Making pounce into a feat

[Extra Anchovies]

As the title. Give players access to Pounce by spending a feat on it (no prerequisites). It would be convenient, but would it be good for game balance?

[Eldaran]

I think if you did do it, effects that apply to charge attacks should only apply to the first hit. This would prevent stacking charge modifiers that tend to make pounce so powerful, but still allow for full attacks and mobility.

[Kraken]

It'd probably be fine. If you have someone doing an outrageous amount of charging optimization, then even getting one attack off is enough to kill the target anyway, and they can get around the one attack restriction with cleave and increasing their reach.

[Ellowryn]

It would probably benefit gish builds the most, and even then i doubt it would be broken to do so. For most other melee classes the 1 level dip into barbarian is still worth it weather they gain pounce or not.

[lsfreak]

It becomes a feat tax for almost every class melee class. Just stop beating around the bush at that point and let melee weapons make full attacks as standard actions.

[Venger]

As the title. Give players access to Pounce by spending a feat on it (no prerequisites). It would be convenient, but would it be good for game balance?

no.

it hurts melee and benefits casters, which means it's a bad houserule. if I'm a fighter, I have to take *another* feat to be relevant without a lion totem barbarian dip. if I'm a wizard i just say "lol" polymorph into a lion or something, and just continue on.

if you want to let melee have nice things, just give melee nice things and say that they can all pounce.

[Extra Anchovies]

I think if you did do it, effects that apply to charge attacks should only apply to the first hit. This would prevent stacking charge modifiers that tend to make pounce so powerful, but still allow for full attacks and mobility.

Hm. Nice houserule. I may try that out sometime.


no.

it hurts melee and benefits casters, which means it's a bad houserule. if I'm a fighter, I have to take *another* feat to be relevant without a lion totem barbarian dip. if I'm a wizard i just say "lol" polymorph into a lion or something, and just continue on.

if you want to let melee have nice things, just give melee nice things and say that they can all pounce.

Hm. Fair point, hadn't thought about polymorph. But what classes do I give pounce to? If I give it to everyone, polymorph -> pounce is still an issue, but if I only give it to some classes, that one wizard who wants to hit people with a sword is gonna have a bad time (or rather, a worse time than he normally would).

ETA: I say "Hm." a lot. Probably too often.

[Venger]

Hm. Fair point, hadn't thought about polymorph. But what classes do I give pounce to? If I give it to everyone, polymorph -> pounce is still an issue, but if I only give it to some classes, that one wizard who wants to hit people with a sword is gonna have a bad time (or rather, a worse time than he normally would).

ETA: I say "Hm." a lot. Probably too often.

if you're making up your own rules, just give it to whoever you feel like. as long as you write it down first and make your players aware of it, there shouldn't be any hurt feelings.

whenever you think about rewriting part of the basic system to benefit melees, you must think of how casters will be able to take advantage of it.

don't give it to everyone if you don't want to buff casters. If a wizard complains about not being able to pounce, then you really need to throw a book at his head, there's like a zillion ways for him to do that if he so chooses.

there isn't a good generalized rule for this, so if you want to buff weak characters, you could just say "hey group, is it okay if I give bill free pounce since he's playing a singleclassed fighter? ted, since you're rolling wizard, I'm gonna leave you set. how's everyone feel about that?"

if you say "everyone can pounce" then you get the problem I've laid out.
if you say "no one who can cast spls can pounce," then you screw over brutecasters like runescarred berserkers or suel arcanamachs
if you say "only people with lvls of fighter (or whatever class) get pounce" then a gishy wizard could easily eat 1 level of fighter for free pouncing

what you want is a perfectly filtered individual case by case basis of when to apply pounce, and the answer to that is to use your own judgement. you're not trying to rewrite the 3.5 system, so there's no need to do a comprehensive list of what classes do/don't get it. besides, as outlined above, it's pointless anyway since you can circumvent it by dips.

if you try to disallow dips, then you must decide what a dip is and then bingo! you're making individual decisions on a case by case basis, so just do that to start and you will be happy.

[Rebel7284]

It's nice to give people trying to meelee more options. Go for it.

While gishes can pick this up too, note:
- Gishes tend to be more feat starved already due to heavy prerequisites and needing to focus on both magic and fighting.
- Gishes are weaker than pure casters anyway.
- Gishes already have a bunch of ways to pick up pounce, one more won't change anything.

[Kraken]

It's not necessarily mandatory for a melee character, any more so than, say, power attack. Melee characters already face tons of feat taxes though, so the question of whether the level spent on barbarian is a better option than the feat is intriguing.

[Venger]

It's not necessarily mandatory for a melee character, any more so than, say, power attack. Melee characters already face tons of feat taxes though, so the question of whether the level spent on barbarian is a better option than the feat is intriguing.

well, see, that's the problem. they either have to pay feat taxes or level taxes for lion totem barb (not an option for every character due to restrictions/featstarvedness) while casters don't have to do either, so extra anchovies is trying to mitigate this somewhat.

[Namfuak]

well, see, that's the problem. they either have to pay feat taxes or level taxes for lion totem barb (not an option for every character due to restrictions/featstarvedness) while casters don't have to do either, so extra anchovies is trying to mitigate this somewhat.

Why not just make it available to characters with natural base attack bonus of +6 (natural meaning from levels, so polymorph/divine might would not count). It becomes available to melee as soon as they can use it, but prohibits full casters from taking advantage of it until much later level. Clerics still get it at level 8, but if you're worried about that I'd probably drop their BAB to 1/2 anyway.

[Venger]

Why not just make it available to characters with natural base attack bonus of +6 (natural meaning from levels, so polymorph/divine might would not count). It becomes available to melee as soon as they can use it, but prohibits full casters from taking advantage of it until much later level. Clerics still get it at level 8, but if you're worried about that I'd probably drop their BAB to 1/2 anyway.

or you could just rule case-by-case instead of trying to insert an action-economy altering change into the entire system. T1s do not need free pounce.

melee can still enjoy it before their second iterative for the +2 to atk and ability to doublemove.

[Kraken]

Yeah, druids automatically obtaining pounce...probably a bad thing.

[lsfreak]

Before BAB+6, pounce or standard-action full attacks are valuable by anyone getting haste effects (or whirling frenzy, etc), flurry of blows, or TWFing.

[eggynack]

Yeah, druids automatically obtaining pounce...probably a bad thing.
Eh, they can pretty freely get it if they want it. Lots of the best combat forms pick it up for free. I guess you'd be buffing the ones that don't, but that's different from some all pounce or no pounce proposition. Clerics are probably a bigger problem. In any case, I don't think this is really benefiting casters all that much. Casters can take much better feats if they want them, and melee folk can and do take much worse feats, so this'd probably add rather than reduce balance. Don't really see how lion polymorph is all that relevant here, because that already gets pounce without a feat.

[Uncle Pine]

I personally feel that there are already enough ways to get pounce on a character and/or move and full attack on the same turn. Some of these are particularly effective for mundanes (Barbarian dip), others work better for casters (Travel devotion) and others are completely restricted to them (Polymorph).
If you feel like you need another way to get pounce, why not approve the creation of Lion's Charge rings? Gp are cheaper than feats, of which mundanes are already pretty starved.

[eggynack]

I personally feel that there are already enough ways to get pounce on a character and/or move and full attack on the same turn. Some of these are particularly effective for mundanes (Barbarian dip), others work better for casters (Travel devotion) and others are completely restricted to them (Polymorph).

Most classes can pull it off well enough, but I think that monks are particularly left out of the fun, because of alignment restrictions. There are ways around said restrictions, but it's annoying to say the least. Maybe they should just get pounce added to the class straight up. There're probably other classes that could use it too.

[Kazyan]

A caster is not going to spend a feat on Pounce. If they do, they're a gish, not a caster. This is nothing but a buff for melee; they were going to dip SLT Barbarian anyway if they wanted it and this just makes things easier.

That, or it's just Kazyan's Paradox: Every proposed change intended to benefit melee will somehow benefit casters more, even though 3.5 is blatantly not a local minimum for caster power.

[Andion Isurand]

How about something like what's been drafted below?
Not as good as the actual Pounce ability, but enough to make it work.

Martial Pounce [Combat]
You may bring your full wrath to bear upon enemies you engage in melee combat at the end of a short charge.
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +1, Run.
Benefit: You may make a full attack at the end of a charge, but only if the distance you charge does not exceed your movement speed. Any benefits that normally come from a charge, apply only to the first attack you make afterwards.
Special: A fighter can select Martial Pounce as one of his fighter bonus feats.

[Kraken]

If you're going to make run a prerequisite for it, I'd make pounce better than it already is, not worse.

[OldTrees1]

How about something like what's been drafted below?
Not as good as the actual Pounce ability, but enough to make it work.

So Fighters can't have nice things? Either make Pounce inherent or make a feat worthy of a Fighter taking it (aka don't dilute the drink).

Personally I think Pounce with no prerequisites is par for the course compared to the good feats Fighters can find by splatdiving. I also think that those good feats need to be a whole lot better if you want to improve Fighter.

[eggynack]

That, or it's just Kazyan's Paradox: Every proposed change intended to benefit melee will somehow benefit casters more, even though 3.5 is blatantly not a local minimum for caster power.
It is because of the power of casters, not in spite of it, that changes intended to help melee folk tend to help casters more. What caster power means, when you get right down to it, is that given some arbitrary game object, casters will be the most capable of making use of it. It's just what they do. Casters are singularly excellent at easily qualifying for things, so that keeping them away is difficult, and bringing out every possible advantage of those things, because they have the class feature support. There's a reason why caster feats tend to be better than melee feats, and it's because those feats are augmenting, and in a sense adding a multiplier to, a more powerful thing.

It's certainly not true in every case, because at the very least one can imagine a situation in which the balance harming facet already exists and then remove it to increase balance, therefore constituting a change that benefits melee more, but it's certainly true most of the time. You hand out more actions, and casters will use them far better. You make combat easier to access, and casters will use their occasionally great combat skills to take the game apart. You make surprise rounds more common for the sake of rogues, and you discover that casters are usually the only characters that can really use a standard action that's divorced from its move action in the first round of action.

And, of course, I don't think it's true in this case. Casters can do better things with their feats, so despite how feat starved martial characters tend to be, granting this sort of ability through a feat is a good way to go. I mean, what's going to happen? Is the wizard going to drop some of his metamagic, or is the cleric going to drop initiate of mystra? Mission frigging accomplished in that case.

Finally, @ Andion Isurand: I don't really like this martial pounce thing. What's even the point of giving out pounce in crappier form, with a bad feat tax? If you want a prerequisite, make it something that fighters actually take, and which casters tend to not take. Use, I dunno, power attack. That'd do the trick, I think. And definitely don't hand out a worse version of pounce. It's already unfair enough that characters with access to barbarian can pounce trivially, but to toss on weird caveats just seems mean.

[Andion Isurand]

Well, here's what it would look like as a strait up Pounce ability. I still think it should require something of a prerequisite, otherwise other things that count as special abilities or class features could be rationalized as being just one feat away.

Martial Pounce [Combat]
You may bring your full wrath to bear upon enemies you engage in melee combat at the end of a charge.
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +1, Run.
Benefit: You gain Pounce as an extraordinary special ability (MM 313).
Special: A fighter can select Martial Pounce as one of his fighter bonus feats.

[Killer Angel]

it hurts melee and benefits casters, which means it's a bad houserule. if I'm a fighter, I have to take *another* feat to be relevant without a lion totem barbarian dip.


So, you prefer the tax "take a level in lion totem barbarian"?
You know that it doesn't fit perfectly in every single fighter build.

[eggynack]

Well, here's what it would look like as a strait up Pounce ability. I still think it should require a prerequisite feat, otherwise other things that count as special abilities or class features could be rationalized as being just one feat away.

B]Martial Pounce [Combat][/B]
You may bring your full wrath to bear upon enemies you engage in melee combat at the end of a charge.
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +1, Run.
Benefit: You gain Pounce as an extraordinary special ability (MM 313).
Special: A fighter can select Martial Pounce as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Prerequisites are fine, I guess, but run is a butt. There's a whole list of feats that fighters like, ranging from power attack to combat expertise, to improved trip, to even improved bull rush. All feats that fighters will usually take, and that wizards will usually not take, thus building up the divide between martial and magic.

[Chronos]

Quoth Venger:

no.

it hurts melee and benefits casters, which means it's a bad houserule. if I'm a fighter, I have to take *another* feat to be relevant without a lion totem barbarian dip. if I'm a wizard i just say "lol" polymorph into a lion or something, and just continue on.
You forgot the blue text, which would have made this post a lot clearer. Seriously, this gives a benefit to melee and doesn't affect casters at all. That's the opposite of what you're saying. The most I can get out of your argument is "this doesn't completely close the gap between melee and casters, and therefore it's worthless, just like everything else that doesn't completely close the gap". No, it doesn't close the gap completely, but it does narrow it a little, and that's something that we should be looking to do every chance we get.

[Andion Isurand]

Well, logistically speaking, adding Run as a prerequisite makes sense given that arriving to the target sooner (fluff-wise), leaves more time to wrap up the full attack for a 6 second round... even if its a tax.

[eggynack]

Well, logistically speaking, adding Run as a prerequisite makes sense given that arriving to the target sooner (fluff-wise), leaves more time to wrap up the full attack for a 6 second round... even if its a tax.
It makes fluff sense, but that doesn't make it less of a butt. Taxing fighters is exactly the opposite of the point.

[OldTrees1]

Well, here's what it would look like as a strait up Pounce ability. I still think it should require something of a prerequisite, otherwise other things that count as special abilities or class features could be rationalized as being just one feat away.

Martial Pounce [Combat]
You may bring your full wrath to bear upon enemies you engage in melee combat at the end of a charge.
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +1, Run.
Benefit: You gain Pounce as an extraordinary special ability (MM 313).
Special: A fighter can select Martial Pounce as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Currently Pounce costs 1 level. To balance this feat without nerfing melee, you would need to buff the Run feat until it was a good/great feat. To balance this feat for Fighters you would also need to either give them more feats or make this feat worth 2 levels.

[lsfreak]

I can honestly say I would never take a Pounce feat if it required Run as a prereq. One level of barbarian is going to be "cheaper" for nearly every build even if it's only one feat, except for alignment conflicts if they're even enforced. Two levels of barbarian gets you another bonus feat, in a way 2, Lion Totem at 1st level (CC) and Wolf Totem at 2nd level (UA/SRD) gets Improved Trip with no prereqs. That's absolutely more appealing than spending two feats.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Honestly, I'd just make it a thing anyone with a BAB of +1 or more can do, like drawing your weapon during a charge. Non-magic classes already face a serious problem where they need to take several feats for their schtick to get off the ground, while casters can cast just fine without anything but a decent stat. Don't make it worse. Giving casters access to a new toy doesn't make a difference balance-wise because they already have an entire room full of toys; meanwhile, poor melee types over here are still playing with one headless doll five kids have used before them.

Actually, I'd go farther than just pounce at BAB +1. In my houserules, I give Combat Expertise, Improved Shield Bash, Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, and Precise Shot and Quick Draw as free bonus feats at that point-- sort of all the basic combat skills and key prerequisites*. As I see it, those are things that everyone with a modicum of combat training should be able to do, things that really shouldn't need a feat at all.



*I also ignore Point-Blank Shot completely; if you don't, it should probably be included in this list.

[Mehangel]

i think that the feat should be written something along the following lines:

Martial Pounce [Combat]
You may bring your full wrath to bear upon enemies you engage in melee combat at the end of a charge.
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +6.
Benefit: You gain Pounce as an extraordinary special ability (MM 313).
Special: A fighter automatically gains this as a class feature at 6th level.

[Venger]

So, you prefer the tax "take a level in lion totem barbarian"?
You know that it doesn't fit perfectly in every single fighter build.

I didn't say that. I said the exact opposite later on.

if extra anchovies wants to houserule that all melee get pounce for free, he should just do it instead of making them pay more feats for it.


i think that the feat should be written something along the following lines:

Martial Pounce [Combat]
You may bring your full wrath to bear upon enemies you engage in melee combat at the end of a charge.
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +6.
Benefit: You gain Pounce as an extraordinary special ability (MM 313).
Special: A fighter automatically gains this as a class feature at 6th level.

that's certainly better than forcing melee to take "run."

but you could just say "these people get free pounce, these ones do not" if you're making up rules and want to keep it away from casters. if you formalize it into a feat, casters will find a way to take it, which widens the gap instead of closing it since they're less featstarved than melee.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Iif you formalize it into a feat, casters will find a way to take it, which widens the gap instead of closing it since they're less featstarved than melee.
That's not all bad, though. The biggest problem with casters is their versatility; the more resources they devote towards a particular role, the better, in some respects.

[Venger]

That's not all bad, though. The biggest problem with casters is their versatility; the more resources they devote towards a particular role, the better, in some respects.

okay, see, my point from the beginning is that casters don't need to spend a feat to get pounce. they can get it through lion's charge/wild shape/polymorph/etc. melee, were it a feat, would need to spend feats on it. that's why I say it'd widen the gap.

[Red Fel]

Anything you turn into a feat helps melee, but it helps everybody; a rising tide raises all ships, after all. It doesn't substantially narrow the gap, it just makes one more tool available to be placed into a too-small toolbox. It's why, as others have mentioned in this thread, a popular homebrew suggestion has been to simply give melee certain abilities based upon BAB or similar progression, rather than make them feat-based.

Yes, being able to full attack on a charge, or trip or disarm more effectively, requires some training. That's what leveling up represents. You get better at attacking; is that honestly the only thing that improves? Surely, you also get better at using your weapon. Full attack on a charge isn't unreasonable, when your BAB is high enough to reflect a certain degree of mastery, to simply get for free.

If we're homebrewing solutions, skip the feat and make it automatic.

[Troacctid]

Why are we tying this to charging, exactly? Is there any reason why we wouldn't just make it a standard action to full-attack and call it a day?

[Segev]

At one point, I had considered just giving Fighters of a certain level a bonus move action every round. If they're charging, they're still getting only the one attack that way, but if they move and attack, they can move and full attack, instead.

[Venger]

Anything you turn into a feat helps melee, but it helps everybody; a rising tide raises all ships, after all. It doesn't substantially narrow the gap, it just makes one more tool available to be placed into a too-small toolbox. It's why, as others have mentioned in this thread, a popular homebrew suggestion has been to simply give melee certain abilities based upon BAB or similar progression, rather than make them feat-based.

Yes, being able to full attack on a charge, or trip or disarm more effectively, requires some training. That's what leveling up represents. You get better at attacking; is that honestly the only thing that improves? Surely, you also get better at using your weapon. Full attack on a charge isn't unreasonable, when your BAB is high enough to reflect a certain degree of mastery, to simply get for free.

If we're homebrewing solutions, skip the feat and make it automatic.

that's what I've been saying the whole time. yeah, I agree. if you're homebrewing, just gift the weak characters the ability and keep it from the strong ones.

[Necroticplague]

Meh. Except for the first few levels, you typically have more levels than feats. Thus, it'll still be better to just dip spirit lion totem barbarian for most who care. The times in which you have more feats than levels will be at the low ones where pounce won't provide much benefit.

[Extra Anchovies]

Why are we tying this to charging, exactly? Is there any reason why we wouldn't just make it a standard action to full-attack and call it a day?

Cunning surge, celerity, etc. Getting extra standard actions isn't all that hard if you put your mind and/or build resources to it.

[Kazyan]

Meanwhile, in an alternate universe...


MrBender: ...So I homebrewed a 'charge' full-round action. You can double-move in a straight line and get a bonus to hit with a single attack, but you get a short AC nerf for it. There's feats and stuff to make it better, too, and eventually you can make a full attack with it.

IllithidSavant: Dude, moving and full attacking benefits casters way too much. :smallannoyed: Multiple-charge touch spells will just decimate everything after they spam Heroics to get all those broken damage feats, while melee has to use its feats normally. Have fun watching Quickened Thunderlance + Charging kill absolutely everything, then Greater Celerity kill them again.

Ham Wizard: Also, Druids can now full attack every round without relying on lions. Yeah, this just makes melee redundant after you throw on one of those swift-action spells. My Persistomancer Archivist and his slots full of Hunter's Eye thank you.

Field Gar: Melee is literally the only archetype in the game that cares about AC, and you want to punish them for it? Oh, and melee always hits anyway if they do it right. The to-hit buff is useless.

[Venger]

Meanwhile, in an alternate universe...

how's that an alternate universe? that's what we're talking about, and those are the problems with giving it to casters.

[Kazyan]

...I really should not post about D&D while this tired. Never mind.

[Andion Isurand]

*I also ignore Point-Blank Shot completely; if you don't, it should probably be included in this list.

What if the feat looked like this, when combined with the Defensive Archery feat?

Point Blank Shot [Combat]
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with any ranged weapon you use against a target that lies within that weapon's first range increment. You also gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity provoked when you attack with or load a ranged weapon while threatened.
Special: A fighter may select Point Blank Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats.


i think that the feat should be written something along the following lines:

Martial Pounce [Combat]
You may bring your full wrath to bear upon enemies you engage in melee combat at the end of a charge.
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +6.
Benefit: You gain Pounce as an extraordinary special ability (MM 313).
Special: A fighter automatically gains this as a class feature at 6th level.

For the sake of TWF and such, I would keep the prerequisite at BAB +1.
IMO, I wouldn't give the feature automatically to a fighter, until you've given them more feats overall.

[Grod_The_Giant]

What if the feat looked like this, when combined with the Defensive Archery feat?

Point Blank Shot [Combat]
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with any ranged weapon you use against a target that lies within that weapon's first range increment. You also gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC against attacks of opportunity provoked when you attack with or load a ranged weapon while threatened.
Special: A fighter may select Point Blank Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats.
That's worth taking, especially since "first range increment" translates as "95% of encounters" for most archers. I don't know if I like it as a prerequisite, but it's worth taking, especially for precision-based archers.

[eggynack]

okay, see, my point from the beginning is that casters don't need to spend a feat to get pounce. they can get it through lion's charge/wild shape/polymorph/etc. melee, were it a feat, would need to spend feats on it. that's why I say it'd widen the gap.
That's the exact opposite of widening the gap. It's not like melee characters are already running around with pounce automatically, and this downgrades it to feat status. If casters don't need this to get pounce, and wouldn't want it even if they did, and this increases the number of ways for melee characters to access it, then this is obviously shrinking the gap. That casters can do this stuff natively makes the gap shrinking even more the case.