Shapechange + Polymorph + Alter Self

[F9V]

Hello everyone,
I was re-reading the transmutation spells in the title and I got a few questions about the extraordinary/supernatural abilities and the spells effects.
example:
I cast the spell shapechange (which makes me get extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the new form) and then cast polymorph (which makes me get the extraordinary special attacks of the new form) and in the end alter self (which gives me the physical qualities of the new form).
Question is:
Their effects stack?
I keep the supernatural abilities obtained from shapechange? and extraordinary special attacks obtained from polymorph? Or i lose everything in function of the last spell, alter self?

Thank you in advance

[Cruiser1]

I cast the spell shapechange (which makes me get extraordinary and supernatural abilities of the new form) and then cast polymorph (which makes me get the extraordinary special attacks of the new form) and in the end alter self (which gives me the physical qualities of the new form).
Question is:
Their effects stack?
I keep the supernatural abilities obtained from shapechange? and extraordinary special attacks obtained from polymorph? Or i lose everything in function of the last spell, alter self?
Different effects stack, but the same effects from different sources don't. For example, Shapechange, Polymorph, and Alter Self all set your form, but you can only have one form, so only the most recently cast spell's form applies, because it renders the earlier form setting effects redundant. However, Polymorph changes your creature type and stats, and Alter Self doesn't, so casting Polymorph and then Alter Self will indeed leave you with Polymorph's creature type and stats, and Alter Self's form.

An optimizer can include Polymorph Any Object in their buff list, which unlike the other spells also sets your INT. Therefore do the following to take advantage of effects from four different creatures at once:


Cast Shapechange to get (Su) and (Ex) abilities.
Cast Polymorph Any Object to change your INT. (Replaces stats but not Su/Ex gained from Shapechange.)
Cast (Draconic) Polymorph to change your creature type and physical stats. (Replaces physical stats but not INT gained from Polymorph Any Object.)
Cast Alter Self to change your final form and appearance. (Replaces form but not Su/Ex/stats from above.)

[Curmudgeon]

That would require an accommodating DM who's willing to gloss over some spell details for you. For instance, Alter Self doesn't say you keep your current ability scores, but rather your own ability scores. The scores from Polymorph aren't yours; you're just borrowing them. (In addition to the rules text issue, there's the reasonable argument that those abilities were due to the form you had previously adopted, but no longer have.)

[Cruiser1]

Alter Self doesn't say you keep your current ability scores, but rather your own ability scores.
Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) says you retain your ability scores, which suggests they aren't touched. It doesn't say that Alter Self changes your ability scores to their original unbuffed values, by undoing the effects of other spells that might have changed them.

However, one thing that that Alter Self can do with respect to ability scores is adjust size bonuses/penalties to stats, because Alter Self's new form may change your size.

[Story]

I don't think size penalties/bonuses to stats is a general rule anywhere. It's just specifically stated in a bunch of different spell descriptions. So Alter Self wouldn't change your stats.

[Crake]

I don't think size penalties/bonuses to stats is a general rule anywhere. It's just specifically stated in a bunch of different spell descriptions. So Alter Self wouldn't change your stats.

Cruiser1 may be referring to the monster advancement size adjustments, but those are just for that, monster advancement. Gaining/losing size categories in any other way does not invoke those changes unless specifically mentioned otherwise (see half ogre/minotaur, though I think those templates are just silly, since apparently a half human-minotaur/ogre is apparently very significantly stronger than their full breed bretheren)

[Segev]

That would require an accommodating DM who's willing to gloss over some spell details for you. For instance, Alter Self doesn't say you keep your current ability scores, but rather your own ability scores. The scores from Polymorph aren't yours; you're just borrowing them. (In addition to the rules text issue, there's the reasonable argument that those abilities were due to the form you had previously adopted, but no longer have.)


Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) says you retain your ability scores, which suggests they aren't touched. It doesn't say that Alter Self changes your ability scores to their original unbuffed values, by undoing the effects of other spells that might have changed them.

"Retain your own" has two elements in its clause: "your own," which Curmudgeon focuses on, and "retain," which Cruiser1 focuses on.

In this case, Cruiser1's reading is the more semantically accurate. You are incapable of retaining something you do not have. In the optimization scenario under discussion, you do not, at the time alter self takes effect, the ability scores of your original form. An old joke illustrates:


A man is being prepared for surgery to re-attach fingers cut off in an accident with a band saw. "Doctor," he asks the surgeon, "Will I be able to play the violin when you're done?" Confident in his ability to restore full functionality, the surgeon smiles beatifically. "Of course," he says. "Wow," says the patient. "I couldn't before!"

It is only meaningful to speak of retention of something you currently have. In that context, and because "your own" is not a system term with an overriding mechanical definition, we must go with the plain English language interpretation that "retain your own ability scores" is equivalent to "your ability scores do not change." Yes, they could have worded it the second way, and they did not. This does not change that the functional linguistic meaning is the same in this context, and cannot be otherwise.

"Retain your own" meaning "what you currently have" is sensible. "Your own" is often something we use to refer to what somebody currently has, absent evidence that their possessions are not really owned by them. "Bring your own bike to the bicycle race" does not mean you have to personally own the bike you bring; you can borrow one from somebody else. All they mean, in that context, is that they are not providing bicycles to the cyclists.

"Retain," however, never means "re-aquire something you do not currently have." That is "restoring," not "retaining."

[F9V]

Ok, thank you for your reply guys!