3.5 Favored Soul vs. Sorcerer

[Necr0mancer]

I'm looking at the charts for the Favored Soul and I notice that the spells per day are the same as the Sorcerer. Makes sense to me. Then I look at the spells known and I notice some differences.

Almost across the board, the FS knows 2 additional spells per spell level then the Sorcerer. I expected them to know one more because they (usually) need to pick up Cure/Inflict spells, but does anyone know what the DESIGN reason for giving them the extra spell known is? My best guess is that Cleric spells are narrower, but if anyone has a better/more definitive reason, I would appreciate knowing it.

Also, as a DM, would it be unreasonable to make it so that PC has to take Cure/Inflict as one of their spell's known?

Thanks in advance!

[AvatarVecna]

Honestly, it's probably because the Divine spell list is considered weaker (at least, by the system creators). You see the same thing in Core: Wizards have a d4 HD, low BAB, one good save, no armor proficiencies, and armor seriously screws with their magic; meanwhile, Clerics have a d8 HD, medium BAB, two good saves, heavy armor proficiency, and armor doesn't screw with their magic. Arcane magic is considered more powerful than Divine magic for whatever reason.

EDIT: Also, I sincerely hope this doesn't turn into another one of those threads.

[Zaq]

Pretty much what AvatarVecna said: the Cleric list is weaker than the Sorcerer list, and that's especially true for someone like a Favored Soul who doesn't have access to domains.

You'll also notice that a Favored Soul has split-stat casting (using both CHA and WIS), while a Sorcerer only needs CHA and nothing else. I can't say definitively that their extra spells known are to balance the split-stat casting, but it's plausible that it was a factor.

I don't think it's a good idea to force a player to pick up Cure/Inflict spells. Let the player learn those spells if they choose, but honestly, even with more spells known than a Sorcerer, a Favored Soul doesn't really get that many spells known. If a player would rather rely on wands for their healing, I don't think it's appropriate to force them to do otherwise. Plenty of people who play Favored Souls would rather not have their party assume that they're going to expend half of their daily spell slots topping up their HP for them.

[Karl Aegis]

The favored soul needs a better chassis and more spells known to compete with the familiar that sorcerers get.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Favored Soul, as the healer of the party, is expected to cover all kinds of obscure ailment fixes, like Remove Curse and such, on top of the healing spells. It probably would have been better if they just got these niche staple patch-up spells specifically as a class feature and separated entirely from the rest of their spells known, so you don't get a FS gaming the system to ignore those spells and fill up on the most powerful ones only.

Also, the spell slots are a rip off. Clerics get domain slots without losing anything, a Wizard at least loses some spell access for specialist slots. AAAAAND....the cleric caps out at 5 (plus the domain slot!) slots per day as a base for the lower half of spell levels, while wizard caps at 4 across the board. So FS should also be getting more slots per day than Sorc to be competitive w/ cleric.

Add in all the splat-love sorcs got with obscenely powerful sorc-only spells (Wings of Cover, Wings of Flurry, Arcane Fusion and Arcane Spellsurge, etc...) while FS got diddly squat... And there's a reason Sorcs are still considered to have a purpose and uses other than just being "an inferior Wizard" while as Favored Souls are largely forgotten...because they literally are "just plain worse Clerics."

(I'd fix the issue by nerfing the cleric rather than boost the FS, though)

[Shoat]

The favored soul needs a better chassis and more spells known to compete with the familiar that sorcerers get.

So you're saying you'd consider it balanced to exchange the (useless unless you abuse the action-economy with it or need it for roleplaying purposes) familiar class feature for one more spell known per level?

[Venger]

So you're saying you'd consider it balanced to exchange the (useless unless you abuse the action-economy with it or need it for roleplaying purposes) familiar class feature for one more spell known per level?

he is joking.

referring to the familiar as powerful is a running joke on the forums.

[Psyren]

One for heals (which they have to learn manually unlike clerics) and one to represent the "domain." Seems simple enough to me.

[ryu]

So you're saying you'd consider it balanced to exchange the (useless unless you abuse the action-economy with it or need it for roleplaying purposes) familiar class feature for one more spell known per level?

You do realize that the familiar can essentially get you free improved initiative right? Or that they can be scouts with a native flying mode? Or that with share spell you can essentially turn the thing into a miniature animal companion for free right? Familiars are powerful if you know what you're doing and I haven't even gotten into shared skill ranks in UMD for an extra spell per turn at mid levels for less cost than a feat.

[Vhaidara]

Speaking of, can anyone link me to the original Lightning Warrior? Google is failing me.

[Extra Anchovies]

Speaking of, can anyone link me to the original Lightning Warrior? Google is failing me.

Here's a post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=7029114&postcount=6) with its stats, but it's not the original thread. The cached link in that post doesn't seem to be working.

[Bad Wolf]

EDIT: Also, I sincerely hope this doesn't turn into another one of those threads.

Sadly, it seems like that's the way its going. Anyone wanna start up a ninja vs wizard thread now?

[Extra Anchovies]

Sadly, it seems like that's the way its going. Anyone wanna start up a ninja vs wizard thread now?

I think I'd prefer ninja vs. dread pirate :smalltongue:

[Venger]

Sadly, it seems like that's the way its going. Anyone wanna start up a ninja vs wizard thread now?

wizard vs samurai (http://hdwallpapersbase.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Samurai_Jack_Wall_Paper_by_Blue_Staple_Studios.jpg )

[ryu]

wizard vs samurai (http://hdwallpapersbase.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Samurai_Jack_Wall_Paper_by_Blue_Staple_Studios.jpg )

Sadly it doesn't work for me. I just get that thing wasn't found.

[Venger]

Sadly it doesn't work for me. I just get that thing wasn't found.

let's try again (http://www.soundonsight.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Samurai-Jack.jpeg)

[eggynack]

Sadly, it seems like that's the way its going.
Doesn't seem to be going that direction yet. Typically, for things to go crazy, you'd need some sides and at least one person who's on the other one. Apart from the familiar thing, this thread seems relatively chill thus far. Biggest potential landmine I can see for a really long term thing is that thing about wasting slots on cure spells, but that hasn't gone anywhere too intense yet. The fact of the matter is, the answer here is pretty simple. The cleric list is not as good as the wizard list, and, while the wizard gets a lot of utility out of prepared casting, the cleric has the underlying necessity of calling up obscure healing spells on a day's notice.

[ryu]

let's try again (http://www.soundonsight.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Samurai-Jack.jpeg)

There we go. That's the stuff.

[Extra Anchovies]

Doesn't seem to be going that direction yet. Typically, for things to go crazy, you'd need some sides and at least one person who's on the other one. Apart from the familiar thing, this thread seems relatively chill thus far. Biggest potential landmine I can see for a really long term thing is that thing about wasting slots on cure spells, but that hasn't gone anywhere too intense yet. The fact of the matter is, the answer here is pretty simple. The cleric list is not as good as the wizard list, and, while the wizard gets a lot of utility out of prepared casting, the cleric has the underlying necessity of calling up obscure healing spells on a day's notice.

Nah, that (the bolded text) is a non-issue. They can just take Spontaneous Healer to cast those spells without even having to learn them.

[Venger]

Nah, that (the bolded text) is a non-issue. They can just take Spontaneous Healer to cast those spells without even having to learn them.

or just use wands, like sorcerers.

[nyjastul69]

Nah, that (the bolded text) is a non-issue. They can just take Spontaneous Healer to cast those spells without even having to learn them.

...but that's not really true. Spontaneous Healer has a hard cap on usages per day. The 2 core spontaneous casters don't have that limit.

[137beth]

or just use wands, like sorcerers.

Yea, I don't think needing to learn cure spells is the issue. In general, favored souls don't need to learn cure spells--they can still cast them from wands.

It mainly is just the perception of the wizard list being better than the cleric list by the game's designers.

[Extra Anchovies]

It mainly is just the perception of the wizard list being better than the cleric list by the game's designers.

How do they actually stack up next to each other? I know more than a few people who are obnoxiously steadfast in their belief that the wizard list is superior in every way (to the point of wanting to buff cleric, even).

[Venger]

How do they actually stack up next to each other? I know more than a few people who are obnoxiously steadfast in their belief that the wizard list is superior in every way (to the point of wanting to buff cleric, even).

wizard's list is better, but that's mostly because it's almost twice the size of cleric's. it receives a ton more splat support.

as far as offense goes, wizard has more options (not to say cleric doesn't have any at all, but it's got less straight offense spells)

cleric shines when it comes to buffs and defense with things wizard doesn't normally get, ike divine power and such.

so they're both T1, they just have their strength focused in different areas. wizards have a lot of niche and specifically useful spells while the cleric list is more generalized. depending on what kind of game you're in, this may mean wizard is either a little better or a lot better.

[AvatarVecna]

How do they actually stack up next to each other? I know more than a few people who are obnoxiously steadfast in their belief that the wizard list is superior in every way (to the point of wanting to buff cleric, even).

High-level cleric spells are broken, especially when combined with DMM: Persisted buffs, but even that stuff can't quite compete with chain-gating, disintegrating the action economy, Ice Assassin armies, impregnable undetectable demiplanes, and so on. Sure, clerics can pull off some of those tricks if they find a way to get those spells (with domains being the more common way to get things like Gate and Time Stop), but a Wizard doesn't have to work to get those kinds of things in their spellbook, since they're already on the wizard spell list. About the only things that clerics are significantly better at are healing/resurrection (which wizards can just barely replicate with spells like Wish), and gishing, which both clerics and the cleric spell list are better suited for generally speaking (obviously, individual cleric and wizard builds may have very wildly different gishing capabilities, and some wizard gishes are likely miles better than some cleric gishes).

[eggynack]

Nah, that (the bolded text) is a non-issue. They can just take Spontaneous Healer to cast those spells without even having to learn them.
I was thinking more the idea that favored souls should take those spells, or even must take those spells, and then that leads into a whole argument about the inefficiency of in-combat healing. Seems to be the most plausible place for this sort of thing to go, even if a straight up arena fight derail is more indicated by the title.

[Venger]

High-level cleric spells are broken, especially when combined with DMM: Persisted buffs, but even that stuff can't quite compete with chain-gating, disintegrating the action economy, Ice Assassin armies, impregnable undetectable demiplanes, and so on. Sure, clerics can pull off some of those tricks if they find a way to get those spells (with domains being the more common way to get things like Gate and Time Stop), but a Wizard doesn't have to work to get those kinds of things in their spellbook, since they're already on the wizard spell list. About the only things that clerics are significantly better at are healing/resurrection (which wizards can just barely replicate with spells like Wish), and gishing, which both clerics and the cleric spell list are better suited for generally speaking (obviously, individual cleric and wizard builds may have very wildly different gishing capabilities, and some wizard gishes are likely miles better than some cleric gishes).

that and the fact that clerics can only mimic most wizard spells through the anyspell line, but wizards can mimic essentially any spell via wyrm wizard.

[137beth]

wizard's list is better, but that's mostly because it's almost twice the size of cleric's. it receives a ton more splat support.

as far as offense goes, wizard has more options (not to say cleric doesn't have any at all, but it's got less straight offense spells)

cleric shines when it comes to buffs and defense with things wizard doesn't normally get, ike divine power and such.

so they're both T1, they just have their strength focused in different areas. wizards have a lot of niche and specifically useful spells while the cleric list is more generalized. depending on what kind of game you're in, this may mean wizard is either a little better or a lot better.

On the other hand, there are some really good buffs on the wizard list that aren't on the cleric list, with polymorph being the main one.

[Venger]

On the other hand, there are some really good buffs on the wizard list that aren't on the cleric list, with polymorph being the main one.

right, which is why wizard is better.

[Troacctid]

I like to think the designers decided that they screwed up by giving Sorcerers too few spells known, and gave the Favored Soul (and Shugenja) extra because they didn't want to repeat the mistake.

[Venger]

I like to think the designers decided that they screwed up by giving Sorcerers too few spells known, and gave the Favored Soul (and Shugenja) extra because they didn't want to repeat the mistake.

that's certainly plausible, but then they had to louse things up with that split casting stat.

[Psyren]

I like to think the designers decided that they screwed up by giving Sorcerers too few spells known, and gave the Favored Soul (and Shugenja) extra because they didn't want to repeat the mistake.

Or they rightly realized that both those classes have an inferior spell list to the sorcerer and could use a bump.

[nedz]

But the designer's probably assumed that you would take a Curing spell at each level.

This is almost certainly true at level 1, and probably for the first few levels, when you can't afford to waste your pennies on wands.

Also a lot of Cleric spells are situational and reactive. Restorations, Slow and Neutralise Poison, Cure Blindness and Deafness, etc. These spells are generally used to fix up other PCs so they probably assumed that the FS would spend spells known here too.

Which doesn't leave you much for flavour or tactical use.

[Pluto!]

The Favored Soul just has so many more spells than the Sorcerer that I don't think the comparison is particularly lopsided until either very high levels or unless optimization levels are such that the Sorcerer is taking 2-3 times as many actions as any other non-psion.

[Venger]

The Favored Soul just has so many more spells than the Sorcerer that I don't think the comparison is particularly lopsided until either very high levels or unless optimization levels are such that the Sorcerer is taking 2-3 times as many actions as any other non-psion.

while FS does have more slots, its casting stat is split. it's not as easy to say "just use stuff without any saves" when you have to pull from the cleric list instead of the wizard one. so it's going to lag behind sorcerer even early on, though it does have more spells. there's a reason the class isn't more popular.

[Pluto!]

There are a few ways to approach it - not using saves (dispels, buffs, debuffs and summons are all great on the Cleric list) is one, expecting to cast less (facilitated by self-buffs and weaponry) is another. And for a third, the Favored Soul's Constitution effectively starts 4 points higher than the Sorcerer due to its chassis, allowing a little more wiggle room to push mental stats.

Pretty much anywhere until level 10, making a Favored Soul stresses me out less than making an equivalent level Sorcerer due to the things the character can't do.

[Venger]

There are a few ways to approach it - not using saves (dispels, buffs, debuffs and summons are all great on the Cleric list) is one, expecting to cast less (facilitated by self-buffs and weaponry) is another. And for a third, the Favored Soul's Constitution effectively starts 4 points higher than the Sorcerer due to its chassis, allowing a little more wiggle room to push mental stats.

Pretty much anywhere until level 10, making a Favored Soul stresses me out less than making an equivalent level Sorcerer due to the things the character can't do.

that's true. so basically higher floor lower ceiling is what I'm hearing. I can agree with that.