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TheOneHawk
2015-05-31, 04:57 AM
So I want to build a campaign around taking down a LE dictator. I have some decent ideas for the overall setting and I even have the overlord statted out (I was originally going to play him in a high level PbP game) but I don't have a lot of ideas for things the party can do to destabilize the government and eventually take the guy out. I mean, killing other important members of the government would absolutely be helpful, and researching the leader himself to try and find his weaknesses, but there's got to be some obvious ideas I'm missing.

omnitricks
2015-05-31, 05:36 AM
A dictator normally remains in power because there are people supporting him and because there are people that do not think it is worth it to go against him.

Instead of killing the other important members of the government you should find some way to turn them against the dictator instead. Ambition, conflict of interest or just finding one of "those guys" (aka *******s) with a lot of resources should be able to slow him down if not completely block him off from doing anything legitimately.

Also by making him even less popular among the people for reasons (made up or otherwise) will force him to divert his resources to keeping everything in control. He may or may not start killing people off but every king still needs a kingdom to rule.

Eventually the two types of "factions" above will spawn more opponents against the dictator in whatever arena he chooses such as military and politics which will add to the damage which your party wouldn't be allowed to do alone.

Then besides the internal elements the party can look for other countries which are against the dictator. While they may not want to make it a military conflict they can also apply economic pressure by not sending him the stuff he wants/needs and not taking anything from him even if it means getting them from more expensive sources.

That said when taking down a leader (even a dictator) the people are going to suffer most of all so lets hope the party isn't looking to win any popularity contests or are doing this quietly so that no one has a reason to blame them for anything.

Shadowsend
2015-05-31, 05:55 AM
Well you can go in quite a few directions, depending on how your LE dictator is controlling his people to his benefit.



He could be taxing them near their breaking point. He would use these taxes to curry favor with nobility by throwing lavish parties and doing other quid-pro-quo things. This would allow your characters to go Robin Hood (break the tax collectors) or Game of Thrones (play the nobles against each other), depending on their particular bent.

He could have had a vision of oncoming doom, and be withholding or rationing vital supplies like food or medicine so that the country will survive, for a more Fable III type game (necessary evil?). In this case, he would also be taking his cut of the necessity first) Taking him down might be opening trade routes of the vital supply (quite a different approach than Robin Hood).

He could be literally enslaving people rather than oppressing them. Thus, an underground railroad movement would be needed.

(If you wanted him to be incredibly successful, I recommend reading about pre-WWII Hitler, and then reflavoring for a fantasy setting, of course). The people need to have been oppressed by their neighbors militarily and are turning to the BBEG to lead them into a new Golden Age.

He could have created a giant bureaucracy that is afraid of him to the last man. (Emperor Palpatine) Perhaps with an agent to dole out justice for perceived lack of performance (Darth Vader)

Finally, he could be trying to become a lich and press-ganging people into his army and starting wars (in the hopes that the war fills some sort of phylactery requirement) The PCs would need to create peace (I see this as being the high challenge option)



So decide on his personal goal (wealth, influence, military might, immortality, etc), his parameters for success and failure (the pieces needed), and a timeline in which he hopes to have accomplished his goal. These things will most likely be in flux, but must be in place at the beginning.

TheOneHawk
2015-05-31, 07:55 AM
He's already a lich, so that's out. Anyways, he's not actually a terrible ruler, many people are pretty happy with his reign. Homelessness is eradicated, crime is low, everyone has enough food, etc. the problem is that there is essentially no personal freedom. Children are indoctrinated from a young age at state run daycare, your job and housing are supplied by the state and you cannot choose to change professions or move, any crime is punished by forced labour for a period of time equal to the severity of the crime. He has people go around spamming detect chaos and adding any that ping to a national watch list, uses detect thoughts on people who are on said list to root out dissent, etc.

goto124
2015-05-31, 08:10 AM
There's got to be many people who support the strict regime- as you said, it's actually great, bread and circuses and stuff!

Also, what if the players decide to take over and control the place themselves :P Or they don't bother taking it down, considering how well it works?

Hawkstar
2015-05-31, 08:25 AM
The easiest way to take out a Dictator is to get in his good graces as a playwrite, put on many excellent shows and invite him to all of them, then blow up the theater while he's inside.

Maglubiyet
2015-05-31, 08:35 AM
Hmm, a totalitarian state with literal thought police. So the characters are actual "freedom fighters", trying to increase personal liberties. Killing high-level government members doesn't seem to help here since all of the control is in the bony hands of one individual -- it just makes the PC's criminals.

They will have to think very carefully about the consequences of succeeding and their responsibilities if they do. Sure, it's all fun and games blowing up the Death Star, but what happens the next day? Governments provide many necessary functions for society, especially since you said crime is low and everyone's well fed. If there aren't any plans beyond "topple the regime", then chaos quickly ensues. The losers are the weak and vulnerable, presumably the same members of society the PC's are trying to help.

If they're serious about improving the nation, and not just out to stir things up, then their goals should incorporate some sort of transition from the current despot to a more enlightened form of government. This will involve building alliances and gaining allies. When the BBEG is dead there should already be some network in place to step into the power vacuum. Whether the PC's are in charge or they help put someone more worthy in power will depend on them.

This suggests a course of action. Infiltrate high levels of the government and/or convert high-level members to the PC's cause. Use this closeness to the dictator-lich to kill him. Then continue on with the same bureaucratic infrastructure to minimize the impact on the nation. Institute reforms to prevent another dictator for taking the old guy's place. Otherwise it'll just become a chaotic power grab once the guy is dead.

TheOneHawk
2015-05-31, 10:04 AM
Killing high level government officials and finding ways to get people they want in power to take over the spot would be good. I don't want this to be a purely political game, though. I'm also planning on having the kingdom be at war with a neighbour to spread the regime and eventually bring law and order to the whole world. That's the endgame for BBEG, so presumably there could be some missions screwing with the military conquest and gaining allies in nearby countries.

bulbaquil
2015-05-31, 11:11 AM
I do think the goals are ultimately going to be dependent to an extent on why the party is opposing his rule. Some possibilities/questions:

1. How was the nation organized before the tyrant took the helm? Was it a democracy? Republic? Monarchy? Less-effective dictatorship? If the formerly homeless and starving are the "winners" from the tyrant's takeover, who are the "losers"? If we assume a previous standard fantasy feudal setting, the losers are likely going to include the landed gentry and nobility, who find their autonomy and authority curtailed.

2. How did the dictator obtain power in the first place? Are there questions regarding, say, the legitimacy of his rulership that nobody dares ask for fear of being executed or sent to the salt mines forever? Was there a coup d'état or revolution that brought him to power? Is he a usurper who could claim the throne, but who isn't top candidate for it? Or is he actually the full legitimate ruler, who just happens to be a LE tyrant?

3. Are there any rivals to the tyrant's social power that can't simply be purged out of existence without significant consequences? (E.g.: an iconic national hero whose execution might spark a widespread riot; a neighboring nation spreading counter-propaganda with enough of a military deterrent to discourage immediate conquest attempts; a multi-national church with an established presence inside the nation prior to the tyrant's takeover that can't simply be eliminated or banned outright without potentially prompting a crusade.)

4. Are there contingencies or implications that the tyrant might have overlooked, or elements of chaos that might be imposed on the order from external, uncontrollable sources? (E.g.: the state says you're a bargeman, but there's a drought and the river is dry; the state says you have to live in this house in this village... except that there was a fire, and the house burned down.)

TheOneHawk
2015-05-31, 11:25 AM
1. The plan was that nobody alive remembers life before the current ruler. He's a Lich, so he's been running the show for quite a while now, say a century? Previously it would have been a Monarchy but he took over with help from his old adventuring party and then settled in for the long haul.

2. A coup. It was a publically supported revolution against a corrupt monarchy. Overall, life has improved, but chaotic type people really chafe under the uber strict order of the place.

3. This could be useful. I particularly like the church idea. Perhaps the current leader of the church in dictatorland is helping the lich but if he were eliminated and a less controllable replacement brought in, religion can be powerful indeed.

4. Things the leader hasn't thought of are fine, he's a CHA based lich, so he's not INT 30+, he makes mistakes. What kinds of things could he have overlooked to help incite a rebellion/weaken his rule/get him in a position where he has to fight the party face to face?

Maglubiyet
2015-05-31, 11:49 AM
As stated in #3, if this is one nation among many, then there are likely many other power factions in play, like traders/merchants, international guilds and churches, military alliances. No doubt some of them would benefit from the lich losing power. This could be a foreign-funded rebellion.

Maybe even tie it to #2, the family of the former monarch fled into exile a century ago, taking refuge with their cousins in another land. The heirs and their supporters are still alive, nursing a grudge against the lich, and having the family name to back up their legitimacy to re-take the throne.

Yesterday's despotic ruler is today's hero in comparison to the current despotic ruler.

NRSASD
2015-05-31, 12:13 PM
You can always have the neighboring countries funding insurgencies within the lich's kingdom. Maybe some of his more chaotic advisers are actually already supporting it.

Just out of curiosity, why is the lich LE? He sounds more extreme LN to me so far.

TheOneHawk
2015-05-31, 12:38 PM
Evil is a requirement for Lich, for one. He is definitely more Lawful than Evil, but some of his methods go a bit too far. He's very much about the greater good, so if he has to kill an innocent child to preserve law and order, he absolutely will, without a hint of regret.

Shadowsend
2015-05-31, 01:14 PM
I think you may not be making him quite evil enough, and thus not giving PCs a reason to actually want to depose him. So until he affects them personally, I doubt they will do much to stop him.

Maglubiyet
2015-05-31, 02:32 PM
Evil is a requirement for Lich, for one. He is definitely more Lawful than Evil, but some of his methods go a bit too far. He's very much about the greater good, so if he has to kill an innocent child to preserve law and order, he absolutely will, without a hint of regret.

By "greater good", you mean his own self interest, right? Like, he's got slave mines cranking out all the mithril ore he needs for his latest experiments, so he'll make sure the slaves don't all die of starvation or disease because that might put him behind schedule. But it's not like he's got a lot of laws on the books about human rights and fair compensation and whatnot.

Otherwise, why would anyone want to overthrow him? So far he doesn't sound all that bad, certainly not worse than some RL dictators. He might need a really dark edge that labels him as the inhuman undead creature he is. Like maybe he considers the old and sick to be useless if they can't work, so he converts the infirm into tireless undead so they can continue to serve him.

Red Fel
2015-05-31, 02:36 PM
I think you may not be making him quite evil enough, and thus not giving PCs a reason to actually want to depose him. So until he affects them personally, I doubt they will do much to stop him.

Very much this.

Look, I'm a big fan of LE tyrants. I happen to think they do a fantastic job of keeping order, cleaning up the streets, and making the trains run on time. So if you're telling me, "He's an Evil Lich, he's got to go down," my first reaction is, "Why?" You yourself acknowledge "Overall, life has improved, but chaotic type people really chafe under the uber strict order of the place." If the worst people face is the idea of "Comply, leave, or die," it's really just grim, not atrocious. And you acknowledge that he cares about the greater good of his kingdom. Do the people realize that? I mean, do they realize that if he kills a child, he's not just doing it to be a jerk? That there's a reason for what he does?

If you truly want to motivate the PCs to stop him, you've got to step up the villainy. People toiling under whips. Children killed or sold off into slavery to pay the kingdom's debts. Horrific rituals performed on the dead. Puppies kicked just for funsies. Make it a nightmare existence.

As to how to defeat him, I agree that either (1) the church or (2) neighboring countries are going to give you the leverage you need. Either one is strong enough to lean on him without being instantly crushed by his guards; creating that conflict will give your players the opportunity they need to get in close and finish him off.

Hawkstar
2015-05-31, 02:53 PM
Horrific rituals performed on the living, as well. Of course, my current 13th Age character would never rebel against such an authority anyway, given that he believes that the purpose of people is to serve their Empire, rather than the other way around. But that's just the thoughts of an ancient mechanical guardian of an oppressive theocratic god-empire.

Vrock_Summoner
2015-05-31, 02:57 PM
Alternatively, depending on your players, this could just be your normal run-of-the-mill revolution, except with high-level PCs at the helm. Like, instead of there being a super nasty dictator that everyone would oppose if not for fear of death or losing status, maybe he's just a semi-nasty guy who's doing as much good as bad, so your PCs will actually only have some allies among extremist factions rather than just having everybody they can "free" be automatically on their side.

Less heroic, but definitely more tense and unpredictable.

TheOneHawk
2015-05-31, 08:35 PM
Some of the more evil things I had planned for him are:

Euthanasia of anyone no longer able to work. Old? Dead. Horribly wounded as a hero in battle? Dead. Mentally retarded? Dead.

Slowly but surely conquering and forcing his new subjects to adhere to his laws, putting down any dissent with lethal and extreme shows of force in newly captured areas.

His most elite guards are hand selected from applicants and then made undead so that they never stop serving him. As an aside, anyone know a Pathfinder or 3.5 type of undead that retains spellcasting, physical abilities and intelligence, but lacks free will?



Overall though, the game would be more Chaos vs Law than Good vs Evil, and I would tell my players such during character creation.

Karl Aegis
2015-05-31, 09:40 PM
So you're doing Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood, but instead of real immortals spending centuries to do a naughty ritual you're using failures of immortals that haven't thought about doing the naughty ritual yet. I would want to kill this guy for how short-sighted he is. How long is his plan? Two, maybe three centuries? He really needs to step his game up before extradimensional murderers target him.

THEChanger
2015-05-31, 10:53 PM
For 3.5, the best mechanical fit for those elites is Dread Warrior from Unapproachable East. Created via the Animate Dread Warrior spell, a 6th level Necromancy from the same book, a Dread Warrior retains all class skills they had in life, remains intelligent (albeit with a -6 to Intelligence and a -4 to Charisma, but boosting Strength by 4), and is unfailingly loyal to the caster...unless a suitably powerful cleric comes along and rebukes the suckers, or they're given an order longer than 12 words, which has a chance to confuse them.

Or, I suppose you could use the Necropolitan template from Libris Mortis. Essentially you lose a level and 1,000 xp and gain Undead traits, along with a little Turning Resistance. While nothing in the book makes Necropolitans beholden to their creator, you are the DM, so that can easily be fiated in.

Vrock_Summoner
2015-06-01, 02:24 AM
Euthanasia of anyone no longer able to work. Old? Dead. Horribly wounded as a hero in battle? Dead. Mentally retarded? Dead.

Eh, seems very "millionaire steals candy from babies" sort of evil.

The mentally retarded one, sure, that makes sense, take it out of the gene pool, they wouldn't have done anything useful, and it'll make everybody with a shred of morality hate him and anybody who enforces his laws. But a good dictator doesn't just oppress for the sake of oppression, he oppresses for the sake of efficiency, so a smart dictator makes it so that the people who support him the most can have good things to look forward to. That not only makes people more loyal, but also makes the ones who won't be loyal no matter what have significant interest in doing well simply so they'll reap the benefits. Like, people who do better work get better "once you're old" options, and "heroes" (as much as you can call anyone who supports this dictatorship whole-heartedly) are actually hailed as heroes, because that encourages people to do those things. Dictatorships work best when the people are being brainwashed into thinking that the dictatorship is the best thing ever, which is generally much harder when there's nothing good to point to except military accomplishment.

Efficiency, effectiveness, and loyalty to the state won't be things people feel are enforced with death threats... They're things that will be seem as the paramount virtues.

I think you're not fully considering how each alignment treats things, and how each alignment gets their job done best. You're after the typical overlordy actions of a Chaotic Evil dictator, but you see "effective dictatorship" and immediately want to put LE at the top, because that's what people think when they think of an effective lawful dictatorship. But it's not so cut and dry. A dictatorship ruled by an Evil despot, with all the citizens looking out for themselves and just trying to survive while getting away with whatever they can, only feigning loyalty when somebody's watching, can work, and it can be a lot more effective than it initially appears, though it's not exactly prone to absorb shocks (such as war) well. But it's about as far from the Lawful way to do it as you can get.

(I mean, I guess the villain could technically be LE, I just can't see how he'd stay that way given his severely unLawful ruling style.)

TheOneHawk
2015-06-01, 02:46 AM
While true that you would get more loyalty out of people if they had something to look forward to if they worked hard enough (Like Taldor's unbearded having that one a billion shot at becoming a senator if they work hard enough) it's inefficient and difficult to arbitrate fairly. The image I had in my mind was a totalitarian state focused entirely on efficient use of it citizens. Art and fictional literature are banned because they don't contribute to the overall goal of world domination and perfect law, order and equality across the globe.

There does need to be a reason for people to be loyal to the state. Empty lives of long hard hours with no promise of a better tomorrow is a dreary life indeed. Perhaps a state religion that teaches the value of working hard and after you die your service to the country will see you rewarded. Heck, the killing of a wounded hero or old man who worked for 70 years and can't do it anymore could be a -reward- to them. Taught since childhood and all through their lives that their work in this life will be rewarded in the next (like so many real world religions) the euthanasia of those no longer useful could be a celebration. Having the church be a big part of how the country operates would also put far more importance on changing its leadership.

Red Fel
2015-06-01, 07:17 AM
While true that you would get more loyalty out of people if they had something to look forward to if they worked hard enough (Like Taldor's unbearded having that one a billion shot at becoming a senator if they work hard enough) it's inefficient and difficult to arbitrate fairly. The image I had in my mind was a totalitarian state focused entirely on efficient use of it citizens. Art and fictional literature are banned because they don't contribute to the overall goal of world domination and perfect law, order and equality across the globe.

There does need to be a reason for people to be loyal to the state. Empty lives of long hard hours with no promise of a better tomorrow is a dreary life indeed. Perhaps a state religion that teaches the value of working hard and after you die your service to the country will see you rewarded. Heck, the killing of a wounded hero or old man who worked for 70 years and can't do it anymore could be a -reward- to them. Taught since childhood and all through their lives that their work in this life will be rewarded in the next (like so many real world religions) the euthanasia of those no longer useful could be a celebration. Having the church be a big part of how the country operates would also put far more importance on changing its leadership.

The problem is that this level of totalitarian "use every part of the citizen" mentality can be taken to a logical extreme, that being zombies and/or robots. Why exactly doesn't this mighty and terrifying Evil Overlord simply kill the citizenry now, instead of waiting for them to become old or feeble, and replace them with workers who will never falter or fail? Constructs and undead who can work night and day, fight without objection, serve without thought? Obviates the need for a church or other power within his borders. If need be, the citizenry can be limited to the few who maintain the workforce.

Killing them off when they become to frail may seem utilitarian, but it doesn't incentivize loyalty, service, or a desire to stay in that kingdom. People will flee in droves, and trying to stop them just means killing them now instead of later. You'd have to come up with a plot-contrived reason that people don't leave other than "hopelessness."

That said, I do think your "state execution of those unable to work in a circus or celebratory atmosphere" concept has some good merit. It's smart. Keeps the people entertained. Points for that.

Maglubiyet
2015-06-01, 07:57 AM
Why exactly doesn't this mighty and terrifying Evil Overlord simply kill the citizenry now, instead of waiting for them to become old or feeble, and replace them with workers who will never falter or fail?

Paladins. Pesky paladin orders in the neighboring kingdoms. Killing everyone is a surefire way to get rabid, hysterical crusaders showing up at awkward times, ruining all your Planar Bindings and congresses with the Lower Planes.

Of course, maybe he's taking the long view of an immortal being and plans to eventually fill the entire kingdom with his undead vassals. Each death is another step in that direction.

He may have depopulated vast areas of the countryside and keeps the living in highly visible areas, like ports and trade routes, so that foreign visitors won't go home talking about an unholy land of walking dead. Paladins get off on that kind of thing.

Red Fel
2015-06-01, 09:03 AM
Paladins. Pesky paladin orders in the neighboring kingdoms. Killing everyone is a surefire way to get rabid, hysterical crusaders showing up at awkward times, ruining all your Planar Bindings and congresses with the Lower Planes.

Of course, maybe he's taking the long view of an immortal being and plans to eventually fill the entire kingdom with his undead vassals. Each death is another step in that direction.

He may have depopulated vast areas of the countryside and keeps the living in highly visible areas, like ports and trade routes, so that foreign visitors won't go home talking about an unholy land of walking dead. Paladins get off on that kind of thing.

And Paladins don't get worked up over slavery and euthenasia of the weak and elderly? That just strikes me as inconsistent.

Either (1) this guy is such a horrible monstrous tyrant that any neighboring kingdom or force with any kind of compassion is searching for a way to kill him, or (2) there are no neighboring countries, or at least none that care, or (3) this kingdom is so powerful, rich, or influential that even though the neighbors may care, they don't dare do anything. If #1, it makes no difference whether it's forced labor or zombie labor; he's going to have enemies. If #2, it makes no difference either; nobody's around who gives a hoot. If #3, it still makes no difference, because nobody is able to act.

Either way you look at it, if he's willing to go to this extreme, you have to come up with a reason more than "I don't want to annoy the neighbors" why he even bothers to keep his populace alive, rather than replace them with mindless automatons.

Heck, even if you don't kill and replace them, mind control could be a thing. Why not use that?

Having people who remain alive, who know that you will kill them when they are no longer of use, and who could foment rebellion or spy for your enemies or join a church that will rise against you, just seems like poor planning.

TheOneHawk
2015-06-01, 10:03 AM
Poor planning is somewhat acceptable. He's smart, but not 30+ INT wizard smart. That said, as far as zombifying the nation, I'm sure the thought has occurred to him. Realistically he can't do it, though. He can't do it all in one fell swoop because spell slots, and doing it a little at a time would eventually be noticed and probably spawn a revolution. You can promise people an afterlife and they'll listen, but start reanimating their father's corpse and putting him back to work and you'll likely get some trouble pretty quickly.

Red Fel
2015-06-01, 10:21 AM
Poor planning is somewhat acceptable. He's smart, but not 30+ INT wizard smart. That said, as far as zombifying the nation, I'm sure the thought has occurred to him. Realistically he can't do it, though. He can't do it all in one fell swoop because spell slots, and doing it a little at a time would eventually be noticed and probably spawn a revolution. You can promise people an afterlife and they'll listen, but start reanimating their father's corpse and putting him back to work and you'll likely get some trouble pretty quickly.

And here's where I'd disagree. Putting the zombie workforce together is a remarkably easy thing if you have a bit of foresight, marketing skill, and business acumen.

Step 1: Legalize necromancy. Within your borders, and subject to government oversight and regulation, industrialized necromancy becomes a thing. Given how necromancers are frequently persecuted, in hiding, or on the run, they will flock to you, thus solving the spell slot problem.

Step 2: Contracts. It's simple. Some people can work, are paid a working wage, and survive. Others can't work, and can't afford the cost of living. Offer them a simple solution. They sell their corpses. You pay them a living wage (based on actuarial calculations and life expectancy) for the remainder of their natural lives. Alternatively, offer their families a lump sum of they agree to immediate execution. In exchange, they agree to submit their corpse for reanimation immediately upon death. You have now removed the concern that people will be horrified and revolt; they will be happy to be zombified, because they get paid for it. People will actually line up to die and be reanimated, knowing that their families will receive money and be able to live well for a time.

Step 3: Once zombies are a way of life in the city, once people are used to walking past the walking dead on the way to and from work, start pushing the paradigm shift. A lot of people will leave, out of disgust with the corpses all over the place. That's fine. Criminals can be executed and immediately reanimated as a form of punishment. Those who remain will soon be outnumbered by those who shamble. Once you reach that point, sweep in and clean out the rest; there'll be nothing they can do.

It's that simple. The people are already a starving slave labor force. Trade them a bit of comfort now for the voluntary reanimation of their corpses later. You avoid messy revolutions and disgust. You get a team of talented necromancers to handle your undead workforce. Your expenses as ruler drop dramatically, and profits increase, as more of your workforce becomes the walking dead, and thus lacks a need for food, shelter, or rest.

Using constructs is even easier, since you can actually use your slave laborers to build their replacements, and there's less moral outrage over walking statues.

TheOneHawk
2015-06-01, 10:29 AM
That could work, yeah. I don't know if I want it to, though. Though the early stages of that could be a solid time to start the game, giving the PC's a strong reason to rebel.

I want to thank everyone for the input, by the way, keep it coming. This is really helping me flesh out my ideas and bring a more cohesive game together. When I eventually run it, I'll have you guys to thank if it goes well :)

As I see it, there's going to be a couple stages to the revolution. Early game, the PC's will live in the shadows, I figure their first mission would involve getting themselves removed from the list of living citizens and the watch list (which they would likely all be on to begin with), then spreading dissent and gaining a following (ideas for how to do this in game without making whoever the face is have the spotlight forever?)

Mid game, the party will be coordinating an actual resistance, fighting skirmishes with troops and bringing whole towns under their banner to fight.

Late game, the party will have a full fledged war on their hands, possibly with support from allied nations, and eventually bring down the Lich (likely more than once, phylactery is op)

What kinds of missions would be fun to play and have a real impact on the revolution for each stage of the game?

Reltzik
2015-06-01, 10:42 AM
One thing to do is go through the Evil Overlord list and look for potential mistakes. An evil overlord won't make ALL of these mistakes, but most will make a few of them, and those are the weaknesses for your players to exploit. Some possibilities just from the first 20:

3. My noble half-brother whose throne I usurped will be killed, not kept anonymously imprisoned in a forgotten cell of my dungeon.

5. The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness.

18. I will not have a son. Although his laughably under-planned attempt to usurp power would easily fail, it would provide a fatal distraction at a crucial point in time.

Also, the Evil Overlord might not be done gathering power. Does he have a neighbor to conquer? Another plane to conquer? Immortality to achieve? Is he about to enhance all his troops with telepathic powers, instantly dooming all members of the underground? Did an informant just rat the PCs out, flooding their home base with enemies and turning it into an unexpected dungeon? You can throw in a lot of quests that are about last-minute desparate scrambles to just stay alive, before they finally get the satisfaction of taking the guy down.

Red Fel
2015-06-01, 10:43 AM
That could work, yeah. I don't know if I want it to, though. Though the early stages of that could be a solid time to start the game, giving the PC's a strong reason to rebel.

That's actually a perfect setup, come to think of it. Consider this a quickie timeline.
There is a leader of a kingdom someplace. The leader can be a tyrant or a beloved leader, at your discretion. He has a second-in-command who is coldly rational, and utilitarian to the point of a sociopathic lack of empathy. For bonus points, have the PCs run into these guys early in their career. The leader dies. It can be obvious murder, or complete accident, or murder made to look like an accident. Because he had no heirs, he is succeeded by his second-in-command, the guy who knew how everything works and what everything does. The second-in-command starts instituting reforms. He nationalizes industries, consolidates the workforce, consolidates housing, etc. It's a lot of change, but it creates a lot of order, so responses are mixed. He legalizes necromancy. This turns some heads. His rule becomes more severe, more legalistic, less friendly. Work hours are longer, criminals are punished more brutally. The nobles are disenfranchised, their wealth and estates escheat to the state, and they are forced to join the ranks of the great unwashed in the workforce. The zombie contracts begin. Zombies soon outnumber the living. Those who can afford to move away from the city. Those who can't simply hold their breath, or sell themselves into execution and zombification. Eventually, the only living are the necromancer overseers and the ruler himself.
At 1, there's no threat. At 2, you could introduce the party to the succession intrigue, or they could arrive as the throne has changed hands. At 3, introducing the PCs allows them to debate the merits and flaws of the BBEG's reforms. At 4, you get your first big hint of Evil. At 5, the place turns into a tyranny. At 6, the PCs hear rumors of necromancers offering people bribes to sell their bodies to science undeath, all totally legal. By 7, the end is inevitable. By 8, you have a full-blown evil empire.

Maglubiyet
2015-06-01, 10:48 AM
Having people who remain alive, who know that you will kill them when they are no longer of use, and who could foment rebellion or spy for your enemies or join a church that will rise against you, just seems like poor planning.

Yeah, it's a good point, especially since he's had a century to work on this. One problem with that, though, is that you can only control so many HD with the various Animate/Control Undead spells. That's leaves a lot of free-roaming spirits, any of which might intentionally or unintentionally screw up his plans.

He may be in it for the long game and figures that the living are more tractable and that the risk of rebellion is low. If he's converted everyone who's died since he took power, there still should be more undead than living in the kingdom at this point. He can call on a vast reserve of evilness if he's ever threatened.

The citizenry provide a continued supply of souls/bodies, which is why he maintains a viable breeding population. To keep those he doesn't straight up Charm in check, he's got spin doctors that run a constant public relations campaign. Public statues of him, songs praising his name, Saviour Lich Day, that sort of thing. A cult of personality built up around their immortal, god-emperor who vanquished the frail and petty, evil king 100 years ago. You can sell almost anything with enough resources and reinforcement.

This brewing rebellion could be the few who have seen behind the curtain. They realize that they are all just sheep for the slaughter.

Maglubiyet
2015-06-01, 10:52 AM
At 1, there's no threat. At 2, you could introduce the party to the succession intrigue, or they could arrive as the throne has changed hands. At 3, introducing the PCs allows them to debate the merits and flaws of the BBEG's reforms. At 4, you get your first big hint of Evil. At 5, the place turns into a tyranny. At 6, the PCs hear rumors of necromancers offering people bribes to sell their bodies to science undeath, all totally legal. By 7, the end is inevitable. By 8, you have a full-blown evil empire.

It's sort of the frog in the boiling water type of scenario.*


*(For those of you who don't know, I've heard that you can put a frog in a pot of water and then heat it up slowly on the stove. The gradual change in temperate doesn't alarm the frog so it will remain in the pot until the water boils. Serve with a side of french fries.)

TheOneHawk
2015-06-01, 10:52 AM
Also, the Evil Overlord might not be done gathering power. Does he have a neighbor to conquer? Yes Another plane to conquer? Eh, let's finish the Material first Immortality to achieve? Already a Lich Is he about to enhance all his troops with telepathic powers, instantly dooming all members of the underground? I plan on his elite guard being telepathic, mute undead. Did an informant just rat the PCs out, flooding their home base with enemies and turning it into an unexpected dungeon? Oh yes, this absolutely. Also rescuing people from dungeons before they rat you out would be good. You can throw in a lot of quests that are about last-minute desparate scrambles to just stay alive, before they finally get the satisfaction of taking the guy down.

Specific answers in bold. One mission that could be good in the early game would be sabotaging the military so their invasion of a neighbouring country has to be delayed, allowing them time to properly organize and defend. In return, they promise to support the party when their revolution takes off.

Hawkstar
2015-06-01, 10:53 AM
The problem is that this level of totalitarian "use every part of the citizen" mentality can be taken to a logical extreme, that being zombies and/or robots. Why exactly doesn't this mighty and terrifying Evil Overlord simply kill the citizenry now, instead of waiting for them to become old or feeble, and replace them with workers who will never falter or fail? Constructs and undead who can work night and day, fight without objection, serve without thought? Obviates the need for a church or other power within his borders. If need be, the citizenry can be limited to the few who maintain the workforce.

Zombies do not naturally reproduce.

Maglubiyet
2015-06-01, 10:54 AM
Zombies do not naturally reproduce.

The half-zombie template suggests otherwise. :tongue:

TheOneHawk
2015-06-01, 10:55 AM
The half-zombie template suggests otherwise. :tongue:

I think I'm gonna be sick

Hawkstar
2015-06-01, 10:58 AM
The half-zombie template suggests otherwise. :tongue:
That's not how that template's applied (If it even exists)

Red Fel
2015-06-01, 11:05 AM
Zombies do not naturally reproduce.

"Zombies" and "natural" don't even belong in the same sentence.

And you don't need your zombies to reproduce, because they don't die. They just keep working. You can always acquire more corpses. The world is full of them. Or it will be, once your BBEG has had his say about the matter.

Hawkstar
2015-06-01, 11:33 AM
"Zombies" and "natural" don't even belong in the same sentence.

And you don't need your zombies to reproduce, because they don't die.Until something destroys them.

They just keep working.Until OSHA Violations do them in.

You can always acquire more corpses.Until you run out. Corpses cannot be re-used.

The world is full of them. Or it will be, once your BBEG has had his say about the matter.
Not for a long-term goal. You WILL run out if you kill everyone. And, undead can get pretty expensive to create.

Maglubiyet
2015-06-01, 11:54 AM
That's not how that template's applied (If it even exists)

I wish I were making it up! This one appeared in the article "Born of Death: Half-Undead and Their Kin", Dragon Magazine #313.

Gheden
One parent was a mindless undead.
Sunken black eyes, gray corpse-like skin, gaunt, but muscular. Smells like freshly-dug grave.
Template may be applied to any Giant, Humanoid, or Monstrous Humanoid.

The addendum to this is that Gheden are "usually due to the tinkering of a Necromancer". We dare not speculate on the cases that are "not usually".

Red Fel
2015-06-01, 12:03 PM
The addendum to this is that Gheden are "usually due to the tinkering of a Necromancer". We dare not speculate on the cases that are "not usually".

Then there's the Lich Loved feat, which in all likelihood is the origin of the "not usually" cases of Gheden.

It's exactly what it sounds like. Ew.

TheOneHawk
2015-06-02, 02:46 AM
So a few organizations within the country that I have worked out somewhat, anything I'm missing/any improvements?

Silver Swords: Elite guards. Undead, though most people don't know it. Many apply to join them, because their immediate family will be taken care of by the state until the family dies. Wear full plate at all times, never speak and communicate with each other telepathically with a range of ~100 feet. I'll be using the Pathfinder Hellknight Commander and Enforcer prestige classes to advance them, seems appropriate.

Thought Police (not actually what I want to call them, haven't come up with anything yet): Group of casters loyal to the state that wander the streets spamming detect chaos then adding any who ping to their watch list, and using detect thoughts regularly on people on the watch list to detect possible dissent and revolution.

Some kind of assassin group: Takes out people marked by the thought police as dangerous dissenters. Generally speaking, they attempt to make the death look natural unless they are trying to send a message.

The Church: Preaches that those who are particularly hard working and loyal to the state in their lives will live on in eternal glory and happiness in basically heaven. Total bull****, but it's the state religion and everyone is forced to attend daily services for their entire lives, so most people buy it.

Then there's stuff like merchants and advisors and the like that most countries would have, this is just the stuff that's specific and important to the campaign I have in mind. Thoughts?

Karl Aegis
2015-06-02, 03:24 AM
What kind of death "looks natural" in this kind of setting? Euthanasia happens often, accidental injuries mean death for every party (accident wouldn't have happened if someone didn't screw up), the dead walk the street, and illness means death. There isn't an obvious natural death for your setting. A natural death is perhaps the most unnatural death for these people. It's just strange.

TheOneHawk
2015-06-02, 04:45 AM
That... is a fairly solid point actually. Hrm.

Edit: Though, to be fair, just because you mess up and hurt someone accidentally, you won't be killed. You will be warned, and if it happens again perhaps get to spend some time doing forced slave labour, but killing citizens only happens when they are either dissenters or incapable of ever working again. Getting sick doesn't mean you'll be euthanized, unless it's a wasting, terminal disease that you won't recover from and simply be a drain on society until you die.

Onyavar
2015-06-02, 05:39 AM
So, this lich is actually a rather wise dictator with a reasonably enlighted government, when he has worked many of those angles out and doesn't go into mindless slaughter. Many of the mistakes on the EOL need wisdom instead of intelligence to prevent them. (Note that "wise" and "enlighted" doesn't mean good).

What's his original class? (sorry if I overread an answer regarding that). If it's wisdom based, he could be the evil high priest who now seeks to ascend to his own godhood by becoming the godking? Or if its multi-tiered, he could be a former blackguard or an evil aristocrat?

Um, on your mission to overthrow him, I can imagine seval sub-missions. Infiltrate his army to identify rebel generals? (Sure, his undead elite can't be suborned, but they need to find that out first). If there are foreign countries that the lich's country is peaceful with, the heroes can try and sow dissent - maybe stage raids disguised as the overlords troops, trying to play the lesser evil country against the big bad, and allowing the good foreign countries to invade from the other side. Have the ruler of the good foreigners send them.

Maybe the big bad has a block of allied states - while the evil lich is investing all his resources into installing puppet governments (bribes first, next an allied evil ruler, finally an undead minion who signs everything over to him). The heroes can gain experience by thwarting those attempts, which also weakens the big bad. If the attempts succeed, the populace still won't be too happy about it, so they could try and form/lead the rebellion.

Another thing is sabotage. Imagine that the lich has to rely on a network of different-leveled undead messengers to stay in control of everything. Killing the undead messengers can disrupt whole arms of local government. Switching the messages would be even greater: The overlord's orders don't go missing - the orders are just false and are causing good - like execution of hired necromancers on the pretense that the boss doesn't trust them anymore.

TheOneHawk
2015-06-02, 07:46 AM
Not a cleric, his wisdom is like his int. good not great, I think it's around 14 off the top of my head. He's an eldritch scion magus. Lots of good stuff in that post, thanks

NRSASD
2015-06-02, 01:18 PM
The bulk of the Lich's army is still human/alive right? And so are the lower level commanders? One thing you could do is the classic Lord of The Ring's gambit: focus the Lich's attention on one location, then hit him from another angle.

For example, the PCs could spend their early days raiding caravans, destroying guard posts, etc. while disguised as troops from the neighboring country. Then have one of the Lich's living commanders, who actually despises his King, work with the PCs to maximize the effectiveness of their raids. Said Commander makes accurate predictions about what areas are going to be hit, but for various reasons he is ignored until its too late. This makes him look good but the Lich look dumb and more importantly, beatable. This would breed doubt in the ranks and make the rebellion way easier to pull off if the army comes apart once a civil war starts.

The only thing that this plan really needs to work is for the high-ranking thought police to be sloppy. They may dismiss the commander as not a threat, may be bribed to look the other way, may be too busy throwing parties, what have you. It is somewhat plausible, because they've been in power for a century and probably have only had to deal with unruly peasants and the odd spy. With an accurate and efficient thought police though, almost any form of rebellion is impossible.

TheOneHawk
2015-06-02, 09:01 PM
I agree there needs to be a certain level of inefficiency in the thought police. Either there's not enough of them to do it properly, or they've gotten sloppy. I want them to be good enough to be a threat, but not good enough to just automatically win.

Hawkstar
2015-06-02, 09:07 PM
From what I saw, there's a big Lawful- and Neutral-shaped hole in the Thought Police network.

Wardog
2015-06-13, 03:03 PM
Poor planning is somewhat acceptable. He's smart, but not 30+ INT wizard smart. That said, as far as zombifying the nation, I'm sure the thought has occurred to him. Realistically he can't do it, though. He can't do it all in one fell swoop because spell slots, and doing it a little at a time would eventually be noticed and probably spawn a revolution. You can promise people an afterlife and they'll listen, but start reanimating their father's corpse and putting him back to work and you'll likely get some trouble pretty quickly.

Maybe you can think up a way that he could do it - and that could be the hook to get your players to want to overthrow him.

"An evil lich rules this land, but people accept it because he maintains law and order, and makes the trains run on time. But you've discovered that he's working on a plan to kill his entire population and raise them as zombies!"

Reltzik
2015-06-15, 08:27 PM
Give people a simple way of avoiding notice by the Thought Police... like reciting "Mary had a little lamb" over and over and over and over in their heads. Save versus insanity once per hour, and take a -4 on all checks based on cha, wis, or int.

Cluedrew
2015-06-15, 09:34 PM
Personally I think there should be some other limiting factor to the rate of creating undead. For instance say that creating a quality zombie that doesn't wear out after a month, or doesn't crumble to dust after a short spell duration, is actually really expensive. Or perhaps there is the "death limit" which means undead need a certain number of living people nearby. Killing the people and having the undead eat the people also works but then you run out of people.

I feel when you try to go to an extreme with magic you should try to develop it a bit more then its pure mechanical representation.

TheOneHawk
2015-06-15, 10:22 PM
Give people a simple way of avoiding notice by the Thought Police... like reciting "Mary had a little lamb" over and over and over and over in their heads. Save versus insanity once per hour, and take a -4 on all checks based on cha, wis, or int.

A way of disguising their alignment would probably work wonders. Detect Chaos is a big part of how I see them operating.

Hawkstar
2015-06-16, 09:50 AM
A way of disguising their alignment would probably work wonders. Detect Chaos is a big part of how I see them operating.

Or not even bothering to disguise it. "This... this stagnation is not Order![/i]" Neutral and Lawful characters can oppose him freely.

TheOneHawk
2015-06-16, 11:55 AM
True enough, though I do feel lawful types would be more likely to accept such a regime than chaotics.

AxeAlex
2015-06-16, 01:47 PM
"Zombies" and "natural" don't even belong in the same sentence.

And you don't need your zombies to reproduce, because they don't die. They just keep working. You can always acquire more corpses. The world is full of them. Or it will be, once your BBEG has had his say about the matter.

Im not convinced... Corpse could break and be destroyed and become unusables, and this could happens simply by accomplishing by various tasks and not knowing their limits or having any instinct of self-preservation.

Corpse are created by the living. If you replace the living with the dead, you WILL run out of corpses.

Futhermore, he'll need many Necromancers, and THEY control the zombies, not him. And the undead don't fear him, they could be ordered to kill him... A living soldier? He'll not take that risk.

And more importantly, corpses are poor company. Lawful Evil characters love the power, love ambition, and are still social creatures. The LE Tyrant loves to have courtesans fawning over him, enemies fearing him, allies praising him, servants obeying him. The way I see it, the "Lawful" alignment implies some sort of social need that is probably note fulfilled with zombies.

One easy way to have your Tyrant hated is discrimination... Just make Hitler out of him. Maybe he hates all non-humans, or want to completely wipe out a minority or religion.
He could also have a typical medieval society and be really efficient - for the nobility. Maybe all the nobles and aristocrats love him, but the peasants are poor, ill, and die young, and no one in power will ever help them because THEY actually love, fear and respect the Evil Overlord because he's good to THEM.

Flickerdart
2015-06-16, 02:21 PM
Futhermore, he'll need many Necromancers, and THEY control the zombies, not him. And the undead don't fear him, they could be ordered to kill him... A living soldier? He'll not take that risk.
Solution: undead necromancers! A vampire or any other spawning undead can simply do his thing, while undead spellcasters can raise and command the dead through spells.

As for making more resilient undead than rotting zombies, flesh golems are an excellent solution. A construction crew would benefit from having a flesh golem do the heavy lifting alongside small squads of zombies coordinated by intelligent undead, who are in turn coordinated by a single overseer.

AxeAlex
2015-06-16, 03:17 PM
Solution: undead necromancers! A vampire or any other spawning undead can simply do his thing, while undead spellcasters can raise and command the dead through spells.

As for making more resilient undead than rotting zombies, flesh golems are an excellent solution. A construction crew would benefit from having a flesh golem do the heavy lifting alongside small squads of zombies coordinated by intelligent undead, who are in turn coordinated by a single overseer.

Yeah ok, but you still NEED the living in order to have these corpses, especially for a Immortal being who wants to plan for an immortal empire.

Then again, if he's a poweful of a lich, he can probably find a way to repair those corpses, or have some kind of hellish warren where he grows soulless corpses... That's actually pretty metal!

NowhereMan583
2015-06-16, 05:37 PM
I don't have a lot of ideas for things the party can do to destabilize the government and eventually take the guy out.

You don't need any. Coming up with cunning plans is the players' job.:smallamused:


One thing to do is go through the Evil Overlord list and look for potential mistakes. An evil overlord won't make ALL of these mistakes, but most will make a few of them, and those are the weaknesses for your players to exploit.

Alternately, go through the Evil Overlord List and make sure the villain makes none of those mistakes. Again, handing the players a solution? Not your job.

As to how to horrify the players enough to give them incentive to rebel:

Crank the absolute dreariness of the kingdom up a notch. Your average commoner wakes up in their state-assigned house, goes to their state-assigned job, works from dawn to dusk, comes home to their state-assigned spouse, makes a token effort towards producing the next generation of workers, and goes to sleep. The next day they do the same thing all over again. There is nothing else. This is what they have been doing since they were old enough to work (child labor in this setting? totally a thing) and what they will continue doing until they are too old to continue, at which point they will go to their state-assigned necromancy station for immediate execution.

There is no art, because "artist" is not a state-assigned job. The closest thing is the production of propaganda that glorifies the god-emperor lich. Ditto writing, science, music, all forms of creative thought. It's not even a part of the culture anymore, because nobody has been allowed to do it in centuries unless they are part of the state's propaganda organ. (And even then, they just follow state-assigned formulae to crank out repetitive praises to the god-emperor.) The literacy rate is abysmal, because the state believes reading is dangerous. Joe Citizen does not even think about it, because independent thought is considered unproductive -- the only people paid to think are the necromancers, and they aren't exactly itching to make any changes to how things work.

There is no romance, because the state is too concerned about the state of the gene pool to allow its citizens to just breed all willy-nilly. Once a citizen reaches the age of majority, they are assigned a spouse according to the god-emperor lich's grand eugenics scheme to breed more durable and tractable workers. The only thing you are allowed to "love" is the god-emperor lich, and the citizenry would be legitimately confused by the idea of romantic love.

You are, of course, allowed to leave. After all, if a citizen wants to leave, they clearly have some dangerous ideas and need to be removed from the rest of the population to prevent memetic infection. You are not allowed to ever come back and tell people about what life is like outside the borders. It's possible that anyone who leaves is actually executed on the way out of the kingdom just to make sure. All trade is conducted by a specialized, heavily indoctrinated merchant caste -- they are considered low-risk because of the extent of their brainwashing, and because they are given special privileges to keep them happy. Naturally, they are not allowed to talk to the rest of the populace, except to give carefully prepared statements about how awful the kingdoms outside the reach of the god-emperor lich's love are. Outsiders are, of course, not permitted to interact with the citizenry, or even come into the kingdom unless absolutely necessary.

There is an underground movement trying to keep the ideals of creativity and independent thought alive. They're not strong enough to openly oppose the god-emperor lich, or even covertly undermine his rule. They just keep a few things -- old stories, old paintings, old songs -- preserved. The campaign starts when the players find (or are covertly given) a book of old stories, and the very concept of a story that's not about the god-emperor lich and his perfect wisdom throws their entire worldview into chaos.

EDIT: Basically, the idea behind this strategy is to combine the best traits of living and undead. You need living citizens to keep up your supply of corpses to make your tireless workers, but you get around the unpredictable nature of living humans by culturally programming them to act like mindless undead automatons themselves. The biggest threat to your reign, therefore, is cultural contamination.

Flickerdart
2015-06-16, 05:44 PM
Yeah ok, but you still NEED the living in order to have these corpses, especially for a Immortal being who wants to plan for an immortal empire.

Then again, if he's a poweful of a lich, he can probably find a way to repair those corpses, or have some kind of hellish warren where he grows soulless corpses... That's actually pretty metal!
Clone can make corpses. You can also cast planar binding to snag Native Outsiders that you then murder and raise. If you can get 20th level human monks, their corpses count as regular human corpses and thus you can build flesh golems out of them.

TheOneHawk
2015-06-17, 11:09 AM
You don't need any. Coming up with cunning plans is the players' job.:smallamused:



Alternately, go through the Evil Overlord List and make sure the villain makes none of those mistakes. Again, handing the players a solution? Not your job.

As to how to horrify the players enough to give them incentive to rebel:

Crank the absolute dreariness of the kingdom up a notch. Your average commoner wakes up in their state-assigned house, goes to their state-assigned job, works from dawn to dusk, comes home to their state-assigned spouse, makes a token effort towards producing the next generation of workers, and goes to sleep. The next day they do the same thing all over again. There is nothing else. This is what they have been doing since they were old enough to work (child labor in this setting? totally a thing) and what they will continue doing until they are too old to continue, at which point they will go to their state-assigned necromancy station for immediate execution.

There is no art, because "artist" is not a state-assigned job. The closest thing is the production of propaganda that glorifies the god-emperor lich. Ditto writing, science, music, all forms of creative thought. It's not even a part of the culture anymore, because nobody has been allowed to do it in centuries unless they are part of the state's propaganda organ. (And even then, they just follow state-assigned formulae to crank out repetitive praises to the god-emperor.) The literacy rate is abysmal, because the state believes reading is dangerous. Joe Citizen does not even think about it, because independent thought is considered unproductive -- the only people paid to think are the necromancers, and they aren't exactly itching to make any changes to how things work.

There is no romance, because the state is too concerned about the state of the gene pool to allow its citizens to just breed all willy-nilly. Once a citizen reaches the age of majority, they are assigned a spouse according to the god-emperor lich's grand eugenics scheme to breed more durable and tractable workers. The only thing you are allowed to "love" is the god-emperor lich, and the citizenry would be legitimately confused by the idea of romantic love.

You are, of course, allowed to leave. After all, if a citizen wants to leave, they clearly have some dangerous ideas and need to be removed from the rest of the population to prevent memetic infection. You are not allowed to ever come back and tell people about what life is like outside the borders. It's possible that anyone who leaves is actually executed on the way out of the kingdom just to make sure. All trade is conducted by a specialized, heavily indoctrinated merchant caste -- they are considered low-risk because of the extent of their brainwashing, and because they are given special privileges to keep them happy. Naturally, they are not allowed to talk to the rest of the populace, except to give carefully prepared statements about how awful the kingdoms outside the reach of the god-emperor lich's love are. Outsiders are, of course, not permitted to interact with the citizenry, or even come into the kingdom unless absolutely necessary.

There is an underground movement trying to keep the ideals of creativity and independent thought alive. They're not strong enough to openly oppose the god-emperor lich, or even covertly undermine his rule. They just keep a few things -- old stories, old paintings, old songs -- preserved. The campaign starts when the players find (or are covertly given) a book of old stories, and the very concept of a story that's not about the god-emperor lich and his perfect wisdom throws their entire worldview into chaos.

EDIT: Basically, the idea behind this strategy is to combine the best traits of living and undead. You need living citizens to keep up your supply of corpses to make your tireless workers, but you get around the unpredictable nature of living humans by culturally programming them to act like mindless undead automatons themselves. The biggest threat to your reign, therefore, is cultural contamination.

This is very close to the image I had in my head, only WAY more eloquently written. Plus some awesome ideas on top of it. Love it, thank you.

Hawkstar
2015-06-17, 01:21 PM
And more importantly, corpses are poor company. Lawful Evil characters love the power, love ambition, and are still social creatures. The LE Tyrant loves to have courtesans fawning over him, enemies fearing him, allies praising him, servants obeying him. The way I see it, the "Lawful" alignment implies some sort of social need that is probably note fulfilled with zombies.
Not to a Lich. None of this matters to a lich, who himself is no longer alive. There are many reasons Undead are seen as 'insane'. This is one of them.

Once they lose their living mind, they are forever changed, and locked into their mindset. Liches are NOT dynamic thinkers with ever-evolving goals, ambitions, and desires. It's like their motivation gets jammed on the point of death (Something the "Undeath for Dummies" books always fail to mention, because nobody's really aware of it - People studying it from an outside perspective can't see what happens. Those who go through the process are mentally incapable of recognizing what happened. They are NOT self-aware to that extent)

Flickerdart
2015-06-17, 03:12 PM
Not to a Lich. None of this matters to a lich, who himself is no longer alive. There are many reasons Undead are seen as 'insane'. This is one of them.

Once they lose their living mind, they are forever changed, and locked into their mindset. Liches are NOT dynamic thinkers with ever-evolving goals, ambitions, and desires. It's like their motivation gets jammed on the point of death (Something the "Undeath for Dummies" books always fail to mention, because nobody's really aware of it - People studying it from an outside perspective can't see what happens. Those who go through the process are mentally incapable of recognizing what happened. They are NOT self-aware to that extent)
Sounds neat. Is this written somewhere?