New Player Getting Into AD&D 2e

[Centik]

So, I recently moved to Hawaii and decided that playing D&D online wasn't cutting it. I went to a FLGS nearby and decided that I liked it and had a chat with one of the owners. After a bit of chit-chat, he told me that he was planning on DMing a 2nd Edition game and said that I am welcome to join.

I love the idea of playing one of the earlier systems, yet I haven't read up on it much. So, my fellow playgrounders, any advice for a fairly new player getting into AD&D with only pathfinder and 5e experience?

[LibraryOgre]

So, I recently moved to Hawaii and decided that playing D&D online wasn't cutting it. I went to a FLGS nearby and decided that I liked it and had a chat with one of the owners. After a bit of chit-chat, he told me that he was planning on DMing a 2nd Edition game and said that I am welcome to join.

I love the idea of playing one of the earlier systems, yet I haven't read up on it much. So, my fellow playgrounders, any advice for a fairly new player getting into AD&D with only pathfinder and 5e experience?

If you don't have any 2e books, look for "For Gold and Glory", a 2e retroclone, which will give you a fair bit of background to work with. However, 2e has a bit of problem... saying "I'm running a 2e game" can mean a huge variety of things... far more, in many ways, than what running a 3e game can mean.

Are you using core only? Are you tossing in the Complete Handbooks? What about Player's Options? The three result, in many ways, in very different games.

In the core game, you've got very broad character concepts... a "fighter" might include an archer, a knight, a mercenary warrior, or a clansman from a barbarian tribe. You make that character partially through NWP selections, but mostly through role-playing. There's very little mechanical support for concepts in a core game; you build you character to your concept, play them to the concept, and use pretty much the same rules of other folks. In a core rules game, the sell-sword Bronn, the young nobleman Robb Stark, and Khal Drogo all use the same class.

In the Complete Handbooks, character concepts become a lot narrower, but remain relatively static. If you want to make an Archer, there's an archer kit you can take, which makes you a great archer. But that kit is like devoting a few levels to a prestige class... you're likely losing some things in that specialization. A thief can be an Adventurer kit, a Swashbuckler, an Assassin... all of which have an impact on the core class. Bronn may have a kit that represents his rough life and mercenary attitude; perhaps the Myrmidion class of the professional warrior. Robb Stark probably has a Noble Kit, which affords him with a lot of money to start and contacts. Khal Drogo may be a Barbarian kit (which gets very strong reaction rolls, both positive and negative), or he may be a beast rider, who gets bonuses when mounted.

In the Player's Option games, things get a lot different. You can customize your characters a lot (though fighters, perhaps, a bit less). Khal Drogo probably dropped a lot his armor proficiency... might not even be able to use shields (can't recall if they do). He's dropped a lot of points into being a master rider, and might have picked up animal empathy trait. Bronn probably got rid of his ability to attract followers... he's a sellsword, and that's not his way... but perhaps picked up the skill to master multiple weapons, or an increased HD, or put some into Move Silently. Robb may have also sold off his ability to pick up followers (since he's going to get some for growing up), but he likely took abilities specifically in leadership and warfare. Since this is Player's Options, they may have even spent their racial abilities differently. Perhaps Bronn picked up a Health bonus, or a bonus HP, or an XP bonus. Robb may have gotten an attack bonus with Greatswords, since he was going to grow up to use Ice. Drogo, who doesn't wear armor, might have had picked up Tough Hide, meaning he doesn't need armor but is counted as wearing leather... or maybe a Balance bonus, since he grew up on horseback.

The thing to realize is that, while leveling in PF may represent a new ability or set of abilities, this is much less often the case with 2e. Character "builds", as they are, tend to be static (though PO opens the option buying class abilities as you level, if the GM is up to it).

[Centik]

In the Player's Option games, things get a lot different. You can customize your characters a lot (though fighters, perhaps, a bit less). Khal Drogo probably dropped a lot his armor proficiency... might not even be able to use shields (can't recall if they do). He's dropped a lot of points into being a master rider, and might have picked up animal empathy trait. Bronn probably got rid of his ability to attract followers... he's a sellsword, and that's not his way... but perhaps picked up the skill to master multiple weapons, or an increased HD, or put some into Move Silently. Robb may have also sold off his ability to pick up followers (since he's going to get some for growing up), but he likely took abilities specifically in leadership and warfare. Since this is Player's Options, they may have even spent their racial abilities differently. Perhaps Bronn picked up a Health bonus, or a bonus HP, or an XP bonus. Robb may have gotten an attack bonus with Greatswords, since he was going to grow up to use Ice. Drogo, who doesn't wear armor, might have had picked up Tough Hide, meaning he doesn't need armor but is counted as wearing leather... or maybe a Balance bonus, since he grew up on horseback.

The customization options sound amazing for what I'm looking for in a game. So it's kinda' like the GURPS creation where it's very open-ended and allows for many choices and decisions to specify what you want your character to be?

I'm not sure what books he plans on running, but when I head over this coming Wednesday for D&D Encounters I'll ask him what he has in mind. I do know, however, that the setting will be planescape (One of my favorites).

[LibraryOgre]

The customization options sound amazing for what I'm looking for in a game. So it's kinda' like the GURPS creation where it's very open-ended and allows for many choices and decisions to specify what you want your character to be?

I'm not sure what books he plans on running, but when I head over this coming Wednesday for D&D Encounters I'll ask him what he has in mind. I do know, however, that the setting will be planescape (One of my favorites).

Not so much like GURPS, and more like Star Wars: Saga.

Let us say you're making a dwarven fighter/thief. As a dwarf, you get a pool of points with which to purchase natural abilities. You might go with the standard "resist magic/mining abilities/bonus to hit orcs/bonus to AC v. giants/infravision", or you might drop one or more of those in order to get something else... a bonus with axes or with hammers or what have you. If you like, you can carry over 5 of those points to class creation.

You then create your fighter class. You get a pool of points to spend on fighter-like abilities, but you can't (by the rules) dip into ranger, thief, or wizard abilities... just the ones available to fighters. Since you're a fighter/thief, you may say "Hey, I'm going to cripple my armor use, since I can't use lots of armor as a thief, anyway." It gets you more points to spend on fighter things... maybe buying the Move Silently Fighter option, so you don't have to buy it later.

Because you now create your thief class, buying a suite of abilities to represent "your" thief. There's the standard array, but you might say "I never use pick pockets, I'm not going to buy it. Instead, I'll get Tunnelling" or beef up your Backstab options, or whatever.

On top of this, you might layer one of S&P's kits (which adjust the cost of some advantages and proficiencies, in addition to providing a minor bonus and penalty), and a lot of other options. It's not GURPS-like complete freedom, but it provides mechanical support to a lot more character concepts.

[Centik]

On top of this, you might layer one of S&P's kits (which adjust the cost of some advantages and proficiencies, in addition to providing a minor bonus and penalty), and a lot of other options. It's not GURPS-like complete freedom, but it provides mechanical support to a lot more character concepts.

Man, I really like the sound of that. It makes me a bit sad that the whole process has kinda' dumbed down since.

[LibraryOgre]

I'm not as familiar with 5e, but 3.x always felt to me like I was trying to make my character every level. I was working towards a mechanical concept which would support my character concept. In AD&D, there simply wasn't the mechanical support for some character concepts... you either carved the character concept out of what was mechanically supported, or you came up with a concept that would work. But once you had that concept, you didn't have to build to it... a 1st level character could do everything a 13th level character could do... just not as well, not as often, or not as long.

[Anonymouswizard]

Being in the wanting to get into 2e camp, I thought I'd ask this thread what alternate magic systems it has, especially ritual magic, because unless I'm running Dark Sun (and even then slightly) vancian magic just doesn't feel thematic.

Also, what monster books are recommended? I managed to pick up a non black cover PHP and DMG, but other than picking up the Dark Sun books if I can, I'm not sure what's worth buying.

[Jay R]

Tell your DM you have no experience with 2E, and ask his help designing a character. He's the only one who knows what options are available, and it really helps to have a character design that the DM approves of.

[Centik]

Tell your DM you have no experience with 2E, and ask his help designing a character. He's the only one who knows what options are available, and it really helps to have a character design that the DM approves of.

Nooby Side Question: Since I'm very much a noob when it comes to IRL RPGs, is this a common occurrence? Do people normally roll up characters with their DM before games? My experience comes from playing with a group of friends online and rolling up sheets on my own.

[LibraryOgre]

Being in the wanting to get into 2e camp, I thought I'd ask this thread what alternate magic systems it has, especially ritual magic, because unless I'm running Dark Sun (and even then slightly) vancian magic just doesn't feel thematic.

The Spells and Magic book has some variants on the systems that are worth looking at.


Also, what monster books are recommended? I managed to pick up a non black cover PHP and DMG, but other than picking up the Dark Sun books if I can, I'm not sure what's worth buying.

All you really need is the Monstrous Manual.


Nooby Side Question: Since I'm very much a noob when it comes to IRL RPGs, is this a common occurrence? Do people normally roll up characters with their DM before games? My experience comes from playing with a group of friends online and rolling up sheets on my own.

Seen it pretty often, especially when folks are new.

[Jay R]

Nooby Side Question: Since I'm very much a noob when it comes to IRL RPGs, is this a common occurrence? Do people normally roll up characters with their DM before games? My experience comes from playing with a group of friends online and rolling up sheets on my own.

For lots of groups, the first meeting is rolling up characters together. I prefer to have a few days back-and-forth by email with the DM, checking ideas with him.

There is an old legal maxim: "Any lawyer knows the law. A good lawyer knows the exceptions. A great lawyer knows the judge."

Similarly, any player knows the base rules. A good player knows the splat books. A great player knows the DM.

If the DM tells you that you will need the Spellcraft skill, take it. If he says you won't need Riding, then don't waste points on it.

A character idea that the DM really likes will work better in that DM's game than a character idea that the DM doesn't like.

[Anonymouswizard]

Nooby Side Question: Since I'm very much a noob when it comes to IRL RPGs, is this a common occurrence? Do people normally roll up characters with their DM before games? My experience comes from playing with a group of friends online and rolling up sheets on my own.

In my experience it's common, as normally only the GM owns the book. The only time it doesn't happen in my experience is if a character has to be replaced, at which point I'll be talking to the GM almost every day as I make a new one, so that it still fits. But I've found that it creates better party cohesion, as you won't end up with a party of 1st level magic users or the like.


The Spells and Magic book has some variants on the systems that are worth looking at.

Cool, I'll check it out, any of them really good, or completely broken? I'll check Amazon when I have money.

Also, is that part of Player's Options? If so, are there other books from the group worth checking out (I've heard that Skills and Powers has problems).


All you really need is the Monstrous Manual.

Cool, again I'll check Amazon next time I have money free.

[LibraryOgre]

Cool, I'll check it out, any of them really good, or completely broken? I'll check Amazon when I have money.

Also, is that part of Player's Options? If so, are there other books from the group worth checking out (I've heard that Skills and Powers has problems).

Honestly don't recall. We didn't use them... by the time S&M came out, I was in college, and my regular group used another system, my group at home was on a "extremely core rules" kick, and I just thought some of them were neat.

It is part of PO, and PO is a bit of a mixed bag. IMO...

C&T had some great ideas, though their new initiative system was not one of them. S&P had some good ideas, but I think the rules were, overall, pretty poor. The best part is the proficiency rules.

[Lord Torath]

Being in the wanting to get into 2e camp, I thought I'd ask this thread what alternate magic systems it has, especially ritual magic, because unless I'm running Dark Sun (and even then slightly) vancian magic just doesn't feel thematic.

Also, what monster books are recommended? I managed to pick up a non black cover PHP and DMG, but other than picking up the Dark Sun books if I can, I'm not sure what's worth buying.You'll also want the Complete Psionics Handbook, Dragon Kings, and The Will and the Way for running the psionics portion. The psionics mechanics in the Player's Option books have the drawback that the psionic attacks inflict more damage on the attacker than the defender, and nerf almost all the telepathic powers.

[EmperorDrothan]

Also, is that part of Player's Options? If so, are there other books from the group worth checking out (I've heard that Skills and Powers has problems).

The Skills and Powers book is the one with the a la carte class ability options listed upthread. It's got a lot of good stuff in it, but it also has some sketchy and broken stuff too. I advise picking and choosing from it carefully. It does have psionics rules, but these are a bit different from the ones in the Psionics Handbook.

Spells and Magic has some pretty cool alternative magic systems, some of which might feel better to you. I don't know what feel you're looking for, but there's a spell points option, channelling (as per Wheel of Time), defiling and preserving (as per Dark Sun), Warlocks and Witches (pacts with eldritch beings), and Alienists and Summoners (kind of Lovecraftian). Maybe one of them will work for you.

As mentioned in the very first post, For Gold & Glory can be found here (http://www.lulu.com/shop/justen-brown/for-gold-glory/ebook/product-21832476.html).

[Anonymouswizard]

The Skills and Powers book is the one with the a la carte class ability options listed upthread. It's got a lot of good stuff in it, but it also has some sketchy and broken stuff too. I advise picking and choosing from it carefully. It does have psionics rules, but these are a bit different from the ones in the Psionics Handbook.

Thanks to a friend I've already learnt the Psionics Handbook system, so that's what I would be using for any campaigns. I'll pick up Skills and Powers at some point though, because I can then at least create better custom races and classes than the system in the DMG.


Spells and Magic has some pretty cool alternative magic systems, some of which might feel better to you. I don't know what feel you're looking for, but there's a spell points option, channelling (as per Wheel of Time), defiling and preserving (as per Dark Sun), Warlocks and Witches (pacts with eldritch beings), and Alienists and Summoners (kind of Lovecraftian). Maybe one of them will work for you.

Pacts and Summoners sound like exactly the magic I'm looking for with my setting, and I'll see how the defiling and preserving rules compare to the Dark Sun ones. I've heard the spell points system is unbalanced though.


As mentioned in the very first post, For Gold & Glory can be found here (http://www.lulu.com/shop/justen-brown/for-gold-glory/ebook/product-21832476.html).

If that was directed at me, I think I looked at it a while ago, and found it to be decent, but not really grabbing my imagination.

[EmperorDrothan]

I'll see how the defiling and preserving rules compare to the Dark Sun ones. I've heard the spell points system is unbalanced though.

It looks like the defiling and preserving rules are quite a bit more involved in Spells & Magic than in the Dark Sun rules (I see no difference between the original and revised versions of the Dark Sun rules, though). The Spells & Magic version assumes the use of spell points and has rules for gathering these spell points from the surrounding plant life, which in turn influence the initiative modifiers used when casting the spells. I'd stick to the Dark Sun rules myself, but it looks like you can do some cool stuff with the Skills & Powers rules.


If that was directed at me, I think I looked at it a while ago, and found it to be decent, but not really grabbing my imagination.

Nah, it wasn't directed at you in particular. I just figured that the book was mentioned and I had the link on hand, so I'd post it.

[JAL_1138]

Before digging into which books to buy beyond a suitable retroclone (the previous edition--NOT the basic and full current editions--of Hackmaster will sort of work in a pinch if you ignore the Honor system) or a PHB, check with the DM of your game to see what's being allowed. The Player's Option series were somewhat divisive and are not the standard, as were a few of the Complete Guide to X or Complete X's Handbook series (Complete Elves I recall being troublesome, though it's been years and I don't remember specifics).

If it's a low level campaign, either be extremely cautious or don't get particularly attached to a character; they die a lot :smalltongue: (well, depending on whether you roll 1st-level HP and die instantly at 0hp or not, neither of which is guaranteed, though I forget if variations from that were official rule options or common houserules). Either way it gets quite a bit better about that a few levels in.

The degree of modularity goes beyond even which splats / POs are allowed. There are variant systems for initiative, weapon speed factor, weapon versus armor, how reach weapons work, how spells are cast, whether a specialist wizard chooses what spell they learn at level up, and skills in the PHB, and which ones get used can have a big impact on the feel of the game and the effectiveness of a build.

So talk with the DM and see which splats if any are allowed, which core-rules variants they're using, and what their houserules are.

In any event, welcome to 2e, one of the greatest gaming systems of all time. I hope your experience with it is as enjoyable and memorable as mine were. :smallsmile:

[ScrivenerofDoom]

If you can, find the Core Rules CD-ROM. It might be hard to believe considering how WotC has botched every chargen programme it has ever attempted but TSR actually did a great job with their outsourced 2E version. It also has most of the 2E books in .RTF format.


(snip) Also, what monster books are recommended? I managed to pick up a non black cover PHP and DMG, but other than picking up the Dark Sun books if I can, I'm not sure what's worth buying.

This is a great site (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/_contents.php) for 2E monsters. It has basically ever published for 2E. (NB: These are not pirated PDFs or anything like that. It's just a fan site that's been around for a decade or more.)

I also really liked the four Monstrous Compendium annuals for 2E. Each was about 128 pages and had some great art as well as some monsters I personally would not go without.