SKILLS: Perk/Specialization system

[Ultimate_Coffee]

Hello again everyone!
I have an issue with skills in 5e, rather, I have an issue with skills in every edition of DnD I've ever played. Skills in DnD, as with everything else that fits a pass/fail mechanic, is based on a D20, which is very swingy. I find it difficult to portray a character that is truly a master of a given skill. This was reparable in DnD 3.x by pushing certain skills astronomically high with various bonuses, making my bonus so high that the D20 didn't matter, but with bounded accuracy in 5e, that isn't possible. This creates a paradigm where my character who has trained for years to master a given skill has only a slightly better chance of success than someone that has never tried to use the skill before.
In the same right, ability scores seems insignificant in many situations as well. My character with 20 strength can arm wrestle a peasant, and the peasant can win a fair share of the time, due to the swingyness of the D20.
In an attempt to repair this issue in my game, I implemented a system that allowed you to roll different dice based on your ability score when rolling an ability check/skill; from 2d6 to 3d10, but it has not resounded well with my group. Many of my players have been playing DnD for many years, and they dislike any pass/fail mechanic to veer off of the D20.

This has resulted in me switching back to a standard D20 ability/skill system, but I still want a more significant bonus for the trained/exceptional. This has led me to consider a perk system, where a player can select perks based on their trained skills or exceptional ability scores, giving them advantages in certain situations.

What I am expecting from the system is a list of perks that can be selected for each ability score, as well as each skill. Things like, advantage on strength checks to break things (for Strength), or add double proficiency to resist grapple (for Athletics). Have also considered making certain things auto success with selected perks, like auto stabilize without roll (for Medicine), or even adding new functionality to skills, maybe a way to recover a small amount of HP using Medicine.

I want the system to grant a small number of these perks, probably only to trained skills and abilities over 16, but not all trained skills, as that would provide a lot of perks. I was thinking like a set number of perks (2-5?) at first level, then gaining 1 more whenever your proficiency goes up.

Any suggestions/advice would be greatly appreciated. Please let me know if you have used a system similar to this, or have any ideas to help me refine it.
Any help is appreciated.

[pwykersotz]

Consider referencing this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?417019-5e-skills-thoughts-on-them) for some ideas. Several good ideas are laid out in there. In fact, so many that I can't think of any offhand that haven't been mentioned. Everything from auto-success criteria to 13th Age's skill system have been put forth.

I hope this helps! :smallsmile:

[JellyPooga]

I would consider carefully before implementing a system that grants straight bonuses like you suggest. Perhaps a better solution would be simply to allow Passive checks more often (like the "Take-10" option of 3ed). Contested and/or rolls with an element of danger should you fail would still be swingy, but routine tasks can all be resolved without rolling a dice. However good you are is how good you are.

Let's take an example of a Charlatan Rogue putting on a "magic show" for the peasantry of the city, in an effort to make a little cash. Let's call him Ash; he has Expertise in Sleight of Hand and Proficiency in Performance, Dex:16 and Cha:14. This gives him Sleight of Hand +9 and Performance +5

Ash starts his 'patter' and performs a few feats of legerdemain; cards tricks, palming coins and so forth. The simple crowd are accordingly impressed; a Passive SoH of 19 is much higher than the Passive Perception of even an exceptional peasant and the DM rules that this is routine enough a task not to require a roll. The DM gives him 9 coppers (1cp per point over the DC of 10) for his efforts.

For his next "act", Ash decides to pick a peasant from the crowd to 'assist'. The oafish farmer is more than happy to be part of the show. During the course of the act, Ash makes the oaf out to be a complete simpleton (which, to be fair, he is). The DM rules he has Advantage for his warm up acts and the easy target of the oaf, giving him a +10 modifier to his Performance roll. Ash rolls his d20, getting a 12 on the dice; not great, but with his Expertise and Advantage, it still nets him a result of 22; the crowd are doubled up in fits of laughter! It's such a good result, the DM has 2 silver and another 10 coppers fall into his hat (it doesn't sound like much, but we're talking about peasants here).

Unfortunately, the Oaf didn't take kindly to being the butt of Ash's jokes and whilst Ash is "front stage" with his back turned, the oaf tackles him from behind. Combat is joined. Not wanting to get in trouble with the City Guard, Ash decides not to draw his hidden dagger and merely tries to escape. After a few rounds of grappling (roll-roll-roll), Ash manages to slip away using Acrobatics and Stealth (both proficient with +6 modifiers, DM grants Advantage on the Stealth check for being able to hide in the crowd) and with his high Passive SoH, the GM even rules that he manages to grab his "hat" of 2sp and 19cp on the way!

Note that on Ash's Performance check, he literally cannot fail a DC:10 (easy) and has a 75% chance of hitting DC:15 (Medium). As GM, don't be afraid to hand out Advantage or use Passive scores. They reduce the "swing" factor by a significant amount without having to resort to adding houserules to the game.

[Slipperychicken]

Why doesn't OP just use passive scores most of the time instead of rolling?

[Ultimate_Coffee]

Thank you for the ideas, they are good ideas, however, my group is not satisfied with passive skills. They are used to making rolls, and enjoy it.
Honestly, my players don't seem too unsettled by the general swingyness of the skill system. I think that most of them are content to use the system as it is written in the PHB, but I have an issue with seeing my players fail at things that they should be good at.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

I also enjoy rolling over using passive scores. My favorite solution I saw proposed in the other thread was to switch to using 2d10 for skill checks. Changing to a bell-shaped results curve makes skills more generally consistent, as middling results are more likely than extreme results, without removing the element of chance which can create exciting and dramatic results.
It's a simple change that doesn't require an overhaul of the whole system. For any outside ability/rules interactions treat it as a single die roll, and a result of 2 the same as a 1 for the purposes of Halfling luck.

Edit: If you want your bell curve even more middle-heavy, you could also try 4d6 - 4.

[Daehron]

my group is not satisfied with passive skills. They are used to making rolls, and enjoy it.

Try using passive / advantage with die rolls.

If a task is done outside of combat and is not contested (all stealth checks should be considered contested - possibly others as well - deception/persuasion and the like), players can roll and take either the die result, or their passive result. If they have advantage they would get to roll twice, and choose either their die roll result or their passive (+5 for advantage).

For non-life and death contested rolls, like an arm wrestling match, compare passives a broad difference means an auto success. But have the participants roll. Let a Nat-1 or a Nat-20 mean 'something.' A Nat-20 by the peasant vs the passive of the hulking barbarian means the peasant actually made the barbarian work for it for a round or two before finally loosing. Or something like that. Just a thought.

[Ultimate_Coffee]

Thank you for the advise everyone, with this in mind, here is the new houserule that I have come up with:

When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted and you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10.

Exceptions: This has no effect on initiative or ability checks related to casting spells, even if you can add your proficiency bonus to these rolls.


I will be testing this in my game tomorrow, and will let you guys know how it works for my players.
Thanks again for the tips.

[pwykersotz]

Thank you for the advise everyone, with this in mind, here is the new houserule that I have come up with:

When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted and you make an ability check that lets you add your proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll of 9 or lower as a 10.

Exceptions: This has no effect on initiative or ability checks related to casting spells, even if you can add your proficiency bonus to these rolls.


I will be testing this in my game tomorrow, and will let you guys know how it works for my players.
Thanks again for the tips.

That's very solid and simple. Very nice. I definitely look forward to the update. :smallsmile: