Cleric of Blasphemy

[Xuldarinar]

Clerics (as well as inquisitors and warpriests) can dedicate themselves to, in place of a deity, a concept. So, from the standpoint of crunch and fluff, how would one create a cleric devoted to blasphemy itself? A cleric who is reverent of irreverence. What about an inquisitor of the same, or a warpriest?

[Mystral]

Clerics (as well as inquisitors and warpriests) can dedicate themselves to, in place of a deity, a concept. So, from the standpoint of crunch and fluff, how would one create a cleric devoted to blasphemy itself? A cleric who is reverent of irreverence. What about an inquisitor of the same, or a warpriest?

Sounds like madness domain.

[AvatarVecna]

Clerics (as well as inquisitors and warpriests) can dedicate themselves to, in place of a deity, a concept. So, from the standpoint of crunch and fluff, how would one create a cleric devoted to blasphemy itself? A cleric who is reverent of irreverence. What about an inquisitor of the same, or a warpriest?

Pretend to worship the party wizard ("he's a wizard, he's halfway to godhood already anyway"); you want to really ham it up, while also using it as an excuse to mock standard religious practices. If you're doing it right, the wizard should try to kill you before your second adventure is over, and you can build a different, more serious version of this character. Like, say, an Ur-Priest build.

EDIT: Just saw the PF tag, so Ur-Priest is a no-go. Maybe the Sorcerer archetype False Priest?

[Xuldarinar]

Sounds like madness domain.
I suppose it does.


Pretend to worship the party wizard ("he's a wizard, he's halfway to godhood already anyway"); you want to really ham it up, while also using it as an excuse to mock standard religious practices. If you're doing it right, the wizard should try to kill you before your second adventure is over, and you can build a different, more serious version of this character. Like, say, an Ur-Priest build.

EDIT: Just saw the PF tag, so Ur-Priest is a no-go. Maybe the Sorcerer archetype False Priest?


Not a bad idea all in all. As far as Ur-priest or False Priest, both certainly are intriguing options. The former I have brought into pathfinder (as an alternative class), so that isn't a no-go. Either could be used easily for someone seeking to mock religion while using its tools, but I am more focused on someone who worships irreverence itself. Not just mocks religion, but exalts their irreverence such they draw power from it.

Edit: Though perhaps, they know/believe something that the deities wouldn't want to be known and the churches to most/all religions would proclaim as heresy.. They cling to that truth, and it becomes the object of their devotion.

[Hrugner]

Rather than revering the gods, you play them against each other. The gods give you boons in turn as a reward for causing the faith in other gods to tumble. Rather than gaining power through piety and service, the gods essentially bribe you into leaving their faithful alone and attacking others.

In line with but slightly different from the wizard worship idea, you could adopt a faith where you believe the gods are nothing more than powerful and deceitful wizard's with the power to grant power to their servants. The belief hinges on the idea that the gods are all phony, that everyone is being duped, and they probably haven't been around all that long and simply use powerful magic to trick people into believing otherwise. In this case you'd get spells from gods who rather like to keep secrets and would prefer to be disbelieved.

[Molosse]

Easy enough, worship the Asura or more particularly have your DM agree that your powers come from an Asurendra Asura who happens to be a Blasphemous Sage of Sacrilege.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/asura/asura-asurendra

[Xuldarinar]

Rather than revering the gods, you play them against each other. The gods give you boons in turn as a reward for causing the faith in other gods to tumble. Rather than gaining power through piety and service, the gods essentially bribe you into leaving their faithful alone and attacking others.

In line with but slightly different from the wizard worship idea, you could adopt a faith where you believe the gods are nothing more than powerful and deceitful wizard's with the power to grant power to their servants. The belief hinges on the idea that the gods are all phony, that everyone is being duped, and they probably haven't been around all that long and simply use powerful magic to trick people into believing otherwise. In this case you'd get spells from gods who rather like to keep secrets and would prefer to be disbelieved.

Both very intriguing ideas... Though I am sure the former would be such someone would consider wiping them out to save themselves some trouble. The latter reminds me of something out of 3e or 3.5... A prestige class that belongs to some religion that believes something not dissimilar to that.





On a side note, a question of speculation: If blasphemy magic (magic derived from blasphemy itself or through something blasphemous in nature) was a thing, like arcane magic and divine magic are, I wonder what would have it set apart in terms of its qualities. Arcane is restricted by ASF, divine by morality, and both have spells not used by the other.


Edit:

Easy enough, worship the Asura or more particularly have your DM agree that your powers come from an Asurendra Asura who happens to be a Blasphemous Sage of Sacrilege.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/asura/asura-asurendra

Though worship of an entity is something I'd want to work around, the Asura certainly are an option. A very good one at that.

[Spore]

Your powers have to come from somewhere. And I preferred your character to get his powers from leeching it off other gods and shrines rather than some random CR 20 monster. Domains would be Evil and Undeath but let me explain. Your daily prayers contains of a litany of every known god followed by spitting into the face of nature itself. Naturally that concept is very arrogant and makes up for a lot of enemies.

For the domains and the general purpose I have a very classical theme in mind: Necromancer cleric. The undeath domain and your focus on it gives you power over the monstrosities that bloom in desecrated places: the undead. The evil domain lets you protect those things versus good heroes trying to stop you (and gives you the touch of corruption which lets anyone count as evil for the purposes of your spells).

You do what the character expects you mechanically to do:
- You desecrate EVERYTHING.
- You raise your enemies as undead minions to let them suffer greater indignity in your service.
- You are a paragon of evil, without serving any major evil deity. You are like evil-start-up. You're the highest ranking member in your cult, always.
- If you roleplay your charisma/diplomacy well, you should have a following of necromantic acolytes by 7th level (when you start pulling up with Skeleton Ogres or Fast Zombie Rocs).

Problems:
- Good parties don't play along well. Paladins are especially prone to that.
- This may too open and not subtle enough for your DM that you have to fight authorities (mainly of good churches when they see their first guard captains walking around town as shambling zombies).
- Unless your group is okay with you and give you backup during those attacks, it isn't really playable.

[Seto]

I'd say that being some kind of demon thrall could work fine. Basically, your average Demon is by definition spitting in the face of all that is holy, and has no respect for anything (only fear, occasionally). This is the kind of attitude that seems to fit.

[Xuldarinar]

Your powers have to come from somewhere. And I preferred your character to get his powers from leeching it off other gods and shrines rather than some random CR 20 monster. Domains would be Evil and Undeath but let me explain. Your daily prayers contains of a litany of every known god followed by spitting into the face of nature itself. Naturally that concept is very arrogant and makes up for a lot of enemies.

For the domains and the general purpose I have a very classical theme in mind: Necromancer cleric. The undeath domain and your focus on it gives you power over the monstrosities that bloom in desecrated places: the undead. The evil domain lets you protect those things versus good heroes trying to stop you (and gives you the touch of corruption which lets anyone count as evil for the purposes of your spells).

You do what the character expects you mechanically to do:
- You desecrate EVERYTHING.
- You raise your enemies as undead minions to let them suffer greater indignity in your service.
- You are a paragon of evil, without serving any major evil deity. You are like evil-start-up. You're the highest ranking member in your cult, always.
- If you roleplay your charisma/diplomacy well, you should have a following of necromantic acolytes by 7th level (when you start pulling up with Skeleton Ogres or Fast Zombie Rocs).

Problems:
- Good parties don't play along well. Paladins are especially prone to that.
- This may too open and not subtle enough for your DM that you have to fight authorities (mainly of good churches when they see their first guard captains walking around town as shambling zombies).
- Unless your group is okay with you and give you backup during those attacks, it isn't really playable.

Though I prefer a touch of subtlety, this isn't bad at all. A bit "bwahahaha" to my tastes, and the leaching from gods certainly puts forwards some ur-priest flavor, but there is a charm to it.



I'd say that being some kind of demon thrall could work fine. Basically, your average Demon is by definition spitting in the face of all that is holy, and has no respect for anything (only fear, occasionally). This is the kind of attitude that seems to fit.

That it could, but theres something I want to address here.

"Spitting in the face of all that is holy," only covers a fraction of divinity. They see wanton destruction and corruption, and their existence isn't natural but was something created.. do they really stand against all that is divine?

And another thing, does blasphemy need to be evil?

[Seto]

"Spitting in the face of all that is holy," only covers a fraction of divinity. They see wanton destruction and corruption, and their existence isn't natural but was something created.. do they really stand against all that is divine?

And another thing, does blasphemy need to be evil?

Created not by any God, but spit out by the Abyss. Sure, they're not inherently atheist, some of them are Planar Allies to CE Clerics. But you know, I asked myself that same question when I first answered this thread. First (and it played a minor part in my answer), I was impressed by the fact that the [Evil] equivalent of Holy Word is called Blasphemy.
But mostly, I feel that blasphemy is not primarily against the divine, but against the sacred. And Evil is defined by crossing lines that others will not cross. Moral, divine, legal boundaries. Respect for the life and dignity of sentient beings, for example, is something Good, and can be tied to a perception of it as sacred, even if you're CG and a hardcore atheist. So, I feel like absolute blasphemy requires Evil, or at least it's the obvious way.
Of course, you can be Evil and have very sacred rituals. Then you'll be blasphemous, but towards others faiths and beliefs, not blasphemous in general. (Which is actually a very hard thing you're asking, because blasphemy is generally referred to particular beliefs/faiths).

Besides, to have a sense of the sacred means to have beliefs and values, however twisted. To have values, you need a functional soul. That's what Fiends don't have (I'm focusing on Demons but arguably any Fiend would do). Theirs souls have been broken into a state of sterility that forbids actual moral values, they just have desires, impulses and rational thoughts.
Demons ? I can't think of anything they see or respect as sacred. And, being demons, they take depraved pleasure in defiling what is sacred to others. That's why I think they fit, although their entire existence and their purpose in life is not, like your Cleric's, to spite Gods and the sacred. They just happen to do it.

[Xuldarinar]

And from there, came an idea.


A cleric that reveres blasphemy, and takes to worshiping various types of fiends, much as some might worship a pantheon of gods rather than an individual. It isn't faith in one individual, or even one species, but in many, what they represent, and what they have to offer. They come to teachings based in each type of fiend, and embrace it.

Some examples, just off the top of my head;

Asura: The gods, no better than mortals, are prone to mistakes.
Daemon: All things die, and even what was meant to be eternal can and aught to be fuel for the fire.
Demondand: Gods are not alone in their capacity to create.
Demon: Sin is a force of change. Outside the forces of the divine, one can ascend to a greater state through it.
Div: Mortal and deity alike are unworthy of their creations. These creations are best brought to ruin.
Kyton: By one's hand, one can become stronger. By the embrace of pain, one can begin to pursue perfection.
Qlippoth: Before sin, before morality, even before the gods' creation, there existed life.

[MistahBoweh]

From the original post, the idea I got was that essentially, the character is a servant of Vecna that is unaware they are a servant of Vecna. The cleric believes in defacing religious practices, but Vecna's secret worship would be unaffected and thus Vecna herself would only profit from such a cleric acting on his belief. It would also fit within Vecna's style to have a cleric who doesn't even realize the deity they're devoted to.

[Xuldarinar]

From the original post, the idea I got was that essentially, the character is a servant of Vecna that is unaware they are a servant of Vecna. The cleric believes in defacing religious practices, but Vecna's secret worship would be unaffected and thus Vecna herself would only profit from such a cleric acting on his belief. It would also fit within Vecna's style to have a cleric who doesn't even realize the deity they're devoted to.

Does Vecna even exist in pathfinder? Yes, but it is a secret?

[MistahBoweh]

That's something to ask your GM. Technically, Vecna and the assorted D&D gods are not in Pathfinder because of the OGL. They're not in the OGL version of 3.5. That doesn't stop most people from including them, however. If not, the domains and rules and such are all there. It's really up to your GM to decide how to handle it. If there's no Vecna in their world, there's some other god associated with deception that will fit the bill.

[Thealtruistorc]

The whole discussion we're having made me think of this video (http://www.cracked.com/video_18426_how-ayn-rand-l.-ron-hubbard-came-up-with-their-big-ideas.html). In particular look into the line "all the zealotry of religion without the token goodwill towards others."

[Xuldarinar]

The whole discussion we're having made me think of this video (http://www.cracked.com/video_18426_how-ayn-rand-l.-ron-hubbard-came-up-with-their-big-ideas.html). In particular look into the line "all the zealotry of religion without the token goodwill towards others."

..Thank you for showing that. I never saw it before. I love it.

[Murk]

This is very interesting, especially in a world where the gods can be pretty easily proven to exist.

I'd say this cleric would recognise the gods do exist, but he thinks they shouldn't. The gods have done more evil than they have done good; humanity needs to recognise their own inner strength; as long as there are spiritual authorities, true morality can not exist; the gods are too priviliged and don't understand mankind - there's plenty of reasons to wholeheartedly dislike gods.

So, the cause the cleric is dedicated to is exactly that: making people (or even the gods themselves) understand the gods are bogus and asshats and they should all stop revering them. Irreverence, that's the best way!
Whenever he encounters another cleric, he starts furious debates about how this cleric might think he is helping the good cause, but he isn't. He curses and swears a lot with gods' names. He spends his praying hours sending insults and threats to the gods. He pees in holy water and draws fallic symbols on church walls.

If you want the cleric to receive her powers in some way from the gods, this would be a great opportunity for an inside job. She has realised the only way to beat omnipotent creatures is through omnipotence. Using the gods' own power against them is the only option. So she hates the gods, doesn't revere them at all - no, the contrary - but saps the divine power all the same (probably in some way against the will of the gods). It might even be that the hatred of the gods against these kind of blasphemous people is so strong, their hate becomes a force of its own.

[Hrugner]

This is very interesting, especially in a world where the gods can be pretty easily proven to exist.

I'm not so sure about this. We know that there are gods, but in game all you know is that there are powerful creatures that grant powers and have power over human concepts. Given the lack of power cap for mortals, I see no real reason to believe that the gods differ greatly from wizards. You have people who can create a plane, create creatures, make them sentient and set them loose on a completely manufactured planet given enough time and money. It seems perfectly reasonable to say that there aren't gods, just powers you don't understand.

[Murk]

I'm not so sure about this. We know that there are gods, but in game all you know is that there are powerful creatures that grant powers and have power over human concepts. Given the lack of power cap for mortals, I see no real reason to believe that the gods differ greatly from wizards. You have people who can create a plane, create creatures, make them sentient and set them loose on a completely manufactured planet given enough time and money. It seems perfectly reasonable to say that there aren't gods, just powers you don't understand.

Quite indeed. I misphrased.
You are right: there are big dudes in the sky with awesome powers. That is all-round known and one can go check it for themselves. This does not necessarily mean they are gods, they should be gods, that they are good for the world or that they should be worshipped (after all, would you worship your epic level wizard companion?).

Which is why, even though they clearly exist, there is a spot for atheist or blasphemous clerics :)

[Seto]

I'm not so sure about this. We know that there are gods, but in game all you know is that there are powerful creatures that grant powers and have power over human concepts. Given the lack of power cap for mortals, I see no real reason to believe that the gods differ greatly from wizards. You have people who can create a plane, create creatures, make them sentient and set them loose on a completely manufactured planet given enough time and money. It seems perfectly reasonable to say that there aren't gods, just powers you don't understand.

That's the Athars' fluff (Planar Handbook). It may be a good fit and I thought to offer this suggestion, but was held back by the fact that, while they certainly are defiant (hell, Defiant is the name of the PrC), they leave a space open for a possible "Great Unknown", a true God incomprehensible to mortals.

[Molosse]

And from there, came an idea.


A cleric that reveres blasphemy, and takes to worshiping various types of fiends, much as some might worship a pantheon of gods rather than an individual. It isn't faith in one individual, or even one species, but in many, what they represent, and what they have to offer. They come to teachings based in each type of fiend, and embrace it.

Some examples, just off the top of my head;

Asura: The gods, no better than mortals, are prone to mistakes.
Daemon: All things die, and even what was meant to be eternal can and aught to be fuel for the fire.
Demondand: Gods are not alone in their capacity to create.
Demon: Sin is a force of change. Outside the forces of the divine, one can ascend to a greater state through it.
Div: Mortal and deity alike are unworthy of their creations. These creations are best brought to ruin.
Kyton: By one's hand, one can become stronger. By the embrace of pain, one can begin to pursue perfection.
Qlippoth: Before sin, before morality, even before the gods' creation, there existed life.

This seems to be the way to go. You're not railing against "Godhood" you're railing against the notion that the actions of the Divine are, inherently, Divine.
As you say: How can the Divine fail if it is truly Divine? How can that is the Godhead expire? If the creation of life is truly empyreal how is it then that others have succeeded in this goal?

You understand that there are gods but you also understand that the gods are fallible, their designs are imperfect and their powers are reliant upon the notion that individuals hold them to be Divine.

[Xuldarinar]

This seems to be the way to go. You're not railing against "Godhood" you're railing against the notion that the actions of the Divine are, inherently, Divine.
As you say: How can the Divine fail if it is truly Divine? How can that is the Godhead expire? If the creation of life is truly empyreal how is it then that others have succeeded in this goal?

You understand that there are gods but you also understand that the gods are fallible, their designs are imperfect and their powers are reliant upon the notion that individuals hold them to be Divine.

After I thought of it, i've favored that idea. Though, I wonder what other entities could be sources of inspiration. Im sure things of the tapestry largely could be drawn in as well, somehow.