Is there a way for Animal Companions to gain the Pounce ability?

[YeaCatnipHulk]

I am currently playing a Druid with a Roc animal companion. Rocs don't naturally have the Pounce ability, so is there a feat maybe that allows you to add it to the list of special attacks? If no one can find anything that's totally okay! Dwayne the Roc is still pretty awesome as he is right now.

[Extra Anchovies]

Dwayne is a really cool name for a Roc.

Sadly, I don't think there's a way to give an animal companion pounce if they don't naturally get it. Paizo really doesn't like that ability.

[YeaCatnipHulk]

Oh darn. That's okay though! I have him the Hover feat so that he can fly above enemies and then full attack the next round. It works pretty well, especially combined with Cleave and Power Attack.

[Eldaran]

In fact there is a way. The feat Evolved Companion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/evolved-companion) gives a 1 point evolution to your animal companion, and Pounce just happens to be 1 point. The only caveat here is that the animal companion has to adhere to any form restrictions, and Pounce requires quadruped, so... Is a Roc a quadruped or a biped, because they're kind of neither.

Edit: I forgot you can take it multiple times, so I guess at the very worst you take it twice, get your Roc an extra set of legs, then take it again for pounce. Actually that wouldn't work since you're still limited to 1 pointers, doh!

[YeaCatnipHulk]

Where would it say in the Bestiary if a creature is quadruped or biped?

[Jack_Simth]

Where would it say in the Bestiary if a creature is quadruped or biped?
It's one of the things in the rules that's on the "ask your DM list" - well, the "Why would we need to say it?" list, but it amounts to the same thing.

Edit: Ooh! This is Pathfinder! There's a bonus vs. Trip for being a quadruped, that (in Pathfinder, at least) is called out as part of the CMD line. When that's present and not obviously due to some other circumstance, then it's a quadruped.

[YeaCatnipHulk]

It's one of the things in the rules that's on the "ask your DM list" - well, the "Why would we need to say it?" list, but it amounts to the same thing.

Edit: Ooh! This is Pathfinder! There's a bonus vs. Trip for being a quadruped, that (in Pathfinder, at least) is called out as part of the CMD line. When that's present and not obviously due to some other circumstance, then it's a quadruped.

Oh thanks! Rocs don't have a bonus against Trip so then that would mean that they are biped. That makes sense though because based off all the pictures they only have two legs and then two wings.

[Yanisa]

The RAW of Real Life state:


All birds are bipeds when on the ground, a feature inherited from their dinosaur ancestors.
(Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipedalism#Birds))

And Rocs are birds (both in pathfinder and real life legend).

:smalltongue:

[Extra Anchovies]

The RAW of Real Life state:


(Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipedalism#Birds))

And Rocs are birds (both in pathfinder and real life legend).

:smalltongue:

But what about when they're in the air? Specifying that they're bipeds on the ground seems to imply that they aren't bipeds in the air. That may not have been the intent, but that's what it implies due to PF being an exception-based rule system (e.g. it tells you what you can do, not what you can't).

[grarrrg]

In fact there is a way. The feat Evolved Companion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/evolved-companion) gives a 1 point evolution to your animal companion, and Pounce just happens to be 1 point. The only caveat here is that the animal companion has to adhere to any form restrictions, and Pounce requires quadruped

The OTHER caveat, is that Unchained rewrote the Summoner and made Pounce cost 3 points.
So it depends on the game/DM (e.g. if this is for Society, you aren't getting Pounce for 1 point).

[Sayt]

Animal Archive, for the purposes of what slots animal companions have, give various classificafions to animal companions (Avian, biped, quadrupeds of varying feet, Saurian, etc)

[DaedalusMkV]

But what about when they're in the air? Specifying that they're bipeds on the ground seems to imply that they aren't bipeds in the air. That may not have been the intent, but that's what it implies due to PF being an exception-based rule system (e.g. it tells you what you can do, not what you can't).

Nothing is bipedal in the air, including humans that develop the ability to fly. The X-pedal nomenclature refers to the number of limbs an animal uses for the purposes of locomotion on the ground, not how many 'legs' it has. It's why monkeys are not classified as bipedal, despite having distinct sets of legs and arms, while many species of lizard are "bipedal runners" despite having four legs and no arms. If an animal uses four limbs, leg or arm, to move, it's quadrupedal. That's probably not what the Pathfinder designers intended, since it opens up the form-based restrictions in some odd ways (tree sloths with Pounce!), and the more accurate assumption would probably be "four-plus-legged animal" if you don't want your Animal Companion losing Pounce when it flies or starts running (or gains an extra set of legs! Hexapeds are not quadrupeds, after all), but that's the real-world use of the term.


As for the OP's question, I don't believe there's any way to give a Roc Animal Companion the Pounce ability by normal means as a Druid. You can mimic the effects of Pounce at very high levels using Coordinated Charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/coordinated-charge-combat-teamwork) to allow your Animal Companion to Charge as an Immediate Action then Full Attack on their own turn, but getting ready access to Pounce pretty much requires access to the Sorc/Wiz spell list. You yourself can get it via Wild Shape once you have Beast Shape II, but without actually being able to cast any Polymorph spells you can't share with anyone else.

[Yanisa]

But what about when they're in the air? Specifying that they're bipeds on the ground seems to imply that they aren't bipeds in the air. That may not have been the intent, but that's what it implies due to PF being an exception-based rule system (e.g. it tells you what you can do, not what you can't).

In the air they are flying. Biped means they are bipedal, which means you use two legs to walk. You cannot be biped (or quadruped) in the air because you cannot use your legs to walk in the air. (unless you have air walk I guess). Good luck translating that to Pathfinder. Biped is a state of being, not a permanent descriptor. :smalltongue:

Edit: UnRogued :smallfrown:

[Extra Anchovies]

(tree sloths with Pounce!)

Thank you for this imagery, I'm imaging a really angry-looking sloth jumping out of a tree and tearing at some poor adventurer's face :smalltongue:

[YeaCatnipHulk]

If I had a quadruped animal companion then I could take the feat Evolved Companion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/evolved-companion) which grants one evolution point from the Summoner's evolution pool and Pounce is available in that pool for one point. However, this is where the debate regarding whether a Roc is considered a quadruped while flying because it is using all four limbs. This would mean he would be able to use the Pounce ability, but only while flying. An additional bonus is that I gave the Roc the Hover (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/monster-feats/hover) feat.

[Molosse]

Edit: UnRogued :smallfrown:

Yes!

In any case sad to say either Evolved Companion or Coordinated Charge are the ways to go for actually granting Pounce. Either that or find someway to turn the thing into a level 6 Barb.

[Spore]

On a tangent: Rocs preferred combat style is grappling, then flying up an dropping their prey to smash upon what is preferrably spikey rocks. This doesnt work for anyone with Feather Fall or with a flying spell up. But remember you can't react to falling instantly because by RAW you first drop for about 200 ft. (and casting while falling requires concentration afaik).

[Psyren]

On a tangent: Rocs preferred combat style is grappling, then flying up an dropping their prey to smash upon what is preferrably spikey rocks. This doesnt work for anyone with Feather Fall or with a flying spell up. But remember you can't react to falling instantly because by RAW you first drop for about 200 ft. (and casting while falling requires concentration afaik).

Immediate actions can be taken at any time though, so you can interrupt a fall with one. And it would seem pretty silly that you have to fall 200ft. before you can cast Feather Fall.

[YeaCatnipHulk]

On a tangent: Rocs preferred combat style is grappling, then flying up an dropping their prey to smash upon what is preferrably spikey rocks. This doesnt work for anyone with Feather Fall or with a flying spell up. But remember you can't react to falling instantly because by RAW you first drop for about 200 ft. (and casting while falling requires concentration afaik).

This is true! However, a wild Roc is gargantuan whereas an animal companion only grows to be large. This dramatically decreases the effectiveness of the Rocs ability to lift creatures into the air. That's why I am changing the tactics of my Roc; he's not very good at lifting creatures yet because he is not full grown and still only has a strength of 13 (the maximum weight he would be able to fly with at this strength is only 100lbs).