Hidden Gems: Best Homebrew Classes

[CowardlyPaladin]

So hypothetical question for people here, which homebrew classes (whether it be on Giantip or anywhere else) for 3.5/pathfinder do you consider fantastic enough that you want them included into the game proper if you could? Please list the class, source it if you can, say why you life it, and what it could add to D&D. I"m curious what people would think.

[Uncle Pine]

Evolutionist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?240717-The-better-man-There-is-no-such-thing-base-class). It's the only homebrew class I've ever allowed at my table (mainly because my group likes to stick to 1st party) and that was 3 years ago. Since then, Draken is still updating it with new content. You could say that the class itself is still evolving.

[AmberVael]

Tome of Radiance. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258654-Tome-of-Radiance-Mastering-the-Power-of-Love-and-Justice)
Selinia did some fantastic work on this- its a pretty cool system because it allows you to create your own powers (which is really not something any first party system handles, discounting epic spellcasting because it is horrible and should be forgotten). I'm also a fan of it because I prefer classes that don't work on a per-day basis, and because magical girls- but despite magical girls being the default fluff, it is a very adaptable and versatile system that can handle a lot of different explanations and refluffing. The numbers get a bit shakier at high levels, but its very good and generally maintains decent balance.

[EisenKreutzer]

I really love the Cerulean Seas classes, especially the Mariner which is a highly mobile Feat-based fighter.

Alluria Publishing have created a land-based equivalent of the Mariner, the Marauder, which I think is really cool and would allow at my table if anyone expressed interest in it.

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/133276/Clever-Classes-Pathway-to-Adventure-Edition-The-Marauder?filters=0_0_44235_0_0&manufacturers_id=2547

[Shoat]

I really like the Tome of Fiends Warlock variant (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Warlock,_Variant_%283.5e_Class%29) so I'll offer any of my players who wants to play warlock to use some (or all) of it's features in place of the standard warlock class features.


Edit: Now that I've read it, the Evolutionist is also really really cool.

[Vhaidara]

Well, I would be remiss for not plugging my own Mutant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?397272-Base-Class-The-Mutant-(I-Wanna-be-an-Eidolon!)).

And, depending on where you draw the line between Third Party and Homebrew (Third Party is really just homebrew with a publisher), I recommend Dreamscarred Press (Path of War, Pathfinder Psionics, Akashic Mysteries, Tzocatl [PF ToB, Psionics, Incarnum, and Truenaming respectively]), Radiance House (Occultist, ie PF Binder), and Drop Dead Studios (Spheres of Power, ie a fun magic system that is balanced to T3)

[CowardlyPaladin]

Well, I would be remiss for not plugging my own Mutant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?397272-Base-Class-The-Mutant-(I-Wanna-be-an-Eidolon!)).

And, depending on where you draw the line between Third Party and Homebrew (Third Party is really just homebrew with a publisher), I recommend Dreamscarred Press (Path of War, Pathfinder Psionics, Akashic Mysteries, Tzocatl [PF ToB, Psionics, Incarnum, and Truenaming respectively]), Radiance House (Occultist, ie PF Binder), and Drop Dead Studios (Spheres of Power, ie a fun magic system that is balanced to T3)

all of those are Dreamscarred press? Are they better than the original sources?

[Vhaidara]

Yeah, DSP does a lot. And I would say they are all upgrades. A lot of their playtesting is done on these forums as well (Path of War: Expanded, Akashic Mysteries, and Tzocatl are all in Playtest currently). Psionics and original PoW content can be found on the d20PFSRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/)

[Extra Anchovies]

Tzocatl

Speaking of which, has anyone heard from Fax lately? I've finally gotten around to actually looking at the playtest doc for that but don't want to bump the thread since it's been more than 45 days since the last post (and I don't want it locked).

[Doc_Maynot]

I've always been a big fan of the Dashing Dualist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?302593-Two-Swords-One-Happy-Ending-The-Dashing-Dualist-TWF-has-never-been-so-heroic-3-5) myself.

[CowardlyPaladin]

I really liked the a adaptations of the Benders for D&D, but I am no good at figuring out the Tiers

[Extra Anchovies]

I really liked the a adaptations of the Benders for D&D, but I am no good at figuring out the Tiers

Got any links?

[CowardlyPaladin]

https://sites.google.com/site/avatard20/bending-version2.0
Here you go. There was also a Giantip version but I can't find it any more

[Morcleon]

I really like the Codices of Spellshaping (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=e9tc7g0vfrmkqfbaiv8qkhukv2&topic=845.0). It's essentially a ranged, magical version of ToB. There's a lot of nice fluff and abilities in there, and it's a good option for a caster-type character with less complexity.

And for epic levels, Librim Eternia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247756) is really nice to allow for both a smoother transition into epic levels and more of an actually epic feel.

[AmberVael]

Got any links?


https://sites.google.com/site/avatard20/bending-version2.0
Here you go. There was also a Giantip version but I can't find it any more

Ah, I was going to talk about that too, but was having trouble finding the version I like. Fortunately, I found it! Its this one. (http://www.scribd.com/doc/36548716/Avatar-the-Last-d20-Supplement-MAIN-SOURCE) Very similar, but has some differences that I think are well advised (like bending not being a skill check, and some more variety in bending seeds).

I think the tier differs for the benders- I'm inclined to say Earthbending is potentially more powerful than the others, while Firebending may be the weakest since it is just so single minded on blasting. I'd estimate that they hover around tier 3-4 similar to the warlock and DFA, but with the potential for a few shenanigans.



And for epic levels, Librim Eternia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247756) is really nice to allow for both a smoother transition into epic levels and more of an actually epic feel.
It uh... Librim Eternia is...
I think I'll just say that I find the design very shaky in points, and that its best if you plan on just running with the purely ridiculous elements of D&D as opposed to shooting for actual balance. I mean seriously, it has epic spellcasting built into every class.

[Morcleon]

It uh... Librim Eternia is...
I think I'll just say that I find the design very shaky in points, and that its best if you plan on just running with the purely ridiculous elements of D&D as opposed to shooting for actual balance. I mean seriously, it has epic spellcasting built into every class.

Yeah, it is very much on the higher end as far as power goes. In most games I've played where Librim Eternia has been allowed, the epic spellcasting has been cut from the game entirely.

[Milo v3]

It uh... Librim Eternia is...
I think I'll just say that I find the design very shaky in points, and that its best if you plan on just running with the purely ridiculous elements of D&D as opposed to shooting for actual balance. I mean seriously, it has epic spellcasting built into every class.
Well it is Epic Level rules... :smalltongue:

[Kymme]

The Sagittarius (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?117933-The-Sagittarius-Base-Class-PEACH) is a fantastic class. It is incredibly versatile and fills the niche of a strong ranged character with some pretty interesting luck-based powers.

On top of that, Xefas' Mythos Classes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=6634147&postcount=52) are absolutely awesome, from a fluff and mechanical standpoint. They are incredibly powerful, on tier with full casters without even touching casting mechanics. They're very gamechanging, though.

[TheEmperor]

I would argue with anyone for hours upon hours over the fact that Gramarie (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?320298-My-Little-Gramarist-SCIENCE!-is-Magic-Gramarie-Discussion) reigns supreme as the homebrew to go to for SICK SCIENCING!


Personally, I prefer the older, second thread stuff that Kellus made, but you can use the new Council created homebrew.

[Milo v3]

Personally, I prefer the older, second thread stuff that Kellus made, but you can use the new Council created homebrew.

The issue in my eyes with the council created edition is that lack of free time has lead to work on it being very very slow, with not really enough content to be workable yet.

[danzibr]

As with Keledrath, I'll plug my own Fluxion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?417226-Book-of-Flux). It's young*, it's in in the works, its fun factor is being evaluated (AmberVael brought my attention to this), but I think it has potential.

*The reboot is, anyway.

[Darkweave31]

I'm running a game with tome of radiance and gramarie... It's fun and I get to play test and brainstorm for the gramarie rewrite since it's just me and my SO... BTW I found a pun-pun-esq loop to patch involving BIOY, the symbiosis mutation, and ever increasing gramarie checks.

[Milo v3]

I'm running a game with tome of radiance and gramarie... It's fun and I get to play test and brainstorm for the gramarie rewrite since it's just me and my SO... BTW I found a pun-pun-esq loop to patch involving BIOY, the symbiosis mutation, and ever increasing gramarie checks.

Could you post that on the gramarie thread. I've been worried about symbiosis for a while.

[Darkweave31]

Could you post that on the gramarie thread. I've been worried about symbiosis for a while.

Will do. I don't know if it's a true infinite, but it crashed excel.

[TheEmperor]

The issue in my eyes with the council created edition is that lack of free time has lead to work on it being very very slow, with not really enough content to be workable yet.

The only reason why I don't call the Council created stuff my favorite is simply because it's incomplete. But, I'm sure that given enough time that'll change.

(Summer's coming! I hope for big changes)

[Mehangel]

Possibly my favorite Homebrew 3.5 class is the Trissociate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?234951-Trissociate-3-5-Base-Class-(PEACH)).

[Endarire]

I like my Fun, Powerful Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?415704-D-amp-D-3-5-The-Fun-Powerful-Sorcerer-%28FPS%29-seeks-critique!). (Yes, that's the official title.)

I also used a modified version of Szatany's Ultimate Classes (http://www.thecbg.org/wiki/index.php?title=Ultimate_Classes:Main_Page) back in 2006ish when I ran my Awakening of Xeen (http://campbellgrege.com/work-listing/dnd/) campaign.

[Eldaran]

I love so many homebrew classes, it's hard to choose just one, so I'm going to post a whole bunch. I highly recommend all these classes:

Chronoshifter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13663397) - Fulfilling the classic role of the time mage, the Chronoshifter utilizes their own casting system that manipulates the flow of time to provide a host of support, debuff, and battlefield control effects, but at the cost of their own sanity.

Destined Hero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248161) - The Destined Hero is a melee class that gains a pool of actions points in every encounter. Though not extremely powerful in melee, their flexible and interesting powers are not to be underestimated.

Elemental Casters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160451) - This is a set of five elemental casters (fire, earth, water, air, and void) that are meant to act as a complete replacement for wizards and sorcerers. Utilizing the Beguiler style of spontaneous casting, these classes are very flavorful and depending on element can provide strong offensive or support casting. Though really anything by Jiriku (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=10523436&postcount=110) is great.

Indigo Trickster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199905) - A rogue style class designed around dual wielding, the Indigo Trickster is one of the the few classes I've ever seen that seamlessly integrates their class features with a mix of melee and magical combat. They use an invocation system like a Warlock, but in a very different fashion, gaining strength from their weapons and augmenting their roguish nature.

Knight-Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187700) - Unsurprisingly a combination of the Knight and Paladin classes, the Knight-Paladin is an excellent tank style character. They can make themselves incredibly hard to kill, and back it up with potent spells and melee combat.

Malefactor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202885) - The Malefactor is an offensive rogue type character, that has potent curses and auras designed to greatly weaken their foes. With an incredible array of debuffs, the Malefactor is one of the most dangerous and annoying enemies one can face.

Sagittarius (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117933) - This was already mentioned, but I'll say it again. An archer class, the Sagittarius draws from divine power in order to be gain fearsome skill with the bow. Not only can they deal incredible damage at range, but they have a limited ability to cast divine spells for utility as well.

Swordmage (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Swordmage) - This unusual class uses a form of spells that create temporary magic weapons that have a whole host of effects. Powerful and flavorful, while very unique in how they function. Can work very offensively or defensively.


Some of these have unfortunately not been updated since the forum's table formatting changed, so they can be a bit hard to read. =(

[ngilop]

Not going to self plug at all, as I find that a bit too selfish, PM me of you wanna know of any of my own homebrew.

But Jiriku's remixed Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?150122-3-5-The-Monk-Remixed) is pretty great

and I think that Kenneth's Marsha (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?224745-Marshal-Re-tool-pleale-critique))l is amazing

the best homebrew ON THIS SITE is Mammon Azrael's Warlock rewrite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?226021-The-Warlock-a-massive-rewrite-3-5-Base-Class-WIP) bar none.

[IZ42]

One of my favorite homebrew classes: Magitech Templar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?176276-3-5-Magitech-Templar-Iron-Man)

Gramarie is also pretty cool.

[torrasque666]

One of my favorite homebrew classes: Magitech Templar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?176276-3-5-Magitech-Templar-Iron-Man)

Gramarie is also pretty cool.
Was gonna come in here to say this. Yes I like being iron man.

[BilltheCynic]

I happen to like the Unkindness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?251809-As-of-someone-gently-rapping-rapping-at-my-chamber-door-3-5-PrC)Warlock PrC.

[bekeleven]

I've always been a big fan of the Dashing Dualist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?302593-Two-Swords-One-Happy-Ending-The-Dashing-Dualist-TWF-has-never-been-so-heroic-3-5) myself.

I was about to go, "So it turns out that class was loved by two people and ignored by the rest!"

Then I remembered you were the first person as well. Thanks, fan!

[1pwny]

I'm going to second the mention of Xefas' mythos classes. If not the entire mythos subsystem, at least consider adding all of Xefas' own work. It's kind of utterly amazing. Here's the compedium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?335295-Mythos-Compendium), which may or may not be a few months behind.

[Threadnaught]

From here Blue Mage, Legend and Ozodrin.

Will link in edit.

[CowardlyPaladin]

I"m curious, what homebrew classes do people like the fluff off the best? And a tier understanding of each class would be appreciated (I like the Gammerie stuff I hadn't heard about this before)

[bekeleven]

As a general rule, the best homebrew (besides my own (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16237388&postcount=226), which are obviously perfect) consists of classes that:


Grant meaningful build decisions
Encourage investment (as opposed to dipping)
Well edited -

Solid understanding of grammar and spelling
Abilities are concise, well-organized, and possibly indexed
Within abilities, the mechanical effects are clearly and unambiguously stated
Demonstrates a basic understanding of 3.5's systems and loopholes that may arise

High, but not broken power level
Fluff is not entirely absent, nor entirely dumb
Not Mythos


Many classes meet these critera. Those, in my opinion, are the good ones.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Ooh. Too many to list, honestly. :smalltongue:

Most of Kellus's work, and pretty much anything by Krimm Blackleaf or The Demented One.

But that's just the tip of a rather large iceberg.

[Doc_Maynot]

I was about to go, "So it turns out that class was loved by two people and ignored by the rest!"

Then I remembered you were the first person as well. Thanks, fan!

Actually, almost my entire table loves the class. I'm just the only one of us that gets on Giantitp. So you have four fans.

[Milo v3]

As a general rule, the best homebrew (besides my own (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16237388&postcount=226), which are obviously perfect) consists of classes that:


Grant meaningful build decisions
Encourage investment (as opposed to dipping)
Well edited -

Solid understanding of grammar and spelling
Abilities are concise, well-organized, and possibly indexed
Within abilities, the mechanical effects are clearly and unambiguously stated
Demonstrates a basic understanding of 3.5's systems and loopholes that may arise

High, but not broken power level
Fluff is not entirely absent, nor entirely dumb
Not Mythos


Many classes meet these critera. Those, in my opinion, are the good ones.

What's wrong with mythos?

[Vhaidara]

What's wrong with mythos?

Probably personal taste. I'm in the same boat: I just don't like the feel of Mythos.

[Darkweave31]

I'm also a big fan of Project Heretica (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?193554-Project-Heretica-not-just-a-Paladin-retooling) and the Fighting with [Style] (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?336953-Fighting-with-Style-(Revamped-New-Feats)) feats which are now pretty standard in my games.

[Extra Anchovies]

What's wrong with mythos?

It's halfway to being a different d20 system game, that's what. It's like Mongoose Publishing's Conan d20 or WotC's Star Wars d20 in that it's got a similar core system to 3.5, but enough of it has been changed that it feels like you're not playing D&D 3.5.

So it may be good homebrew, but it's not good 3.5 homebrew.

[AmberVael]

It's halfway to being a different d20 system game, that's what. It's like Mongoose Publishing's Conan d20 or WotC's Star Wars d20 in that it's got a similar core system to 3.5, but enough of it has been changed that it feels like you're not playing D&D 3.5.

So it may be good homebrew, but it's not good 3.5 homebrew.

Huh. That's not really a criticism I expected on Mythos.

Would you mind elaborating on this? If you'd rather not derail the thread too far, feel free to send it by PM, I'm just genuinely interested in your analysis.

[Extra Anchovies]

Huh. That's not really a criticism I expected on Mythos.

It's not really a criticism, either. Just an observation.


Would you mind elaborating on this? If you'd rather not derail the thread too far, feel free to send it by PM, I'm just genuinely interested in your analysis.

First, I'm going to let everyone know that I've only read one of the Mythos classes in full, and that was a while ago (it was some legendary traveler thingy).

The first thing that springs to mind is that it has a much higher balance point than anything from 3.5 (not saying that all mythos is stronger than all 3.5, just that all mythos is designed to be stronger than all 3.5 is designed to be). In a game with Mythos classes and WotC classes, the Mythos classes are going to stomp all over the others. Again, not a bad thing; the point of mythos is to be really high-powered.

There's also the Mythos/Excellencies subsystem, which is deeply ingrained into the fabric of the Mythos system. Classes only ever get non-mythos class features at level 1, and most of those modify their Mythos in some way. This leads to a game where every class is heavily custom-built; two characters from the same Mythos class can have almost entirely different sets of class features.

I suppose a better comparison than the ones in my previous post would be to Iron Heroes; it's a similar sort of game to 3.5 (fantasy roleplaying), and uses the same core rules (roll d20s for stuff, yo), but the class mechanics and general feel of the game are very different.

[Kymme]

It's halfway to being a different d20 system game, that's what. It's like Mongoose Publishing's Conan d20 or WotC's Star Wars d20 in that it's got a similar core system to 3.5, but enough of it has been changed that it feels like you're not playing D&D 3.5.

So it may be good homebrew, but it's not good 3.5 homebrew.

I get where you're coming from, I really do, but like... who are we to define what D&D 3.5 is? Is it running around the countryside with a CoDzilla and a Batman wizard just murderhobo-ing fools because they have green skin and you don't? Is it covert intrigue, Awakened skill-monkeys, and assassinating shady dukes? Is it just being a level 1 squire in a world of knights and kings and dragons? It's up to the DM and his players what they want D&D to feel like, and to assume anything else is to tell somebody that they're playing the game wrong... which is kinda counter-productive in a forum like this.


But anyways, back to recommending homebrew. I think I'm going to have to repeal my previous recommendation of the Mythos Classes. Sure, I adore them and think they are the most awesome thing since sliced bread, but they're stupid strong. They could drive an unprepared DM up the wall and probably create a stigma towards other homebrew. Stick with things around tier 4 or 3, because that's middle-of-the-road for balance, and you have way less chance of shattering the game over your knee and wielding the remains as an improvised bludgeoning weapon.

[AmberVael]

Doesn't the "non-mythos abilities" observation apply to Fighter, Wizard, and Sorcerer just as much though? Just change it to "non-feats" or "non-spells." Each of these classes can have drastically different playstyles and abilities depending on how you build them.
Well, maybe not so much fighter, but that's more because they all just play badly. :smallamused:

To be clear, I have no attachment to the Mythos classes myself- you'll notice they don't show up in my recommendations either. But I've considered similar concepts, and the idea that they're a very different system seems peculiar to me.

[bekeleven]

My TL;DR of mythos is "You set out to build something even stupider than a full caster. Congratulations, you succeeded."

From there half of my complaints are on the classes themselves:

Their abilities are NOT Concise, well-organized, or indexed, at least the ones I've looked at recently.
Half of the mythos I've seen are "Let me invent a subsystem that would normally be the focus of a whole book, you get it at level 6 along with three other ones." I read one yesterday where a level 1 mythos was "You are an Ozodrin", which for the record is by itself one of the highest-powered tier3s on the board. Also for the record, the class didn't link the Ozodrin anywhere. Gee, I thought this class was only 25000 words, turns out it's actually got another 13k in another user's posts from 2010.
And just a general complaint on the balance point of "This ability lets you (Ex) True Res yourself every time you die unless you drown" and "You gain the aquatic template" being three paragraphs apart, or other stupid "Can't be stopped by anything even if something specifically says it stops this ability" clauses that litter the subsystem.


The other half are on how the classes interact with the petri dish of GitP:

How the classes, when first introduced, all had the least helpful names possible. (What exactly is a castle built of someone's agony, and how does it differ from a castle built of anyone else's agony?) It looks like now they're at least putting the word "Mythos" into the titles. There were a few I opened thinking, "how did a spam thread get fourteen replies without any reports?" So, a lot of my early exposure to the system was unwilling.
How somehow, the idea of lolbonkers non-caster characters has convinced people in the play-by-post forums that tiers under 2 are no longer fun to play. I have a fighter-centric archer build with a dozen prestige dips designed that's never found a home in any game, because anything that starts above level 1 is fighters need not apply, and anything that starts at level 1 dissolves before level 3.
Related: Half of the homebrew approval requests I've seen on PbP are for mythos classes, and I don't have any numerical evidence for this, but I started PbP right around when Mythos were getting popular and I swear the wizards went from 50% optimized Iot7V/SCM, 30% Jenky Fatespinner/Mage of the Arcane Order, and 20% for-fun arcane tricksters and Divine Oracles to 80% Initiates and Shadowcraft Mages (or Wyrm Wizards, or Hathrans, etc.). Sometimes, when I see a mythos class requested for approval on a thread with a novice GM or one that hasn't used the phrase "High-op" anywhere, I suspect that the player is trying to sneak one over on the GM.
These ones are a lot more subjective and, well, self-centered (in that mythos harms my enjoyment of the forums). But if you want to know why I don't like mythos classes, they play a role.

[Extra Anchovies]

Related: Half of the homebrew approval requests I've seen on PbP are for mythos classes, and I don't have any numerical evidence for this, but I started PbP right around when Mythos were getting popular and I swear the wizards went from 50% optimized Iot7V/SCM, 30% Jenky Fatespinner/Mage of the Arcane Order, and 20% for-fun arcane tricksters and Divine Oracles to 80% Initiates and Shadowcraft Mages (or Wyrm Wizards, or Hathrans, etc.). Sometimes, when I see a mythos class requested for approval on a thread with a novice GM or one that hasn't used the phrase "High-op" anywhere, I suspect that the player is trying to sneak one over on the GM.

People do that? Mythos and WotC 3.5 classes do not mix. It simply doesn't work. They're designed with very different end goals in mind, and the respective class mechanics show that.

[Zaydos]

People do that? Mythos and WotC 3.5 classes do not mix. It simply doesn't work. They're designed with very different end goals in mind, and the respective class mechanics show that.

Unless you specify otherwise they do.

As for some good homebrew classes in no particular order:

Mime (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=13761970&postcount=21) Needs to be reposted with a proper table and get some editing/critiquing but a good show for a concept that's not done often or well in D&D.

Rulemaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18798876&postcount=27) Again needs to be reposted in a thread of its own (the rules are in the next 2 posts). Once they get access to multiversal range effects with the highest tier of rules they can trivially wipe out a setting which is a problem, but until 16th level they look like a really neat, really cool reality warper I'd love to see sometime.

Dabblemaster (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?160062-3-5-Dabbling-Master-of-Every-Kind-of-Magic!) Another really neat class that I'd like to see in play. Looks to be a little on the lower end of power, but not every game needs to be high powered/optimized.

There are others that I've seen and noted looked real cool, but not that I can remember off the top of my head.

[The-Mage-King]

I really like the Codices of Spellshaping (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=e9tc7g0vfrmkqfbaiv8qkhukv2&topic=845.0). It's essentially a ranged, magical version of ToB. There's a lot of nice fluff and abilities in there, and it's a good option for a caster-type character with less complexity.

SECONDED. Spellshaping is great, and I'd allow or encourage it in whatever D&D game I get conned into running, not to mention try to . :smalltongue:


Ooh. Too many to list, honestly. :smalltongue:

Most of Kellus's work, and pretty much anything by Krimm Blackleaf or The Demented One.

But that's just the tip of a rather large iceberg.

Also agree here. TDO made a ton of good ToB disciplines, which really allows for more... Options. Also would allow and encourage in any D&D game I run. :smalltongue: