[3.5] Using the "other" Knowledge Skills

[Thurbane]

Hey all,

We all know the most commonly useful Knowledge skills are the ones associated with creature types (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Religion, The PLanes), but how about the others?

Aside from synergies (which only need 5 ranks) and meeting reqs, what are some decent uses for Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering, Geography, History, Nobility & Royalty)?

Cheers - T

[Venger]

Hey all,

We all know the most commonly useful Knowledge skills are the ones associated with creature types (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Religion, The PLanes), but how about the others?

Aside from synergies (which only need 5 ranks) and meeting reqs, what are some decent uses for Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering, Geography, History, Nobility & Royalty)?

Cheers - T

printed, or fluff?

printed, architecture and engineering can be used to operate siege engines, which deal some pretty decent damage if you're into that sort of thing.

geography is pretty important in a grognardy game where you need to orienteer yourself and walk around a lot. it's especially handy if you're in a game with a lot of boat stuff, like an eberron game. that way you can know where the hell you're going and avoid stuff like the mournlands.

nobility/royalty basically ust functions like bardic knowledge or lore, it's an excuse to feed your players some fun exposition when you want to show off your worldbuilding. the only mechancial benefit I know it confers is recognizing heraldic signs on tabards and banners and stuff, whcih can be useful hen you need to identify whether a knight riding up to you on the borderlands is a friend or foe, especially if you're playing in an intrigue/social game.

history, as far as I know, has no useful purpose other than the above-mentioned lore to get your PCs to learn more trivia about your setting. I like to use history as the relevant knowledge skill for a psion using metamorphosis to turn into an inanimate object when it's like a painting or a sculpture or what have you, like craft for a mechanical thing.

[Thurbane]

Doesn't Survival pretty much cover the "not getting lost" function as well or better than Knowledge (Geography)?

As a DM, I actually really like KNowledge (History), as it allows me to throw players hints if they don't otherwise have the relevant Knowledge skill, since History can almost apply to anything, as long as it happened in the past.

[Venger]

Doesn't Survival pretty much cover the "not getting lost" function as well or better than Knowledge (Geography)?

As a DM, I actually really like KNowledge (History), as it allows me to throw players hints if they don't otherwise have the relevant Knowledge skill, since History can almost apply to anything, as long as it happened in the past.

of course it does. that's why no one uses geography.

while that's true, you could just do that on your own without making your players roll.

[nedz]

In a campaign I've just started a couple of players took ranks in Knowledge (Nobility) because it's kind of important in the setting — which is feudal.

The other two players took Survival.

If any of them had taken Knowledge (Geography) I'd have given them some maps. As it is, survival stops them getting hopelessly lost in the forest, but doesn't tell them where destinations are.

Mechanically Knowledge (Geography) is useful for a few feats and things — e.g. Horizon Walker.

[Ettina]

Also, Knowledge (Architecture) could be used to get hints about how a building was made, which could be plot important.

[Venger]

Also, Knowledge (Architecture) could be used to get hints about how a building was made, which could be plot important.

it also spots caryatid columns.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Also, Knowledge (Architecture) could be used to get hints about how a building was made, which could be plot important.

I actually remember a trend that started a few months after the release of 3.0 where knowledge Architecture checks were showing up in pretty much evry published adventure. I always figured it was a trollish "gotcha" by writers where ambushes could be made and treasure could be denied and it was all "fair" because there was a level appropriate skill check to avoid it. A lot of DM's got annoyed when I figured out this trend and started taking the skill.

[jiriku]

I use architecture to invent new devices and as a sort of plot armor to prevent the DM springing cave-ins on me when I am excavating something. It's also the skill used in shipbuilding. History has proven exceedingly useful -- it's a poor man's divination or contact other plane until you get to the level where you actually have those spells. Nobility should technically be useful for my characters, who love to politick and plot, but all too often it just exposes blank spaces in my DMs preparation where he doesn't have the names, personalities, or motivations of important characters fleshed out, and thus can't answer my questions. Ah well. Nothing is ever perfect.

[SinsI]

Also, Knowledge (Architecture) could be used to get hints about how a building was made, which could be plot important.
Can it help spot hidden rooms and doors?

[GolemsVoice]

Knowledge: History or Nobility can be useful if the player actually spends some time with people. Obviously, if you're dungeon-crawling, knowing about nobles won't do you much good. But imagine the players have to take care in some type of official celebration. Knowlegde (Nobility) helps them with knowing whom to approach first, how deep to bow, and how to adress various people. This can at least guarantee that they don'T make total idiots out of themselves, and in worst cases, it can even make the difference between success and failure.

Knowledge (History) can work the same way. You're leading very difficult peace talks. Roll Knowledge (History) to NOT say something that will infuriate one of the leaders of the tribe by claiming that some territory has always been under control of the enemy tribe.

[paranoidbox]

printed, architecture and engineering can be used to operate siege engines, which deal some pretty decent damage if you're into that sort of thing.

I thought Profession (Siege Engineer) was used for that. Which book lists the Knowledge skill as the operating method?

For my group, Geography and History are mostly used to learn about fluff, but sometimes that can get pretty important. We had a vision about some kind of pyramid once and a Geography roll revealed the direction of the "land of pyramids" to us. It's an easy way to get a little hint or bit of information we're lacking.

[Curmudgeon]

Can it help spot hidden rooms and doors?
Probably not hidden doors, but hidden rooms (or a space big enough for a hidden room) should be a low DC. However, that doesn't tell you if it's a hidden room or a hidden cesspool, so Stone Shape or Passwall could get really ugly. :smallwink:

[Thurbane]

Can it help spot hidden rooms and doors?

5 ranks gives a +2 bonus on Search checks made to find secret doors or hidden compartments.

[Story]

\Knowlegde (Nobility) helps them with knowing whom to approach first, how deep to bow, and how to adress various people. This can at least guarantee that they don'T make total idiots out of themselves, and in worst cases, it can even make the difference between success and failure.


But that's already rolled into the synergy bonus for Diplomacy. The real question is why you'd ever take more than 5 ranks in any of these skills.

[Venger]

I thought Profession (Siege Engineer) was used for that. Which book lists the Knowledge skill as the operating method?

you're right. I thought it was HoB, but it appears that it only mentions prof(siege engineer)

that skill is only mentioned in one other place, in haures's writeup in ToM. he gives a bonus to prof (siege engineer) and know(architecture and engineering) which is probably what caused me to conflate the two and foolishly thing there was anything worthwhile you could do with know (a&e)

[Blackhawk748]

you're right. I thought it was HoB, but it appears that it only mentions prof(siege engineer)

that skill is only mentioned in one other place, in haures's writeup in ToM. he gives a bonus to prof (siege engineer) and know(architecture and engineering) which is probably what caused me to conflate the two and foolishly thing there was anything worthwhile you could do with know (a&e)

Know Architecture could tell you were to throw the giant boulder though

[Venger]

Know Architecture could tell you were to throw the giant boulder though

that's just adding an arbitrary skill tax to stuff, it's not making the skill useful. after all, you don't need to make a religion roll every time you attack an undead, do you?

[Blackhawk748]

that's just adding an arbitrary skill tax to stuff, it's not making the skill useful. after all, you don't need to make a religion roll every time you attack an undead, do you?

I should have said "for maximum effect" i mean you can just keep smashing away at that one section of wall (its what i usually do) but if you have Know Architecture you may realize that that corner was built on bad ground so only 2 shots would be needed to drop that section instead of 4 or 5 anywhere else

[paranoidbox]

you're right. I thought it was HoB, but it appears that it only mentions prof(siege engineer)

that skill is only mentioned in one other place, in haures's writeup in ToM. he gives a bonus to prof (siege engineer) and know(architecture and engineering) which is probably what caused me to conflate the two and foolishly thing there was anything worthwhile you could do with know (a&e)

Yeah, I see. But I don't know, Know (a&e) could be useful if there's a decent level of technology in the world. I like to push the boundaries by asking if my character can figure out how, for instance, cannons work ("Btw, could I make a hand cannon version of this?"). Or, more mundanely, maybe he knows how to design his own aquaduct. Or how to make a building collapse on his enemies by sabotaging the structural integrity.

None of that is RAW though, so I agree it's a bit of a fool's skill.

[Hiro Quester]

We are playing a very jungle crossing and nautical travel campaign. My druid's backstory involves being cabin boy on a privateer ship for 30 years.

To fit with the backstory, I took one cross-class rank in knowledge geography. I have made many knowledge checks with that skill, when interpreting maps and charts and fitting them to the landmarks, etc. Esp. Borrowing and memorizing maps of places we will go soon, so I have a better idea of where we are in the big picture.

It was partly "not getting lost", which survival would do also. But survival doesn't help with maps and such.

I'd say that psi far being able to make the checks has been useful. Good rolls on the checks help a lot, though.

[Flickerdart]

The uselessness of half of the Knowledges is why I conflate them in my games:

Knowledge (Magic) (Int) - Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana)
Knowledge (Crystals) (Int) - Psicraft, Knowledge (Psionics)
Knowledge (Cosmology) (Int) - Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (Planes)
Knowledge (Society) (Int) - Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering), Knowledge (Local)
Knowledge (Wilderness) (Int) - Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Dungeoneering)

Of course, I conflate most of the other skills too, so INT based casters don't get an extra win out of it. :smalltongue:

[The Viscount]

Nobility and Royalty can conceivably be used to construct a false identity (as Sir Ulrich von Lichtenstein or similar) or by recognizing such a lineage as false.

[Venger]

Nobility and Royalty can conceivably be used to construct a false identity (as Sir Ulrich von Lichtenstein or similar) or by recognizing such a lineage as false.

mfw ulrich von lichtenstein (http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01189/arts-graphics-film_1189525a.jpg)

that is a really interesting idea though. sniff out zhentarim spies and such

[Miss Disaster]

I realize this is a 3.5 thread ..... but the extremely popular Pathfinder spell, Emergency Force Sphere, utilizes a Knowledge: Engineering skill check as an integral part of its final effect. In essence, to help keep and maintain its dome shape if the spell is used to protect against cave-ins.

I can't think of any other 3.5 spell that uses a similar game mechanic.

[Venger]

I realize this is a 3.5 thread ..... but the extremely popular Pathfinder spell, Emergency Force Sphere, utilizes a Knowledge: Engineering skill check as an integral part of its final effect. In essence, to help keep and maintain its dome shape if the spell is used to protect against cave-ins.

I can't think of any other 3.5 spell that uses a similar game mechanic.

there is none.

there are a couple spells in the spell compendium, such as shadow form, that give you extra effects if you have some amount of skills, but none dealing with knowledge.

[Afgncaap5]

I let a rogue use a Knowledge (Engineering) check while climbing up and through the Giant Skeleton they were fighting so that it could hit structural significant parts of joints and bones to deal half of his sneak attack damage.

Honestly, I think most of the mechanical benefits of Knowledge skills are supposed to be homebrewed and used with a campaign-to-campaign basis. I've started giving my players enough skill points to max out a single Peform, Craft, Profession or Knowledge check (or put a few points into several) to help minimize the seemingly random nature of which skills will come in handy in which stories, though. It'll be helpful if they have it, but hopefully not story-breaking if they don't.

[Venger]

I let a rogue use a Knowledge (Engineering) check while climbing up and through the Giant Skeleton they were fighting so that it could hit structural significant parts of joints and bones to deal half of his sneak attack damage.
that is delightful. players love to climb monsters. it's nice to throw them a bone with houserules, or they'll have to subsist on hammer and piton.


Honestly, I think most of the mechanical benefits of Knowledge skills are supposed to be homebrewed and used with a campaign-to-campaign basis. I've started giving my players enough skill points to max out a single Peform, Craft, Profession or Knowledge check (or put a few points into several) to help minimize the seemingly random nature of which skills will come in handy in which stories, though. It'll be helpful if they have it, but hopefully not story-breaking if they don't.

sure, that's kinda what we're doing here.

[nedz]

Some Feats which have these skills as a pre-req

Knowledge – architecture & engineering
Combat Engineer (DR334 p88)
Trap Mastery (DR347 p88)

Knowledge – geography
Great Captain (Storm p92)
Pathfinder (DR339 p87)
Pilgrim (DU142 p93)

Knowledge – history
Relic Hunter (RoE p111)

[Story]

Paragnostic Apostle also gives various bonuses with knowledge skill prereqs.

[Thurbane]

Paragnostic Apostle also gives various bonuses with knowledge skill prereqs.

Strangely enough, that is primarily what got me started on posting this thread (reading up on Paragnostic Apostle). :smallsmile:

[Zaq]

Stormwrack makes Knowledge (Geography) a really critical part of navigating a ship. Profession (Sailor) gets you from Point A to Point B, but it's Knowledge (Geography) that makes Point B not actually Point Q.

I once played in a seafaring campaign where the navigator, despite having a pretty decent bonus to K: Geography, could not roll well on a navigation check to save his life. Of course, the check was always made secretly (for exactly this reason), but we never managed to smoothly go where we actually wanted to go. It was both entertaining and incredibly frustrating. But if it was that bad with a decent K:Geography score, I can only imagine how horrible it would be if the navigator had only a single token "I'm trained, really!" rank.

[torrasque666]

Knowledge (History) is needed for the rituals for the 9 Blades of the Sublime Way. Actually, its for Legacy Items in general.

[BWR]

These are the fun skills that are really useful in my games. You have the boring 'know something about a monster' sklls and then you have the 'know **** about the world in general'.

K. (architecture & engineering)
- identifying weak points on structures to know how to best bring them down or keep them from being brought down, (sappers, siege engineers)
- determine whether or not your contractors are doing their jobs properly or screwing your over

K. Geography
- Survival lets you find your way back to where you started and keeps you going in the right direction. This skill lets you know where you are going. Need to know which way to go in order to get from Karameikos to Sindh? That's geography.
- also lets you make some rolls that might be history or politics. (knowledge of a region and its history). You might know that a region is hotly contested between neighboring powers.

K. history
- learn who's who in a region, identify old writings and art styles, determine who owned what when. find out what sort of conversation subjects are best avoided or how to approach them, discern patterns in life, flatter someone with knowledge of their illustrious ancestor, impress old-timers (elves, dwarves, etc.) with your knowledge of (and respect for) the time when they were young. Really, if you can't think of a good way to use history in a non-combat setting you aren't thinking hard enough or your GM is being mean.

K. nobs & roys
- know who leaders are, power and political structures in countries, goals and antipathies. This, along with more popular skills like Diplomacy, Bluff and Sense Motive is an absolute must for anything vaguely political.
- can also be used in place of Diplomacy for certain things, like correct forms of address for people

In my games I allow several skills to be used for the same purpose at different DCs. E.g. you want to find out about the Gestalt War, a war that happened 200 years ago. K. History is an obvious choice (DC 10), but you might remember that Gerard the Good was crowned following this war and thanks to that you remember other facts (K. Nobs & roys DC 15). It was also this time the schism in the Hextor church occurred and influenced the struggle (K. religion DC 20). Due to the war many new fortresses were built and certain corners had to be cut leading to a specfic style of fortification (K. arch & eng DC 30), The major battle happened in the neighboring village (K. local DC 18) and that the powerful mage Zordar the Reaper's magic (K. arcana DC 27) deformed a large area with treacherous terrain (K. geography). In my games K. Local is one of the most versatile and useful skills you can have because it can be used for just about everything related to the are selected - but then it is restricted to the area selected. The more specific an area chosen, the lower the DC for things is.

[ShurikVch]

Astral Caravan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralCaravan.htm) power require Knowledge (the planes) checks in order to get to the destination

Detect Dragonblood spell allow to make Knowledge (arcana) check "to determine whether the aura is of the dragon type or the dragonblood subtype"

[Thurbane]

Astral Caravan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralCaravan.htm) power require Knowledge (the planes) checks in order to get to the destination

Detect Dragonblood spell allow to make Knowledge (arcana) check "to determine whether the aura is of the dragon type or the dragonblood subtype"
Knowledge (arcana) and (the planes) are pretty useful skills anyway.

[atemu1234]

Can Knowledge (Architecture) be used to tell where exactly rocks will fall and cause omnicide?