Why exactly did Nale hate Malack?

[kierthos]

I've been re-reading old strips, and I had a question.

In strip #906, Nale says that while Malack has been thinking about killing Nale for two years (presumably when Nale killed Malack's spawn), Nale has been thinking about killing Malack since Nale was nine years old.

What happened when Nale was nine? Has that ever been revealed?

[dancrilis]

Has that ever been revealed?
No it hasn't.
There are many theories some of which make Nale sympathetic, some of which don't, some of which blame Tarquin, some of which don't .... you get the idea.

[Kantaki]

I don't think there is anything explicitly stated in comic. But knowing Nale it was most likely something minor. Maybe Malack gave him bad grades in something or Nale lost to him in a board game, or Malack didn't allow him a second dessert or he forced little Nale to take a afternoon nap when Nale saw himself as to grown-up for such a baby-thing.

[Takver]

It's interesting, because "I've been planning to kill you since I was nine years old!" is a bit of a teaser, especially with how dramatically it was presented, but we'll likely never know the answer because Nale is dead and Malack was destroyed. The origin of Nale's hatred for Malack is just not important to the overall story (unlike, say, Girard's hatred for Soon.) I guess it's one of those little things that's up to our own imagination, but there aren't a whole lot of loose ends in OOTS, I don't think, so it's a bit unusual.

[cobaltstarfire]

Somehow I got it into my head that it was jealousy or something like that...not really sure why. I'd have to re-read the strip to figure out what gave me that idea, and there's probably little to no evidence to support it either way.

[dancrilis]

I still think that Nale might return (there is some foreshadowing of this).

But there was also talk* about the origins of the Linear Guild as a book (which might also I suppose deal with Elan's mother and Tarquin hooking up and the divorce), Tarquin's favour from Miron was also gained 12 years ago and the time-line matches (Nale was after all 21).

*Talk on the forum - not from the Giant as far as I know.

[littlebum2002]

Malack killed Anel when they were 9 years old.

Also, it has been all but confirmed that there will be a Linear Guild/Vector Legion prequel book eventually.

[The Troubadour]

Also, it has been all but confirmed that there will be a Linear Guild/Vector Legion prequel book eventually.

It has? Awesome!

[littlebum2002]

It has? Awesome!

Well, you kinda have to read between the lines. When asked if there were any more prequel books, he didn't say no, he said "I already know exactly how many prequel books there will be", which pretty much implies there will be more than the present 2. And when asked if there will be a prequel book about the Order of the Scribble, he said "no". So unless we come upon some new antagonist who is more influential than the LG/VL, I think it's safe to say they will star in a prequel book eventually.

[Gift Jeraff]

Either:
-Miron ate the last slice of cake or pizza, but Tarquin told Nale it was Malack and thus Miron owed him a favor
or
-Malack drained someone close to Nale

[Benthesquid]

Disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights is kind of his own thing.

[AvatarVecna]

It could very well at least partially be wildly different ideologies. Nale is definitely LE, but he's a very different LE from both his father and Malack. LE is about someone who uses the rules, expectations, traditions, social norms, or whatever else sets behavior, and using their understanding of such things to manipulate the system into giving them power: where Tarkin uses his knowledge of story-telling conventions and tropes to turn him and his friends into a floating pool of dictatorial advisors, Nale uses manipulation to trick people into furthering his own goals (however petty his goals may be) ; while Nale's pride won't allow him to submit to his father's rule, he at least mildly respects Tarkin's ambition, his ability to see a goal and reach out for it using his own power; Nale himself used the multiclassing system to turn himself into a Bard-equivalent while avoiding the alignment restriction, and most of his plans, for how simple they seemed, work out at the beginning often enough to show that he truly does have some measure of tactical intelligence and the same ambition that he respects in his father.

Malack is not ambitious...at least, not in a way that Nale can respect. Malack has great power (what with being a Vampire Cleric and all), and yet he plays the part of the devoted servant to both his teammates (his arguable equals) and his deity. Furthermore, Malack's big plans, which make up most of his "ambition" involve waiting long enough for all his current allies to die so that he can take over all three empires unopposed and sacrifice tons of people to his deity daily. He's a powerful being who acts the perfect ambition-less servant while still looking down on Nale for being merely the less successful of his ally's children. That's got to have been a serious wound to Nale's entire ideology, not to mention his pride. It's exactly the kind of thing that young Nale would hold a grudge over (being talked down to by someone he doesn't respect at all).

Of course, maybe I'm entirely off-base here. I'm sure that, should the Giant do an origin story for the Linear Guild, it would be a much more interesting personal conflict than the mish-mash of vague ideas I've presented here.

[BannedInSchool]

Malack sank Nale's Battleship.

[dancrilis]

Nale is definitely LE, but he's a very different LE
...
Of course, maybe I'm entirely off-base here.

Maybe just maybe (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286395-Vigilantism-and-the-Lawful-Alignment-in-OotS/page2&p=15364378#post15364378).




Even bigger example. Nale. He never seems to do anything Lawful at all. He doesn't have a code. He doesn't follow traditions of law. He would break any code he had if he got his father's empire and his brother's eternal torment. He'd probably backstab Sabine if he had to.

Interesting, that. Don't you think? :smallwink:

[AvatarVecna]

Maybe just maybe (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?286395-Vigilantism-and-the-Lawful-Alignment-in-OotS/page2&p=15364378#post15364378).

Huh. Thinking things over, I realize that the only thing really giving a strong indication of LE was the whole Evil Opposites, which is about the only code Nale likes to stick with. Of course, even without Nale being LE himself, the rest of it seems to hit the nail on the head for me.

[MReav]

I figured Sabine was trying to corrupt Nale into CE, and he already made the transition to NE without realizing it.

As for Nale hating Malack, it could be anything, but knowing that Nale proudly proclaims himself a spiteful jackass who revels in disproportionate retribution over quasi-imagined slights, I wouldn't be surprised if it was because Malack put too many sprinkles on his ice cream.

[Xihirli]

Other than the fact that there can never be too many sprinkles, I concur.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0252.html

[The Pilgrim]

We'll never know, unless The Giant writes a prequel. I think it would be an interesting book, but we know the Giant is the kind of author who only writes something if he has anything to say. And I don't know if "nature vs nurture" and "people traumatized by child abuse" are themes he wants to explore in his works.

Anyway, my speculation about the issue of this thread:

I suppose Tarquin assigned Malack as Nale's professor at some point (Malack mentions it while in the pyramid (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0894.html)). And we all know it's pretty easy to hate your teachers, specially when the teacher is a monster like Malack, and the pupil is a psyco like Nale.

The idea that Malack drained/vamped someone Nale cared about is appealing. But we haven't been given any hint that Nale would embark in that kind of crusade for romantic or sympathetic reasons. An offense to his Ego is much more likely.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I've always thought it wasn't anything specific. Nale is the kind of person who could easily hate someone for simple reasons, real or imagined. Or he just simply grew to dislike Malack after spending time with him and that dislike slowly grew into hate.

[Peelee]

And I don't know if "nature vs nurture" and "people traumatized by child abuse" are themes he wants to explore in his works.
Nature vs Nurture wouldn't be out of line, I think, especially since stories can be resolved without it ever being definitively answered, despite deep exploration. And they can easily be pretty fun.

I've always thought it wasn't anything specific. Nale is the kind of person who could easily hate someone for simple reasons, real or imagined. Or he just simply grew to dislike Malack after spending time with him and that dislike slowly grew into hate.

Yeah, this is exactly as I see it until shown otherwise. He's a pretty psychotic dude.

[Xihirli]

Let's just say there's no part of the nature vs. nurture debate that can't be solved via highly invasive brain surgery.

[AvatarVecna]

I've always thought it wasn't anything specific. Nale is the kind of person who could easily hate someone for simple reasons, real or imagined. Or he just simply grew to dislike Malack after spending time with him and that dislike slowly grew into hate.

Maybe, but we're talking about a "dislike" turning into "hate" by the age of 9. He's been planning to kill Malack for that long.

[dancrilis]

Let's just say there's no part of the nature vs. nurture debate that can't be solved via highly invasive brain surgery.
Always nice to see references to that masterpiece.

[Peelee]

Let's just say there's no part of the nature vs. nurture debate that can't be solved via highly invasive brain surgery.

What is with you and surgery lately?

[Shining Wrath]

Nale wanted to be special, to be the center of Tarquin's world. Every interaction we see between Nale and Tarquin, Nale is working hard to garner attention.

Who was Tarquin's best friend? Not Nale. And that, I suspect, is why Nale wanted to kill Malack - eliminating a rival for Dad's attentions. Which, in a nice little karmic package, led directly to Nale's own death at his father's hands.

For which I offer no evidence other than the statement at Nale's death that Malack was Tarquin's best friend, and Nale's ego-driven personality.

[Morquard]

Nale wanted to be special, to be the center of Tarquin's world. Every interaction we see between Nale and Tarquin, Nale is working hard to garner attention.

Who was Tarquin's best friend? Not Nale. And that, I suspect, is why Nale wanted to kill Malack - eliminating a rival for Dad's attentions. Which, in a nice little karmic package, led directly to Nale's own death at his father's hands.

For which I offer no evidence other than the statement at Nale's death that Malack was Tarquin's best friend, and Nale's ego-driven personality.

I fully agree with you, it was my first thought as well when I started reading this thread.

[CowardlyPaladin]

I don't think there is anything explicitly stated in comic. But knowing Nale it was most likely something minor. Maybe Malack gave him bad grades in something or Nale lost to him in a board game, or Malack didn't allow him a second dessert or he forced little Nale to take a afternoon nap when Nale saw himself as to grown-up for such a baby-thing.

Actually I disagree, I think it was something very serious, which is why Nale reacts to petty things with such extremes, he is responding to what happened when he was 9.
My personal theory is that Malack killed somebody Nale was close too.

[Snails]

We'll never know, unless The Giant writes a prequel. I think it would be an interesting book, but we know the Giant is the kind of author who only writes something if he has anything to say. And I don't know if "nature vs nurture" and "people traumatized by child abuse" are themes he wants to explore in his works.

Anyway, my speculation about the issue of this thread:

I suppose Tarquin assigned Malack as Nale's professor at some point (Malack mentions it while in the pyramid (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0894.html)). And we all know it's pretty easy to hate your teachers, specially when the teacher is a monster like Malack, and the pupil is a psyco like Nale.

The idea that Malack drained/vamped someone Nale cared about is appealing. But we haven't been given any hint that Nale would embark in that kind of crusade for romantic or sympathetic reasons. An offense to his Ego is much more likely.

I like your even-handed and sober reasoning here. The Giant is unlikely to be interested in telling Nale's story for the same reason he is uninterested in telling Belkar's.

A few red cents... Tarquin fits the bill as a Controlling Parent. It would be completely like him to tell a young Nale "you should be more like X". That is not usually a heartwinning argument for normal RL young humans, and easily generates unnecessary resentment where none had to exist. Nale being a cartoon evil egomaniac, the results would be obvious.

[Bulldog Psion]

If the Giant ever does one of those "interview questions from the forum" threads again, this would make an excellent question to ask.

[Darth Paul]

Nale wanted to be special, to be the center of Tarquin's world. Every interaction we see between Nale and Tarquin, Nale is working hard to garner attention.

Who was Tarquin's best friend? Not Nale. And that, I suspect, is why Nale wanted to kill Malack - eliminating a rival for Dad's attentions. Which, in a nice little karmic package, led directly to Nale's own death at his father's hands.

For which I offer no evidence other than the statement at Nale's death that Malack was Tarquin's best friend, and Nale's ego-driven personality.

Thank you for summing up the argument I wanted to make, but was too tired to put into words last night. This is the most convincing explanation in my mind, and it also perfectly sums up the love/hate relationship between Nale and Tarquin. Even though Nale hates his father, he still loves him and wants his approval, even if he can't bear to admit those things to himself.


Tarquin fits the bill as a Controlling Parent. It would be completely like him to tell a young Nale "you should be more like X". That is not usually a heartwinning argument for normal RL young humans, and easily generates unnecessary resentment where none had to exist. Nale being a cartoon evil egomaniac, the results would be obvious.

And this element fits perfectly with Shining Wrath's argument, as well. Malack, the constantly humble, self-effacing, and loyal servant, was held up as the exemplar of what Nale should aspire to. Everything Nale not only isn't, but can never be. Just one more reason Tarquin preferred Malack, and one more reason for Nale to kill him.

[cobaltstarfire]

Well I guess at least there is some sort of evidence or feeling for "Nale is jealous" seeing as several other people have brought it up too, though I'm still probably going to re-read the comic sometime soon, it's been a while since I've refreshed.

[RebelRogue]

Judging from the amount of effort Rich has put into referencing their past interactions, I find it rather unlikely that it will not be further explored at some point.


If the Giant ever does one of those "interview questions from the forum" threads again, this would make an excellent question to ask.
It's a question about an unresolved plot point, hence one that's not very likely to be answered.

[Deliverance]

Mark me down as another one in favour of Nale overreacting to something minor and carrying a grudge.

Taking disproportionate revenge over quasi-imagined slights? It even says so on the Linear Guild's business cards, and it is consistent with his behaviour throughout the comic.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0257.html

[Jay R]

Well, you kinda have to read between the lines. When asked if there were any more prequel books, he didn't say no, he said "I already know exactly how many prequel books there will be", which pretty much implies there will be more than the present 2. And when asked if there will be a prequel book about the Order of the Scribble, he said "no". So unless we come upon some new antagonist who is more influential than the LG/VL, I think it's safe to say they will star in a prequel book eventually.

Well, darn! I was hoping for the tale of Five Guys Named Fyron in Cliffport. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html)

[kivzirrum]

Well, darn! I was hoping for the tale of Five Guys Named Fyron in Cliffport. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html)

Now THAT would be a brutal book.

[hagnat]

I think Nale was simply envious of Malack's relationship with Tarquin


Who was Tarquin's best friend? Not Nale.
:thog: not nale, not-nale. thog help nale nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail.

[Psyren]

And I don't know if "nature vs nurture" and "people traumatized by child abuse" are themes he wants to explore in his works.

He already did, with Redcloak, who was pretty clearly shown to be a halfway decent/innocent person before the Sapphire Guard and the crimson mantle showed up. Rather, what he's said is that he didn't really want to explore it with Belkar and Xykon as making them truly tragic would detract from their particular brand of psychopathic funny.

[Psyren]

I don't think there is anything explicitly stated in comic. But knowing Nale it was most likely something minor. Maybe Malack gave him bad grades in something or Nale lost to him in a board game, or Malack didn't allow him a second dessert or he forced little Nale to take a afternoon nap when Nale saw himself as to grown-up for such a baby-thing.

If that's all it took then he would have had at least as burning a grudge against "Auntie Laurin." I got the impression that Malack did something more personal to him. Maybe vamped his first love, and Nale was forced to off her?


And I don't know if "nature vs nurture" and "people traumatized by child abuse" are themes he wants to explore in his works.

He already did, with Redcloak, who was pretty clearly shown to be a halfway decent/innocent person before the Sapphire Guard and the crimson mantle showed up. Rather, what he's said is that he didn't really want to explore it with Belkar and Xykon as making them truly tragic would detract from their particular brand of psychopathic funny.

[xroads]

Malack killed Anel when they were 9 years old.

Who is Anel?

[dancrilis]

Who is Anel?

Elan and Nale's theoretical True Neutral brother. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0812.html)

[Lombard]

Who is Anel?

I wondered the same, and let me advise you that googling it even with "OOTS" in front of it gives you one decent hit and hits 2 through infinity are porn, lol.

[Vinyadan]

Quasi-imagined slights.

The wish of self-realization before his father, who likes a vampire better than him.

A father against whom he rebelled, and whom Malak helped.

So, I think it's all due to very complicated daddy issues, Tarquin's inability to show love to his child beyond his usual masquerade brought the child to hate Tarquin's best friend and kill his children, preparing for the time to murder him.

The fact that Malak also was his teacher put Nale in his power. That must have made the situation even worse for him. We don't know if Malak was a cruel teacher (somehow, I doubt it), but being forced to being grown up by the dude you want to substitute as Dad's BFF and Guy He's Proud Of and To Whom He Talks About Grown-Up Things must have been pretty hard for him, especially if his disposition staid the same since he was a child.

So, in the end, I think it mostly was Tarquin's fault. Or, I'm sure Tarquin had an horrible effect on his child. I'm not sure about how the undead monstrosity handled him. It could have been unspeakable horror or a rather "human" relationship, like he was trying to build with Durkon.

Or Nale hates him because he acted like someone who loved his children, while his own father couldn't go beyond vain showboating.

[AvatarVecna]

I wondered the same, and let me advise you that googling it even with "OOTS" in front of it gives you one decent hit and hits 2 through infinity are porn, lol.

Wow. And here I was thinking you were joking, or exaggerating. :smallsigh:

[Quild]

I think that #906 is the one that show us the best of Nale that we've ever seen.

He had his plan perfectly prepared, which worked. He seizes the perfect moment, has protection against negative energy, remembered that Malack had the spell prepared twice and realized he used them both this time. He handles that alone except for the dispell, he had practice that was specifically practice...
He knows that if he doesn't do it now, Malack will kill him after business (Tarquin's opinion on this doesn't sound good to me for three reasons. Malack could have overpass Tarquin here, Nale failed the test anyway and moreover, Nale does not want everything from Tarquin).

Everything seems flawless.


I'd be really, really, really disappointed if this moment of glory was to be spoiled by the revelation that it was for wrong reasons.

[kivzirrum]

I think that #906 is the one that show us the best of Nale that we've ever seen.

He had his plan perfectly prepared, which worked. He seizes the perfect moment, has protection against negative energy, remembered that Malack had the spell prepared twice and realized he used them both this time. He handles that alone except for the dispell, he had practice that was specifically practice...
He knows that if he doesn't do it now, Malack will kill him after business (Tarquin's opinion on this doesn't sound good to me for three reasons. Malack could have overpass Tarquin here, Nale failed the test anyway and moreover, Nale does not want everything from Tarquin).

Everything seems flawless.


I'd be really, really, really disappointed if this moment of glory was to be spoiled by the revelation that it was for wrong reasons.

Just curious--what would you consider the wrong reasons?

Bastard that he is, I tend to assume everything Nale does is for the wrong reasons :smalltongue: But I'm curious what you mean by that.

[Quild]

Just curious--what would you consider the wrong reasons?

Bastard that he is, I tend to assume everything Nale does is for the wrong reasons :smalltongue: But I'm curious what you mean by that.Wrong reasons would be another quasi-imagined slight. I don't think it would be something like having Tarquin's friendship/respect since Nale clearly doesn't want that (anymore ?).

I'd like it to be... Idk, something like Nale having had a stepmom he liked, a second mother... That Malack killed/didn't spare.

I'm fine if Nale already was an evil jerk at nine, I don't want it to be a turnpoint that shows us how Nale could have been Good, despite what Elan says to Haley right after Nale's death. But I want the reason for his hate toward Malack to be something for which Nale would be... kinda likeable.

[Psyren]

While I'm not sure there can be a wrong reason to off an evil arse like Malack, I agree with Quild - I would want the grudge to be something a little meatier than Nale's bog-standard pettiness.

[dancrilis]

The last time this question came up I leaned towards dominate - Malack strips away Nale's will to have him shut up and go away (for whatever reason).

For someone like Nale (or frankly most of us in all likelihood) that absolute loss of control could be devastating, and it wouldn't ever register to Malack as something that he would cause offence with.

There is also the other idea of:
The more Nale learned about Malack, the more he come to understand what drives him, the more he hated him. He hated him for what he was and for what he might one day become. I hated him not because Malack hated him but because Malack was incapable of good, honest, living hatred.

[Psyren]

Why would he ever need to dominate child-Nale though? Nale was hardly in a position to rebel against the adults in his life until he became one himself. Malack also does not strike me as the kind of person to throw his powers around unnecessarily like that, even the at-will ones.

[multilis]

When Nale was 9 years old, met a little girl who was visiting area with her dad. Nale fell in love but Malack did not approve because her dad Eyko was a paladin and paladins and vampires like to kill each other. - For more info see "Miko Miyazaki - Paladin for Hire", Prolog.

[Bulldog Psion]

Wow. And here I was thinking you were joking, or exaggerating. :smallsigh:

Being cursed with curiosity, I just Googled "Anel" with SafeSearch off, and was unable to duplicate these results.

Using just "Anel," I get nothing but links to jewelry -- specifically, some fancy looking gold rings.

Googling "Oots Anel," I get a bit more of a mixed bag, but get three OotS results first, followed by boots, t-shirts, licensed Dora the Explorer products, and historical newspaper archives, mostly. There is one "alien abduction" site I can see about 40 to 50 items down the page, but there's nothing remotely resembling porn.

Are you using Google or some other search engine? Because Google results seem pretty clean (as noted, SafeSearch is off, and has never been on, on my computer. I and prudery have been strangers since I was somewhere around 16 or 17.)

In short, color me :smallconfused:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

To add another data point, searching "Anel" gets me a mix of pages in Spanish and pages on a Greek political party, while "oots Anel" gets a mix of oots pages and what the other two forumites got. Oh, Google and its search algorithms.

[BannedInSchool]

OotS, BootS, pr0n, and boots pr0n for me.

[goodpeople25]

1st page i got 2 order of the sticks ( 1st and last result) one pair of boots, and the rest is boot Pr0n.

[Synar]

1)Pretty sure Anel is just another joke annagram of Elan/Nale (it could be the name of their sister if they had one, I guess).

2)Google doesn't give everyone the same results unless you specifically specify Google not to track your records and tailor your results based on previous searches. That is why people always disagree on what google search results are : it is because of their past search and because of the results they prioritized (the more you click on a link, the higher ranked it is). Using free search engine like DuckDuckGo, disabling the tracking or just providing print screen of your google result pages can solve the problem of sharing such pages. Or just don't think too much about it : because if all your results on a mundane request are porn, time to think about your computer time use and your life ethics for a while...:smallwink:

EDIT: Also :http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0812.html (in-comic origin of Anel).

[Giggling Ghast]

Name three people Nale didn't hate or regard as disposable.

[Shining Wrath]

Name three people Nale didn't hate or regard as disposable.

Sabine, Thog, and Zzdtri.

[goodpeople25]

Sabine, Thog, and Zzdtri.
For that second one you might want to check comic #255 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html) i think there might he some other examples as well

[Deliverance]

Sabine, Thog, and Zzdtri.

Nale's brilliant plan in strip #255 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html) regards Thog as utterly disposable. It is a plan that has Thog being hit on the head by an anvil as a 84% risk with a "to do" list that includes finding a new fighter for afterwards.

As for ZZdtri and Sabine? The issue didn't come up in the comic, so one can argue it either way with respect to whether he considered them disposable or not. His relationship with ZZdtri appears to have been as paymaster and mercenary, arguing that he probably considered ZZdtri disposable like the rest of his team, but he does appear to have cared for Sabine.

[AvatarVecna]

Being cursed with curiosity, I just Googled "Anel" with SafeSearch off, and was unable to duplicate these results.

Using just "Anel," I get nothing but links to jewelry -- specifically, some fancy looking gold rings.

Googling "Oots Anel," I get a bit more of a mixed bag, but get three OotS results first, followed by boots, t-shirts, licensed Dora the Explorer products, and historical newspaper archives, mostly. There is one "alien abduction" site I can see about 40 to 50 items down the page, but there's nothing remotely resembling porn.

Are you using Google or some other search engine? Because Google results seem pretty clean (as noted, SafeSearch is off, and has never been on, on my computer. I and prudery have been strangers since I was somewhere around 16 or 17.)

In short, color me :smallconfused:

Yeah, I'm definitely using google.

Using google (and googling the phrase "oots anel"), the first result is the discussion thread for OOTS #812 (the strip the joke originated in), the ninth result leads to a OotS WMG thread on TV Tropes, the tenth result is a pinterest page advertising cowboy boots (created by "Anel Schnell"), and the rest of the first pages results are porn of some form or another that all assume I mistyped both words of my google search. The second page of results is much less filthy, having only one and a half porny results (I'm counting the weebly page for "Kinky Boots: The Musical" as 1/2 porn for these purposes), with the rest evenly split between OotS discussion threads and pages with words typed in some foreign language (I didn't take the time to research which). Curiously enough, entering "anel" into the google search box reveals not a single porny result on the first several pages of results. Also of note is that, in both cases, the capitalization of various letters made no difference in the results returned (there was no difference between "oots anel" and "OotS Anel", for instance).

[goodpeople25]

Yeah, I'm definitely using google.

Using google (and googling the phrase "oots anel"), the first result is the discussion thread for OOTS #812 (the strip the joke originated in), the ninth result leads to a OotS WMG thread on TV Tropes, the tenth result is a pinterest page advertising cowboy boots (created by "Anel Schnell"), and the rest of the first pages results are porn of some form or another that all assume I mistyped both words of my google search. The second page of results is much less filthy, having only one and a half porny results (I'm counting the weebly page for "Kinky Boots: The Musical" as 1/2 porn for these purposes), with the rest evenly split between OotS discussion threads and pages with words typed in some foreign language (I didn't take the time to research which). Curiously enough, entering "anel" into the google search box reveals not a single porny result on the first several pages of results. Also of note is that, in both cases, the capitalization of various letters made no difference in the results returned (there was no difference between "oots anel" and "OotS Anel", for instance).
I got the same first page results but in a slightly different order the first was the same, but tv tropes was 10 and Pinterest was 8 The rest was porn that mostly involved boots. Also using google.

[Bulldog Psion]

Dangit -- I think I triggered a wacky Google search skit here. :smalleek: :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, with both Malack and Nale apparently permanently dead, I'm thinking that the secret of Nale's antagonism will remain forever hidden.

Though I will try to remember to ask the Giant about it if he ever has the time/inclination for another Q&A thread. In fact, I just put a post-it note about it on the edge of my computer screen.

I"ll bet there aren't too many people with a Post-It saying "Ask why Nale hated Malack's guts" stuck on their computer as a reminder. :smallwink:

[kivzirrum]

Wrong reasons would be another quasi-imagined slight. I don't think it would be something like having Tarquin's friendship/respect since Nale clearly doesn't want that (anymore ?).

I'd like it to be... Idk, something like Nale having had a stepmom he liked, a second mother... That Malack killed/didn't spare.

I'm fine if Nale already was an evil jerk at nine, I don't want it to be a turnpoint that shows us how Nale could have been Good, despite what Elan says to Haley right after Nale's death. But I want the reason for his hate toward Malack to be something for which Nale would be... kinda likeable.

Ah, gotcha. If it ever is revealed, for whatever reason, I imagine it won't be something like a "quasi-imagined slight," despite that being the Linear Guild's MO. Probably something petty, but if it's worth revealing, I imagine it is serious to some degree.

[BannedInSchool]

And now people legitimately looking for kinky boots porn will be directed here and be frustrated with whacky Google results.

[Psyren]

Kinky Boots is as G-Rated as they come :smallconfused: Maybe PG if the actors go heavy on innuendo.



Anyway, with both Malack and Nale apparently permanently dead, I'm thinking that the secret of Nale's antagonism will remain forever hidden.


We've got at least one more prequel book coming, and with both the VL and LG in the same place at the same time back in the day there's no reason such a book can't be about both of them.

[Psyren]

Apologies for the double post but I just noticed something that might shed light on this question. The first panel of 894 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0894.html), Malack starts to say something pretty interesting before Nale cuts him off: "You have always been a fool. Though my time is infinite, I still regret wasting so much of it teaching-" Was Malack one of Nale's teachers at some point? This could easily be the source of their antagonism, especially if either or both of them were forced into an association by Tarquin.

Thinking on it further, it makes me wonder why Nale, with his narratively-orderly father, ended up with such a disjointed hodge-podge of classes. Could it be that he tried a variety of professions and nothing stuck? Did his father, prior to realizing Elan had become an adventurer, try to live out his fantasy of being toppled by his son and immortalized through Nale, who completely lacked Elan's flair for the dramatic? Perhaps his father tried to get him to learn to be a cleric from Malack, and the failure of that attempt is what put the two at odds forever more. Alternatively, perhaps Malack was tasked with teaching him the political side of their familial shell game.

[hroþila]

I think the joke is that Nale is pretty much a bard in everything but name. Tarquin taught him to value bards, but being who he is he couldn't simply pick the bard class so instead he tried to replicate it in the most roundabout and bizantine way possible. It's not that he didn't know what he wanted to be or that he was trying out different stuff.

[Psyren]

I think the joke is that Nale is pretty much a bard in everything but name. Tarquin taught him to value bards, but being who he is he couldn't simply pick the bard class so instead he tried to replicate it in the most roundabout and bizantine way possible. It's not that he didn't know what he wanted to be or that he was trying out different stuff.

That's just it though - the question is why he "couldn't simply pick the bard class." It's not like he knew Elan existed back then (Tarquin deliberately didn't tell Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0724.html) about Elan's existence) so he wouldn't have been avoiding bard for the sake of his "evil opposites" theme. And earlier Nale pointed out that Tarquin taught him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) Bards are underpowered - yet later we find out from Tarquin that their lack of power is the fault of the bards themselves. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html)

In short, Nale hates his father. So why would he go along with his father's build suggestions so blithely? As you yourself pointed out, Nale is a bard in everything but name, and he dd it without knowing a thing about Elan, and while being raised to believe Bards are underpowered. Yet if it were simple rebellion against his father, he would have just gone with Bard anyway.

[hroþila]

It's not that Nale couldn't have picked the bard clase because of Elan (as you point out, Nale didn't even know he existed), but simply because that'd be too straightforward. Doing things in a needlessly complicated manner is kind of his shtick, after all.

I don't think he went bard(ish) to spite Tarquin. Rather, I'd say that's just how he turned out because he did, after all, get his outlook from his father.

[kivzirrum]

Yeah, I think Nale simply picked that combination of classes to get to where he wanted to be and that ended up being, essentially, a non-musical bard. I don't think it was anything more than a subconscious result of Nale's "needlessly complicated" style.

[Talyn]

That's just it though - the question is why he "couldn't simply pick the bard class." It's not like he knew Elan existed back then...

I'm pretty sure Bards can't be Lawful in 3.5.

[The Troubadour]

And I don't know if "nature vs nurture" [is a theme] he wants to explore in his works.

Doesn't he already explore it in the main strip, though?

[GreyTraveller]

I think the joke is that Nale is pretty much a bard in everything but nameIt's also a reference to first edition AD&D. Back then, bards were not one of the main classes; they were off in an appendix as an option. To become a bard, you first had to start out as a fighter, and attain a certain number of levels. Then you had to switch to thief, and get some levels there (and note that, unlike the more recent editions, you couldn't keep bouncing back and forth; once you switched to thief, you couldn't go back to taking levels in fighter). Then you could finally switch to bard. You'd get the various musical abilities, as well as a limited ability to cast spells (Druidic spells, actually). Oh, and you had to have pretty high across the board characteristics, too. It was indeed needlessly complex, but that's how it used to work before they just created a stand-alone bard class.

As for this:


Though I will try to remember to ask the Giant about it if he ever has the time/inclination for another Q&A thread. In fact, I just put a post-it note about it on the edge of my computer screen.The Giant has demonstrated that he doesn't usually develop details of the world beyond what is needed for the story. I'd be willing to wager that "Nale has hated Malack for years because of some reason" is as detailed as it gets. ;)

[Peelee]

The Giant has demonstrated that he doesn't usually develop details of the world beyond what is needed for the story. I'd be willing to wager that "Nale has hated Malack for years because of some reason" is as detailed as it gets. ;)

True, but character motivations are usually an element of the story. Why does Han try to extort Ben and Luke? He needs to pay off Jabba. Why does John Hammond invite his grandkids to Jurassic Park when it's being assessed for safety? He believes he can control everything. Why does Nale hate Malack?

[luagha]

I lean towards the Dominate hypothesis myself.

Dominate as an at-will power can be used for feats of incredible cruelty that don't leave a mark on their target. It can even be claimed to be a good thing, as in, "I'm training him to discipline his will to resist."

I imagine routine Dominations during Nale's youthful training in Evil; with Malack not caring that Domination is not Telepathy and so without bothering to question Nale ("I command you to tell the truth, how do you plan on killing me?") Nale could keep his plans all bottled up inside of him until the right moment.

[Peelee]

I lean towards the Dominate hypothesis myself.

Dominate as an at-will power can be used for feats of incredible cruelty that don't leave a mark on their target. It can even be claimed to be a good thing, as in, "I'm training him to discipline his will to resist."

I imagine routine Dominations during Nale's youthful training in Evil; with Malack not caring that Domination is not Telepathy and so without bothering to question Nale ("I command you to tell the truth, how do you plan on killing me?") Nale could keep his plans all bottled up inside of him until the right moment.

Why would Malack want to teach somebody how to resist his own powers? That would be like helping a cleric research a spell that protects the cleric from him; kind of a silly idea without a way around it.

[Rakoa]

Why would Malack want to teach somebody how to resist his own powers? That would be like helping a cleric research a spell that protects the cleric from him; kind of a silly idea without a way around it.

Being exposed to Dominate once or one thousand times doesn't make you any more resistant to it. His argument is that Malack could claim it helped, not that it actually does.

[Thrillhouse]

If it was a specific event that triggered it, it would have to be something that Malack didn't see as a slight, or at least not as a major one. After all, in Malack's mind the feud started with the killing of his kids--he never indicated that he understood it to be revenge or anything like that. Plus, Malack, Tarquin, and Nale all continued to stay together, so it could not have been something that was obvious to everyone as a terrible slight.

I lean towards it being clashing personalities and worldviews, as others have already suggested, rather than a specific event. The teacher-student relationship certainly exacerbated it. Most people in teaching today (I hope) want to teach, but Malack likely has no particular desire to teach (though not a hatred of it, either).

Basically, Malack has centuries of experience and wants the child Nale to listen to him. Nale thinks he knows everything and is kind of foolish even as an ADULT--since many sensible people were like this as children, just imagine what Nale was like as a child. On top of it, Malack does not exactly come across as somehow who would be particularly patient with bratty children--his own "children" start out completely obedient and only gain free will when HE decides they are ready for it.

On top of it, remember that corporal punishment was in use in education in our own world until relatively recently--and not just punishment for behaviour, but in some cases, as a response to wrong answers. And Malack was a big part of running the Empire of Blood. Let's just say that it would be fairly unreasonable of us to expect Malack to forgo corporal punishment, and somewhat reasonable to guess that he'd throw in some magical enhancements to his punishments (much better than "crass physical violence", as he said to Durkon).

So, there may have been a specific event that created the hatred, but there definitely does not need to be.

[Peelee]

Being exposed to Dominate once or one thousand times doesn't make you any more resistant to it. His argument is that Malack could claim it helped, not that it actually does.

Ah. In that case, why would Malack bother? What goal is accomplished by useless Domination, other than randomly being Evil for the lulz?