Tyranids in Star Wars [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Kurgan

2015-05-31, 04:55 AM

Question time, how do you guys think the Tyranids from Warhammer 40k would fare in the Galaxy Far Far Away of Star Wars?

Assume that any abilities that the Tyranids have in the 40k universe works in the Star Wars universe. The Shadow of the Warp makes them slightly difficult for a Jedi to sense, but they are otherwise affected by the Force as normal (ie: force pushing, force lightning, etc).

One big advantage I could see for the people of Star Wars is the fact that none of their technology is Warp dependent, so ships could more easily move around a Hive Fleet, and communications would still be able to traverse the Holonet, etc.

Lets assume three scenarios:

1) A number of Gene-Stealers have managed to find their way into a handful of backwater planets. Not enough to just outright conquer any of these planets, but enough to do the thing Gene-Stealers do: infect people.

2) A splinter Hive Fleet of 30-50 bioships appears in a backwater region of space. While head on a big fleet would be able to destroy the Hive Fleet at this stage, would it be able to build up biomass fast enough to become too big to destroy?

3) A full blown Hive Fleet arrives, say the size of Hive Fleet Behemoth. Once again, it appears in an out of the way region of space. Would any takers be able to destroy this fleet?

In terms of time periods, lets go with three options yet again (all currently canon for simplicity's sake):

A) During the Trade Federation invasion of Naboo of Episode 1, where the Republic is mostly demilitarized, although certain factions within it obviously have personal armies.

B) The height of the Clone Wars. Billions of mass produced robots fighting hundreds of millions of disposable clones and Jedi Knights. In this heavily militarized period involving a huge number of non-biomass building fighters (the droids), can the Tyranids make any headway? Would the Republic and the CIS unite in the face of a common enemy, or would it become a three way war?

C) The height of the Empire. Shortly before the Battle of Yavin, after the destruction of Alderaan. Once again, would the two sides make up and try to work together to fight a common foe? How effective would the Death Star be vs the Tyranids? Would an Imperial fleet backed by the Death Star be able to halt a small Hive Fleet? What of a gargantuan one?

In terms of equivalency, would it be safe to assume a standard blaster/blaster rifle would be the equivalent of a lasgun? Or would a Hot-Shot Lasgun be a better comparison, as blasters are shown killing armored soldiers on a regular basis.

So the overall question is: is the Star Wars galaxy equipped and ready to deal with Tyranids? Or will it go down relatively quickly, mere fodder for the Hive Fleet?

Kantaki

2015-05-31, 05:46 AM

I don't know much about the Tyranids but I will give this a try.

1A) This sounds like a situation a team of Jedi (Lets say two or three masters and their padawans) could solve easily if it is discovered early enough. Even if no Jedi are sended out it should be possible to quarantine the planets/ areas that are infected (or sterilize them if the local are of the ruthless kind). If this should spread the situation would get a bit more difficult but should still be easy to solve.

1B) Same as above but the war might make this lower priority than it should be.

1C) Base Delta Zero (glassing the world from Orbit) would be the Empires most likely reaction if this goes ot of hand. But even there it sounds like something a local garrison or rebelforce should be able to solve.

2A) This could be a bit harder than scenario 1) but while the republic has no military its worlds do. A few local fleets - maybe under a Jedis/ Republic officers command - should be able to solve this.

2B) I see no reason the Republic or the CIS should have a problem with solving this.

2C) Same as 2B). I don't see the Empire having greater difficulties with this. The Rebellion could have a harder time but should be able to win as well.

3A) I think this might be a definite win for the Tyranids. Even if the Republic wins it would be a phyrric victory.

3B)C) I'm going to answer the same for those. If the mayor factions cooperate they would win. At least for B) this is likely since the Clone Wars are Palpatines game of Solitaire. And even Empire and Rebellion should agree on a ceasefire in the face of this threat. If they don't work together the result would be similar to 3A) but less catastrophic for the Galaxy far far away.

Razade

2015-05-31, 05:56 AM

The biggest question is does the WARP exist? Because if not then they Hive Fleets are moving to slow to be a threat before a fleet of Star Destroyers or equivalent come in and blast them at range.

GloatingSwine

2015-05-31, 06:25 AM

Scenario 1: Genestealer infestation/hybridisation takes several generations to play out, so it would be similar in any period (indeed if started in the first there would still only be second generation hybrids in the last).

Given the much wider diversity of the Star Wars universe, this probably all goes Stealer, because what's one more weirdo alien?

So they do their thing, start local infestation, hybrids show up, sabotage planetary defenses for an incoming hive fleet.

Until the actual hive fleets show up and people know what an infestation is about, it won't be effectively countered. Once it is then people will be more alert for it and so chances of success drop dramatically (especially given the timescale).

Scenarios 2 and 3 do most damage during the Trade Federation era and scale down as time goes on. The firepower of Star Wars military ships is roughly equivalent to that in 40k, but they have much greater strategic mobility, so they can concentrate military efforts better on stopping the hive fleet tendrils from reaching planets. (Hive fleet FTL is very slow, Star Wars FTL is very fast).

A small fleet is probably stopped pretty fast because of that, even private organisations in peacetime like the Trade Federation can put together big enough fleets to counter 30-50 ships.

A full hive fleet will probably be an intermittent problem for years or decades, enough local firepower can be concentrated to protect planets but a hive fleet is too big to take on all at once.

The peacetime republic will suffer the most, many planets close to the fleet's entry point are probably doomed before they militarise, but waves of attacks might be years apart due to the slow speed of Tyranid FTL, and the Republic demonstrated that it could militarise quite quickly (and the people with the battledroid factories and cloning banks are going to make a killing), and I'm sure that ambitious politicians with an agenda for centralised power are going to come to the fore.

Also, if this is happening in the Empire era it almost certainly means the end of the Rebellion, because political support for a strong military government will be at an all time high with the depredations of space locusts, and this probably means building even more death stars.

So, against a hive fleet a few tens of planets get eaten but in the end the real winner is the Emperor, who unites the galaxy and starves the Rebellion of popular support because external threat is the sort of thing that fascist empires thrive on.

The biggest question is does the WARP exist? Because if not then they Hive Fleets are moving to slow to be a threat before a fleet of Star Destroyers or equivalent come in and blast them at range.

Hive fleet FTL doesn't go through the warp anyway, they use some kind of gravitational space folding effect to achieve FTL travel, but it is very slow, which is why they don't mind that a genestealer infiltration takes generations to play out, they're not in a rush to be anywhere.

Brother Oni

2015-05-31, 06:30 AM

1) A number of Gene-Stealers have managed to find their way into a handful of backwater planets. Not enough to just outright conquer any of these planets, but enough to do the thing Gene-Stealers do: infect people.

Except that one genestealer, left alone for long enough, will infect enough people (or put enough hybrids into positions of power) that the entire planet will fall or at least be crippled by a planetwide civil war.

Killer Angel

2015-05-31, 06:33 AM

3) A full blown Hive Fleet arrives, say the size of Hive Fleet Behemoth. Once again, it appears in an out of the way region of space. Would any takers be able to destroy this fleet?

C) The height of the Empire. Shortly before the Battle of Yavin, after the destruction of Alderaan. Once again, would the two sides make up and try to work together to fight a common foe? How effective would the Death Star be vs the Tyranids? Would an Imperial fleet backed by the Death Star be able to halt a small Hive Fleet? What of a gargantuan one?

Let's see....
This scenario gives the Imperial Government a massive and obvious outside threat to rally against. The Tyranid's are now going to be slammed into by 25000+ Imperial Star Destroyers.
Of course, Hive Fleet Behemot is HUGE, but SW universe can deploy a really massive fire power.
In the end, SW wins.

GloatingSwine

2015-05-31, 06:47 AM

Yes, imagine how quickly you can get your Death Stars built if you don't have to build them in absolute secrecy because the galactic public is worried that you don't have enough planet destroying superweaons yet.

This scenario, given the timescales of a Tyranid fleet being quite long, runs into the big differences between the Galactic Empire and the Imperium of Man. Because Hyperspace is so much faster and more reliable than Warp travel, the Galactic Empire is a more centralised organisation with more reliable interstellar trade (not the mobile fiefdoms of Rogue Traders), which can much more easily concentrate its industrial output towards a particular task.

The greatest example is the second Death Star, bigger and more capable than the first, and built to about 2/3 completion (with weapon systems in place and active) in absolute secrecy within three years in the middle of nowhere (meaning that for every Imperial Credit spent on building it three were probably spent keeping it secret).

If that didn't have to be secret, if the tide of public opinion was "more of these, protect us from the space bugs" then hive fleet incursions would probably regularly be met by planetbusting firepower cutting huge swathes through them.

It's not just having the technology to build a Death Star, or a fleet of Star Destroyers, it's having the industrial capacity to build them fast that matters against a slow but large enemy.

Trixie

2015-05-31, 09:44 AM

Assume that any abilities that the Tyranids have in the 40k universe works in the Star Wars universe. The Shadow of the Warp makes them slightly difficult for a Jedi to sense, but they are otherwise affected by the Force as normal (ie: force pushing, force lightning, etc).

One big advantage I could see for the people of Star Wars is the fact that none of their technology is Warp dependent, so ships could more easily move around a Hive Fleet, and communications would still be able to traverse the Holonet, etc.
But that removes hugest advantage Tyranids have - the fact attacked place has no way to call for help. And even if it can, Imperium sends help slowly, so it arrives two months later to find the planet already nommed. Unless Tyranids can develop holonet jammers, in SW universe call for help in on Coruscant 5 hours later, with whole battlefleet arriving in days at most. Even if they jam holonet, it will attract attention and SW ships are fast enough to do patrols keeping tabs on huge areas.

1) A number of Gene-Stealers have managed to find their way into a handful of backwater planets. Not enough to just outright conquer any of these planets, but enough to do the thing Gene-Stealers do: infect people.
It would probably work until someone notices and develops scanners for alien matter. Unlike IoM, SW Empire actually understands how to make good medical machine, and more importantly, how to adapt it to changing circumstances.

2) A splinter Hive Fleet of 30-50 bioships appears in a backwater region of space. While head on a big fleet would be able to destroy the Hive Fleet at this stage, would it be able to build up biomass fast enough to become too big to destroy?
If it arrives in unknown regions, maybe. Anywhere else, not really. What is lost in vastness of WH 40K timescale, is the fact the hive fleets take centuries to penetrate deep into the galaxy. It's eons in SW scale.

3) A full blown Hive Fleet arrives, say the size of Hive Fleet Behemoth. Once again, it appears in an out of the way region of space. Would any takers be able to destroy this fleet?
Even if not, Tyranids can't really win against war of attrition SW galaxy can throw at it. IoM forge produces one titan per century, SW factory puts together AT-AT in days at worst. Same with droids and clones, IG (except for Krieg) really has nothing on the recruitment scale Empire can bring to bear against real threats.

A) During the Trade Federation invasion of Naboo of Episode 1, where the Republic is mostly demilitarized, although certain factions within it obviously have personal armies.
The Republic still debates the matter in subcommittee of a committee when tyranids arrive on Coruscant 400 years after initial contact, Chancellor is nommed by Hive Tyrant in mid speech calling for removal of unruly public. Jedi, being totally useless, have their genetic connection to the Force examined and applied to Tyranid equivalent of street sweeper drone :smallamused:

B) The height of the Clone Wars. Billions of mass produced robots fighting hundreds of millions of disposable clones and Jedi Knights. In this heavily militarized period involving a huge number of non-biomass building fighters (the droids), can the Tyranids make any headway? Would the Republic and the CIS unite in the face of a common enemy, or would it become a three way war?
That frankly removes other advantage Tyranids have, absurd ability to multiply destroyed biomass like fish and loaves. Depends who they invade, as both sides would probably try to play Tyranids as a weapon and get them to eat civilians of other side. After war ends, they are declared banned rogue bioweapon and exterminated promptly as a propaganda tool to still build up arms.

C) The height of the Empire. Shortly before the Battle of Yavin, after the destruction of Alderaan. Once again, would the two sides make up and try to work together to fight a common foe? How effective would the Death Star be vs the Tyranids? Would an Imperial fleet backed by the Death Star be able to halt a small Hive Fleet? What of a gargantuan one?
As above, most likely. As for DS, it really depends if Tyranids can bypass shields and land on surface, if it they are vaporized en masse by shielding. Planetary shields are third strike against team Tyranid, hive fleet out. Really, if you can prevent 95% of the drop pods landing, even local garrisons would be able to mop up remnants. If Tyranids can disable or penetrate shields somehow, they become much bigger problem and you could see DS use dropped in favour of more numerous capital ships.

In terms of equivalency, would it be safe to assume a standard blaster/blaster rifle would be the equivalent of a lasgun? Or would a Hot-Shot Lasgun be a better comparison, as blasters are shown killing armored soldiers on a regular basis.
The standard description has lasgun somewhat equivalent to civilian blaster pistol. But, in SW galaxy, equivalent of Necron gauss flayers are inexpensive gangster weapons (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/DXR-6_disruptor_rifle) so that's another big point against 'nids.

Grim Portent

2015-05-31, 11:15 AM

As the above posters have said, Tyranids don't do well in Star Wars, they move too slowly between stars, there's too many enemies they can't eat, they can't block communications, and while most vehicles and infantry are actually weaker than 40k analogues (AT-AT compared to Reaver Titan, I know who's got a better shot against a Bio-Titan) there's just so many more of them that numbers favour the Star Wars factions. In theory they should be much stronger 1v1 than most of the common stuff in Star Wars and most of the stuff in the movies, but other than genestealer infestations I can't see Tyranid tactics working well under the circumstances.

Trixie

2015-05-31, 12:19 PM

while most vehicles and infantry are actually weaker than 40k analogues (AT-AT compared to Reaver Titan, I know who's got a better shot against a Bio-Titan)

AT-AT might be "only" equal of Warhound class titan, but the thing is, every single Imperial Star Destroyer has 20 of them on board. Standard fleet of 15 ISD can mass tree hundred of titan class machines, more than strongest concentrations of Titan Legions used in Great Crusade. Also, losses aren't irreplaceable God Machines that took centuries to produce and the replacement won't show in couple of generations. They're more the case of "call Sienar, we're placing order for 50 more, to be delivered in two months". That alone blows every single WH40K titan out of the water, even if they are singularly more powerful. Even Reaver can't deal with more than 3-4 Warhounds, much less 30 or 40, and even that only if it happens to be armed with turbolasers, not laughable weapons like titan grade flamers or power fists.

Then there is the fact that Reavers and bio-titans aren't really opponents for AT-ATs. Empire uses combined arms and they would need to deal with superheavy artillery and bombers first, a concept alien to every single WH40K army except for Tyrant's Legion (and Huron was declared heretic for daring to use IG and Navy assets to support Marines in the field and nearly killed for his trouble). Even largest (bio)titans, like Imperators, aren't really big threat in SW universe as dealing with them would be job for capital class ships in low orbit. You can't look at SW warfare in isolation - they are well capable of building something like IoM, they just prefer lighter, more mobile forces as they are easier to speedily deploy and don't present as tempting target for turbolaser gunners.

Forum Explorer

2015-05-31, 12:51 PM

I was mostly on the side of the whole SW is too unified, too fast, and with too much industrial capabilities for a single Hive Fleet to win, even if the average Bioship is better then an ISD.

However I had a thought, SW has Indicator cruisers right? Those ships that create gravity wells to prevent hyperspace travel?

Tyranids gravity sheath thing that they use to go FTL, actually has the side effect of creating gravity fluctuations in the (planet or solar system) of the target, leading to earthquakes, tidal waves, and other natural disasters.

That does seem to be greater then the impact a Indicator cruiser has with it's gravity device, so I'm thinking that the hyperdrives might be messed up in the system that the Tyranids are headed to semi-isolating them.

Does that work? And does it work enough to make this a win for the Tyranids?

GloatingSwine

2015-05-31, 01:13 PM

That does seem to be greater then the impact a Indicator cruiser has with it's gravity device, so I'm thinking that the hyperdrives might be messed up in the system that the Tyranids are headed to semi-isolating them.

Does that work? And does it work enough to make this a win for the Tyranids?

No, in-system speeds for Star Wars vessels are still too fast. Even dropping out of hyperspace at the edges of a system would allow ships to muster in time to stop planetfall. In-system speeds for 40k ships are pretty slow, interplanetary non-warp travel can take days or weeks, as an example the sublight acceleration of a Lunar class cruiser is 2.5g (according to Lexicanum), whereas even the Death Star has nearly 10g sublight acceleration (based on the time it took to clear a Jupiter sized planet at Yavin) and vessels like Star Destroyers have orders of magnitude greater than that (based on their combat manoeuvres at Endor and in avoiding collision at Tatooine).

Also, the hyperspace disruption of an approaching hive fleet would be an effective early warning system after the first few encounters, allowing probe droids to easily track the fleets and put assets in place to intercept them.

Tiki Snakes

2015-05-31, 03:56 PM

No, in-system speeds for Star Wars vessels are still too fast. Even dropping out of hyperspace at the edges of a system would allow ships to muster in time to stop planetfall. In-system speeds for 40k ships are pretty slow, interplanetary non-warp travel can take days or weeks, as an example the sublight acceleration of a Lunar class cruiser is 2.5g (according to Lexicanum), whereas even the Death Star has nearly 10g sublight acceleration (based on the time it took to clear a Jupiter sized planet at Yavin) and vessels like Star Destroyers have orders of magnitude greater than that (based on their combat manoeuvres at Endor and in avoiding collision at Tatooine).

Also, the hyperspace disruption of an approaching hive fleet would be an effective early warning system after the first few encounters, allowing probe droids to easily track the fleets and put assets in place to intercept them.

Interesting numbers, but I don't really know much about that. A quick google-research doesn't seem to back it up though, at least not easily and without possible counter-points.

Empirical evidence in the X-wing computer game series suggests that, within the context of the games, speed measured in MGLT per hour is roughly equivalent to speed measured in meters per second. For example, flying at a constant speed of 100 MGLT/hour, the time required to pass a stationary MC80a Calamari Cruiser (with a published length of 1200 meters) from bow to stern can be reliably observed at around 12 seconds. Therefore 1 MGLT/hour ≈ 1 meter/second, 3.6 kilometers/hour, and 2.23694 miles per hour. But since such a speed is much slower than what even present-day aircraft can achieve, this conversion ratio is probably not relevant outside the games. This does not account for drift, which would be in effect even if a cruiser was stationary. Even without a precise conversion, MGLT values are useful as a relative comparison of the maximum performance of the different craft.

So, obviously a very vague measure of dubious final-authority, but canon at least in part of the franchise.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090518183931/starwars/images/1/1d/Ilmmglt.jpg

Apparently, this puts most of the fighters we see buzzing around like aeroplanes in space as...slightly slower than regular aeroplanes in atmosphere (but broadly comparable). On the same measure this puts the Death Star as an achingly slow 10 Megalight and Darth Vader's regally drifting Executor a stately 40 megalight.

Numbers on actual speed from the other end are as difficult to get and as hazy, it seems.

There is a rough gauge from BFG. Andy Chambers said the scale was approximately 1cm = 1,000 km and 1 turn as telescoping from 15 minutes at long ranges to about 1-2 minutes at close range.

Going by that as data, we have a Cobra cruising at 30cm normally with a potential theoretical maximum of 54cm if it gets all 6's on All Ahead Full special orders. That equates to about 3,600 km/minute or 1km/sec.

(snip)

As an addition to the original calculations, if one assumes the Cobra example at the smaller time scale of 1 turn = 1 or 2 minutes, we have an upper limit of 900km/sec. The other possible limiting factor on practical battle speed is the ability of the ship's maneuvering thrusters to turn the ship onto a new heading.

(snip)

Addendum:

Scale in Battlefleet Gothic
by Andy Chambers

I'm not sure if I've talked about scale before but here goes anyway. BFG works around an approximate scale of 1cm=1000KM for the planets and other tabletop features. Obviously this means the ship models are massively out of scale, an Imperial cruiser is NOT 9000KM+ long! The scale is basically there as a rule of thumb and I didn't worry about it too much when it came down to setting weapon ranges, ship speeds and so on. These were all done to create the right impression of distance on the tabletop. For example 60cm 'feels' like a long way and 30cm doesn't, the weapon ranges aren't defined by some pseudo-science calaculation of the energy dissipation rate of lasers (fairly obviously ) but to create an interaction between the (massively out of scale) models on the tabletop.

The more interesting question is perhaps how long is a turn, and that one I don't know the answer too - I'd guess somewhere between 15 minutes and an hour (quite likely telescoping so that at long range a turn is an hour but by the time you're within 15 cm its 15 minutes). This would make an attack craft capable of moving 30cm per ordnance phase capable of doing approximately 30-120,000 km/h. I've got no idea if this is realistic for starfighter speeds, or unfeasibly fast, incredibly slow or what , perhaps someone on the list could enlighten us all on this front (don't just tell us what it says it the Star Wars technical manual though!)
So I stand corrected as well. The time scale is 15 minutes to 1 hour. So by that, the aforementioned Cobra at 30cm would be at a maximum battle speed of 2,000 km/min or 33.33 km/sec, with the lower limit at 8.33 km/sec. While Andy Chambers does make the point that this scale isn't a hard calculated to the nearest meter scale, it is nonetheless a scale, and the fixed known objects like planets also go according to this.

Which is a very vague measure of dubious final-authority, but canon at least in part of the franchise.

For the record, a Cobra Class Destroyer is apparently a torpedo-boat type thingy, so small for a big ship and big for a small ship? Something like that.
Regardless, if we go with these two vague measures, our gunship is somewhere between comparable in speed to the average starwars fightercraft up to three times the speed unless I'm missing something.

By comparison, the Tyranids are apparently a relatively slow fleet in Battlefleet Gothic as well as being close range focused, relying on their sheer weight of numbers to dull their losses whilst they close range (and once they are at close range it's their game to lose basically, even amongst 40k factions).

Tvtyrant

2015-05-31, 04:15 PM

Watching battledroids die by the billions would actually make for a hilarious movie. Also we would get to watch Siths vs. Psykers, which could be a movie all its own.

Edit: Apparently the B1 battle droids are fully self-aware, which is somewhat horrifying when you think of the numbers killed. Also that Star Wars computers take up walls, but AI can be fitted into a human skull. They even have robots manually operating computers rather than making the ships intelligent. Star Wars is weird.

GloatingSwine

2015-05-31, 04:27 PM

Interesting numbers, but I don't really know much about that. A quick google-research doesn't seem to back it up though, at least not easily and without possible counter-points.

Onscreen information in the movies was used to produce those numbers. We see things happen which require them to be the case. (also fluff: It takes three weeks for Ghazgkull's fleet to make planetfall after appearing insystem in Armageddon)

The X-Wing games (and Battlefleet Gothic) are irrelevant and demonstrably wrong (if they had been an accurate measure then the entire story of Empire Strikes Back couldn't have happened because the Star Destroyers couldn't have possibly chased the Falcon)

Remember that there is no "top speed" in space (until you are going fast enough for relativity to matter), only acceleration.

Tiki Snakes

2015-05-31, 04:49 PM

I never had much truck with "These numbers were derived from watching the show" kind of calculations. Always seems to produce rather wonky results somehow.
As for the Falcon, I dunno man. It's only 25 MGLT faster than the Executor and only 15 faster than an Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer. Conversely, a standard TIE is 25 faster than it and an interceptor 50 faster than it.

And the numbers on the image chart at least are the ones used by Industrial Light and Magic. We may not know the exactly, straight from the horses mouth context of those numbers, but those were the numbers used to compare ships at the very minimum during the actual filming of Return of the Jedi.

As for there being no top speed in space, there is also no sound and you don't bank to turn. All factually true but little relevance to Star Wars space-travel or combat, you know? X-Wings and TIE Fighters work like planes in a world war film and science can go cry in the corner, that's just how the setting rolls. Similarly, if the only source to have any interest in setting the precedence for how long it takes to move places or how quick you can go in combat for 40k gives me those numbers, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt rather than try and second guess them with real world science because the setting has little use for such things.

And besides, by that Logic, the Tyranids would be unstoppable. They travel between worlds for such ridiculous periods of time, they could easily just spin up a meteor-sized nid-ship to a meaningful fraction of C and ram it into the target planet, hoover up the broken mess that was the planet's biosphere in the aftermath.

But I don't know. What I'm mostly saying is that hard numbers like that, when not specifically calculated beforehand by the creator and explicitly listed after the fact just aren't that meaningful and this is especially true when comparing two franchises whose approach to such things is that they happen at the speed of plot and not an iota quicker or slower. Comparisons between tactics and resources and likely derivable metaphysics and junk like that are much more relevant to my mind.

Which is to say, I don't think it's an easy win via technicality but I'm not entirely sure right now which side I think would hold the advantage in most scenarios. Once you get a Death-Star online and not blown-up by Rebels you're talking a whole different ballgame of course, but I'm not entirely convinced it would be an attractive prospect for anyone to simply leave the Empire in Palpatine's grasp and let him keep a planet-cracker or two simply because a world goes missing every hundred years or something.

The Glyphstone

2015-05-31, 04:52 PM

There might not be a maximum speed in space, but there's a maximum kinetic energy that whatever you're using for particle screens/protection against micro-meteors and cosmic dust particles can effortlessly deflect. I don't think either Star Wars or the Tyranids are going to have to worry about that, though.

Tvtyrant

2015-05-31, 04:55 PM

Tyranids are basically soulless/mindless right? Could a Jedi simply tell one what to do? "This is not the planet you are looking for!"

Edit: Or the Nids add the magic bacteria to all of their troops and run around as jedigaunts.

The Glyphstone

2015-05-31, 04:58 PM

Tiki Snakes

2015-05-31, 04:59 PM

In the context of the warp they have, if I remember at all, something like a tiny tiny fraction of a soul. But their whole thing is that they come in numbers, they form a hive-mind and though individually have no warp power or anything, they are surprisingly immune to it in some ways because of their collective warp presence. Or something like that.

So, uh, probably not? Except, if you could get a sufficiently powerful Jedi to the right place at the right time? Maybe? I could see it working. Specifically because they are almost certainly directed at least mostly by one ship in the fleet. It would be theoretically possible to redirect them if you could redirect that one ship.

You just have to get a sufficiently epic Jedi to the heart of the Tyranid force in question.

EDIT - Midichlorians are an indicator not a thing that grants anything. Not by my understanding, or at least outside of the Darths and Droids setting anyway.

But yeah, under any kind of Warp/Force transparency, it would make sense for the Tyranids to have some kind of collective force-presence and the likely resistance that would come with that.

GloatingSwine

2015-05-31, 05:00 PM

I never had much truck with "These numbers were derived from watching the show" kind of calculations. Always seems to produce rather wonky results somehow. .

You say that, and then you posted something which would mean that the climactic scene in Star Wars of the X-Wings flying around a gas giant to the Death Star would have taken days or months to resolve.

So let's just say I find your lack of common sense... disturbing.

Grim Portent

2015-05-31, 05:02 PM

But the idea of the Hive Mind assimilating midichlorians is kind of scary.

Not if they go all Jedi on us and become monks that revere order. :smalltongue:

Tvtyrant

2015-05-31, 05:03 PM

"We found him in an egg. His midichlorian count was higher than average, and we assumed he was just another alien or mutant. He reached the rank of Jedi Knight in just five short years, his memory and composure beyond anything we had seen before. One day he disappeared, and we never saw him again. But we saw thousands of others, ones identical to him. They stole it from us, our knowledge of the force, and turned it into a weapon pointed back at our throats."

Tiki Snakes

2015-05-31, 05:05 PM

You say that, and then you posted something which would mean that the climactic scene in Star Wars of the X-Wings flying around a gas giant to the Death Star would have taken days or months to resolve.

So let's just say I find your lack of common sense... disturbing.

Speed of plot/Travel by Map.
They clearly don't travel anything like that fast in any of the battles or so on and those numbers stand regardless of the intended scale. If you have the Falcon travelling at some incredible speed, you have to explain how a ship with twice it's "Megalight" number only seems to go a little bit faster, for example.

EDIT - That's actually kinda cool, TVTyrant.

GloatingSwine

2015-05-31, 05:09 PM

Speed of plot/Travel by Map.
They clearly don't travel anything like that fast in any of the battles or so on and those numbers stand regardless of the intended scale. If you have the Falcon travelling at some incredible speed, you have to explain how a ship with twice it's "Megalight" number only seems to go a little bit faster, for example.

Except they blatantly do in all the battles, and in non battle space scenes.. You see regular instances of ships closing to combat very quickly, reaching orbit quickly, passing fixed bodies quickly, travelling from place to place insystem very quickly, and so on.

Have you even watched Star Wars?

Tiki Snakes

2015-05-31, 05:21 PM

GloatingSwine

2015-05-31, 05:28 PM

Sure I have. And on the modern internet, it's trivially easy to jump onto youtube and pull up say, the battle of endor (space only), for eight minutes of X-Wings buzzing around like spitfires.
What Star Wars exactly have you seen where dogfights are happening at meaningful portions of c? :smalltongue:

There's a difference between dismissing your vacuous numbers of "walking pace" and "meaningful portions of c" (though that happens in some of the books, by the way)

Fact remains, X-Wings covered the distance to the Death Star from the surface of Yavin IV in around five minutes, given that they had to fly around what is at the very least a gas giant (and possibly a brown dwarf considering it was able to sustain a close to tropical environment on a moon), they would have to cover at least a couple of hundred thousand kilometres in that five minutes.

Happens on screen, your facile attempts to deny it are not working and are starting to sound like bad faith.

Tiki Snakes

2015-05-31, 05:40 PM

If you say so, man. I just don't see that as a particularly strong example of anything in particular. Especially when compared to the rest of the movie trilogy and the many space-battles we see in them.

Closet_Skeleton

2015-05-31, 05:49 PM

Maybe their guns are really inaccurate so they have to slow down to fight?

But you can't make assumptions about movie time vs in world time. Its implied that it takes days to travel in hyperspace but its mostly glossed over.

If a Hive Fleet attacks through the Unknown Regions, either it gets wiped out by unseen horrors and never appears again or it gets through with that genetic material and everyone is doomed.

GloatingSwine

2015-05-31, 06:03 PM

Maybe their guns are really inaccurate so they have to slow down to fight?

Guns are fired by humans with human reflexes, so the "accuracy" is less relevant to the ability of the pilot to do anything about there being a target.

That's not actually relevant though, because this is a case of "can ships get into position to have a fight if Tyranid gravity sheaths disrupt hyperspace", and the answer is conclusively yes, space travel even without hyperdrive is shown to be very fast on literally every occasion it is shown.

But you can't make assumptions about movie time vs in world time. Its implied that it takes days to travel in hyperspace but its mostly glossed over.

Times are stated though. As the X-Wings launch it's stated that the Death Star is 15 minutes away from firing position, after about 5 minutes of onscreen combat above its surface it's 5 minutes away, ergo the trip there took about five minutes (of which about one is shown on screen).

hamishspence

2015-06-01, 01:17 AM

Fact remains, X-Wings covered the distance to the Death Star from the surface of Yavin IV in around five minutes, given that they had to fly around what is at the very least a gas giant (and possibly a brown dwarf considering it was able to sustain a close to tropical environment on a moon),

Or, the environment was due to the gas giant (with moons) orbiting in the star's habitable zone, rather than heat from the planetoid being the source of the moon's habitability.

Similar principles apply to Endor or Mustafar.

Kurgan

2015-06-01, 04:32 AM

On the topic of flight speed in Star Wars, how far apart are Hoth and Bespin? And how long a period of time does the Falcon take to make the trip? A goodly portion of Empire Strikes Back was Han and company going on a road trip between the locations, but considering the training montages that occur between with Luke and Yoda, it could range anywhere from a few days to several months.

And on that note, when not going ftl, would Tyranids be able to make similar speed to its destinations? Or does 40k canon have a specific max speed listed for them in those regards?

All aside, it seems like the Tyranids would have a hard time of taking on the Star Wars galaxy, due largely to their inability to cut off communications and travel, as well as the fact that Tyranid ftl seems to be several orders of magnitude slower than Star Wars ftl.

A bit of an amendment to the original question posed. As we can see that outside of specific circumstances the Tyranids won't make too much headway, what if they got some small buff? Would they be more effective against the Republic, the CIS, the Empire, etc if the Hive Fleet had faster ftl travel? Still slower than Star Wars say, but it could cross gaps in weeks/months instead of years/decades. Would this give them the power to mow through the galaxy? Or would it just mean another couple dozen dead worlds while whatever factions are in power mobilize?

RCgothic

2015-06-01, 04:35 AM

A Tyranid hive fleet is gigantic. The fleet that attacked Craftworld Iyanden alone numbered tens of thousands, or equivalent to the entire star fleet. The smallest 40k combatant of significance is roughly Star Destroyer sized, and the hive ships mass on a par with Super Star Destroyers. A death star or two are not appropriate weapons to fight such a foe with. The tyranids wouldn't care if it killed a ship a minute. You'd be better off building regular ships.

Star Wars may be a more unified than the Imperium of Man, but it's not even fractionally as militarized as a society that's been fighting total war for ten thousand years.

The entire Star Fleet could probably be concentrated against a Tyranid Hive fleet due to superior speed, but you'd probably be looking at total casualties. In the long term the star wars galaxy could probably prevail as long as the genestealers don't cripple a few key shipyards before they're discovered. But they don't simultaneously need to keep a lid on all the other horrors of the 40k universe.

Brother Oni

2015-06-01, 10:39 AM

A question regarding Star Wars FTL; don't they primarily use hyperspace routes, that is optimal routes between systems where ships are unlikely to collide with something, thus travelling between two systems could be very circuitous even if physically they were very close?

While Tyranid FTL doesn't use the Warp, reading up on the Narvhal's capabilities suggest that only larger obstacles like black holes are obstacles, but they can only arrive on a system's outskirts. Presumably smaller physical objects like asteroid fields get sucked into the compressed gravity corridor and end up being ejected out at the target system.

Depending on the actual routes, the Empire's strategic mobility may be an issue, especially if the hive fleet decides to scatter in multiple directions. If a splinter fleet manages to omnom a couple of backwater moons/planets, they can end up a significant threat to anything but the main Imperial fleet and the longer the Empire ignores these splinter fleets, the more dangerous they become.

Killer Angel

2015-06-01, 01:36 PM

I wonder if the jedi / sith, can feel the arrival of the fleet in SW universe. "I sense a disturbance in the Force..."
that would give more time to prepare.

Rakaydos

2015-06-01, 01:57 PM

I wonder if the jedi / sith, can feel the arrival of the fleet in SW universe. "I sense a disturbance in the Force..."
that would give more time to prepare.
My personal headcanon is that the Force/hyperspace is effect ively the warp, if the warp had been calm and empty since the fall of the rakata.

The Glyphstone

2015-06-01, 01:59 PM

I wonder if the jedi / sith, can feel the arrival of the fleet in SW universe. "I sense a disturbance in the Force..."
that would give more time to prepare.

Only really in the sense of 'something big and really bad is coming' - the Force is rarely very helpful on specific details.

Tiki Snakes

2015-06-01, 02:44 PM

All aside, it seems like the Tyranids would have a hard time of taking on the Star Wars galaxy, due largely to their inability to cut off communications and travel, as well as the fact that Tyranid ftl seems to be several orders of magnitude slower than Star Wars ftl.

A bit of an amendment to the original question posed. As we can see that outside of specific circumstances the Tyranids won't make too much headway, what if they got some small buff? Would they be more effective against the Republic, the CIS, the Empire, etc if the Hive Fleet had faster ftl travel? Still slower than Star Wars say, but it could cross gaps in weeks/months instead of years/decades. Would this give them the power to mow through the galaxy? Or would it just mean another couple dozen dead worlds while whatever factions are in power mobilize?

Actually, their immensely slow but steady pace is potentially a significant advantage in this context. The only adjustment I would make is losing the bit where you specify that the Holo-net would be unaffected unlike 40k psyker-communication. After all, if their bad space juju is so severe that their arrival causes earthquakes and so on, it's hardly a difficult sell that whatever handwavium that makes inter-stellar communication in Star Wars work could be affected as well.

With that in place, you have a faction that turns up out of no-where, (no hyperspace signatures or anything like that), cuts off communications to the system due to "bad weather" and then devours every last trace of biomatter before vanishing, not to be seen again for anything from generations to lifetimes. In that context, they would almost always be a relatively severe flash in the pan incident that would only build up to a pattern much, much later and that would require a meaningful amount of political will to actually do anything about what with there always being things that seemed more immediately pressing when they weren't actively nomming a planet. It would only be when dots get joined and the wider implications actually investigated that you could expect any real response.

At which point, the fleet and it's splinters will have swelled considerably. Remember, the Hive Fleets are instinctively drawn to planets with life on them, but they have no preference for civilized or properly "inhabited" planets. Dagobah is a feast and it has one resident even capable of speech as far as we know, and he only moved there to hide. How many Dagobah's are there out there without Jedi Masters hiding on them?*

*Very few of course as the joke goes, because no Jedi were actually harmed in the fall of the jedi, they just all went into hiding. :smallwink:

A question regarding Star Wars FTL; don't they primarily use hyperspace routes, that is optimal routes between systems where ships are unlikely to collide with something, thus travelling between two systems could be very circuitous even if physically they were very close?

While Tyranid FTL doesn't use the Warp, reading up on the Narvhal's capabilities suggest that only larger obstacles like black holes are obstacles, but they can only arrive on a system's outskirts. Presumably smaller physical objects like asteroid fields get sucked into the compressed gravity corridor and end up being ejected out at the target system.

Depending on the actual routes, the Empire's strategic mobility may be an issue, especially if the hive fleet decides to scatter in multiple directions. If a splinter fleet manages to omnom a couple of backwater moons/planets, they can end up a significant threat to anything but the main Imperial fleet and the longer the Empire ignores these splinter fleets, the more dangerous they become.

I think that they use hyperspace lanes in much the same way we use shipping lanes. Doing so means you are so much less likely to ram into something unexpected, but you totally could just pick a direction and go if you really wanted to. Just that in this case, that means some serious calculations beforehand to reduce the chance of flying through a sun or something. It's not something you'd expect legitimate merchants to do much, but smugglers and space pirates would be used to going off-road pretty often and that means there's plenty of call for military forces to know what they're doing about the same thing.

Only really in the sense of 'something big and really bad is coming' - the Force is rarely very helpful on specific details.

Yeah, I always figured a large part of being strong in the force is learning to let go of the need to understand the details and just trust the thing to guide you. Yeah, given that Obi-Wan was able to sense a single planet being destroyed, I would expect some Jedi to be more than capable of noticing a huge heap of life-forms invading the galaxy, given the sheer incomprehensible size of the fleet and the fact that every last part of it is a living creature.

The whole scenario actually gets pretty complex pretty quickly if you let it play out. Political intrigue, inaction and short sighted bickering are totally things in the setting, but so is rapid military mobilization. Tyranid armies would make short work of the average droid or stormtrooper army, but the Star Wars side of this has access to some special individuals with genuine setting-altering potential due to the role the Force would play in all this. A Death Star would indeed be of questionable use against a Tyranid Fleet but could provide an excellent source of planet-busting exterminatus tactics, which is one of the main defences against Tyranids (deny them biomatter). The mindless advance of the Tyranids could be plotted against and potentially out-maneuvered by the Empire/Republic/Etc, but this is offset surprisingly neatly by how easy it would be for Genestealers to do their work, slipping into society and doing their thing in the shadows.

And over all this the specter of the Force itself. See, the thing with the force is that your potential and your connection to it does seem to be at some level both physical and genetic. It literally runs in families. Tyranids whole thing is sifting through consumed biomatter to sieve out advantageous mutations, as I understand it. The Force/Dark Side dichotomy is down to you and your actions though, rather than being innate to you as a person. So there's real potential depending on what they eat for the Hive Fleet to slowly become more force sensitive or even develop Force-Wielding troops, but with their carnivorous outlook they would almost certainly resonate with the dark side.

Which is to say that Genestealer Cults are already known for lurking in the shadows in dark hooded robes, you're really just one mutation away from clawed multi-armed sith-like cults spreading across the underbelly of society, attempting to lure their space-bug kin to vulnerable planets and getting in cool lightsaber fights.

RCgothic

2015-06-01, 03:00 PM

That would be pretty cool! And the hive fleets certainly have a track record of absorbing the traits of the species they come across - utilising eldar DNA to create powerful Zoanthrope psykers for instance.

Killer Angel

2015-06-01, 03:15 PM

Only really in the sense of 'something big and really bad is coming' - the Force is rarely very helpful on specific details.

Yeah, but probably the alarm bell will be stronger than the "simple" destruction of one planet. :smallwink:

And over all this the specter of the Force itself. See, the thing with the force is that your potential and your connection to it does seem to be at some level both physical and genetic. It literally runs in families. Tyranids whole thing is sifting through consumed biomatter to sieve out advantageous mutations, as I understand it. The Force/Dark Side dichotomy is down to you and your actions though, rather than being innate to you as a person. So there's real potential depending on what they eat for the Hive Fleet to slowly become more force sensitive or even develop Force-Wielding troops, but with their carnivorous outlook they would almost certainly resonate with the dark side.

Well, I HATE the thought of it, but after all, midi-chlorians are microscopic life forms. The higher they are, the higher the Force is.
Once the 'Nids assimilate midi-chlorians, we'll have a new whole level of psychic bond and related powers.

The Glyphstone

2015-06-01, 04:04 PM

Actually, their immensely slow but steady pace is potentially a significant advantage in this context. The only adjustment I would make is losing the bit where you specify that the Holo-net would be unaffected unlike 40k psyker-communication. After all, if their bad space juju is so severe that their arrival causes earthquakes and so on, it's hardly a difficult sell that whatever handwavium that makes inter-stellar communication in Star Wars work could be affected as well.

With that in place, you have a faction that turns up out of no-where, (no hyperspace signatures or anything like that), cuts off communications to the system due to "bad weather" and then devours every last trace of biomatter before vanishing, not to be seen again for anything from generations to lifetimes. In that context, they would almost always be a relatively severe flash in the pan incident that would only build up to a pattern much, much later and that would require a meaningful amount of political will to actually do anything about what with there always being things that seemed more immediately pressing when they weren't actively nomming a planet. It would only be when dots get joined and the wider implications actually investigated that you could expect any real response.

At which point, the fleet and it's splinters will have swelled considerably. Remember, the Hive Fleets are instinctively drawn to planets with life on them, but they have no preference for civilized or properly "inhabited" planets. Dagobah is a feast and it has one resident even capable of speech as far as we know, and he only moved there to hide. How many Dagobah's are there out there without Jedi Masters hiding on them?*

*Very few of course as the joke goes, because no Jedi were actually harmed in the fall of the jedi, they just all went into hiding. :smallwink:

I think that they use hyperspace lanes in much the same way we use shipping lanes. Doing so means you are so much less likely to ram into something unexpected, but you totally could just pick a direction and go if you really wanted to. Just that in this case, that means some serious calculations beforehand to reduce the chance of flying through a sun or something. It's not something you'd expect legitimate merchants to do much, but smugglers and space pirates would be used to going off-road pretty often and that means there's plenty of call for military forces to know what they're doing about the same thing.

Yeah, I always figured a large part of being strong in the force is learning to let go of the need to understand the details and just trust the thing to guide you. Yeah, given that Obi-Wan was able to sense a single planet being destroyed, I would expect some Jedi to be more than capable of noticing a huge heap of life-forms invading the galaxy, given the sheer incomprehensible size of the fleet and the fact that every last part of it is a living creature.

The whole scenario actually gets pretty complex pretty quickly if you let it play out. Political intrigue, inaction and short sighted bickering are totally things in the setting, but so is rapid military mobilization. Tyranid armies would make short work of the average droid or stormtrooper army, but the Star Wars side of this has access to some special individuals with genuine setting-altering potential due to the role the Force would play in all this. A Death Star would indeed be of questionable use against a Tyranid Fleet but could provide an excellent source of planet-busting exterminatus tactics, which is one of the main defences against Tyranids (deny them biomatter). The mindless advance of the Tyranids could be plotted against and potentially out-maneuvered by the Empire/Republic/Etc, but this is offset surprisingly neatly by how easy it would be for Genestealers to do their work, slipping into society and doing their thing in the shadows.

And over all this the specter of the Force itself. See, the thing with the force is that your potential and your connection to it does seem to be at some level both physical and genetic. It literally runs in families. Tyranids whole thing is sifting through consumed biomatter to sieve out advantageous mutations, as I understand it. The Force/Dark Side dichotomy is down to you and your actions though, rather than being innate to you as a person. So there's real potential depending on what they eat for the Hive Fleet to slowly become more force sensitive or even develop Force-Wielding troops, but with their carnivorous outlook they would almost certainly resonate with the dark side.

Which is to say that Genestealer Cults are already known for lurking in the shadows in dark hooded robes, you're really just one mutation away from clawed multi-armed sith-like cults spreading across the underbelly of society, attempting to lure their space-bug kin to vulnerable planets and getting in cool lightsaber fights.

This is how versus threads should be written. Instead of people hunkering down into their trenches of 'Side X wins because of Y, thread over', figure out an interesting scenario pitting the various strength and vulnerabilities against each other.

As for the force-using Tyranids bit - Dark Side Genestealer cults are a good idea, but aren't there also canonical examples of force-using animals? The Vorwhatevers from the planet of the Ysalmiri use the Force to hunt, and I seem to remember something about other big monsters that have Force sensitivity as well. Instead of worrying about the chicken-and-egg problem of midichlorians, could the 'Nids just bypass the whole issue by eating some wild animals tied to the Force and adapting those abilities?

Though on an individual level, Tyranids with force sensitivity aren't that scary, since it takes will to use and most lower organisms are extremely weak-willed on their own. It would get scary for the higher-order command creatures, though, or an entire swarm of weak beasts operating in concert under the influence of the Hive Mind (which would, itself, become the single most powerful Force user in existence, however limited its ability to direct that power might be).

GloatingSwine

2015-06-01, 05:09 PM

Kurgan

2015-06-01, 05:15 PM

As for the force-using Tyranids bit - Dark Side Genestealer cults are a good idea, but aren't there also canonical examples of force-using animals? The Vorwhatevers from the planet of the Ysalmiri use the Force to hunt, and I seem to remember something about other big monsters that have Force sensitivity as well. Instead of worrying about the chicken-and-egg problem of midichlorians, could the 'Nids just bypass the whole issue by eating some wild animals tied to the Force and adapting those abilities?

Though on an individual level, Tyranids with force sensitivity aren't that scary, since it takes will to use and most lower organisms are extremely weak-willed on their own. It would get scary for the higher-order command creatures, though, or an entire swarm of weak beasts operating in concert under the influence of the Hive Mind (which would, itself, become the single most powerful Force user in existence, however limited its ability to direct that power might be).

Huh, that is an interesting thought. There are also lots of creatures in the Star Wars universe that are resistant or completely immune to the force, like the Terentatek. Ysalamir actually create a bubble in which the Force is completely nullified as well.

I could see the Hive Fleet showing up to different planets every 5-50 years, completely surprising the locals, and then say being able to spawn forth the tools to best destroy the defenders. Lots of Jedi? Spawn hundreds of thousands of Tyranid that actually nullify the force in the area around them. No Jedi/Force users present? Throw a few thousand Force wielding Tyranids into the mix, either lots of lesser creatures working in sync with each other, or on a handful of the higher end nids.

As mentioned, the slow rate at which the fleet moves, people might actually not notice/care overly much unless a pattern is noticed or if the fleet starts moving towards the Core.

hamishspence

2015-06-01, 05:22 PM

Numbers on actual speed from the other end are as difficult to get and as hazy, it seems.

Which is a very vague measure of dubious final-authority, but canon at least in part of the franchise.

For the record, a Cobra Class Destroyer is apparently a torpedo-boat type thingy, so small for a big ship and big for a small ship? Something like that.

Andy Chambers was also involved with the Fantasy Flight Games Rogue Trader game, which also gives figures (it's where the 2.5G acceleration for the Lunar comes from, and the 1.6km length for the Cobra).

Foeofthelance

2015-06-01, 08:18 PM

Not really. They're a hive species - every single Tyranid organism shares a single mega-consciousness, though the lesser organisms need the presence of a larger one to effectively process orders or else they resort to feral instincts. So a Gaunt or two, on its own, could probably fall victim to a Jedi Mind trick easily enough, but they both travel en masse and are rarely far from a Warrior or Tyrant, who are direct conduits for the Hive Mind's will and wouldn't be fooled in the least.

But the idea of the Hive Mind assimilating midichlorians is kind of scary.

Actually, if memory serves there is a hive-mind race already running around the SW universe that assimilates other races into its hive mind. I believe it does grab several Jedi but does not develop a nest-wide ability to use the Force. Since midichlorians are supposed to be in all living things, presumably the Tyranids would already have them but would be unable to use them for whatever reason.

EDIT: As for grabbing for abilities via DNA, I'm not sure how extensive that is. Being able to feel things through the Force is not the same as manipulating the Force through the various spells. I think you'd actually need to incorporate the DNA into the various brain-bugs running the Tyranids, since higher order Force abilities seem to require training and thought to use, then have them try to exercise their powers via the minion species.

Rakaydos

2015-06-01, 08:33 PM

The Glyphstone

2015-06-01, 08:50 PM

Actually, if memory serves there is a hive-mind race already running around the SW universe that assimilates other races into its hive mind. I believe it does grab several Jedi but does not develop a nest-wide ability to use the Force. Since midichlorians are supposed to be in all living things, presumably the Tyranids would already have them but would be unable to use them for whatever reason.

EDIT: As for grabbing for abilities via DNA, I'm not sure how extensive that is. Being able to feel things through the Force is not the same as manipulating the Force through the various spells. I think you'd actually need to incorporate the DNA into the various brain-bugs running the Tyranids, since higher order Force abilities seem to require training and thought to use, then have them try to exercise their powers via the minion species.

What if the Tyranids do have midichlorians, and are in fact using them already - manifesting as their collective hive intelligence? Older editions of the game treated Synapse Creatures (the bigger bugs that function as control nodes for the Hive Mind) as psykers for things that cared about that, like anti-psychic weapons, and as mentioned the practical effects of the Hive Mind (since its sentience as a concrete intelligence is a completely unknown variable) are an extremely powerful variant of Battle Meditation.

As for the DNA, it'd likely just be based on the effect. Weak effects like the Vorskyr's hunting senses could just become another Gaunt biomorph, since it's an instinctive ability on its own right possessed by an animal-grade intelligence. Actual force effects in the higher-level spell since would indeed be restricted to the higher-level Synapse creatures or Zoanthropes (psychic artillery creatures).

Lamech

2015-06-01, 09:30 PM

Remember that there is no "top speed" in space (until you are going fast enough for relativity to matter), only acceleration.
If you are relying on reaction thrusters (the sort that obey Newton's Third Law) you have something worse.
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071009023159/starwars/images/2/28/Mchomeonerear.jpg

Wiki (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ion_drive)

http://www.starwars-universe.com/images/actualites/autres/Ion_engine.jpg
You have a limited amount of ability to change your momentum. Worse you need to slow down. Star Wars ships not only have a speed limit, if they hit it they can't slow down!

HamHam

2015-06-01, 10:59 PM

I think one basic question is whether an Imperial fleet, similar to the one at the Second Death Star lets say, can take on and beat a Hive Fleet. If it can, then any scenario is going to be handled pretty easily because the Tyranids are just too slow. But if not, there is I think there is a real danger of the Tyranid forces growing faster than they can be destroyed. At least until someone creates some kind of super weapon to use against them... and honestly I think SW actually beats 40K on that front.

The other thing that stand out to me is that interstellar travel in 40K is rare, pretty much limited to military, official logistics, and Rogue Traders. But in SW, a Genestealer could hop on any random freighter and start a new infestation half way across the galaxy just like that.

The Glyphstone

2015-06-01, 11:09 PM

There are lots of other interstellar ships in 40K - merchants, pilgrims, miners, etc. They just don't get any attention because they're boring and not related to WAAAAAAAARRRR. But what they do tend to be is short-legged; moving from one system to a nearby system, not making cross-galactic journeys, so the threat of Genestealers spreading across a much wider area remains a valid point.

Forum Explorer

2015-06-01, 11:11 PM

However, ships are fast enough that someone could go and tell people in person what was happening, and the military response time could still be measured in hours. (Remember that Hyperspace was so fast that Palpatine could go from Coruscant to Geonosis to recover Anakin who was lying at the edge of a river of lava which was actively burning all his skin off without any arms and legs, having set off only shortly before this happened to him)

Was there any indication that the fight between Yoda and Palpatine, and the fight between Obiwan and Anakin literally took place at the same time?

Anyways, assuming that hyperspace is blocked by Tyranids arriving in system due to the gravity thing, they might not be able to escape. The Tyranids might be the slowest fleet, with the weakest ranged options, but it's hive ships still have more firepower then anything weaker then a SSD (I think they outclass those as well actually). And there are thousands of them. Nothing civilian should have a chance of actually getting past them. And if they don't know to immediately flee, they might let their chance to run slip away.

But I've thought of two other things,

1. Genestealers. Given time (which they have plenty of), they can reduce almost any planet to civil war, and are fully capable of sophisticated tactics such as infecting high ranking members of society, disrupting communications, and playing multiple sides against one another. They'd go a long way to stopping anyone from escaping and generating chaos that would make responding to the Tyranids even more difficult.

2. Assuming the Empire learns of the Tyranids quickly, and assuming they send basically everything they have available to the next planet in line to fend them off. Can they win? The ISDs we see in the movies are the standard ship IIRC, meaning there are both bigger and smaller ships, but mostly smaller (There's what? 4 SSD in the galaxy or something like that?)

But they are tiny in comparison to 40K ships, being only around the size of a frigate. And fragile in comparison too. And the full Hive Fleet has something like thousands or more of the big Hive Ships, and even more of their own frigates. So can Star Wars even win a head on engagement without building up even more? And then if their Fleet is devastated (90% casualties + a dead Death Star), can they recover and rebuild in time to fight the Fleet again later? (which will likely be even stronger then the last fight)

Razade

2015-06-01, 11:22 PM

1. Genestealers. Given time (which they have plenty of), they can reduce almost any planet to civil war, and are fully capable of sophisticated tactics such as infecting high ranking members of society, disrupting communications, and playing multiple sides against one another. They'd go a long way to stopping anyone from escaping and generating chaos that would make responding to the Tyranids even more difficult.

The problem with Genestealers is that unlike WH40K the Star Wars Universe has droids who can preform full body scans that serve as medical bots which could conceivably find the Geneseed and remove it and not just in humans but a ton of other species. Paired with bacta which is a nigh magical healing liquid the Star Wars Universe has a much better ability to keep infection and disease away which would halt a Genestealer plague fairly well once they figure out what's causing it.

Forum Explorer

2015-06-01, 11:27 PM

The problem with Genestealers is that unlike WH40K the Star Wars Universe has droids who can preform full body scans that serve as medical bots which could conceivably find the Geneseed and remove it and not just in humans but a ton of other species. Paired with bacta which is a nigh magical healing liquid the Star Wars Universe has a much better ability to keep infection and disease away which would halt a Genestealer plague fairly well once they figure out what's causing it.

40K is actually pretty good at finding the infection, though they have no known way to seperate it after it's been detected (in one book they basically manage to get the entire military of a planet tested, which is something like millions of guardsmen). Can Star Wars separate it? It's more then just a parasite, it's a literal overwritten part of the DNA of the subject species. It's why the infected individuals breed more infected people. Until they literally start giving birth to genestealers.

Killer Angel

2015-06-02, 03:30 AM

But they are tiny in comparison to 40K ships, being only around the size of a frigate. And fragile in comparison too. And the full Hive Fleet has something like thousands or more of the big Hive Ships, and even more of their own frigates. So can Star Wars even win a head on engagement without building up even more? And then if their Fleet is devastated (90% casualties + a dead Death Star), can they recover and rebuild in time to fight the Fleet again later? (which will likely be even stronger then the last fight)

If we're talking about size (http://www.shortlist.com/cool-stuff/design/incredible-poster-of-every-sci-fi-starship)...

Drascin

2015-06-02, 03:38 AM

Which is to say that Genestealer Cults are already known for lurking in the shadows in dark hooded robes, you're really just one mutation away from clawed multi-armed sith-like cults spreading across the underbelly of society, attempting to lure their space-bug kin to vulnerable planets and getting in cool lightsaber fights.

The hilarious thing is that the Dark Side is inherently selfish, so the more the genestealer cults grew in the Dark Side... the higher the chances they'd develop independence and the less they would welcome simply being reabsorbed back into the hive. Which would mean greater chances of trying to betray everyone at the same time or control their space-bug kin Kerrigan-style or something.

I have no idea how this would go other than it'd probably make for some pretty cool multi-way villainy.

Razade

2015-06-02, 03:39 AM

Brother Oni

2015-06-02, 04:31 AM

40K is actually pretty good at finding the infection, though they have no known way to seperate it after it's been detected (in one book they basically manage to get the entire military of a planet tested, which is something like millions of guardsmen). Can Star Wars separate it? It's more then just a parasite, it's a literal overwritten part of the DNA of the subject species. It's why the infected individuals breed more infected people. Until they literally start giving birth to genestealers.

I'm fairly sure that Star Wars medical tech could remove the infective seed from implanted individuals, but from various 40K novels, it may be too late by that point.

In one Ciaphas Cain book, he finds two infected troopers and shoots them dead before finding the implanted egg and wound tract on both of them. They were both infected mere hours before and if removing it was enough to stop the infection then why shoot them in the first place? In another short story, an infected survivor is given a full medical check and they find nothing wrong with him, suggesting that the seed is absorbed by the host body over time.

Suppose a 'stealer gets onboard a small freighter - it kills the majority of the crew during the battle, leaving only a single implanted crew member. The freighter eventually drifts into sensor range of a planet where a rescue party is sent aboard.
They find the survivor, who tells of a brutal pirate attack and their vague memories of the actual attack is chalked up to PTSD, supported by the brutalised remains scattered throughout the ship.

After a medical checkup, the medical bots find a few anomalies, which is easily explained by stress and borderline malnutrition/anoxia due to drifting in space for that length of time. When questioned about their future plans, the crew member says they want to retire somewhere quiet planetside, maybe start a family if they can find the right person.
The authorities nod and smile comfortingly, passing along the numbers of some PTSD/survivor support groups and let him go, little knowing that this small act of kindess has doomed the whole planet.

Our former crew member finds a nice mate, they set up home somewhere nice, quiet and remote and start having children. These would be first generation hybrids, thus their 3/4 armed appearance would be an issue, except that the nacent hivemind makes them fall in love with their child. Through careful manipulation (or just plain friendly invites), more people are lured to their remote farm and infected by the original 'stealer who snuck off the ship once it made planetfall.

Eventually the farm becomes an walled off complex to accomodate all the people who have joined this religious group. Since all the hybrid children are obviously homeschooled, concerns are raised about the children's welfare by the authorities but the various inspectors return with glowing reports of the quality of the school and the excellence of the children's environment. Some even join the religious group later, so swayed they are by the group's message of peace and love.

Eventually 4th generation hybrids are born, which can pass for members of their native species and they are sent out into the world to earn their fortune, gain positions of power and invite persons of interest back home to the 'farm' for no pressure weekend getaways, extolling the peace, quiet and beauty of the place.
The genestealer cult is by now established enough to start sending out new missions to spread the word, with sufficiently devout members being rewarded by getting a trip back to the original farm.

It's at this point that the original 'stealer is probably powerful enough to trip the radar of any nearby Jedi (assuming this is the days of the Republic), but their low key presence is unlikely to interest the overstretched and under-manned Jedi out to their farm. That said, any infiltrating Jedi is going to receive a nasty surprise, since the co-ordinated assault of ranged and melee attacks is going to be disconcerting, never mind any possible psykery from a Magnus or the Patriarch.

The 4th generation hybrids are going to give birth to either purestrain 'stealers or native members of their species and these new purestrains can start up their own remote farms, so that they don't have to go back to the Patriarch to be infected.
Some of the more enterprising members of the cult may make a move into politics, using a platform of peace and prosperity, subtly undermining the defences of the planet through the guise of increasing the wealth of the common people.

Once they've consolidated enough power or are discovered, the cult will then rise up and attempt to take the world. This plan will take a long time (we're talking about at least 100 years), but given that purestrains are effectively immortal, they can afford to play the long game.

Now there are a number of weakness in this plan even before the authorities are aware of what they're looking for -

DNA scans will turn up something odd which may trigger investigations that can't be bought (or infected) off and it's unlikely that genestealer cults will amass any real power during the time of the Galactic Empire.
Once the Empire/Republic knows what they're looking for, the only hope for 'stealers to gain a foothold is to stay remote and isolated, not making any grabs for power which would trip the radar of the authorities (I'd enforce regular compulsory medical scans for anybody with access to vital systems), but also not making them capable of causing a global civil war; however localised disablement of planetary defences through guerilla actions may be enough for invading bioships to get enough mycetic spores down to make planetfall.
The long time for the cult to gain power is an issue, so an invading tyranid fleet may well be destroyed before the genestealer infection becomes an issue.
There's also the possibility that not all Star Wars alien species can be infected, although since 'stealers can infect humans (mammals) and orks (ambulatory fungi), it may not be an issue (assuming that ork hybrids haven't been retconned out).

On the 'stealer's side:

Droid rights don't exist, so destroying or repeatedly resetting medical droids wouldn't be too much of an issue for the appropriate person; either replacing with hybrids or infecting the doctors/technicans in charge of the scanning program may be a priority for the 'stealer.
Early sightings of purestrains and hybrids are also not going to be overly alarming to the more diverse Star Wars universe, especially if they're not initially hostile.
Again, not sure whether this has been retconned out, but the Patriarch and the Magnus used to be able to draw line of sight from any cult member via the genestealer's hivemind. This also includes the ability to cast psyker powers, making assassination attempts very difficult to stop.

A question that's arisen while thinking about this - how are we resolving the Force/Warp powers differences for the terms of this match up?

The hilarious thing is that the Dark Side is inherently selfish, so the more the genestealer cults grew in the Dark Side... the higher the chances they'd develop independence and the less they would welcome simply being reabsorbed back into the hive. Which would mean greater chances of trying to betray everyone at the same time or control their space-bug kin Kerrigan-style or something.

Actually it's an issue in 40K itself. When the hivemind gets close enough to 'stealer infested planet, the genestealer's smaller hivemind is forcibily subsumed into the greater tyranid one - 'stealers like being independent, especially a Patriarch that's likely to have spent decades, if not centuries, of effort amassing power and influence. Why would it willing give all that up to just become another cog in the great machine? This is not including the fact that all the 'expendable' members of its family are just going to be digested for biomass and genestealer cults tend to be fanatically protective of their twisted mutated family.

Kurgan

2015-06-02, 04:37 AM

I can see Genestealers being incredibly effective early on, but after the first handful of big reveals, Star Wars can probably create the tools to severely limit the spread. Something as simple as all people entering/exiting a spaceport being required to walk through a quick scanner that detects for infection would limit the spread. Especially if the scanner was guarded by a droid or the like, which presumably cannot be infected itself (although reprogrammed by a cultist maybe...).

The big thing is, such a tool can be mass produced and placed in many major starports in the space of a decade. Such ambitious projects involving the creation of new machines, etc, would take the Imperium of Man hundreds of years most likely for approval and full production.

I doubt one could outright heal the host of genestealer DNA, but actions can certainly be taken to limit its spread.

Of course, any quarantine or restrictions are only as useful as the people in charge of them are willing to implement them...

Forum Explorer

2015-06-02, 04:47 AM

If we're talking about size (http://www.shortlist.com/cool-stuff/design/incredible-poster-of-every-sci-fi-starship)...

That's really cool, but fragile is the more important part. In a lot of the EU, as well as the movies, as well as the Clone Wars cartoons, capital ships regularly get killed by fighters.

Drascin

2015-06-02, 04:49 AM

Actually it's an issue in 40K itself. When the hivemind gets close enough to 'stealer infested planet, the genestealer's smaller hivemind is forcibily subsumed into the greater tyranid one - 'stealers like being independent, especially a Patriarch that's likely to have spent decades, if not centuries, of effort amassing power and influence. Why would it willing give all that up to just become another cog in the great machine? This is not including the fact that all the 'expendable' members of its family are just going to be digested for biomass and genestealer cults tend to be fanatically protective of their twisted mutated family.

Yup. But the Dark Side feeds off this and multiplies it to insane levels, which is my point. Put that want of independence, and now back it up with decades of immersion in the Dark Side, which empowers selfishness and gains power from that selfishness in a feedback loop.

The GeneSith are likely to end up succeeding in finding a way to not be subsumed, or even to misdirect the Hive Fleets entirely away from their own fiefdom. And from there can only come hilarity.

Brother Oni

2015-06-02, 05:05 AM

Yup. But the Dark Side feeds off this and multiplies it to insane levels, which is my point. Put that want of independence, and now back it up with decades of immersion in the Dark Side, which empowers selfishness and gains power from that selfishness in a feedback loop.

The GeneSith are likely to end up succeeding in finding a way to not be subsumed, or even to misdirect the Hive Fleets entirely away from their own fiefdom. And from there can only come hilarity.

I'm not very familiar with the SW EU outside of the two KOTOR games, but if the Dark Side influence is that strong, wouldn't it make the cohesion of the genestealer cult incredibly fragile, or would it only affect the psykers of the cult? As I understand it, Sith teachings don't come naturally so the GeneSith would have to search them out, else they're just less dangerous untrained Dark Side influenced psykers.

While a major power struggle between a Dark Side influenced Patriarch and Magnus would likely tear the cult apart, they're both intelligent enough to divvy up the planet between them, at least until it's under their combined control before they go back to killing each other again. That said, a world out of the hands of the Republic will undermine their war effort against the main Tyranid fleet, regardless of who's in control (if anybody).

I'm not so sure that they could redirect a hive fleet though, since their very presence calls to the hive mind. On the other hand, if we're equating Force suppression with Warp suppression, enough of the SW native Force suppressing animals could be used to mask the presence of a strong enough cult from the main hive mind.

Killer Angel

2015-06-02, 05:14 AM

That's really cool, but fragile is the more important part. In a lot of the EU, as well as the movies, as well as the Clone Wars cartoons, capital ships regularly get killed by fighters.

Absolutely yes. The ability to stand punishment, is also important.
As said in the Battleship move (i can't believe I'm quoting that one...) "They ain't gonna sink this battleship, no way!"

Drascin

2015-06-02, 07:52 AM

I'm not very familiar with the SW EU outside of the two KOTOR games, but if the Dark Side influence is that strong, wouldn't it make the cohesion of the genestealer cult incredibly fragile, or would it only affect the psykers of the cult? As I understand it, Sith teachings don't come naturally so the GeneSith would have to search them out, else they're just less dangerous untrained Dark Side influenced psykers.

The Sith teachings are actually what generally allows the Dark Side users to be an organization instead of a mess. The Sith were an organization to put a bunch of extremely individualistic people to a goal, and even then, they killed each other so much that at the end they had to make a rule that there must be only two of them because one master and one apprentice was about the only way they wouldn't infight themselves to extinction. Dark Side users, by and large, are dangerous by themselves - the Sith teachings make them less dangerous to each other, not more.

So yeah, I basically kind of expect a backstab festival as their Dark Side connection grows stronger.

RCgothic

2015-06-02, 09:56 AM

Kurgan

2015-06-02, 11:41 AM

Tyranid fleets are absolutely swarming with fighter-sized craft. There are so many that Tyranids use them as shields, physically interposing against weapons fire, totally expendable. Empire fighters are not a counter to Tyranid superiority in capital ships.

Tie Fighters are not that great of an answer to the Tyranids, but droid fighters like the ones from the prequel trilogy could be useful vs them. How many can one Trade Federation starship carry? In Phantom Menace it seemed like several hundred from just a single ship. Multiply this by an entire armada, and factor in the fact that this entire fleet has probably less than 100 organics per ship, and even if every last ship is destroyed, it is a net loss for the Tyranids.

At least a net loss assuming that it takes energy to reclaim lost biomass from a fight, so that it can never recover 100% of its losses without a big surge like nomming on a planet.

Similarly, did someone seriously just suggest that space port scanners would prevent Genestealer infestation in a setting as notoriously riddled with illicit smugglers as the Galactic Empire? Genestealers thrive in such environments.

Oh, space port scanners alone would definitely not stop a Genestealer infestation on their own. They would force them to work around it, and spread more slowly than they otherwise could though. That was just me pointing out that the Republic/Empire, etc have the technology and the ability to just implement something immediately.

I honestly doubt that Genestealers could ever be completely 100% eradicated, but if they can be penned down and burned out of their more harmful nesting grounds, their effectiveness would be limited.

Forum Explorer

2015-06-02, 01:09 PM

Tie Fighters are not that great of an answer to the Tyranids, but droid fighters like the ones from the prequel trilogy could be useful vs them. How many can one Trade Federation starship carry? In Phantom Menace it seemed like several hundred from just a single ship. Multiply this by an entire armada, and factor in the fact that this entire fleet has probably less than 100 organics per ship, and even if every last ship is destroyed, it is a net loss for the Tyranids.

At least a net loss assuming that it takes energy to reclaim lost biomass from a fight, so that it can never recover 100% of its losses without a big surge like nomming on a planet.

Oh, space port scanners alone would definitely not stop a Genestealer infestation on their own. They would force them to work around it, and spread more slowly than they otherwise could though. That was just me pointing out that the Republic/Empire, etc have the technology and the ability to just implement something immediately.

I honestly doubt that Genestealers could ever be completely 100% eradicated, but if they can be penned down and burned out of their more harmful nesting grounds, their effectiveness would be limited.

It is a net loss, because while Tyranids are efficient in recovering losses and healing damage, they aren't 100% efficient. Of course though, they do eat some metals and stuff too, so they'll be gaining a little bit too.

In the end though, I really don't think that the droids will be very effective at all. I mean, they were pretty bad pilots, and Tyranids are really good at anti-fighter tactics. In the end I think it would cost the galaxy more to produce those droids then how much damage those droids will do. Particularly since you don't even need to kill the droid ships, just the capital ships controlling them (which again, were destroyed by a single fighter)

The problem is that by the time they realize the Genestealers are part of a Tyranid invasion, they'll have already spread to planets across the galaxy (actually making it harder to tell that they are part of the invasion.) They might even end up causing the Rebel Alliance in the first place.

Foeofthelance

2015-06-02, 01:57 PM

Tie Fighters are not that great of an answer to the Tyranids, but droid fighters like the ones from the prequel trilogy could be useful vs them. How many can one Trade Federation starship carry? In Phantom Menace it seemed like several hundred from just a single ship. Multiply this by an entire armada, and factor in the fact that this entire fleet has probably less than 100 organics per ship, and even if every last ship is destroyed, it is a net loss for the Tyranids.

At least a net loss assuming that it takes energy to reclaim lost biomass from a fight, so that it can never recover 100% of its losses without a big surge like nomming on a planet.

Oh, space port scanners alone would definitely not stop a Genestealer infestation on their own. They would force them to work around it, and spread more slowly than they otherwise could though. That was just me pointing out that the Republic/Empire, etc have the technology and the ability to just implement something immediately.

I honestly doubt that Genestealers could ever be completely 100% eradicated, but if they can be penned down and burned out of their more harmful nesting grounds, their effectiveness would be limited.

The Droid control ship was also a major weak point, and one of the reasons the Empire continued to use manned ships. Take out the control center, and a lot of the droid units tend to shut down. Make them self-willed, and you either have to keep them dumb enough to ignore the fact that they're cannon fodder, thus hindering their combat capability, or eventually you end up with a bunch of heavily armed C-3POs who have absolutely no interest in fighting and the means to prevent themselves from being deployed. Much easier to just convince biologicals that three square meals and a warm bed is worth getting shot at.

As for the Genestealers, I think they're more of a red herring issue. The Republic doesn't have problems with hive mind alien species; the conflict with the Tyranids stems from the Tyranid's need to eat the Republic. So focus on blowing up the Hive Mind fleets so they can't overwrite the genestealer cults, declare the genestealers citizens, and then let them advertise. Something as large as the SW galaxy, they'd get volunteers.

The Glyphstone

2015-06-02, 02:01 PM

Rakaydos

2015-06-02, 02:04 PM

Tiki Snakes

2015-06-02, 02:41 PM

As for the Genestealers, I think they're more of a red herring issue. The Republic doesn't have problems with hive mind alien species; the conflict with the Tyranids stems from the Tyranid's need to eat the Republic. So focus on blowing up the Hive Mind fleets so they can't overwrite the genestealer cults, declare the genestealers citizens, and then let them advertise. Something as large as the SW galaxy, they'd get volunteers.

I think there's a bit of missing the point and not seeing the dynamic going on here with the genestealer cults.

There are several crucial facts as I see it in terms of how they would react and play out to the situation.

Firstly, their loyalty to "The family" is genetically absolute and top down; Those at the top stay at the top and there's no room for divide and conquer, it's the Tyranid Hive-Mind in miniature. Likewise, there's genetically pre-determined Tyranid Fanatacism involved, it's not brain washing it's base-code-rewrite stuff. There's room for the selfishness of the Dark Side to whisper it's seductive little whispers in the ear of the Patriarch and so on, but at the end of the day Darth Vader betrayed the Emperor because they had always basically been enemies and he was killing his son. Not because the Dark Side told him to. I'd expect Dark-Side empowered Gene-Cults to be extra slippery, perhaps more malicious and insidious even than they already would be and sure, the top dogs might very well try to resist the call and slip their fate as the fleet draws near, but I'd expect that to play out via them trying to either; Become major powers inside the fleet and retain as much individual sentience as they can, or simply flee the doomed planet before the Fleet cuts it off. *

That brings us to the second point. They don't actively summon the fleet and they can't meaningfully protect their power by warding it off. They aren't going to be talked over to the side of light by self interest and man the defences against the oncoming swarm and they can't not summon it. It's literally the beacon of power given off by the Patriarch as he grows in power and control, that spike of warp-presence that draws attention to a world that a Patriarch has successfully destabilized.

That's point three. There's an elegance to the way the thing interlocks. If the Patriarch is not able to grow his cult and destabilize the world, he's not going to grow in power. But the presence of a strong patriarch/magus/gene cult on a world is not just a sign of a large gene-cult, it's also a sure sign of a vulnerable world. Simply due to the methodology and the programmed instincts of the two sub-factions, you get a quite elegant system to weaken targets and guide the swarm towards easier meals.

And lastly, just to reiterate; Genestealer Cults watchword is, believe it or not, subtlety. They will go out of their way to avoid active hostility or even appearing to be a negative influence. They'll do whatever it takes to flourish and grow quietly, whether in the shadows of the seedy underbelly of society or hidden in plain sight as a quirky but essentially harmless religious movement. This is their core strategy, to quietly and patiently infiltrate society as they accumulate power and sow discord amongst their enemies, manipulating people and pitting them against each other.

With how powerful and pervasive the Star Wars underworld seems to be and how gigantic the political bureaucracy, not to mention how multicultural and non-xenophobic the galactic culture is (especially compared to 40k), there's really fertile ground for their particular brand of hijinks.

Which is to say above all else, of course there would be recruitment posters. And Ad campaigns, charity fundraisers, charismatic celebrity endorsements and legitimate business interests bringing their values to the galaxy. That's already practically their thing even in the super-totalitarian atmosphere of the average Imperium of Man world. To the point where, on a quick google I'm actually surprised to see no easily found internet-versions. Guess the 'stealers just aren't cool enough for today's crowd. :smallsmile:

EDIT - Footnote;
* The catch here is that the urge to flee and gather power rather than join up with the hive just means that the core of the sufficiently powerful cult will hit a new world running and as they begin their world over, they'll simply hit that same point more quickly next time because they'll be going in with a head-start essentially.

Foeofthelance

2015-06-02, 05:12 PM

I think there's a bit of missing the point and not seeing the dynamic going on here with the genestealer cults.

There are several crucial facts as I see it in terms of how they would react and play out to the situation.

Firstly, their loyalty to "The family" is genetically absolute and top down; Those at the top stay at the top and there's no room for divide and conquer, it's the Tyranid Hive-Mind in miniature. Likewise, there's genetically pre-determined Tyranid Fanatacism involved, it's not brain washing it's base-code-rewrite stuff. There's room for the selfishness of the Dark Side to whisper it's seductive little whispers in the ear of the Patriarch and so on, but at the end of the day Darth Vader betrayed the Emperor because they had always basically been enemies and he was killing his son. Not because the Dark Side told him to. I'd expect Dark-Side empowered Gene-Cults to be extra slippery, perhaps more malicious and insidious even than they already would be and sure, the top dogs might very well try to resist the call and slip their fate as the fleet draws near, but I'd expect that to play out via them trying to either; Become major powers inside the fleet and retain as much individual sentience as they can, or simply flee the doomed planet before the Fleet cuts it off. *

That brings us to the second point. They don't actively summon the fleet and they can't meaningfully protect their power by warding it off. They aren't going to be talked over to the side of light by self interest and man the defences against the oncoming swarm and they can't not summon it. It's literally the beacon of power given off by the Patriarch as he grows in power and control, that spike of warp-presence that draws attention to a world that a Patriarch has successfully destabilized.

That's point three. There's an elegance to the way the thing interlocks. If the Patriarch is not able to grow his cult and destabilize the world, he's not going to grow in power. But the presence of a strong patriarch/magus/gene cult on a world is not just a sign of a large gene-cult, it's also a sure sign of a vulnerable world. Simply due to the methodology and the programmed instincts of the two sub-factions, you get a quite elegant system to weaken targets and guide the swarm towards easier meals.

And lastly, just to reiterate; Genestealer Cults watchword is, believe it or not, subtlety. They will go out of their way to avoid active hostility or even appearing to be a negative influence. They'll do whatever it takes to flourish and grow quietly, whether in the shadows of the seedy underbelly of society or hidden in plain sight as a quirky but essentially harmless religious movement. This is their core strategy, to quietly and patiently infiltrate society as they accumulate power and sow discord amongst their enemies, manipulating people and pitting them against each other.

With how powerful and pervasive the Star Wars underworld seems to be and how gigantic the political bureaucracy, not to mention how multicultural and non-xenophobic the galactic culture is (especially compared to 40k), there's really fertile ground for their particular brand of hijinks.

Which is to say above all else, of course there would be recruitment posters. And Ad campaigns, charity fundraisers, charismatic celebrity endorsements and legitimate business interests bringing their values to the galaxy. That's already practically their thing even in the super-totalitarian atmosphere of the average Imperium of Man world. To the point where, on a quick google I'm actually surprised to see no easily found internet-versions. Guess the 'stealers just aren't cool enough for today's crowd. :smallsmile:

EDIT - Footnote;
* The catch here is that the urge to flee and gather power rather than join up with the hive just means that the core of the sufficiently powerful cult will hit a new world running and as they begin their world over, they'll simply hit that same point more quickly next time because they'll be going in with a head-start essentially.

Ah, I didn't mean to imply the Genestealers would join the side of light. At least not in a, "Sell out the Hive Mind and we'll make you Jedi" kind of way, at any point. Just that the Republic wouldn't really have a problem with the Genestealers as just Genestealers. Oooh, wow, another alien hive mind/vaguely sinister enterprise asking people to join it. As long as the genestealers paid their taxes on time, no one in a major capacity would care. They could take over entire planets just by following the rules. Hell, play their cards right and they could grab the Presidency or Prime Ministry or Grand Poohbahry or whatever the head of the Republic is in an entirely legal manner, and it would be just another day at the office for most folks. Granted, if they were trying to actively suborn a government via kidnapping and murder and the like it would probably provoke some sort of reaction, but where the Imperium would start carpet bombing the planet the Republic would send in a few investigators, arrest those responsible, and then spill the story to the newsfaxes. It would be just another political scandal rather than a threat to Life As We Know It. If anyone would be put out by them, it would probably be groups like the Hutts or the Black Sun getting pissed at yet another form of competition.

The Glyphstone

2015-06-02, 05:17 PM

Well, that is kind of their modus operandi, if it's practical to do so. Genestealer cults are very flexible, doing whatever they need to do grow and spread their power and influence while preparing the planet for invasion; if they can masquerade as a harmless cult, they'll do that. They'll also blackmail or kidnap authority figures to infect them, assassinate potential threats, plan and execute sabotage against planetary defenses. There's really no such thing as a harmless Genestealer cult, even if you remove the main Hive Fleets from existence entirely - it'll just keep growing and growing, involuntarily if it can't do so openly or voluntarily.

Foeofthelance

2015-06-02, 05:30 PM

Yup. I just figure it will act as a sort of natural selection on the various independent cults. Take out ad campaigns to recruit new volunteers, build a couple charity hospitals and orphanages, and the Republic will applaud as you take over planets and even sectors. Don't even bother sabotaging the local defenses, because in just a few generations they're all going to be yours anyway and why pay the price to have to replace them?

Assassinate the local governor while blowing up powerplants to foster civil unrest? Then some Jedi are going to show up and make sure a different genestealer cult suddenly has a lot more advertising opportunities.

Tiki Snakes

2015-06-02, 05:47 PM

Ah, I didn't mean to imply the Genestealers would join the side of light. At least not in a, "Sell out the Hive Mind and we'll make you Jedi" kind of way, at any point. Just that the Republic wouldn't really have a problem with the Genestealers as just Genestealers. Oooh, wow, another alien hive mind/vaguely sinister enterprise asking people to join it. As long as the genestealers paid their taxes on time, no one in a major capacity would care. They could take over entire planets just by following the rules. Hell, play their cards right and they could grab the Presidency or Prime Ministry or Grand Poohbahry or whatever the head of the Republic is in an entirely legal manner, and it would be just another day at the office for most folks. Granted, if they were trying to actively suborn a government via kidnapping and murder and the like it would probably provoke some sort of reaction, but where the Imperium would start carpet bombing the planet the Republic would send in a few investigators, arrest those responsible, and then spill the story to the newsfaxes. It would be just another political scandal rather than a threat to Life As We Know It. If anyone would be put out by them, it would probably be groups like the Hutts or the Black Sun getting pissed at yet another form of competition.

Well, that is kind of their modus operandi, if it's practical to do so. Genestealer cults are very flexible, doing whatever they need to do grow and spread their power and influence while preparing the planet for invasion; if they can masquerade as a harmless cult, they'll do that. They'll also blackmail or kidnap authority figures to infect them, assassinate potential threats, plan and execute sabotage against planetary defenses. There's really no such thing as a harmless Genestealer cult, even if you remove the main Hive Fleets from existence entirely - it'll just keep growing and growing, involuntarily if it can't do so openly or voluntarily.

Yeah, what Glyphstone said. That's exactly what they might do in isolation. They'd have a great time across the galactic stage, weaving themselves into all manner of facets of life, high office and low. Worlds would quietly fall, or descend into chaotic infighting that leave the Gene-Cult un-opposed, or simply grow brittle as they come to rely upon the cult. Then comes the swarm. The republic having no real problem with them, (if and where they even notice they're around) isn't a defensive strength of the republic, that's them being prime victims of the Gene-Cult's go-to plan.

Yup. I just figure it will act as a sort of natural selection on the various independent cults. Take out ad campaigns to recruit new volunteers, build a couple charity hospitals and orphanages, and the Republic will applaud as you take over planets and even sectors. Don't even bother sabotaging the local defenses, because in just a few generations they're all going to be yours anyway and why pay the price to have to replace them?

Assassinate the local governor while blowing up powerplants to foster civil unrest? Then some Jedi are going to show up and make sure a different genestealer cult suddenly has a lot more advertising opportunities.

Yeah, I dunno about that. The whole point of the gene-cults is that they are biologically fanatically loyal? So this whole "compete with other genestealer cult" thing seems like a bit of a foreign idea really. I'm not sure it's a realistic prospect even with the Dark Side of the Force in play. And if we haven't removed the swarm from the equation, then the answer to "why sabotage the defences?" is to call back to the fanatical loyalty and dedication thing, because it makes the inevitable harvest that little bit easier.

Foeofthelance

2015-06-02, 06:39 PM

Yeah, I dunno about that. The whole point of the gene-cults is that they are biologically fanatically loyal? So this whole "compete with other genestealer cult" thing seems like a bit of a foreign idea really. I'm not sure it's a realistic prospect even with the Dark Side of the Force in play. And if we haven't removed the swarm from the equation, then the answer to "why sabotage the defences?" is to call back to the fanatical loyalty and dedication thing, because it makes the inevitable harvest that little bit easier.

Two points to that.

First, its already been pointed out that while the cults are loyal to the concept of Tyranidishness, they don't necessarily want to be consumed by the Hive Fleet. What I'm putting forward, basically, is that while the Republic would have no reason not to sally forth and smash the Hive Fleets, they wouldn't necessarily react the same way to the Genestealer cults. The Hive Fleets are an obvious threat that requires direct action, whereas the Genestealers aren't. Better yet, the Genestealers already superficially resemble several other races that are already a known factor of Republic life. Absent knowledge that a Hive Fleet is just about to show up in system, any individual cult is likely to just start racking up influence and material gains as long as they act within the rules of law, which shouldn't be a problem for them.

Second, I'm not saying that the two cults would be competing against one another. Think of it more as a predator/prey relationship. A gene cult that takes out ads and plays nice would be allowed to grow as much as it wants by the Republic. A cult that starts assassinating people and blowing up infrastructure is basically waving a flag that says, "Hey, Jedi! We're over here, waiting for you to chop off our head!" When that happens, especially if the other cults are behaving, then that just leaves a vacuum for other cults to fill, in the same way a Hutt getting shut down by the Republic would leave opportunity for the other Hutt clans. "Oh, we're so sorry that Primarch Gen Stellar assassinated Governor Palaala and started a civil war on Blashnarsh. That is not how our kind is supposed to act. We understand that there are still issues due to the infrastructure damage. Would it be all right if we sent over some medical supplies, doctors, and food to help relieve the burdens?"

Brother Oni

2015-06-02, 06:50 PM

Someone draft up a Genestealer Cult recruitment poster. NAO.

Something like this?

http://i.imgur.com/yZ1zIki.jpg

Better yet, the Genestealers already superficially resemble several other races that are already a known factor of Republic life. Absent knowledge that a Hive Fleet is just about to show up in system, any individual cult is likely to just start racking up influence and material gains as long as they act within the rules of law, which shouldn't be a problem for them.

I'm not so sure on that. What are the Republic's laws on enforced behavioural/genetic modifications and mind control via infective agents administered during a biological assault, which could be theoretically termed as rape?

If you really wanted to throw a spanner in the works: without a host, a purestrain genestealer can't reproduce, thus they're technically obligate parasites, which is going to tie up the issue of genestealer rights to procreate and thus exist as a species in the Republic legal system for years. There's also the issue of the sheer strength of the purestrains - while wookies can pull a droid's arm out of it socket, a purestrain could potentially tear through an AT-ST's armour.

Second, I'm not saying that the two cults would be competing against one another. Think of it more as a predator/prey relationship. A gene cult that takes out ads and plays nice would be allowed to grow as much as it wants by the Republic. A cult that starts assassinating people and blowing up infrastructure is basically waving a flag that says, "Hey, Jedi! We're over here, waiting for you to chop off our head!" When that happens, especially if the other cults are behaving, then that just leaves a vacuum for other cults to fill, in the same way a Hutt getting shut down by the Republic would leave opportunity for the other Hutt clans. "Oh, we're so sorry that Primarch Gen Stellar assassinated Governor Palaala and started a civil war on Blashnarsh. That is not how our kind is supposed to act. We understand that there are still issues due to the infrastructure damage. Would it be all right if we sent over some medical supplies, doctors, and food to help relieve the burdens?"

Again, genestealer cults being actively antagonistic to each other is very rare in the literature (even if they are doing a good cult/bad cult act to throw the Republic off guard). While I have heard of leaderless tyranid swarms killing each other, 'stealers are significantly smarter and don't need the hive mind to operate independently.

While Dark Side influenced cults could be more antagonistic towards each other, the biological imperative is far more likely to have them on at least cordial terms with each other, if not outright co-operating with each other.

Jedi versus purestrains would be a interesting matchup, since 'stealers are more than a match for power weapons users in the 40K universe, (which while not quite on par with light sabres for lethality, power weapons have a lot more collateral damage in my opnion).
Tie in perfect co-ordination between melee attackers and the more human cultists taking pot shots at them though and the unarmoured Jedi may be receiving more incoming attacks than their precognition can account for.

Tiki Snakes

2015-06-02, 07:30 PM

Two points to that.

First, its already been pointed out that while the cults are loyal to the concept of Tyranidishness, they don't necessarily want to be consumed by the Hive Fleet. What I'm putting forward, basically, is that while the Republic would have no reason not to sally forth and smash the Hive Fleets, they wouldn't necessarily react the same way to the Genestealer cults. The Hive Fleets are an obvious threat that requires direct action, whereas the Genestealers aren't. Better yet, the Genestealers already superficially resemble several other races that are already a known factor of Republic life. Absent knowledge that a Hive Fleet is just about to show up in system, any individual cult is likely to just start racking up influence and material gains as long as they act within the rules of law, which shouldn't be a problem for them.

Second, I'm not saying that the two cults would be competing against one another. Think of it more as a predator/prey relationship. A gene cult that takes out ads and plays nice would be allowed to grow as much as it wants by the Republic. A cult that starts assassinating people and blowing up infrastructure is basically waving a flag that says, "Hey, Jedi! We're over here, waiting for you to chop off our head!" When that happens, especially if the other cults are behaving, then that just leaves a vacuum for other cults to fill, in the same way a Hutt getting shut down by the Republic would leave opportunity for the other Hutt clans. "Oh, we're so sorry that Primarch Gen Stellar assassinated Governor Palaala and started a civil war on Blashnarsh. That is not how our kind is supposed to act. We understand that there are still issues due to the infrastructure damage. Would it be all right if we sent over some medical supplies, doctors, and food to help relieve the burdens?"

I'm no expert, bear in mind. But the thing about this point is that, far as I can infer, you only really get one genestealer cult going on at a time generally speaking. You might get infestations that look like several small cults popping up on the same planet, taking different approaches, using different pawns and so on. Maybe even seeming to compete.

But at the end of the day there would be the Patriach somewhere behind it all like some fat psychic spider.
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/a/a8/Genestealer_Patriarch.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130311030527

As for the softly softly versus anarchy and explosions, that's kind of the point. They don't act openly and they don't resort to violence or public agitation. The subtle, creepily devoted cult that pops up but seems harmless is their standard procedure. They will be wanting to destabilize and weaken as well, but they'll do that by manouvering third parties as much as anything. That's as likely to come in the form of secretly formenting popular unrest or encouraging rampant corruption as anything, and like all good little darksiders you should be sure of two things.

Firstly, that such plots will be nested so as to insulate the cult from direct implication or harm and secondly that of course a band of plucky heroes or something will stumble over it at the last minute, to either prevent it coming to fruition or dramatically fail to do so. That's pretty much what The Force is for. :smallsmile:

As alluded to in the above, I can't help but see such an action to take on and/or dismantle a Gene-Cult by a Jedi and/or plucky band of heroes being much less Return of the Jedi and much more Kill Bill. Lightsabers flaring in the dark of the slime-encrusted metal alleyways of the depths of the city, innocuous crowds turning violent on a silent command as the Jedi walks into the Gene-Cult's trap and the whole neighborhood is revealed to be part of the cult. Desperate battles to cut through hoards of fanatical blaster-wielding goons in a crumbling courtyard far below the city's streets. Hooded figures step forwards and red lightsabers ignite. Inhuman faces leer from the dark and multi-limbed monstrosities boil forth as the laughter of their bloated host echoes around them. Stylishly mismatching retro pop/rock playing throughout.

Oh, and for the record I'd say at a glance that the dichotomy between the Gene-Cult's wish to stay individual and the inevitable result of their own actions plugs right in to a nifty "illusion of free will" narrative that I would expect to come up quite explicitly in any climactic confrontation.

Foeofthelance

2015-06-02, 09:01 PM

I'm no expert, bear in mind. But the thing about this point is that, far as I can infer, you only really get one genestealer cult going on at a time generally speaking. You might get infestations that look like several small cults popping up on the same planet, taking different approaches, using different pawns and so on. Maybe even seeming to compete.

But at the end of the day there would be the Patriach somewhere behind it all like some fat psychic spider.
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/a/a8/Genestealer_Patriarch.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130311030527

I am talking about spread across multiple planets. Remember, we're in Republic space. Once established the various cults will have much more ready access to FTL communication and drives, allowing them to coordinate, support, and monitor each other's progress. They don't need to compete, but I expect Cult A would be ready to step in to continue things if something were to publically happen to Cult B.

Rakaydos

2015-06-02, 09:54 PM

Setting: Corusant, between episode 2 and 3.

Large genestealer cult with a powerful patriarch, looking to sieze conttrol of the Republic military. Attempts to kidnap Prime minister Palaptine.

What does Darth Sidius do? How much warning does he get, and can he take the cult by himself without being infected?

Lamech

2015-06-03, 12:02 AM

The Glyphstone

2015-06-03, 12:56 AM

What would happen if the Hive absorbed Force? They don't exactly seem like the types for the careful discipline to not get corrupted. Its sounds like they would end up with a hive of dark force users.So I guess the real question is if the Hive is corrupted as one Dark Force user, or if its a bunch of Force users who promptly start backstabbing and destroy the Hive.

The Tyranid race is ruled by the Hive Mind as one single intelligence; individual lesser organisms are at best feral animals, subject to indirect psychic control via the higher-order creatures who are in themselves only conduits for the Hive Mind as a whole. Only a small number of breeds, primarily Genestealers and specific specialty creatures, possess any independent sapience at all, so if the Tyranids do develop Force sensitivity, it will be as one collective Dark force user. The alternative would be like if a Sith's left pinky finger decided to betray his right kidney.

Tvtyrant

2015-06-03, 12:59 AM

The Tyranid race is ruled by the Hive Mind as one single intelligence; individual lesser organisms are at best feral animals, subject to indirect psychic control via the higher-order creatures who are in themselves only conduits for the Hive Mind as a whole. Only a small number of breeds, primarily Genestealers and specific specialty creatures, possess any independent sapience at all, so if the Tyranids do develop Force sensitivity, it will be as one collective Dark force user. The alternative would be like if a Sith's left pinky finger decided to betray his right kidney.

New theory on why the emperor was so dumb as to kill Vader's son in front of him. His hands were clearly betraying him and doing it themselves. "Curse my hand's sudden but inevitable betrayal!"

Lamech

2015-06-03, 12:59 AM

Edit: Ninja's: I like TvTryant's theory better.

The alternative would be like if a Sith's left pinky finger decided to betray his right kidney.
That would be pretty funny. I can see it now. The small intestine of the Emperor finally tunnels through the diaphragm and crushes the lungs. New headcannon: The leading cause of death among dark force users is internal power struggles among their organs.

The Glyphstone

2015-06-03, 01:01 AM

It's the Evil Midichlorians, probably. If you're a Dark Side user, it corrupts your midichlorians and they start attacking you from the inside, or taking over parts of your body Dr. Strangelove style.

Forum Explorer

2015-06-03, 01:27 AM

Edit: Ninja's: I like TvTryant's theory better.

That would be pretty funny. I can see it now. The small intestine of the Emperor finally tunnels through the diaphragm and crushes the lungs. New headcannon: The leading cause of death among dark force users is internal power struggles among their organs.

Makes sense. My intestines tend to rebel whenever I eat the wrong thing after all. :smallwink:

Brother Oni

2015-06-03, 02:09 AM

As alluded to in the above, I can't help but see such an action to take on and/or dismantle a Gene-Cult by a Jedi and/or plucky band of heroes being much less Return of the Jedi and much more Kill Bill. Lightsabers flaring in the dark of the slime-encrusted metal alleyways of the depths of the city, innocuous crowds turning violent on a silent command as the Jedi walks into the Gene-Cult's trap and the whole neighborhood is revealed to be part of the cult. Desperate battles to cut through hoards of fanatical blaster-wielding goons in a crumbling courtyard far below the city's streets. Hooded figures step forwards and red lightsabers ignite. Inhuman faces leer from the dark and multi-limbed monstrosities boil forth as the laughter of their bloated host echoes around them. Stylishly mismatching retro pop/rock playing throughout.

Nicely written. :smallbiggrin:

Turning it from 'doomed previous group of heroes' situation and a fade to black, typical of Star Wars space fantasy to something more 40K-ish would be just a quite small and logical step. During the fighting to reach the inner sanctum, young cultist children suicide bombers charge the heroes with frag grenades in their tiny hands, screaming hatred.

You know, this would make for a quite a good short story idea/adventure hook - a Jedi master gets a premonition in the Force to investigate the mysterious disappearances of the homeless and dispossessed in the poorer neighbourhoods in Corusant. Along with his padawan, he recruits a small band of interested parties, a young Twi'lek planetary defence officer unable to convince her superiors that something's going on, a wookie war veteran trying to find out what happened to an old war buddy and a smuggler desparately in need of cash to keep the Hutts off her back, and find the disappearances all tie into a local homeless shelter, run by local charity.
They discover the missing people, but immediately the wookie knows something is wrong with his friend and digs further, finding that the charity is funded by this benign semi-religious group that have a small complex deep in the depths of Corusant...

New headcannon: The leading cause of death among dark force users is internal power struggles among their organs.

It'd certainly explain why lots of Dark Side Force users have extensive cybernetics, from Darth Malak's jaw to Darth Nihilus' whole body. :smallbiggrin:

RCgothic

2015-06-03, 07:56 AM

Tiki, you write some incredible stuff. :smallcool:

I think this would be a very close match-up. The Tyraninds can field enough vessels of sufficient size and power to stand up to their Imperial counterparts. But they are very slow on a strategic level, with their advances playing out over generations.

If the Imperials did fully mobilise Imperium of Man style, they have the resources and time necessary to repel the alien hive.

On the other hand, if the Tyranids did manage to gain a large foothold in the galaxy before meeting serious resistance it's difficult to see how they could be stopped. Their numbers would just swell to be too great.

The wildcard is the genestealers. They can spread much faster than the main fleets by the conventional hyper-lanes and the galaxy is totally vulnerable against them in a way Imperium society isn't. If a few key systems were to be subverted - Correlia, Coruscant, Kuat or Fondor - it's difficult to see how the invasion could be prevented. And as if purestrain genestealers weren't horrifying enough, Dark-side wielding Tyranids are almost too terrible to contemplate.

There's certainly be some interesting stories in there, as Tiki demonstrated.

Closet_Skeleton

2015-06-03, 07:58 AM

Darth Nihilus doesn't have cybernetics. He's a ghost in a robe and mask as far as anyone can tell.

Eldan

2015-06-03, 08:00 AM

It'd certainly explain why lots of Dark Side Force users have extensive cybernetics, from Darth Malak's jaw to Darth Nihilus' whole body. :smallbiggrin:

And why the Emperor looks so pale and sickly.

Tiki Snakes

2015-06-03, 08:06 AM

The wildcard is the genestealers. Actually, I'd say that the wildcard here is very much the Force itself. It is after all an all-pervasive thing, equally in every rock and sparrow, man and bug. It surrounds us all and flows through us all and crucially, it has a will. Where it comes out of balance, we call that the Dark Side of the force and it vies with itself for dominance.
I'd say that with the Tyranid swarms inevitably becoming steeped in the dark side, any such invasion would soon take on the same kind of metaphysical importance as the events in the original trilogy, and it's this side of the conflict that will ultimately decide the fate of the setting, rather than troop numbers.

There's certainly be some interesting stories in there, as Tiki demonstrated.
That's definitely the main thing I'm taking away from this discussion, yeah. I shall be squirreling a lot of these ideas in case any of it comes in handy one day.

Brother Oni

2015-06-03, 09:54 AM

Darth Nihilus doesn't have cybernetics. He's a ghost in a robe and mask as far as anyone can tell.

So he decided to cut to the chase and get rid of the battleground that was his body instead of suffering a relentless civil war. :smalltongue:

That's definitely the main thing I'm taking away from this discussion, yeah. I shall be squirreling a lot of these ideas in case any of it comes in handy one day.

You mind if I pinch some of them as well? :smallbiggrin:

Tiki Snakes

2015-06-03, 11:33 AM

I'd go as far as to encourage it. Rich seam of material to work with here.

Rakaydos

2015-06-03, 11:49 AM

Closet_Skeleton

2015-06-03, 01:25 PM

Palpatine can beat up anyone, except for that one fight where he was probably faking and fighting the best counter to his abilities. This is a guy who considers lightsabers to be an irrelevant joke and is still good enough with one to kill 3 Jedi Masters in seconds.

Genestealer Patriarchs do not have a counter for dark side powers. They're super fast and slicey and have hypnotism. Even if they have a strong enough pain threshold to shrug off force lightning he has better offensive powers than that.

Palpatine might make mistakes if he wants to gloat or torture his opponents, I don't see Genestealers as being any fun to torture so he'd probably get bored and finish it off with extreme prejudice.

A Genestealer Magus on the other hand is a much more powerful psyker than a Patriarch and therefore a serious threat to even a high level force master.

RCgothic

2015-06-03, 02:53 PM

Genestealer Patriarchs are a match for Space Marine Librarians - basically Jedi Masters in 7ft-tall tank-armoured supersoldier form. I wouldn't bet against the patriarch.

And I could have taken down those three jedi masters. Mace Windu was the only one of those four not suicidally negligent.

The Glyphstone

2015-06-03, 03:15 PM

Patriarchs are extremely agile too (unless you are Caiphas Cain), and as mentioned, they're fast/strong/tough enough to be a threat to Space Marine Librarians. So if Palpatine and a Patriarch get into a fight, it'll be something much closer to the Sideous-Yoda match than the office beatdown, if Yoda was eight feet tall, immensely obese, and had four arms tipped by razor-sharp claws.

Though it's worth noting that the only way Palpatine is going to be fighting the Patriarch in the first place would be if he goes looking for the guy, or voluntarily lets himself get captured. A Patriarch will only voluntarily leave its inner sanctum in extremely desperate circumstances; for minor things like kidnapping high-ranking politicians, that's what it has cultists for and hybrid servants. And Palps can chew through those all day.

Closet_Skeleton

2015-06-03, 04:11 PM

Genestealer Patriarchs are a match for Space Marine Librarians - basically Jedi Masters in 7ft-tall tank-armoured supersoldier form. I wouldn't bet against the patriarch.

I misremembered Patriarch mastery levels. Turns out they're 4, the same as Magus and more powerful than 90% of Librarians. Going off second edition stats of course since they're the last ones we had outside of Citadel Journal.

Genestealer M6 WS 7 BS 0 S6 T4 W1 I7 A4 LD 10 SV5+
Patriarch M5 WS 7 BS 0 S 6 T 5 W 4 I 6 A 4 LD 10 SV5+

So a Patriarch is slower than a regular genestealer and equal in attacks and weapon skill; wounds and toughness are his only advantage. The gap between a modern genestealer and a broodlord is very different, don't go thinking patriarch and broodlord are synonyms, one is just an old genestealer with impressive powers and the other is a engineered super genestealer. A Broodlord is mastery level 1, but 6th ed and 2nd ed levels can't be compared seeing how Hive Tyrants are now level 2 when they were level 4 in second ed. I would assume that the Patriarch should be bumped down to level 2 like the Tyrant since nothing is level 4 anymore which would put them at only 1 level above the Broodlord. Again, those are 2nd ed stats so that S6 is not as impressive as it looks.

Lexicanian M4 WS 4 BS 4 S4 (5) T5 W1 I5 A1 LD8
Codicier M4 WS 5 BS 5 S5 (7) T5 W2 I5 A1 LD8
Epistolary M4 WS 6 BS 6 S5 (8) T5 W3 I6 A2 LD9
Chief Librarian M4 WS 7 BS 7 S5 (9) T5 W4 I7 A3 LD9

Liberians have 2nd ed force weapons which add their mastery level to their strength, so their actual hitting strength is in brackets. Stat for stat, the Chief Librarian has the Patriarch beaten slightly and is equal as a psyker.

Brother Oni

2015-06-04, 02:22 AM

Liberians have 2nd ed force weapons which add their mastery level to their strength, so their actual hitting strength is in brackets. Stat for stat, the Chief Librarian has the Patriarch beaten slightly and is equal as a psyker.

The question is now, where do Jedi Masters come on the Librarian scale. I'm of the opinion that all the Jedi Council (and hence Palpatine) would be the equal of Chief Librarians, which means that they would have the edge... if they were 7ft tall genetically enhanced super soldiers in power armour.

Toning down some of the Chief Librarian abilities (Toughness and Strength definitely, Weapon Skill possibly with the other stats should remain about the same; it depends on whether Jedi abilities, the battle precognition especially, would make up for the enhanced reflexes of a Space Marine), would make it about equal or even give the Patriarch a slight edge.

Comparing tabletop stats would be on the lower end of the power scale for 40K though, but I'm not familiar with any of the SW or 40K RPG systems to make a better comparison.

While it's true that a Patriarch has no special defenses against Dark Side powers, neither does Palpatine against Warp powers, however I'm not sure what psychic powers 'stealers had access to on tabletop and I'm fairly sure they don't have access to the full suite of powers they had in Space Hulk. Is it possible for inexperienced Force users to self teach/discover lower end Force powers?

Forum Explorer

2015-06-04, 02:25 AM

While it's true that a Patriarch has no special defenses against Dark Side powers, neither does Palpatine against Warp powers, however I'm not sure what psychic powers 'stealers had access to on tabletop and I'm fairly sure they don't have access to the full suite of powers they had in Space Hulk. Is it possible for inexperienced Force users to self teach/discover lower end Force powers?

I don't know about 2nd edition, but they had stuff like Horror which reduced the leadership of the opponent and they get a bunch of stuff I don't know about now.

As for self-learning force stuff, sure. With the barest of training Kim managed to navigate a black hole cluster.

hamishspence

2015-06-04, 02:30 AM

So a Patriarch is slower than a regular genestealer and equal in attacks and weapon skill; wounds and toughness are his only advantage. The gap between a modern genestealer and a broodlord is very different, don't go thinking patriarch and broodlord are synonyms, one is just an old genestealer with impressive powers and the other is a engineered super genestealer.

The Cain books tend to treat them as synonyms - Patriarch frequently being referred to as "the brood lord" or just "broodlord" and being characterised as exceedingly fast, except around Jurgen.

The Glyphstone

2015-06-04, 04:10 AM

The Cain books tend to treat them as synonyms - Patriarch frequently being referred to as "the brood lord" or just "broodlord" and being characterised as exceedingly fast, except around Jurgen.

Which is likely an indication that they aren't so much naturally fast as that they exude some sort of lethargy or space-warping aura that slows down enemies, to the same net effect. They're also supposed to be incredibly fat, so it would make sense that way.

Closet_Skeleton

2015-06-04, 06:02 AM

Currently Broodlords just get "The Horror", 5th ed ones had hypnotic gaze and aura of despair (which is basically the same thing as the horror). 2nd ed Patriarchs had access to the same list of powers everyone got in the rulebook, the Tyranid codex might have changed that but I lost mine.

Toning down some of the Chief Librarian abilities (Toughness and Strength definitely, Weapon Skill possibly with the other stats should remain about the same; it depends on whether Jedi abilities, the battle precognition especially, would make up for the enhanced reflexes of a Space Marine), would make it about equal or even give the Patriarch a slight edge.

Jedi reflexes should clearly make up for space marine reflexes, which are not that far above a human's. Genestealer, Eldar and Imperial Assassin reflexes are way above a Space Marine's in their universes.

The Cain books tend to treat them as synonyms

What does Cain know about Tyranids outside of personal experience and the odd flawed official Imperial report though?

Its possible that they are synonyms and that Patriarchs have been retconned into being faster and stronger than a regular genestealer but with weak psychic powers. I'm just saying that the old concept and the new concept are not the same.

hamishspence

2015-06-04, 06:05 AM

The person using the phrase isn't Cain himself though - but Amberley, to Cain. Ordo Xenos inquisitor, so an Imperial specialist in aliens.

Killer Angel

2015-06-05, 06:08 AM

Patriarchs are extremely agile too (unless you are Caiphas Cain), and as mentioned, they're fast/strong/tough enough to be a threat to Space Marine Librarians.

I hate to say so, but named characters are stronger than their standard counterpart and (within certain limits) have plot armor. By this reasoning, Palpatine should beat a Patriarch.

Tiki Snakes

2015-06-05, 07:56 AM

I still think that, in the right era, the GS' s MO will leat them to attempt to capture and convert Chanceler Palpatine.

Which means that the whole VS may logically hang on whether Darth Sidius can beat up a genestealer primarch or not. If he cant, game over. Order 66 any world about to be hit by the hivemind.
If he can, on the other hand, the genestealers secret is out, and the future emperor has a personal grudge against them. Again, game over.

Whilst it's probably accurate to say that he's a very tempting target for recruitment, (because if they get their tongue into him then he'll be an incredibly powerful darksider, emperor of the galaxy AND fanatically loyal to their cause/family), I'm not convinced it hinges on whether a patriarch can beat up the Emperor or not because why on earth would they ever be meeting in person? Like, ever? If the Genestealers are on top of events, then it'll be cultists ambushing him or some manner of insidious plot possibly involving double-blind manipulation of third parties.

And really, it's more or less the same if we switch that and look at the scenario with the Empire on top. Either they nuke the gene-cult from orbit, raid them with a hoard of disposable stormtroopers or send in some of the Emperors shadowy secret assassins type. Closest to direct confrontation would be that Palpatine would send in Vader because that's pretty much what Darth Vader is for. And he'd probably go in hard with the hoard of stormtroopers to back him up or even better soften the foe up in advance.

Palpatine can beat up anyone, except for that one fight where he was probably faking and fighting the best counter to his abilities. This is a guy who considers lightsabers to be an irrelevant joke and is still good enough with one to kill 3 Jedi Masters in seconds.
Haha, what? Really? Uh. Okay, I'm just going to take your word on that, I've not read much of the Expanded Universe directly featuring him but in the films he meets his end because a beat up one handed cyborg picks him up while he's chargin his lazor torturing luke, holds him squirming and terrified above his head and then tosses him into giant pit.

I mean, sure. If you want to establish he's the baddest dude in any room he's in and can beat anyone going without breaking into a sweat, I'll give it to you. I don't believe it for a second and I don't see that it was established, but sure. Let's say he is.

I don't think that's what he's about with the whole looking down on lightsabers thing. No, that's an extension of Darth Vader's line on the power of a planet-cracking star-station being irrelevant compared to the power of the force. He knows perfectly well that any conflict he's in will be decided on a metaphysical level, that his mastery of the esoteric side of being a force-user (rather than the video-gamey "force powers") is what ensures his triumph in any situation he's in. Because he's simply more in tune with (and has more command over) the Dark Side of the Force than anyone he's going to go up against. At least, that's what he thinks. I mean, as I see it, Luke's connection with the force simply proved superior in the end, as his rejection of Palpatine's seduction and his abandoning of small-f-force to decide the conflict in favour of appealing to his father's true nature proved to be the deciding factor, that was to my mind an obvious case of Luke's understanding of and connection to the force and the will of the force being stronger and more complete than Palpatine and his belief that the Dark Side could corrupt him. He lost the metaphysical battle when he gave up on corrupting Luke and resorted to directly destroying him.

Okay, that was a minor tangent. What I'm saying is, Palpatine isn't dangerous because he can kick your ass. Palpatine is dangerous because the power of a fully armed and operational battle-station pales in comparison to the power and influence of the Force.

I hate to say so, but named characters are stronger than their standard counterpart and (within certain limits) have plot armor. By this reasoning, Palpatine should beat a Patriarch.

That's... pretty terrible logic. Named tabletop characters are tougher usually than unnamed ones because unnamed ones represent the average and named represent the outliers. But we're not comparing Palpatine to an unnamed, average dark side user statline, we're guaging his capabilities from what we have actually seen and know, or can wildly guess at by deriving from those things.

Not that I see any reason to compare him to a Patriarch (and even if we did, it should be in the sense of how strong would a patriarch's connection to and resonance with the Force (dark or otherwise) be in comparison to Palpatine's).

No, see the obvious way Palpatine comes under attack is that you Gene-Steal a number of people with access to him, possibly people that he won't see coming, that he believes he has already beaten down and subjugated beyond doubt, safely bent to his dark will.

And if they have a cool robot-mask to hide their slowly developing mutations and some kind of force-destiny to destroy the old man or something, then that's icing on the cake.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/13/132327/2924581-anakin_skywalker_darth_vader_shadow_poster_6014.jp g
(Of course, recruiting Vader is not much easier, personally I'd set things up so that he's sent out to destroy an insurrection I'd instigated and then have him mobbed at the right moment at the end of his battle by cultists and 'stealers that I didn't want back. They don't have to win, just get the good stuff into him).

Foeofthelance

2015-06-05, 03:45 PM

Haha, what? Really? Uh. Okay, I'm just going to take your word on that, I've not read much of the Expanded Universe directly featuring him but in the films he meets his end because a beat up one handed cyborg picks him up while he's chargin his lazor torturing luke, holds him squirming and terrified above his head and then tosses him into giant pit.

I mean, sure. If you want to establish he's the baddest dude in any room he's in and can beat anyone going without breaking into a sweat, I'll give it to you. I don't believe it for a second and I don't see that it was established, but sure. Let's say he is.

I don't think that's what he's about with the whole looking down on lightsabers thing. No, that's an extension of Darth Vader's line on the power of a planet-cracking star-station being irrelevant compared to the power of the force. He knows perfectly well that any conflict he's in will be decided on a metaphysical level, that his mastery of the esoteric side of being a force-user (rather than the video-gamey "force powers") is what ensures his triumph in any situation he's in. Because he's simply more in tune with (and has more command over) the Dark Side of the Force than anyone he's going to go up against. At least, that's what he thinks. I mean, as I see it, Luke's connection with the force simply proved superior in the end, as his rejection of Palpatine's seduction and his abandoning of small-f-force to decide the conflict in favour of appealing to his father's true nature proved to be the deciding factor, that was to my mind an obvious case of Luke's understanding of and connection to the force and the will of the force being stronger and more complete than Palpatine and his belief that the Dark Side could corrupt him. He lost the metaphysical battle when he gave up on corrupting Luke and resorted to directly destroying him.

Okay, that was a minor tangent. What I'm saying is, Palpatine isn't dangerous because he can kick your ass. Palpatine is dangerous because the power of a fully armed and operational battle-station pales in comparison to the power and influence of the Force.

Mostly it sort of depends on which era Palpatine you're talking about. Return of the Jedi was essentially him at his weakest, while his strongest is implied to be somewhere around the era of the Clone Wars. Heavy use of the Dark Side is implied to have a major cost on one's health, and Palpatine was already in his late 80s at that point. That puts him in his mid sixties during the Clone Wars, where he was still able to go toe-to-toe with Mace Windu and Yoda.