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Kami2awa
2015-05-31, 09:39 AM
Reading this thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?418221-De-Tolkienizing-D-amp-D

...made me think how you would make the D&D world more Tolkien-like, rather than less.

This is not intended to be a rebuttal to that thread - it would be equally fun to have a D&D setting that has as few Tolkien influences as possible.

Anyway...

... the power level is lower. 20th-level characters would be the domain of the Valar or most powerful Maiar, who go around doing things like making the stars and uprooting whole islands.
... far fewer primary casters, possibly none as PCs. Magic is less obvious, most of the time.
... a lot of monsters from other settings go. Most aberrations aren't particularly Tolkien-esque, being more sci-fi or Lovecraftian. Trolls don't regenerate - the things called trolls in Middle-Earth are more like D&D ogres. They and most other evil creatures have an aversion (or even vulnerability) to sunlight. Creatures inspired by classical (Greek/Roman) myth like griffons or centaurs, or non-Northern-European myth in general, aren't around either. Good-aligned dragons, for example, are unheard of.
... elves are taller. Otherwise they are roughly the same, other= than being unaging and never dying of disease or old age (OK, that's a really big difference). They don't mix with humans or other species much unless they really have to.
... half-elves are... complicated. They have to choose between being fully human or fully elven, so half-elves as D&D portrays them are unlikely.
... powerful magic items are really rare, but minor magic items are even more common (elves seem to have magic rope, magic cloaks, magic swords, and magic bread as pretty much standard issue equipment). Even minor magic items (especially weapons) have histories and reputations behind them. Magic items also have more interesting powers than a bonus to hit, such as the power to harm otherwise invulnerable undead creatures or to light up in the presence of enemies.
... everywhere you go you trip over the history of the world, which is organised in Ages. The First Age was inherently more fairy-tale or mythological than the current one, and magic grows less powerful with each Age. There were Golden Ages in the past and people now live amongst the constructions or indeed ruins from those times.
... prophesy happens, and the prophesies come true, but not quite as you'd expect. Destinies, oaths and bloodlines are vitally important and may be associated with real, tangible powers.
... dwarves... are exactly the same. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurDwarvesAreAllTheSame
... some animals come in both normal and intelligent, talking varieties, often giant-sized in the latter case. The Great Eagles and the Wargs are the most prominent examples.
... vampires and werewolves exist, but how they work is not clear (Tolkien's werewolves are spirits bound in wolf form, and don't seem able to shapeshift.)
... dragons come in red, red, and red, except for Ancalagon the Black (who is fire-breathing anyway).
... by the Age the game is set in, the Gods are broadly non-interventionist.
... the afterlife is, especially for humans and dwarves, is a bit of a mystery. Elves get to reincarnate and remember it, but only their own part. You can't generally resurrect the dead, and nor can you shift to other planes (though elven ships can sail to Valinor).

I'm aware Tolkien wrote a lot of stuff in his life, and some of it probably contradicts this... and more of it will contradict the contradictions. But overall, D&D has diverged quite a lot from Tolkien even from its very beginning, and it takes a lot of changes to revert it back.

Maglubiyet
2015-05-31, 11:27 AM
...goblins are just degenerate Orcs, who themselves were created by corrupting and torturing elves
...race mixing among the "Good" races is unusual - there is much fear, distrust, animosity, and prejudice between Men, Elves, and Dwarves
...demons are not extra-planar beings, but ancient evils from another Age, lurking in the dark corners of the world (sort of sounds Lovecraftian)
...Perform (Oratory and Sing) is a class skill for all classes
...Herbology/Herbal Medicine is a skill
...religion is unknown largely hidden in the background -- certainly no Divine casters (except maybe Druids?)

Eisenheim
2015-05-31, 11:35 AM
The question, to my mind, is what part of tolkien you want to emulate. One of the trickiest things about emulating the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings in D&D, and to a lesser extent in any RPG, is that those narratives have huge gulfs in character power baked in as one of the main themes: Merry and Pippin and Sam and Frodo are exceptional and heroic hobbits, but they are simply less able to handle a large number of challenges than other members of the fellowship. I would probably try to do a game aiming to mimic those novels with FATE, which does character asymmetry somewhat better.

If I was going for Tolkien in D&D, I would set it in the second age, when the heroes of the Noldor and Edain fought against Morgoth. This is the time in Middle Earth's history that much of the Silmarillion is about, and it has space for incredibly powerful heroes fighting incredibly powerful monsters. You could very easily run a 2nd age game from 10th to 20th level. Magic would need a look, but I think it could be worked out.

Talakeal
2015-05-31, 11:42 AM
The question, to my mind, is what part of tolkien you want to emulate. One of the trickiest things about emulating the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings in D&D, and to a lesser extent in any RPG, is that those narratives have huge gulfs in character power baked in as one of the main themes: Merry and Pippin and Sam and Frodo are exceptional and heroic hobbits, but they are simply less able to handle a large number of challenges than other members of the fellowship. I would probably try to do a game aiming to mimic those novels with FATE, which does character asymmetry somewhat better.

If I was going for Tolkien in D&D, I would set it in the second age, when the heroes of the Noldor and Edain fought against Morgoth. This is the time in Middle Earth's history that much of the Silmarillion is about, and it has space for incredibly powerful heroes fighting incredibly powerful monsters. You could very easily run a 2nd age game from 10th to 20th level. Magic would need a look, but I think it could be worked out.

I dont mean to give you a hard time, but Morgoth was defeated at the end of the first age, the villain in the second age was Sauron. I assume you meant first age?

Eisenheim
2015-05-31, 11:59 AM
You're right. I always think there's an age boundary between the creation of the world, and then all the silmarillion stuff with the elves, but it's not an official 'age'

Eisenheim
2015-05-31, 12:01 PM
the time I am thinking of is basically that between the rising of the sun and the war of wrath. I think that's the best part of Middle Earth's continuity for larger-than-life D&D heroes. It's also the best time for equality between the races, since the heroes of the Edain really play on a level equal to the prince's of the Noldor in many cases, which really isn't the case for men, even Numenorians, and elves in the War of the Ring.

Keltest
2015-05-31, 12:04 PM
I think its important to note that the minor elven magic items like the rope Sam uses aren't considered "enchanted" by the elves so much as very well crafted. The elves get the maximum potential out of the stuff they make, though there is certainly an element of magic in some of their stuff, certainly.

The cloaks that the fellowship get in Lorien for example aren't magically camouflaging them, theyre just woven and dyed so well that looking at them tricks the eye all on their own.

nooblade
2015-05-31, 12:42 PM
Here's a timeline:

http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Ages_of_Arda

So, the first age ends with Morgoth in the War of Wrath, the second age ends with Isildur fighting Sauron, the third age ends with the War of the Ring.


I don't think there's any Tolkien "cleric" powers which leads to issues with healing I suppose. Certainly the things that mattered most as far as magic went were the magic items.

Turin's story focused more on fighting, but even then it was mostly leadership and tactics IIRC. Perhaps players could be tempted into foolishness like Turin building a bridge to Nargothrond?

NPCs could take brash action too, like Feanor's sacred oath with vengeance and hatred at the start of the Silmarillion.

And when people die, they go to the Halls of Mandos. Elves could leave, but I doubt they could find some way back to Middle Earth after death.


Might as well make up some different setting. Then you won't get sued by Tolkien estate! Haha.

Kami2awa
2015-05-31, 12:44 PM
I think its important to note that the minor elven magic items like the rope Sam uses aren't considered "enchanted" by the elves so much as very well crafted. The elves get the maximum potential out of the stuff they make, though there is certainly an element of magic in some of their stuff, certainly.

The cloaks that the fellowship get in Lorien for example aren't magically camouflaging them, theyre just woven and dyed so well that looking at them tricks the eye all on their own.

However, one bite of lembas bread can sustain a grown man for a day (or a hobbit for maybe half an hour :) ) and elven rope only unties when you want it to, and burns evil creatures tied up with it (which is a scary idea, really). There's clearly something a little odd going on there.

Kami2awa
2015-05-31, 12:48 PM
I don't think there's any Tolkien "cleric" powers which leads to issues with healing I suppose. Certainly the things that mattered most as far as magic went were the magic items.



There is the Cordial of Miravor, which is more a supernatural pick-me-up than healing potion, but could probably function as one mechanics-wise. Elrond is also a master of healing, which like most elvish powers is probably somewhere between normal medicine and magic.

Jay R
2015-05-31, 12:54 PM
I wouldn't set my world in Middle-Earth, because the history is available to all players, but an important aspect of the stories is that only the Wise are likely to know about ancient history that would affect the world today.

For instance, the PCs shouldn't know the history of Silmarils, Rings, etc.


I think its important to note that the minor elven magic items like the rope Sam uses aren't considered "enchanted" by the elves so much as very well crafted. The elves get the maximum potential out of the stuff they make, though there is certainly an element of magic in some of their stuff, certainly.

The cloaks that the fellowship get in Lorien for example aren't magically camouflaging them, theyre just woven and dyed so well that looking at them tricks the eye all on their own.

Correct. I would have masterwork items from the elves function as what we think of as low-level magic items, and masterwork mithril from the dwarves would be low-level magic armor. only magic armor.]


...demons are not extra-planar beings, but ancient evils from another Age, lurking in the dark corners of the world (sort of sounds Lovecraftian)

Actually, they would be the same race as the wizards, but corrupted into their current forms, as orcs are corrupted from the elves, and trolls are corrupted from the ents.

Keltest
2015-05-31, 12:59 PM
However, one bite of lembas bread can sustain a grown man for a day (or a hobbit for maybe half an hour :) ) and elven rope only unties when you want it to, and burns evil creatures tied up with it (which is a scary idea, really). There's clearly something a little odd going on there.

Entirely true. What was considered "magic" in the Tolkien universe was... ill defined, at best. Wizards like Gandalf did magic, for sure, but elves like Elrond, by my understanding, just had such a good knowledge of the universe that they could ask it to break the rules when they had to, and the universe listened.

Jay R
2015-05-31, 01:48 PM
However, ... elven rope only unties when you want it to, and burns evil creatures tied up with it (which is a scary idea, really).

Evil creatures? We don't know that. It burned a single corrupted creature who had too much Ring influence in him, and who could no longer stand sunlight.

One possible explanation is that the elves worked the essence of sunlight into their rope. There are other explanations that could be invented. We only know that it burned Gollum. In any events, orcs could hold the elven cloak, since they took it from Frodo.

Ninjadeadbeard
2015-05-31, 02:32 PM
Evil creatures? We don't know that. It burned a single corrupted creature who had too much Ring influence in him, and who could no longer stand sunlight.

One possible explanation is that the elves worked the essence of sunlight into their rope. There are other explanations that could be invented. We only know that it burned Gollum. In any events, orcs could hold the elven cloak, since they took it from Frodo.

No, the stuff crafted by the elves was so high quality that it became magic through its sheer enhancement bonus, essentially. Anything crafted by the Elves was also fair, which harmed all evil creatures who beheld them. It's more or less canon.

Eisenheim
2015-05-31, 03:09 PM
I would certainly think that in D&D, all the named weapons of the Tolkien universe would be modeled as magic items, and quite possibly some other things as well, the blades from the barrow, while not named, were, IIRC, called out as being enchanted with spells, which was why Merry stabbing the Lich King was so effective.
It all comes down to how magic manifests in that universe, which is much more in terms of objects of power and mental might than blasts of fire and lightning.

Takewo
2015-05-31, 03:59 PM
Entirely true. What was considered "magic" in the Tolkien universe was... ill defined, at best. Wizards like Gandalf did magic, for sure, but elves like Elrond, by my understanding, just had such a good knowledge of the universe that they could ask it to break the rules when they had to, and the universe listened.

I think it's rather differently understood by the different peoples from the Middle Earth. When the Company is in Lórien, they are told that what they call "magic" is natural for the elves, or something like that, can't remember properly. But there is a sense through all the books that magic is part of the elven life, they relate to it naturally, whereas the other races do not.

In fact, now that I put it in that way, it makes me think of the wizard-sorcerer dichotomy.

Eisenheim
2015-05-31, 04:28 PM
All of these concerns are really why the latter part of the first age is ideal for Tolkien in D&D: there's much more clear and overt magic, as well as mighty heroes shaping the destiny of the realm, without needing a whole army to do it much of the time.

Incanur
2015-05-31, 06:31 PM
Great heroes from the First Age do indeed resemble higher-level 3.x D&D characters in certain respects. Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth would be tough to model below 15th level at the least, especially with Morgoth's hammer creating craters where it fell. Folks like Fingolfin and Turin could rout entire armies, at least when angered.

A big problem with 3.x D&D for modeling anything like Tolkien's world is quick combat tends to be. It varies, but important characters in Arda tend to battle it out at some length. Gandalf and the Balrog fought for ten days. Ten days! Do you know many rounds that is? In 3.x D&D, even a few minutes makes for a long combat.

YossarianLives
2015-05-31, 07:29 PM
Great heroes from the First Age do indeed resemble higher-level 3.x D&D characters in certain respects. Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth would be tough to model below 15th level at the least, especially with Morgoth's hammer creating craters where it fell. Folks like Fingolfin and Turin could rout entire armies, at least when angered.

A big problem with 3.x D&D for modeling anything like Tolkien's world is quick combat tends to be. It varies, but important characters in Arda tend to battle it out at some length. Gandalf and the Balrog fought for ten days. Ten days! Do you know many rounds that is? In 3.x D&D, even a few minutes makes for a long combat.
144000 rounds to be precise.

Keltest
2015-05-31, 08:39 PM
144000 rounds to be precise.

That's what Gandalf gets for using a sword as a wizard.

goto124
2015-06-01, 09:19 AM
I think that's long for any tabletop game. Doing this on a computer isn't much better 0-0

Jay R
2015-06-01, 10:32 AM
Gandalf and the Balrog fought for ten days. Ten days! Do you know many rounds that is? In 3.x D&D, even a few minutes makes for a long combat.

An offstage battle between NPCs. This is flavor, not mechanics.

Takewo
2015-06-01, 12:59 PM
Yup, the siege of Minas Tirith took about three days, and the Helm's Deep was a bit longer than a night.

Telonius
2015-06-01, 02:13 PM
To Tolkienize D&D, you would need to completely rework the magic system. Make Truenamers and Bards the most powerful casters. All of Arda was created from song; that has to be reflected in the mechanics.

Remove almost all healing magic from the game, except possibly for Elves and Elf-descended races. "Cleric" is probably not a thing.

If you're going Third Age, the setting is ultra-low-"magic," at least as most modern gamers understand the term. An enchanted blade is something they used to know how to make a thousand years or more in the past. If it's First or Second Age, you have more leeway for magic items, but they're still pretty darn rare.

Accept that races just aren't equally powered. Elves are incredibly powerful, don't age, and have a bunch of inherent stuff that other races just don't. Bloodlines matter. A lot.

There are some monsters that just can't be defeated combat by anything short of a genuine, capital-H Hero complete with royal lineage. If you do not have (at minimum) Elvish blood, you are not going to survive an encounter with a Balrog unless it wants you to.

Mando Knight
2015-06-01, 03:51 PM
... half-elves are... complicated. They have to choose between being fully human or fully elven, so half-elves as D&D portrays them are unlikely.

Existing D&D Half-Elves are basically closer to Aragorn than they are to Elrond Half-Elven... Men blessed with a part of the eternal grace and wisdom of the Elves, with long lives but still mortal.

Kalmageddon
2015-06-01, 04:58 PM
I would disagree that D&D Elves and Tolkien's Elves have anything in common beside generic appearence.
Elves in Tolkien's mythos are almost always better than humans. Stronger, more charsimatic, wiser... This is less true if we talk about the "dark elves", but in general elves should be more powerful.

Half elves don't exist in the D&D sense, as far as I know. Meaning, the very few cases of elves and humans mating have produced offspring that had to "choose" their nature and become either humans or elves. There is nothing in between.

TheCountAlucard
2015-06-01, 05:11 PM
Re: Elves being measurably better than humans: Depends on if you can Chaos Shuffle all those useless racial proficiency feats or not. Having three feats above and beyond a similarly-built human is pretty darn valuable. :smallamused:

Dienekes
2015-06-01, 07:00 PM
Let's see, I don't think you covered hit points.

Generally they shouldn't advance beyond your starting hp. Even Smaug, the dragon and most fearsome creature in the mythos until you get to Sauron and maybe the Balrog was killed with 1 arrow that ignored it's armor (admittedly it was a deadly black arrow, but it's unclear what that means, could be it was a 1 hit kill arrow, could be it was just enchanted to be more accurate). I believe Legolas also kills on of the fell beasts with 1 arrow as well.

The most impressive feat of hit points in the series is Boromir's death by many arrows, which can be modeled through armor as DR and unlucky rolls on the part of the orcs.

Elves, dwarves, and humans would work differently as well, mostly because Tolkien doesn't run on attributes. The elves for instance are greater than man. How is vague. I don't remember them displaying significantly more strength than man, or being noticeably faster. Boromir and Aragorn manage to keep up with Legolas pretty well throughout LotR, and the Numenoreans (admittedly they are greater than the average man as well) were considered to be more powerful than the elves for awhile. But the elves were still considered greater, more graceful, more powerful in general. Their works of art were greater, their weapons were greater, and, especially in the Silmarillion, their mistakes, idiocies, and arrogance blew anything the humans did completely out of the water. I don't know how to model that, other than just giving the elves more levels than humans get, but not in combat classes (unless they're names are Ecthelion of the Fountain, or Glorfindel). Dwarves are strange as well, as they are specifically stated to not be wise, dismissing elves and generally being bigoted against them (which admittedly the elves are right back at them, but I don't think Tolkien ever calls them out on this) but they were the ones who were actually resistant to the rings of power, which is generally seen as a facet of Wisdom.

If I was to model them it would be:
Elves: +2 Dex, +2 Cha
Type of elf: At level 1 choose Sindar or Noldor, Sindar elves gain +2 Int and +2 Wis, Noldor elves get proficiency with longbows or something. I may have these two reversed though, I always get the elven races wrong.
Start with 2 or 3 levels of an NPC class
Elven Eyes: Darkvision, +5 racial bonus to Search and Spot checks

Dwarves: +2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha
Dwarven Mental Resistance: +5 racial bonus to Will Saves against magic
Darkvision
Start with 1 level of an NPC class
+2 racial bonus to appraise checks
+2 racial bonus to Craft (jewelry), Craft (Metallurgy), Craft (Stonework)

CantigThimble
2015-06-01, 07:10 PM
Let's see, I don't think you covered hit points.

Generally they shouldn't advance beyond your starting hp. Even Smaug, the dragon and most fearsome creature in the mythos until you get to Sauron and maybe the Balrog was killed with 1 arrow that ignored it's armor (admittedly it was a deadly black arrow, but it's unclear what that means, could be it was a 1 hit kill arrow, could be it was just enchanted to be more accurate). I believe Legolas also kills on of the fell beasts with 1 arrow as well.

The most impressive feat of hit points in the series is Boromir's death by many arrows, which can be modeled through armor as DR and unlucky rolls on the part of the orcs.

Well, that's not Tolkien, that's all books/movies/shows. If you want HP to work like it does in media then you need a completely different system, or just say that HP also represents near misses and your strength being depleted.

LibraryOgre
2015-06-01, 07:19 PM
Accept that races just aren't equally powered. Elves are incredibly powerful, don't age, and have a bunch of inherent stuff that other races just don't. Bloodlines matter. A lot.


FWIW, the old ICE MERP game included "backgrounds"; humans got several, which could manifest as extra skill ranks, special abilties, affinities will certain creatures, even magical equipment (one example was a shield that would always float), while elves, more (or less, I can't recall) tied to Destiny got only a few.

Incanur
2015-06-01, 08:02 PM
Generally they shouldn't advance beyond your starting hp. Even Smaug, the dragon and most fearsome creature in the mythos until you get to Sauron and maybe the Balrog was killed with 1 arrow that ignored it's armor (admittedly it was a deadly black arrow, but it's unclear what that means, could be it was a 1 hit kill arrow, could be it was just enchanted to be more accurate). I believe Legolas also kills on of the fell beasts with 1 arrow as well.

The most impressive feat of hit points in the series is Boromir's death by many arrows, which can be modeled through armor as DR and unlucky rolls on the part of the orcs.

If you're going to stick to the 3.x hit-point system, it makes more sense to think of Boromir, Bard, Legolas, and so on as powerful mid-level characters who could pack tons of damage into a single attack. There's no evidence that Boromir was wearing armor beyond a helm during his final fight. Gimli was the only member of the Fellowship who openly wore mail. And note that Boromir initially routed dozens of orcs and only perished in an extended fight with at least a hundred, many of whom were armed with bows. He also apparently clove opposing helms and shields in the final fight, indicating impressive strength and/or a special blade.

You'd need to change to vital-location system to better match Tolkien's writings. Hit points are silly anyway.

Keltest
2015-06-02, 04:28 AM
I would disagree that D&D Elves and Tolkien's Elves have anything in common beside generic appearence.
Elves in Tolkien's mythos are almost always better than humans. Stronger, more charsimatic, wiser... This is less true if we talk about the "dark elves", but in general elves should be more powerful.

Half elves don't exist in the D&D sense, as far as I know. Meaning, the very few cases of elves and humans mating have produced offspring that had to "choose" their nature and become either humans or elves. There is nothing in between.

My understanding is that Half-Elves who chose the world of Men still got a pretty darn nice benefits package, including relative longevity and power. That's what the Numenorians were after all, or at least the line of Kings. If I remember correctly, Aragorn is in fact descended from Elrond's brother, who chose to be Man, which makes his marriage to Arwen a little bit awkward in that respect.

Kalmageddon
2015-06-02, 07:07 AM
Oh, another thing about elves... Apparently, Tolkien clarified that they can all use telepathy.

Eisenheim
2015-06-02, 09:05 AM
Aragorn is in fact descended from Elrond's brother, who chose to be Man, which makes his marriage to Arwen a little bit awkward in that respect.

Not really. There have been so many generations in between them that, genetically speaking, it's not much of a thing. I mean technically they're first cousins, but first cousins like, 60 times removed.

Talakeal
2015-06-02, 10:56 AM
My understanding is that Half-Elves who chose the world of Men still got a pretty darn nice benefits package, including relative longevity and power. That's what the Numenorians were after all, or at least the line of Kings. If I remember correctly, Aragorn is in fact descended from Elrond's brother, who chose to be Man, which makes his marriage to Arwen a little bit awkward in that respect.


Not only that, but Aragorn himself is the product of a marriage between cousins as he is the heir to both the royal lines of Gondor and Arnor, both of which spran from Elendil 2000 years before.

Reuniting fractured bloodlines is a big part of Tolkien myth and many of the important people in the story engage in or are the product of such a union.

Nith
2015-06-02, 01:21 PM
Not only that, but Aragorn himself is the product of a marriage between cousins as he is the heir to both the royal lines of Gondor and Arnor, both of which spran from Elendil 2000 years before.

Reuniting fractured bloodlines is a big part of Tolkien myth and many of the important people in the story engage in or are the product of such a union.

Isn't he the heir to Gondor because the Gondorian line descending from Isildur's brother has died out, leaving Isildur's descendants as heirs.

Anyway, I think the time period best suited for D&D adventures in Arda might be the second age. First age is a bit too plotted out already, leaving too few holes to be filled by players. A good starting point could be a Númenorean colony in Middle-Earth some time before Sauron is chased out and escapes to Númenor.

Eisenheim
2015-06-02, 01:32 PM
I say first age for D&D, largely because the power levels map better.

For any RP in Middle Earth, I would pick the third age, after the defeat of Sauron by the Last Alliance. Set your game in the fracturing kingdoms of arnor and their wars with the Witch King.

jedipilot24
2015-06-02, 01:45 PM
If I was to model them it would be:

Dwarves: +2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha
Dwarven Mental Resistance: +5 racial bonus to Will Saves against magic
Darkvision
Start with 1 level of an NPC class
+2 racial bonus to appraise checks
+2 racial bonus to Craft (jewelry), Craft (Metallurgy), Craft (Stonework)

To really re-Tolkeinize D&D, first rename "Elven Chain" to "Dwarven Chain" because in Tolkein the Dwarves are the ones who mine and forge mithral; they are described as great miners and craftsmen in addition to being skilled warriors, so the Tolkein Dwarves should have +2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Dex for ability modifiers.

Keltest
2015-06-02, 02:02 PM
Isn't he the heir to Gondor because the Gondorian line descending from Isildur's brother has died out, leaving Isildur's descendants as heirs.

Anyway, I think the time period best suited for D&D adventures in Arda might be the second age. First age is a bit too plotted out already, leaving too few holes to be filled by players. A good starting point could be a Númenorean colony in Middle-Earth some time before Sauron is chased out and escapes to Númenor.

That's my understanding, yes.


To really re-Tolkeinize D&D, first rename "Elven Chain" to "Dwarven Chain" because in Tolkein the Dwarves are the ones who mine and forge mithral; they are described as great miners and craftsmen in addition to being skilled warriors, so the Tolkein Dwarves should have +2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Dex for ability modifiers.

I believe that elven weapons and armor were historically better made than dwarven equipment because they were "magical", whereas the dwarven stuff just had the properties of the metal being expertly forged. So while an elf couldn't make a steel sword better than a mithral sword, they could make a mithral sword better than a dwarven mithral sword, though it would probably take longer and consume more materials.

Talakeal
2015-06-02, 02:06 PM
Isn't he the heir to Gondor because the Gondorian line descending from Isildur's brother has died out, leaving Isildur's descendants as heirs.
.

Aragorn's great x 14 grandmother was Firiel, who was the daughter of one of the last kings of Gondor before the line disappeared.

Nith
2015-06-02, 02:55 PM
Aragorn's great x 14 grandmother was Firiel, who was the daughter of one of the last kings of Gondor before the line disappeared.

Wow, I didn't know that and my Tolkien phase was both long and deep. It's still a considerably lesser case of inbreeding than used to be common in European royalty.

Dienekes
2015-06-02, 03:14 PM
To really re-Tolkeinize D&D, first rename "Elven Chain" to "Dwarven Chain" because in Tolkein the Dwarves are the ones who mine and forge mithral; they are described as great miners and craftsmen in addition to being skilled warriors, so the Tolkein Dwarves should have +2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Dex for ability modifiers.

I know mithral is dwarven, but I don't remember them ever being noted as being especially intelligent.

Indeed, they seem to think it was a good idea to go on an adventure against a dragon and the many dangers of the wild without any weapons or armor. They're kind of idiots, really, Gimli's better though. He has that whole warrior poet thing going on.

There's also nothing mentioning them as being particularly undextrous. On the contrary I'd argue the opposite. Their ability to create fine works of jewelry would imply being fairly dextrous fingers (though that is not modelled in D&D at all). On the same token, their actions during the whole "chip the glasses, crack the plates" scene in the books has them balancing columns of plates and wine bottles in one hand without breaking anything. The implication when compared to Bilbo's frightened reactions would seem to imply that the dwarves naturally are more dextrous and have better balance than your typical hobbit.


I believe that elven weapons and armor were historically better made than dwarven equipment because they were "magical", whereas the dwarven stuff just had the properties of the metal being expertly forged. So while an elf couldn't make a steel sword better than a mithral sword, they could make a mithral sword better than a dwarven mithral sword, though it would probably take longer and consume more materials.

Tolkien is remarkably vague about this. At various times in the Silmarillion both elves and dwarven weapons were called out as the best, with elven kings brandishing dwarven weapons and armor at times and of course the dwarves of the Hobbit getting elven weapons that were considered as fine a weapon as they could ask for.

Armor, though, mithril is pretty much called out as dwarven only and better than anything anyone else was making.

It is possible that elves were the best craftsman during the 1st age, with Feanor and Celebrimbor as the best. However, they're gone now, and dwarven smiths have remained a step behind the elves at their height which is about as good as anyone else is going to do in the later ages.

Eisenheim
2015-06-02, 05:21 PM
I know mithral is dwarven, but I don't remember them ever being noted as being especially intelligent.

Tolkien is remarkably vague about this. At various times in the Silmarillion both elves and dwarven weapons were called out as the best, with elven kings brandishing dwarven weapons and armor at times and of course the dwarves of the Hobbit getting elven weapons that were considered as fine a weapon as they could ask for.


Mostly the Noldor, who are high elves, having gone to Valinor and then returned, make their own gear, and it is probably the best there is, certainly when their best smiths make it. It is the grey elves of Thingol's kingdom who get their best manufacture from the dwarves. Which all makes consistent sense. The high elves are just better at everything, because they learned and grew in the blessed realm, but dwarves, creations of Aule, are better at smithing than elves who never learned from Aule in the blessed realm.

VoxRationis
2015-06-02, 07:03 PM
I believe Legolas also kills on of the fell beasts with 1 arrow as well.



When I read the books, I got the impression that the fell beasts were kind of over-hyped. Sure, they had some sort of fear effect going on, but anyone who looked past that for a moment could bring them down easily enough. As you mentioned, Legolas killed one with but a single arrow (and this is books Legolas, remember, who is less cartoonishly badass than movies Legolas), and once one landed, Eowyn just lops its head off with no problem.

I guess they just had 1 Hit Die.

Keltest
2015-06-02, 07:06 PM
When I read the books, I got the impression that the fell beasts were kind of over-hyped. Sure, they had some sort of fear effect going on, but anyone who looked past that for a moment could bring them down easily enough. As you mentioned, Legolas killed one with but a single arrow (and this is books Legolas, remember, who is less cartoonishly badass than movies Legolas), and once one landed, Eowyn just lops its head off with no problem.

I guess they just had 1 Hit Die.

Unlike dragons, they weren't especially well equipped to act as battle mounts. They didn't have armor or any sort of ranged weapon. They were bred to be fast, not fighters. The Nazgul didn't need a mount to kill people, they did that plenty well on their own, and THATS what made the beasts so scary.

Incanur
2015-06-05, 03:01 PM
In Tolkienverse, killing something a single arrow or sword thrust doesn't that creature is weak. As mentioned earlier, even dragons can perish from a single arrow or thrust. This simply makes sense physiologically. Tolkien didn't think in terms of hit points.

VoxRationis
2015-06-05, 03:13 PM
Except that even outside of gamist thinking about hit points and such, one would expect a single arrow have limited value against a target that size. That's a big creature for a tiny arrow to do lethal damage to.

Incanur
2015-06-05, 03:33 PM
Various hunters have killed elephants with a single arrow. The key is hitting something important. The bleeding out can take a while, as it did with Gurthang.

Dienekes
2015-06-05, 06:17 PM
Except that even outside of gamist thinking about hit points and such, one would expect a single arrow have limited value against a target that size. That's a big creature for a tiny arrow to do lethal damage to.

Nick artery, heart, or brain. Bugger's gonna die, doesn't matter how big, you can kill a bear with a 1 inch knife if you know where to stick it, and a single arrow will penetrate much deeper than that.

VoxRationis
2015-06-05, 06:22 PM
That's a very lucky shot, even for Legolas. And mind you that in the books he's less ridiculous than he is in the movies.

Dienekes
2015-06-05, 07:56 PM
That's a very lucky shot, even for Legolas. And mind you that in the books he's less ridiculous than he is in the movies.

Less ridiculous, but every non-hobbit character in the Fellowship still performed super human stunts with frequency. Mostly they just involve being super accurate or with impossible reflex or luck than any display of overwhelming strength.

Keltest
2015-06-05, 08:01 PM
Less ridiculous, but every non-hobbit character in the Fellowship still performed super human stunts with frequency. Mostly they just involve being super accurate or with impossible reflex or luck than any display of overwhelming strength.

Everybody except Boromir is specifically non-human or an ubermensch, so...

Wardog
2015-06-07, 05:58 PM
Reading this thread:
... elves are taller. Otherwise they are roughly the same, other= than being unaging and never dying of disease or old age (OK, that's a really big difference). They don't mix with humans or other species much unless they really have to.

I'd say Elves should get +2 (at least) to all attributes except strength. Yes, that includes Con. Tolkien elves are explicitly tougher, more disease-resistant, and have more stamina than humans.





I believe that elven weapons and armor were historically better made than dwarven equipment because they were "magical", whereas the dwarven stuff just had the properties of the metal being expertly forged.

"The Dwarves of yore made mighty spells".

Actually, that reminds me of another thing you'd need to do to Tolkienize D&D: Elves, Dwarves, Men, etc all have capital letters, as do numerous other Important Concepts. (And "Man/Men" is a race, rather than the term for males of all races).

Kami2awa
2015-06-08, 06:51 AM
Nick artery, heart, or brain. Bugger's gonna die, doesn't matter how big, you can kill a bear with a 1 inch knife if you know where to stick it, and a single arrow will penetrate much deeper than that.

Also, a dragon's insides must be like a chemical factory in order to breathe fire. Making a hole in a random pipe in a chemical factory is not going to end well :D

Socratov
2015-06-08, 09:09 AM
Let's see, I don't think you covered hit points.

Generally they shouldn't advance beyond your starting hp. Even Smaug, the dragon and most fearsome creature in the mythos until you get to Sauron and maybe the Balrog was killed with 1 arrow that ignored it's armor (admittedly it was a deadly black arrow, but it's unclear what that means, could be it was a 1 hit kill arrow, could be it was just enchanted to be more accurate). I believe Legolas also kills on of the fell beasts with 1 arrow as well.

The most impressive feat of hit points in the series is Boromir's death by many arrows, which can be modeled through armor as DR and unlucky rolls on the part of the orcs.

Elves, dwarves, and humans would work differently as well, mostly because Tolkien doesn't run on attributes. The elves for instance are greater than man. How is vague. I don't remember them displaying significantly more strength than man, or being noticeably faster. Boromir and Aragorn manage to keep up with Legolas pretty well throughout LotR, and the Numenoreans (admittedly they are greater than the average man as well) were considered to be more powerful than the elves for awhile. But the elves were still considered greater, more graceful, more powerful in general. Their works of art were greater, their weapons were greater, and, especially in the Silmarillion, their mistakes, idiocies, and arrogance blew anything the humans did completely out of the water. I don't know how to model that, other than just giving the elves more levels than humans get, but not in combat classes (unless they're names are Ecthelion of the Fountain, or Glorfindel). Dwarves are strange as well, as they are specifically stated to not be wise, dismissing elves and generally being bigoted against them (which admittedly the elves are right back at them, but I don't think Tolkien ever calls them out on this) but they were the ones who were actually resistant to the rings of power, which is generally seen as a facet of Wisdom.

If I was to model them it would be:
Elves: +2 Dex, +2 Cha
Type of elf: At level 1 choose Sindar or Noldor, Sindar elves gain +2 Int and +2 Wis, Noldor elves get proficiency with longbows or something. I may have these two reversed though, I always get the elven races wrong.
Start with 2 or 3 levels of an NPC class
Elven Eyes: Darkvision, +5 racial bonus to Search and Spot checks

Dwarves: +2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha
Dwarven Mental Resistance: +5 racial bonus to Will Saves against magic
Darkvision
Start with 1 level of an NPC class
+2 racial bonus to appraise checks
+2 racial bonus to Craft (jewelry), Craft (Metallurgy), Craft (Stonework)
Well, on HP, Smaug was killed by an arrow that was specifically crafted by Dwarves to be dragon slaying, so a dragonbane enchentment would be expected. Boromir just had delay death active, like the Knight base class, allowing him to die (effectively in the first round when he is hit), aand then delay his death to redeem himself and kick ass (he finished chewing bubblegum a long time ago). AS for the Elves and Dwarves, I'd give them more HD onm account of being simply older as a long lived species (yes, dwarves too) to add to ECL, part of which they get to add to casterlevel when creating stuff...

To Tolkienize D&D, you would need to completely rework the magic system. Make Truenamers and Bards the most powerful casters. All of Arda was created from song; that has to be reflected in the mechanics.
I fully support this statement. Heck, I woudl be glad if truenamers weren't broken beyond repair and I think that the complete magic system needs to be reworked here truenaming is the system of magic and the laws of bull**** the DnD truenamer needs to deal with didn't exist. I'd think a complete overhaul would be best

Remove almost all healing magic from the game, except possibly for Elves and Elf-descended races. "Cleric" is probably not a thing.
remove vancian casting alltogether and introduce a working sort of truenaming and expand on the heal skill (like, a whole freaking lot)

If you're going Third Age, the setting is ultra-low-"magic," at least as most modern gamers understand the term. An enchanted blade is something they used to know how to make a thousand years or more in the past. If it's First or Second Age, you have more leeway for magic items, but they're still pretty darn rare.
I'd think E6 would do nicely..., E12 for the second age and all the way for the first

Accept that races just aren't equally powered. Elves are incredibly powerful, don't age, and have a bunch of inherent stuff that other races just don't. Bloodlines matter. A lot.
advanced HD really work their magic here...

There are some monsters that just can't be defeated combat by anything short of a genuine, capital-H Hero complete with royal lineage. If you do not have (at minimum) Elvish blood, you are not going to survive an encounter with a Balrog unless it wants you to.


As I understand it, I think even a royal elf without ring of power would have some trouble with it. Gandalf, by virtue of being Istar (a type of Maiar) matched the balrog because they are both angel-level beings (Balrog just happened to be under Sauron, Gandalf is underling of the Valar). It's just that he's like a Solar (Sauron likely advanced to minor deity after Melkor got rekt), but with most of his active abiliteis sealed away, unless in the vicinity of an equivalent being. If he gets to be solo near another Solar level encounter his binding slip away and he gets to kick ass again.

But, when it comes to heroics and the like, because the world was created by what is best decribed as the deity of bards everywhere, the universe seems to run on narrativium, where the story that needs to be told gets to woo and roger reality on a regular basis...

Also, regarding Mithril, it is dwarven only for tools, but for jewellery and such it was an important ingredient to Ithildin, which is prettier and elven only.

Zale
2015-06-08, 09:33 AM
I personally feel that Middle Earth isn't so much Low Magic as Subtle Magic.

Magic is mostly stuff that doesn't flash or bang, and the difference between being really good at something and magic is kind of blurry.

Do elves make good swords because they're really good sword-smiths, or do they make swords because they are magic, or is there really a difference?

You could probably use bards as spell casters and prune most of the flashy spells away and get basically everything Gandalf did.

Highly motivative and capable of making people get along? Check.

Assists his party with fighting and the perform (Oratory)? Check.

Misc. magic that is rarely seen but helpful (Animal Messenger, etc.)? Check.


Alternatively, you could just restructure magic around enchantment, divination and (Potentially) illusion and achieve much of the same feel.

But your mileage may vary.

Dienekes
2015-06-08, 09:58 AM
Well, on HP, Smaug was killed by an arrow that was specifically crafted by Dwarves to be dragon slaying, so a dragonbane enchentment would be expected.

No, this is movie only. The Black Arrow was never specifically about dragon slaying, it just never missed and Bard (and his father and grandfather and so on) always recovered it after firing.


Boromir just had delay death active, like the Knight base class, allowing him to die (effectively in the first round when he is hit), aand then delay his death to redeem himself and kick ass (he finished chewing bubblegum a long time ago).

Possible, I would just go with the Diehard feat though. Interestingly, depending on where Boromir was hit, taking so long to die with many arrows isn't actually unrealistic. When hopped up on adrenaline the body can do amazing things. Now, killing, what was it? 20 some orcs and 4 uruk-hai? That's pretty damn near impossible.

Socratov
2015-06-08, 11:43 AM
No, this is movie only. The Black Arrow was never specifically about dragon slaying, it just never missed and Bard (and his father and grandfather and so on) always recovered it after firing.Oh, that would make actual less sense since the whole problem of dragons is piercing their scales. But still, for the movier version it would be dragon bane, and for the book sit would be seeking/indestructable (in DnD ammunition is destroyed when fired, so that needs to be fixed as well...)
Possible, I would just go with the Diehard feat though. Interestingly, depending on where Boromir was hit, taking so long to die with many arrows isn't actually unrealistic. When hopped up on adrenaline the body can do amazing things. Now, killing, what was it? 20 some orcs and 4 uruk-hai? That's pretty damn near impossible.to mne this is pretty much the same since the endresults are the same. And yes, it's pretty damn capital 'H' Heroic what he did there. Definitely took 'em down with him... Which also makes the scene that more powerful, both in the books as in the movie (Sean Bean was such a great castinbg for Boromir). As far as redemptions go, this is one of the very best out there.

Dienekes
2015-06-08, 11:51 AM
Oh, that would make actual less sense since the whole problem of dragons is piercing their scales. But still, for the movier version it would be dragon bane, and for the book sit would be seeking/indestructable (in DnD ammunition is destroyed when fired, so that needs to be fixed as well...)



"I have always understood," said Bilbo in a frightened squeak, "that dragons were softer
underneath, especially in the region of the-er-chest; but doubtless one so fortified has
thought of that."
The dragon stopped short in his boasting. "Your information is antiquated," he snapped.
"I am armoured above and below with iron scales and hard gems. No blade can pierce
me."
"I might have guessed it," said Bilbo. "Truly there can; nowhere be found the equal of
Lord Smaug the Impenetrable. What magnificence to possess a waistcoat of fine
diamonds!"
"Yes, it is rare and wonderful, indeed," said Smaug absurdly pleased. He did not know
that the hobbit had already caught a glimpse of his peculiar under-covering on his
previous visit, and was itching for a closer view for reasons of his own. The dragon rolled
over. "Look!" he said. "What do you say to that?"
"Dazzlingly marvellous! Perfect! Flawless! Staggering!" exclaimed Bilbo aloud, but what
he thought inside was: "Old fool! Why there is a large patch in the hollow of his left
breast as bare as a snail out of its shell!

Dragons have weak, easily pierced stomachs (actually a pretty horrible weakness for a creature that is almost always overtop their enemies in battle). Smaug covered his in gems and diamonds and whatnot to become armoured. Then Bilbo sees the one weak spot, which he eventually tells a thrush to tell to Bard who shoots it with an arrow that never misses. Killing the dragon. So by lore, killing a dragon with a shot to the stomach is not seen as anything particularly impossible. What makes Bard's shot so impressive was how difficult that shot was.

So yeah Seeking is about right, probably even more impressive than that though. Something like a large to hit bonus.


to mne this is pretty much the same since the endresults are the same. And yes, it's pretty damn capital 'H' Heroic what he did there. Definitely took 'em down with him... Which also makes the scene that more powerful, both in the books as in the movie (Sean Bean was such a great castinbg for Boromir). As far as redemptions go, this is one of the very best out there.

Yeah, it is a pretty awesome bit.

Talakeal
2015-06-08, 11:56 AM
One thing I don't like about the movie removing the thrush aspect is that now Bilbo, the titular Hobbit, has no part in actually slaying the dragon.




Of course, it is better than the first draft of the book where Bilbo kills the dragon himself and then sails out of mountain atop a tidal wave of blood.

Dienekes
2015-06-08, 12:01 PM
One thing I don't like about the movie removing the thrush aspect is that now Bilbo, the titular Hobbit, has no part in actually slaying the dragon.




Of course, it is better than the first draft of the book where Bilbo kills the dragon himself and then sails out of mountain atop a tidal wave of blood.

I agree, it actually could have worked with some set up. Even if you want to remove the magic talking to birds thing, which (if memory serves) kind of comes out of nowhere. Have the Master give Thorin a messanger bird to send a message of their success. Have Bilbo frantically write a message about the missing chink in the dragon's armor and have the bird fly to the rookery, which as the tallest building in Lake Town is where Bard is making his last stand. Providing Bard with the information and eventual success.

Vetril
2015-06-09, 04:45 AM
I think you should give Noldor elves (and anyone who went to Valinor) a template and the Otherworldly feat. You could also force all elves to be gestalt characters. MERP also had a rule that pretty much made elves prioritize to various degrees the equivalent of Charisma in exchange of larger racial bonuses. I aalways thought that was quite smart.

Socratov
2015-06-09, 06:20 AM
I think you should give Noldor elves (and anyone who went to Valinor) a template and the Otherworldly feat. You could also force all elves to be gestalt characters. MERP also had a rule that pretty much made elves prioritize to various degrees the equivalent of Charisma in exchange of larger racial bonuses. I aalways thought that was quite smart.

well, if you follow my idea of introducing RHD for the races to become what they areyou coudl just make a racial hd progression for the noldor elves that makes them stronger the 3rd age elves...