don't see the mirror images, only the real people.

Does that make it a useful spell again?