Schism for the win?

[Pippin]

While browsing the Expanded Psionics Handbook, I encountered this beauty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/schism.htm). If you have a ioun stone, it basically allows you to manifest another 8th-level or lower power each round at 20th level. And nothing in the description prevents you from manifesting and using more than one Schism at the same time... Get this persisted asap!

Why is such a cheesy power so little discussed on these boards?

[Troacctid]

It's sort of common wisdom that Psions have a lot of action economy abuse. It's not just Schism, it's also Linked Power, Fission, Anticipatory Strike, Time Stop, and some other stuff I can't remember. But yeah, that's a thing Psions are good at. You still have to spend power points, so it mostly makes your nova better.

Psionic Persist is 3.0 material, by the way, and 3.0 psionics was superseded entirely by 3.5 psionics, so access to it is at the DM's discretion.

[thethird]

I think I asked once if you could manifest several schisms, it was mentioned that only one would work, otherwise I would schism, and then both me and the schism, etcetera etcetera.

[Douglas]

It's a general rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#sameEffectMorethanOncein DifferentStrengths) that multiple instances of the same effect don't stack, so multiple Schisms doesn't work. As for Persistent, I am not aware of any official published psionic version of Persistent Spell, and you can't apply metamagic feats to psionic powers.

It gets discussed so little because psionics in general get discussed so little. When psionic optimization discussion does come up, Schism is routinely part of the core set of major power tricks.

[Pippin]

It's sort of common wisdom that Psions have a lot of action economy abuse. It's not just Schism, it's also Linked Power, Fission, and some other stuff I can't remember. But yeah, that's a thing Psions are good at. You still have to spend power points, so it mostly makes your nova better.
Linked Power burns your Focus though.


Psionic Persist is 3.0 material, by the way, and 3.0 psionics was superseded entirely by 3.5 psionics, so access to it is at the DM's discretion.
Who said anything about Persistent Power? Any Incantatrix 3/Ardent 1 with the Magic mantle could do that for you.

[Tvtyrant]

While browsing the Expanded Psionics Handbook, I encountered this beauty (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/schism.htm). If you have a ioun stone, it basically allows you to manifest another 8th-level or lower power each round at 20th level. And nothing in the description prevents you from manifesting and using more than one Schism at the same time... Get this persisted asap!

Why is such a cheesy power so little discussed on these boards?

You can have only Schism, as magical effects they do not stack. Your Schism is not a creature and so cannot have a schism. It is probably not discussed much because it is practically powerful and the Internet privileges theoretical optimization.

[Troacctid]

Linked Power burns your Focus though.
Schism burns your standard action. *shrug*


Who said anything about Persistent Power? Any Incantatrix 3/Ardent 1 with the Magic mantle could do that for you.
Well, you can't use Persistent Spell on powers, since they're spell-like abilities, not spells, so yeah.

It's not like you need to persist it for it to be good...

[Grod_The_Giant]

Linked Power is good because it lets you manifest powers with long casting times quickly. (It also arguably sidesteps the Erudite's unique powers per day limit). Schism is bat**** insane because it explicitly lets you manifest an extra power each turn. It's not even an unexpected or tortured reading-- it's literally the first thing the book suggests that you can do with your second mind. I don't know what the heck the designers were thinking when they wrote that.

[Pippin]

It's a general rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#sameEffectMorethanOncein DifferentStrengths) that multiple instances of the same effect don't stack, so multiple Schisms doesn't work. As for Persistent, I am not aware of any official published psionic version of Persistent Spell, and you can't apply metamagic feats to psionic powers.

It gets discussed so little because psionics in general get discussed so little. When psionic optimization discussion does come up, Schism is routinely part of the core set of major power tricks.
Oh I see. Oh well, one instance at a time is already insanely good.


Well, you can't use Persistent Spell on powers, since they're spell-like abilities, not spells, so yeah.
What? Unless I'm mitaken, there's no reason that the Magic Mantle shouldn't allow you to apply Persistent Spell on a power with Range: Personal.


It's not like you need to persist it for it to be good...
Well don't point out that I'd lose my standard action then, because persisting it solves this. (Also, you can always use Temporal Acceleration if you can't afford losing 1 round.)

[Troacctid]

What? Unless I'm mitaken, there's no reason that the Magic Mantle shouldn't allow you to apply Persistent Spell on a power with Range: Personal.

You are mistaken. There are multiple reasons. The big two are: 1. Even with enforced transparency, powers are still spell-like abilities, not spells, and 2. they aren't cast from spell slots, so you can't cast them from a spell slot six levels higher.

[Forrestfire]

Powers are psi-like abilities with special rules, not spell-like abilities.

[Pippin]

You are mistaken. There are multiple reasons. The big two are: 1. Even with enforced transparency, powers are still spell-like abilities, not spells, and 2. they aren't cast from spell slots, so you can't cast them from a spell slot six levels higher.
It doesn't matter if you cast powers from spell slots or not, the Incantatrix 3/Ardent 1 would see and treat Schism as a 4th-level spell and deduce the DC from that. Also I've never heard anything about powers being spell-like abilities.

I'm sure some DMs would go your way though, because that enables less cheese. But I don't think that's the most natural and objective way to rule it.

[J-H]

Schism is one of the "must-haves" for every psionic caster. If you're not a Telepath, you can pick it up at level 12 with Expanded Knowledge, typically.

The disadvantage is that it burns your PP faster.
A level 20 psion with INT 30 has 443pp. A full nova scenario is:

Swift action: Manifest quickened power, 20pp; expend psionic focus
Standard action: Manifest power, 20pp
Schism'd action: Manifest power, 14pp
Move action: Regain psionic focus

There are some tweaks, including an epic feat at level 21 that lets you use 2 metapsionics at once (Twinned Quickened indeed). Still, you're burning about 54pp per round. After 8 rounds of combat, you are done and dry for the day. Less, if you've buffed up before. I had a level 30 psion whose full buff routine cost over 100pp...

At that rate of PP consumption, if a fight lasts just 3 rounds, you have 2 battles before your tank is empty.

Meanwhile, a wizard, even with quickened spells, is just getting started. A level 20 wizard with 30 INT has 71 spell slots, not counting cantrips or additional slots from a specific spell school. Even at two spell slots per round, the wizard still can go for 35 rounds of combat. Sure, some of those slots are for buffs, or are low-level spells, but the wizard is still able to contribute long after the psion is reduced to using his dagger.

That which burns brightest also burns shortest.

[Grod_The_Giant]

That which burns brightest also burns shortest.
Except for the fact that it's pretty easy to get infinite pp.

[DrMartin]

Schism is one of the "must-haves" for every psionic caster. If you're not a Telepath, you can pick it up at level 12 with Expanded Knowledge, typically.

The disadvantage is that it burns your PP faster.

That which burns brightest also burns shortest.

It is actually way more sustainable than using Temporal Acceleration every round, or even linked power + synchronicity (if reading synchronicity as though it grants an extra action). So yeah, schism is really really good, but if you talk about theoretical builds (aka don't have to dodge books thrown at you) than you usually also come up with ways to have infinite power points and near-infinite actions without it.

[frogglesmash]

One thing that you can do with schism and that I'm not sure has been mentioned on this thread yet is use it to manifest synchronicity and then use synchronicity to get around schism's manifester level limitation at the cost of 1 more PP.

[Pippin]

Except for the fact that it's pretty easy to get infinite pp.
I've been wondering about this. While there are many ways to regain PP, are we sure that we can exceed the daily allotment limit? That isn't specified anywhere in the XPH, but Leech Field has the following line:


You gain 1 power point for every 2 power points your foe spent to manifest the power you just saved against (to a maximum number of points equal to your manifester level). You cannot gain power points that would cause you to exceed your normal daily maximum.

It most probably only addresses how Leech Field works, but some people might see it as a "reminder" of basic rules, just like spell descriptions sometimes remind the reader that you can't have more than 1 swift action in the same turn.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I've been wondering about this. While there are many ways to regain PP, are we sure that we can exceed the daily allotment limit?
Seems a reasonable limit, but who cares? The daily limit is enough to go hardcore nova on an encounter, then you can use your trick of choice to recharge back up to full for the next one.

[Segev]

I've been wondering about this. While there are many ways to regain PP, are we sure that we can exceed the daily allotment limit? That isn't specified anywhere in the XPH, but Leech Field has the following line:



It most probably only addresses how Leech Field works, but some people might see it as a "reminder" of basic rules, just like spell descriptions sometimes remind the reader that you can't have more than 1 swift action in the same turn.

All that's saying is that you can't use a Leech Field to have, at any given point in time, more PP than your maximum. That is, if your daily maximum is 50 pp, you can use Leech Field to recover pp up to a total of 50, but if you're at 50pp, Leech Field won't let you get any more pp until you spend some of it.

[Psyren]

Linked Power is good because it lets you manifest powers with long casting times quickly. (It also arguably sidesteps the Erudite's unique powers per day limit). Schism is bat**** insane because it explicitly lets you manifest an extra power each turn. It's not even an unexpected or tortured reading-- it's literally the first thing the book suggests that you can do with your second mind. I don't know what the heck the designers were thinking when they wrote that.

2-3 powers/spells per round isn't broken if you pay for them appropriately :smallconfused: High-level casters are more or less expected to be slinging nukes like this around, and what is sauce for the PCs is sauce for the mindflayers. The ML penalty also helps keep things in check, as ML penalties hurt more than even CL ones.

Where it gets broken is with infinite/recharge PP shenanigans, but those are inherently broken anyway - you can ban them without throwing Schism and the other action economy tricks out the door. (Though I would personally toss Linked Power right down the mineshaft alongside them.)

[Deadline]

If you want to get silly as far as actions per round are concerned, I think the following works:

1. Be an Elan, and use the psionic Alter Self or Polymorph equivalent to turn into a Choker.
2. Use Metamorphic Transfer to gain the Choker's Quickness ability.
3. Fission.
4. Fissioned individuals each use Schism.
5. ???
6. Profit!

I think it only lets you unload tons of lower level powers, but still.

[Pippin]

Seems a reasonable limit, but who cares? The daily limit is enough to go hardcore nova on an encounter, then you can use your trick of choice to recharge back up to full for the next one.
It's true that you could regain all your PP during combat with Temporal Acceleration anyway... Why do I even bother :smallsigh:

[Psyren]

It's true that you could regain all your PP during combat with Temporal Acceleration anyway... Why do I even bother :smallsigh:

Again, regaining PP is what you should be banning (pretty much always), not psionic action economy.

[Segev]

Okay, I know the Psicrystal Shared Power Bestow Power technique, as well as techniques involving Complete Psi cost-reducers to make Sharing Power with yourself profitable. But how do you make Temporal Acceleration regain you power points?

[Psyren]

Okay, I know the Psicrystal Shared Power Bestow Power technique, as well as techniques involving Complete Psi cost-reducers to make Sharing Power with yourself profitable. But how do you make Temporal Acceleration regain you power points?

I assume he meant "taking a time-out mid-fight to do one of the other methods without getting attacked."

[frogglesmash]

I don't think the payoff from most recharge methods is high enough to offset the cost of temporal acceleration during the time allotted, let alone charge you up to full. The most efficient recharge methods I've come up with only net you 2 PP a round which definitely does not offset temporal accelerations 7 PP cost, so unless there's either a way to super extend Temporal acceleration or gain insane amounts of points very quickly it's not going to work. If someone does know how to make this work I'd be very interested to hear it explained.

[Pippin]

I don't think the payoff from most recharge methods is high enough to offset the cost of temporal acceleration during the time allotted, let alone charge you up to full. The most efficient recharge methods I've come up with only net you 2 PP a round which definitely does not offset temporal accelerations 7 PP cost, so unless there's either a way to super extend Temporal acceleration or gain insane amounts of points very quickly it's not going to work. If someone does know how to make this work I'd be very interested to hear it explained.
Never mind, I've just noticed that Affinity Field can't replicate Temporal Acceleration.

I don't know what Grod had in mind but here is the trick I was thinking about:

Minimum Level: 17

You need:
1) Affinity Field
2) Bestow Power
3) At least 59 remaining Power Points
4) Fission (or another Psion with Bestow Power, but Fission is doing it with Style)

Method:
1) Manifest Fission (which costs 13 PP, and cuts your remaining power points in half - you'll need at least 23 remaining after that)
2) Manifest Affinity Field (Cost: 17 PP, you need at least 6 remaining when you're done)
3) You: Manifest Bestow Power on yourself, augmented as high as you dare (Giving yourself X*2/3 power points, costing you X power points - in the minimal example, you spend all 6 PP, to give yourself 4), and sharing it with your Fissioned duplicate (so 4 PP to you, 4 PP to your duplicate).
Fissioned Duplicate: Manifests Bestow Power on you, to the maximum it can without damaging itself, which is shared back by Affinity Field (it'll have at least 27 Power Points at this point, but could have a manifester level as low as 15, which we'll assume for here). So it spends 15 power points to give you 10, and itself 10 through Affinity field.
This round, you have spent 6 power points, and gone up by 14; your duplicate has spent 15 power points, and gone up by 14.
4) You: Manifest Bestow Power on yourself, augmented as high as you dare (you should have a minimum of 14 power points at this point - Spend 12 on Bestow Power, and you have 2, but gain 8 - for a total of 10... and 8 of those are also given to your duplicate.
Your Duplicate: Manifest Bestow Power on you (max of 15 points spent, ten for you, ten for your duplicate back through affinity field).
At this step, you've lost 12 power points, and gained back 18, for a six-point gain.
5) Go To 4 until either Fission or the Affinity Field expire.
6) After a few rounds, you'll have fully paid off your power point expenditure. Oh yes, and when you merge with your duplicate, you get all of it's power points as well - and it's power point total has been going up, too.

Note: Some DM's will read a particular line in Fission, and decide this doesn't work. If your DM does that, just make sure there's another party member with a manifester level of 6 or higher in the party that knows Bestow Power. This manifester takes the place of your Fissioned duplicate... and can actually make the effect slightly more efficient. It's less cool, though.
Source: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook