Abjuration Armor bonuses

[torrasque666]

I'm looking for some abjuration spells to provide me with an armor bonus. I have a Suel Arcanamach going Abjurant Champion, but since Suel Arcanamach is a spontaneous caster I can't get Luminous Armor. Any help?

[Morcleon]

I'm looking for some abjuration spells to provide me with an armor bonus. I have a Suel Arcanamach going Abjurant Champion, but since Suel Arcanamach is a spontaneous caster I can't get Luminous Armor. Any help?

Extra Spell (Complete Arcana) and Drake Helms (Explorer's Handbook) allow you to get extra spells on your list. Get the feat, or a one slot drake helm with a shard for luminous armor or the greater version.

[Thurbane]

I think (Greater) Luminous Armor (BoED p.102) is generally the best option for a Duskblade, if you can meet the sanctified reqs.

Off-topic, but if you dip a single level in Paragnostic Apostle can further boost any spell that grants an armor bonus by +2 (requires KNowledge [architecture and engineering] 5 ranks).

[torrasque666]

I'm going into Arcanamach with Soulborn, not Duskblade. I don't want to deal with picking spells for two classes, as well as having two mental foci.

[Troacctid]

There are only three abjuration spells in the entire game that grant an armor bonus to AC. Two are Luminous Armor and Greater Luminous Armor. The third is Ectoplasmic Armor (Spell Compendium), which only applies against incorporeal touch attacks.

[Venger]

There are only three abjuration spells in the entire game that grant an armor bonus to AC. Two are Luminous Armor and Greater Luminous Armor. The third is Ectoplasmic Armor (Spell Compendium), which only applies against incorporeal touch attacks.

if only abjurant champion had known that mage armor weren't an abjuration spell. then its rules could've actually made sense.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Spend a feat on Arcane Preparation (CA) and you can cast sanctified spells like (Greater) Luminous Armor.

[Extra Anchovies]

The only abjuration I know of (and also the only one that was turned up by a search of a particular, very comprehensive website we aren't allowed to discuss here) that grants an armor bonus to AC is Ectoplasmic Armor, which applies an armor bonus that only applies against incorporeal touch attacks.

Honestly, just ask your DM to let you treat Mage Armor as an abjuration for AbjChamp effects. The sample character applies the Abjurant Armor bonus to their Mage Armor, and the ability description calls out Mage Armor as a spell the PrC is supposed to utilize. You can't get much more RAI than that (except possibly monks being proficient with unarmed strikes) The writers just didn't think to make sure it actually was an abjuration.

[Venger]

The only abjuration I know of (and also the only one that was turned up by a search of a particular, very comprehensive website we aren't allowed to discuss here) that grants an armor bonus to AC is Ectoplasmic Armor, which applies an armor bonus that only applies against incorporeal touch attacks.

Honestly, just ask your DM to let you treat Mage Armor as an abjuration for AbjChamp effects. The sample character applies the Abjurant Armor bonus to their Mage Armor, and the ability description calls out Mage Armor as a spell the PrC is supposed to utilize. You can't get much more RAI than that (except possibly monks being proficient with unarmed strikes) The writers just didn't think to make sure it actually was an abjuration.

yeah seconding this. the iconic abjurant champion, saph, had his dm allow him to use greater luminous armor. it's hardly gamebreaking, as is treating it as an abj spell, which was plainly the intent.

[Thurbane]

I'm going into Arcanamach with Soulborn, not Duskblade. I don't want to deal with picking spells for two classes, as well as having two mental foci.

Actually, I meant best option for an Abjurant Champion, not Duskblade. My bad.

[torrasque666]

Actually, I meant best option for an Abjurant Champion, not Duskblade. My bad.
I was about to say. Isn't duskblade also spontaneous and thus ineligible for sanctified spells?

[Troacctid]

You could always go Suel Arcanamach 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Exalted Arcanist 5. Losing the caster level doesn't matter, since you still get all 10, and it's even 3/4 BAB. The extra known spells are probably well worth the feat tax to get in.

[Ellowryn]

Huh. Looking the Exalted Arcanist PrC and its capstone says "A 5th level Exalted Arcanist can use sanctified spells as though they were among her spells known." Does that mean that mean spontaneous casters can use the spells without the feat tax? (I never really cared for the class so i never really looked at it before.)

[Troacctid]

Huh. Looking the Exalted Arcanist PrC and its capstone says "A 5th level Exalted Arcanist can use sanctified spells as though they were among her spells known." Does that mean that mean spontaneous casters can use the spells without the feat tax? (I never really cared for the class so i never really looked at it before.)

If you mean Arcane Preparation, this recently came up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?389369-Simple-RAW-Thread-for-3-5-Score-and-Nine&p=19328085#post19328085) in the Rules Q&A thread--as written, Arcane Preparation doesn't let spontaneous casters prepare Sanctified spells, because the text doesn't just say prepared spellcasters can prepare them, it also says spontaneous casters can't cast them (except from scrolls). So being able to prepare spells is necessary, but not sufficient.

Exalted Arcanist sets up a specific exception that allows you to use Sanctified spells and, effectively, adds them all to your spells known, so it works great. (Although I wouldn't say it works without a feat tax, since there's a feat tax to qualify for the PrC.) You could also use Troubadour of Stars, which gives the same ability with a lighter feat tax--one feat instead of two. It has a better chassis and gives you bardic music, but slows down your spellcasting progression.

[Khedrac]

There are only three abjuration spells in the entire game that grant an armor bonus to AC. Two are Luminous Armor and Greater Luminous Armor. The third is Ectoplasmic Armor (Spell Compendium), which only applies against incorporeal touch attacks.

Never trust people making statement's like this - there's one in the same book as Duskblade:

deflect, lesser - PGBII p109

Also remember deflect (same page) which grants a shield bonus (so they stack).

Yes, the spells are pretty useless but they are abjuration spells.

[Thurbane]

The Deflect spells are a shield bonus, not an armor bonus, so Troacctid's statement is still correct.

The Abjurant Armor ability does work with Shield or Armor bonuses, however.

[Ger. Bessa]

I think there is one more spell, it's "armor of darkness" or something like that. 4th level spell exclusive to the Darkness domain. Scales with CL and around the same power as GLA. It's not even on the cleric list, but the arcane disciple feat can give it to you.

You'll have to verify, I'm afb right now. I think it's in the spell compendium.

[Extra Anchovies]

I think there is one more spell, it's "armor of darkness" or something like that. 4th level spell exclusive to the Darkness domain. Scales with CL and around the same power as GLA. It's not even on the cleric list, but the arcane disciple feat can give it to you.

You'll have to verify, I'm afb right now. I think it's in the spell compendium.

Armor of Darkness is deflection, like most AC-boosting abjurations.

[Ger. Bessa]

Then it might be one of the biggest deflection bonuses available from the start (before AbCh). Still good to know.

[Uncle Pine]

If you mean Arcane Preparation, this recently came up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?389369-Simple-RAW-Thread-for-3-5-Score-and-Nine&p=19328085#post19328085) in the Rules Q&A thread--as written, Arcane Preparation doesn't let spontaneous casters prepare Sanctified spells, because the text doesn't just say prepared spellcasters can prepare them, it also says spontaneous casters can't cast them (except from scrolls). So being able to prepare spells is necessary, but not sufficient.

Can casters who don't prepare some spells (i.e. Cleric, Druids, Wizards with the Spontaneous Divination ACF) cast sanctified spells? If they do, what's the difference between them and a Sorcerer with Arcane Preparation?

[Nihilarian]

It is a deflection bonus, and it's available right here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/armorOfDarkness.htm).

[Andezzar]

Extra Spell (Complete Arcana) and Drake Helms (Explorer's Handbook) allow you to get extra spells on your list. Get the feat, or a one slot drake helm with a shard for luminous armor or the greater version.Even though probably intended to do so, extra spell does not allow to select spells from other classes' spell lists by strict reading.

Drake Helms do not allow spells from other spell lists.
the spell within the dragonshard is on your spell list just as if you had chosen it normally.Normally you cannot choose a spell that is only on the spell lists of other classes.

[Extra Anchovies]

Can casters who don't prepare some spells (i.e. Cleric, Druids, Wizards with the Spontaneous Divination ACF) cast sanctified spells? If they do, what's the difference between them and a Sorcerer with Arcane Preparation?

Wizards with Spontaneous Divination can spontaneously cast spells, but aren't spontaneous spellcasters (i.e. they are not a member of a spontaneous casting class). Sorcerers with Arcane Preparation can prepare spells and cast prepared spells, but aren't prepared spellcasters. Some things require that a character be able to spontaneously cast spells, which is a requirement that a SponDiv wizard can meet, but they can't get any benefit from things that specify that they apply only to spontaneous spellcasters (e.g. casting advancement from some PrCs).

[Uncle Pine]

Wizards with Spontaneous Divination can spontaneously cast spells, but aren't spontaneous spellcasters (i.e. they are not a member of a spontaneous casting class). Sorcerers with Arcane Preparation can prepare spells and cast prepared spells, but aren't prepared spellcasters. Some things require that a character be able to spontaneously cast spells, which is a requirement that a SponDiv wizard can meet, but they can't get any benefit from things that specify that they apply only to spontaneous spellcasters (e.g. casting advancement from some PrCs).

It's debated whether or not Wizards Spontaneous Divination counts as spontaneous spellcasters because they can spontaneously cast spells without requiring nothing other than their own class features, but that's beside the point (even if I think that by RAW they do).
The point is that there's no mention of spontaneous or prepared spellcasters:

Spellcasters prepare sanctified spells just as they do regular spells, and casters who do not prepare spells (including sorcerers and bards) cannot make use of them except from a scroll.
Hence the question: are Paladins, Rangers and Wizards without Spontaneous Divination the only core classes that can cast sanctified spells? If yes, then Sorcerers with Arcane Preparation obviously can't cast them. Otherwise, they can.

[Morcleon]

Even though probably intended to do so, extra spell does not allow to select spells from other classes' spell lists by strict reading.

Drake Helms do not allow spells from other spell lists. Normally you cannot choose a spell that is only on the spell lists of other classes.

There's no wording in the Extra Spell feat that disallows selecting spells from other classes' spell lists. It merely says that you can learn another spell, without mentioning spell lists whatsoever.

You learn one additional spell at any level up to one lower than the highest level of spell you can currently cast.

Drake helms similarly do not disallow spells from other spell lists, as the quoted part ("the spell within the dragonshard is on your spell list just as if you had chosen it normally") does not say that you have to have selected it normally, merely that it exists on your spell list as if it had been picked as a spell known.

[Extra Anchovies]

It's debated whether or not Wizards Spontaneous Divination counts as spontaneous spellcasters because they can spontaneously cast spells without requiring nothing other than their own class features, but that's beside the point (even if I think that by RAW they do).
The point is that there's no mention of spontaneous or prepared spellcasters:


Spellcasters prepare sanctified spells just as they do regular spells, and casters who do not prepare spells (including sorcerers and bards) cannot make use of them except from a scroll.

Hence the question: are Paladins, Rangers and Wizards without Spontaneous Divination the only core classes that can cast sanctified spells? If yes, then Sorcerers with Arcane Preparation obviously can't cast them. Otherwise, they can.

Casters who do not prepare spells =/= casters who only prepare some spells. Even if a cleric blows all their slots on Cure X Wounds, they still have to prepare some spells (same goes for Druid). Sorcerers with Arcane Preparation can prepare spells, so they aren't in the category of "casters who do not prepare spells" (or at least aren't in that category on days that they prepared at least one spell), and thus can cast sanctified spells.

[Uncle Pine]

Casters who do not prepare spells =/= casters who only prepare some spells.

I'm going to stop you here. Casters who only prepare some spells are casters who don't prepare some others spells. Thus, they are casters who do not prepare spells (albeit only some of them).
My point is that by strict reading, you can either rule that only Paladins, Rangers and Wizards without Spontaneous Divination can cast sanctified spells as they are the only classes that satisfy both requirements (being able to prepare spells and not being able to cast spells without prepare them) or that the second half of the sentence simply means that if you can't prepare spells you can't cast sanctified spells, but you gain the ability to do so if you somehow manage to prepare some spells. As both reading are equally correct (but the first is absurd), I think that Sorcerers (and Suel Arcanamachs) shoul be able to cast Greater Luminous Armor if they take Arcane Preparation.

[Ellowryn]

It's debated whether or not Wizards Spontaneous Divination counts as spontaneous spellcasters because they can spontaneously cast spells without requiring nothing other than their own class features, but that's beside the point (even if I think that by RAW they do).
The point is that there's no mention of spontaneous or prepared spellcasters:

Hence the question: are Paladins, Rangers and Wizards without Spontaneous Divination the only core classes that can cast sanctified spells? If yes, then Sorcerers with Arcane Preparation obviously can't cast them. Otherwise, they can.

It specifically states in the section detailing Sanctified spells that Wizards, Paladin, Rangers and Druids can prepare and cast Sanctified spells, and then goes on to state that Clerics don't need to even prepare them as they can cast them spontaneously as if they were Cure spells.

[Uncle Pine]

It specifically states in the section detailing Sanctified spells that Wizards, Paladin, Rangers and Druids can prepare and cast Sanctified spells, and then goes on to state that Clerics don't need to even prepare them as they can cast them spontaneously as if they were Cure spells.

Touche. I still think that allowing a character who manages to prepare some spells to cast sanctified spells (thus reading "do not prepare spells" as "cannot prepare spells") is perfectly reasonable reading.

EDIT: So please disregard my previous babbling about Clerics and Druids not being able to cast sanctified spells.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I see where he's coming from in that rules response. Even though Clerics and Druids can spontaneously cast certain spells, they still prepare a spell in that spell slot and then spontaneously convert it into another spell. They cannot spontaneously convert spell slots left empty into Cure/Inflict/SNA spells. They still must prepare a spell in a given spell slot to cast a spell using that spell slot. So it makes sense that Arcane Preparation is not sufficient to cast sanctified spells, but it opens up disallowing a Wizard with Uncanny Forethought from casting them as well, or a multiclass character from casting them from his prepared class.

Regardless, just do the Ancestral Relic Runestaff (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) trick and put (Greater) Luminous Armor on that. You can UMD it each day when you attune to it to count any spell on it as being on your class spell list, so you can use that to cast spells from any class list.

[torrasque666]

I see where he's coming from in that rules response. Even though Clerics and Druids can spontaneously cast certain spells, they still prepare a spell in that spell slot and then spontaneously convert it into another spell. They cannot spontaneously convert spell slots left empty into Cure/Inflict/SNA spells. They still must prepare a spell in a given spell slot to cast a spell using that spell slot. So it makes sense that Arcane Preparation is not sufficient to cast sanctified spells, but it opens up disallowing a Wizard with Uncanny Forethought from casting them as well, or a multiclass character from casting them from his prepared class.

Regardless, just do the Ancestral Relic Runestaff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4) trick and put (Greater) Luminous Armor on that. You can UMD it each day when you attune to it to count any spell on it as being on your class spell list, so you can use that to cast spells from any class list.
I don't like that trick and am not going to use it. It feels..... cheap.

[Extra Anchovies]

I don't like that trick and am not going to use it. It feels..... cheap.

And it is cheap! Think of all the gp you'll save! :smalltongue:

[Andezzar]

There's no wording in the Extra Spell feat that disallows selecting spells from other classes' spell lists. It merely says that you can learn another spell, without mentioning spell lists whatsoever.I never said it disallowed it. What it does not however, is allow it. Per the normal rules a character can only select spells from the spell list of his class. The feat says nothing about overwriting that rule, so it is still in place.


Drake helms similarly do not disallow spells from other spell lists, as the quoted part ("the spell within the dragonshard is on your spell list just as if you had chosen it normally") does not say that you have to have selected it normally, merely that it exists on your spell list as if it had been picked as a spell known.If you had selected a spell normally, you could only have selected a spell that is on the spell list of your class. Since the item uses this method of selection as guideline all the restrictions of that method are in place.

[torrasque666]

And it is cheap! Think of all the gp you'll save! :smalltongue:
There's also the bit that the section on sanctified spells says a spontaneous caster can only cast them through scrolls. Not entirely sure if runestaffs will work.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's also the bit that the section on sanctified spells says a spontaneous caster can only cast them through scrolls. Not entirely sure if runestaffs will work.

That was written assuming you only have BoED and the three core rulebooks though, just like all the other splatbooks. Runestaves weren't printed until way later, so it couldn't make mention of them. Regardless, sanctified spells are still spells, and runestaffs can contain spells, and you can cast those spells that the runestaff contains.

[Troacctid]

That was written assuming you only have BoED and the three core rulebooks though, just like all the other splatbooks. Runestaves weren't printed until way later, so it couldn't make mention of them. Regardless, sanctified spells are still spells, and runestaffs can contain spells, and you can cast those spells that the runestaff contains.

Wands and staves and custom magic items are in the core rulebooks too. It still only mentions scrolls.

[torrasque666]

And I'm 90% sure I've seen runestaves in the DMG or at least the SRD.

[soapdude]

And I'm 90% sure I've seen runestaves in the DMG or at least the SRD.

Negative. Runestaves are in MIC. They are not in DMG or the SRD.

[Venger]

And I'm 90% sure I've seen runestaves in the DMG or at least the SRD.

you are probably conflating runestaves with staves.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wands and staves and custom magic items are in the core rulebooks too. It still only mentions scrolls.

As I said, make a UMD check when you attune to it in the morning and you're covered. Prepared casters are not prohibited from using sanctified spells from runestaff, so just make the UMD check to pretend to be a prepared spellcasting class and you can use it from the runestaff with your current spell slots.

[torrasque666]

I think specific trumps general and the sanctified spell rules overrule the UMD check. In any case, I'm not using it. Looks like I'll just use regular armor then ASF isn't hard to negate.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I think specific trumps general and the sanctified spell rules overrule the UMD check. In any case, I'm not using it. Looks like I'll just use regular armor then ASF isn't hard to negate.

UMD allows you to use it as though you were a member of another class, so you get to ignore the limitations of your own class. Plus if you're casting Shield and (Greater) Luminous Armor you don't need to worry about Polymorphing out of your armor, and you can wear a Monk's Belt and take Ascetic Mage to add your Cha bonus to your AC.

[torrasque666]

Biff, I think I've made it clear what I think of your suggestion. Don't bring it up again. If I don't think it works how you say it works, for my character, then it won't work that way for my character.​

[Thurbane]

There's no wording in the Extra Spell feat that disallows selecting spells from other classes' spell lists. It merely says that you can learn another spell, without mentioning spell lists whatsoever.

It also depends how much stock you put in the Official FAQ, which specifically calls it out as not working:


Can the warmage (Complete Arcane) benefit from the Extra Spell feat?

No. Extra Spell lets you add one spell to your list of spells known, but the spell must be taken from your class spell list. Since the warmage already knows all the spells on his class spell list, this feat has no effect.

[Darrin]

There's at least one other spell that gives an armor bonus:

Segojan's armor (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20041117a) (Clr/Dru/Rgr 1). +4 armor bonus, but otherwise equivalent to leather.

Getting it on an arcane spell list is a bit of a chore, though.

[Xerlith]

Segojan's armor (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20041117a) (Clr/Dru/Rgr 1). +4 armor bonus, but otherwise equivalent to leather.

Getting it on an arcane spell list is a bit of a chore, though.

Extra Spell?


Really though, the Sanctified spells restriction is for " casters who do not prepare spells", so if you have a caster that prepares spells (And that's what Arcane Preparation does), then you should be able to cast that spell.

[Nihilarian]

There's at least one other spell that gives an armor bonus:

Segojan's armor (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20041117a) (Clr/Dru/Rgr 1). +4 armor bonus, but otherwise equivalent to leather.

Getting it on an arcane spell list is a bit of a chore, though.Abjurant Armor doesn't actually require the spell to be arcane so Ranger 4/Duskblade 1 would theoretically work. Alternatively, Duskblade 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Chameleon 10.

[Andezzar]

As I said earlier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19329960&postcount=33), extra spell cannot be used to get a spell not on the spell list of your class.

Arcane Preparation should work.

[Xerlith]

As I said earlier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19329960&postcount=33), extra spell cannot be used to get a spell not on the spell list of your class.

Arcane Preparation should work.

The only restriction of the feat is that the spell is from the school you have access to. Nothing about it being on the list.

[Andezzar]

This is a general restriction. The feat does not waive it, so it is still in place. There is also the FAQ, as Thurbane mentioned, if you consider that relevant.

Saying Extra Spell allows selecting spells from other lists, because it does not reiterate the usual restrictions, is like saying Precise Shot allows an arbitrarily high number of attacks in and outside of your turn, because the usual limits are not mentioned in the feat.


You can shoot or throw ranged weapons at an opponent engaged in melee without taking the standard -4 penalty on your attack roll.

Both claims are obviously nonsense.

Comparing Extra Spell to the similar Expanded Knowledge might also be enlightening:
Add to your powers known one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest. You can choose any power, including powers from another discipline’s list or even from another class’s list.

Also where is this part about non-prohibited schools? Spell Schools aren't mentioned at all in the feat description.