Unchained Intimidating Barbarian

[punchbeard]

There are discussions over the "intimidate build" for barbarians, but I haven't seen any yet that incorporate the modifications from Unchained. I bring this up because the rage mechanics are slightly changed, and the Intimidating Glare rage power is better.

In Unchained, rather than boost STR and CON, raging just gives +2 to melee attacks, melee/thrown damage, Will saves, and the extra HP is counted as temporary HP. The tradeoff? CMD and STR-based skills no longer get that +2 boost.

However, Intimidating Glare changed to substitute STR bonus for CHA for all Intimidate checks while raging, and the Shaken effect has the duration of the rage. The Terrifying Howl rage power makes all shaken enemies (who fail a Will save) become panicked. Unchained rage powers also include defense-boosting stances, such as increased DR, AC, or HP regeneration.

Therefore, I propose this build:
* Invest 1 point in Intimidate skill per level, from either the INT+4 skills or favored class bonus.
* Feats: Intimidating Prowess, Power Attack, Cornugon Smash, Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display.
* Rage Powers: Beast Totems (all 3), Intimidating Glare, a defense-based Stance, Terrifying Howl.

During a rage, your roll to Intimidate is 1d20 + 3 + Level + CHA + 2xSTR. This will succeed in most cases. Here's the strategy for when you rage:
First, 5-ft step (to avoid AOO) and Dazzling Display, so most enemies nearby get shaken. If any enemies somehow pass the check, a power attack next turn gives you a free Intimidate check; the DC increases, but your absurd Intimidate bonus should overcome that. Even if you beat the DC by 1, they're shaken for the rest of your rage.
On the next turn, Terrifying Howl panics most (if not all) of your already shaken victims, so they can't attack for a bit, and they may also trigger AOOs from your teammates when they flee. This all happens in 2-3 turns.
For any enemies out of your 30-foot range, charge and pounce with a power attack that probably passes the intimidate check. Then repeat this process as desired; combat will probably end before your rage does.

Yes, Raging Vitality is absent. With Invulnerable Rager from APG, you get DR worth half your level, and 2x that much vs. nonlethal damage. You get +CON+d12 HP per level, ending a rage doesn't cause additional HP loss, Beast Totem gives extra AC, and you can pick a defensive stance bonus. Raging Vitality isn't really necessary here.

Feedback and comments, please?

[Extra Anchovies]

Looks good, and it's a non-initiating melee build actually does something interesting instead of rolling dice and performing addition a few times per round. Thanks for tossing it together, I'll be hanging on to this one.

[punchbeard]

Hold on, I think I made a mistake. There are two very obvious flaws:
1. Dazzling Display only works against enemies who can see you, and is useless against single enemies.
2. Using Dazzling Display and Terrifying Howl means giving up 2 turns where you could have attacked.

Oops. It still works, but it's not super-efficient.

[Extra Anchovies]

Hold on, I think I made a mistake. There are two very obvious flaws:
1. Dazzling Display only works against enemies who can see you, and is useless against single enemies.
2. Using Dazzling Display and Terrifying Howl means giving up 2 turns where you could have attacked.

Oops. It still works, but it's not super-efficient.

DD is worth hanging on to for Shatter Defenses. Even characters without sneak attack like to remove enemy Dex to AC.

[Andreaz]

Also note Unlocked Intimidate. Rank 10 and further you start taking more actions from the enemy more than you'll spend (rank 10 forces 1d4 rounds of fright before the usual shaken rounds). The DC is pretty high as well, similar to dazing assault's (10+ranks). Good from level 10 onwards if you can reliably demoralize with a wide margin (inquisitors will love this one).

[grarrrg]

Bad news.

* Feats: Intimidating Prowess
* Rage Powers:Intimidating Glare

Does not stack as per the FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9sgk)
Both "add STR", and you can't get the same-stat-to-thing twice.


During a rage, your roll to Intimidate is 1d20 + 3 + Level + CHA + 2xSTR.
This is also incorrect, as Intimidating Glare _replaces_ CHA with STR, so you would not add CHA at all.

This also puts you in a weird place, as taking Intimidating Prowess and NOT Glare, would get you CHA+STR to your roll, but you want Terrifying Howl which requires Glare (and Glare, as written, is not optional).


On the bright side, you missed Disheartening Display (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/disheartening-display-combat), which is an alternative to Terrifying Howl.

[Yanisa]

Does not stack as per the FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9sgk)
Both "add STR", and you can't get the same-stat-to-thing twice.

This is also incorrect, as Intimidating Glare _replaces_ CHA with STR, so you would not add CHA at all.

Like you pointed out, you aren't adding strength twice. You replace your charisma with strength and then add strength on top of it. It's a very different case that is not in the FAQ. It's similar enough to say the RAI of the FAQ would be still against it, but it's an odd side case.

[grarrrg]

Like you pointed out, you aren't adding strength twice. You replace your charisma with strength and then add strength on top of it. It's a very different case that is not in the FAQ. It's similar enough to say the RAI of the FAQ would be still against it, but it's an odd side case.

Agreed that the FAQ is kinda vague, but given the RAW wording, you can't get STR twice, period.

RAI, maybe.
But in any case, you are not getting CHA+STR+STR.

[punchbeard]

But in any case, you are not getting CHA+STR+STR.

Whoops, my mistake! The RAW and RAI for Unchained should both agree that CHA is excluded during a rage. But, I'm still fairly certain you get 2xSTR.

Intimidating Prowess: "Add your Strength modifier to Intimidate skill checks in addition to your Charisma modifier." There we have our CHA+STR.
Intimidating Glare (Unchained): "The barbarian adds her Strength modifier in place of her Charisma modifier on all Intimidate checks to demoralize a foe." So you subtract CHA and add STR.

RAW supports this, and I don't see why RAI wouldn't support this too. If you're spending 1+ feat and 1+ rage power, you should end up with a useful payoff. I agree that the FAQ is vague, but I see "in addition to" and "in place of" as separate calculations. Mathematically, yes, you add twice, but I don't think the FAQ refers to this. Otherwise, Intimidating Prowess is useless for this build.

[punchbeard]

Alright, so suppose that based on the FAQ, the RAI prevents the effective 2xSTR. This would mean that if you took Intimidating Prowess and Intimidating Glare, raging would cause your Intimidate to decrease by your CHA modifier.

This would mainly be useful for builds with a negative CHA modifier, since then you're subtracting a negative and it increases anyway. Unless there's another RAI against that.

[grarrrg]

The FAQ's entire purpose is to prevent "double dipping" (or triple dipping).
I personally agree that "replaces" and "adds to" should still be different things, but that is not how the FAQ is worded.


Alright, so suppose that based on the FAQ, the RAI prevents the effective 2xSTR. This would mean that if you took Intimidating Prowess and Intimidating Glare, raging would cause your Intimidate to decrease by your CHA modifier.

What?
Intimidate is normally +CHA
Glare replaces CHA with STR, so you have +STR
Prowess adds STR, so you have +STR+STR
The FAQ says "no doubles" so you are left with just +STR.

I don't see how you can come to a conclusion that you would -CHA in there.

[Ellowryn]

The thing is non-rage intimidate (with intimidating prowess) is +STR +CHA, but when he rages He would instead get +STR +STR which would then drop to just +STR. So you would thereby lose whatever bonus you would have from CHA.

Yes he worded it weird, but his point is valid.

[punchbeard]

I don't see how you can come to a conclusion that you would -CHA in there.

I was specifically referring to the combination of Intimidating Prowess and Intimidating Glare.
Prowess: CHA modifier + STR modifier.
Glare: STR modifier + STR modifier, which then becomes just STR modifier.

So you're not subtracting the CHA modifier, you're just losing it during the rage. This helps characters with negative CHA modifiers.

[grarrrg]

Yes he worded it weird, but his point is valid.

Ok, that makes sense now.

[punchbeard]

It's been a while since I posted, but I've come up with an edited build.
First I should mention that the "no double STR bonus" is true. This is an established rule. As much as I dislike this rule, the terrorbarian build can still work around it. Intimidating Glare lets you demoralize as a move action, and has a reliable effect duration. That's good enough.

Originally, I recommended Weapon Focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/weapon-focus-combat---final) and Dazzling Display (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dazzling-display-combat) as feats to pick. The problem is that you give up at least 2 turns, in addition to the moves required to position yourself in a 30-ft radius crowd. Not worth it for a barbarian. Instead, go with:
* Feats: Power Attack, Intimidating Prowess, Cornugon Smash, Cleave, Great Cleave.
* Rage Powers: Lesser Beast Totem, Intimidating Glare, Beast Totem, Terrifying Howl, Greater Beast Totem.

This is a much more efficient method of damaging and demoralizing. With a Cornugon Smash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cornugon-smash-combat) and Cleave (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/cleave-combat) combo, you (probably) demoralize with every hit, and (probably) hit multiple enemies per turn. You dish out power attacks, each with a free Intimidate check. If you're surrounded by 3+ enemies, you can cleave the first two then and use your move action to Intimidating Glare (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/intimidating-glare-ex) the third. With Great Cleave (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/great-cleave-combat---final), you get even more special-action hits. After a few turns of dealing damage, Terrifying Howl (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/terrifying-howl-ex) could be a good crowd control tactic, plus I don't think it triggers AOO. I include the Beast Totems because of the scaling AC bonus, as well as pounce.