Dark Chaos Shuffle?

[frogglesmash]

What are your opinions on Dark Chaos Shuffle? Is it generally considered TO or PO? I'd personally allow it at my table if it's only used as a method of retraining or possibly to get yourself one or two extra feats, but I'm curious to see what the general consensus is.

[Curmudgeon]

Feats are generally in short supply, yet there are some classes which grant specific feats. A Ranger may well prefer feats other than Track and Endurance. For the high cost of the shuffle (2,450 gp x 2 for each feat exchanged) it doesn't seem at all abusive.

Now, if it's a Wizard casting Heroics and then trying the shuffle before that spell runs out, the Wizard's player is in serious need of a DMG upside their head. :smallbiggrin:

[Uncle Pine]

I like it. If WBL-breaking shenanigans are not in play and there are no Wizards that can cast Embrace the Dark Chaos and Shun the Dark Chaos in the group it's not cheap enough to be highly abusable. If you have a friendly Wizard in the party to cast them, it's still a nice way to switch some useless low-level feats you might have needed to survive at low levels or for early entries. Also, since Embrace the Dark Chaos has the [Chaotic] descriptor not everyone is going to make liberal use of it from a RP point of view.
Now, if WBL-breaking shenanigans, elves and VoP are fair play, I can see Dark Chaos Shuffle shift from PO to TO.

EDIT: Also, Heroics. Thanks Curmudgeon.

[OldTrees1]

It is clearly TO to me. Especially since it is usually used as finite iterations of an infinite loop or to create time paradox builds (I don't like Time Paradox builds). However I don't allow Tier 1-2 classes to perform above Tier 3 at my table so ...

If a Tier 4+ character asks for the shuffle, I would work out another solution rather than allow the shuffle.

[Pippin]

Now, if it's a Wizard casting Heroics and then trying the shuffle before that spell runs out, the Wizard's player is in serious need of a DMG upside their head. :smallbiggrin:
How would you react if a player takes VoP for the sole purpose of DCFS? Technically, he's not quite using Heroics :smallbiggrin:

[Taveena]

Elf Ranger DCFS away racial proficiencies, track, and endurance. TO or PO?

[Kazyan]

For me, it's TO. It seems really hacky to me and ties fluff in a knot. You want to have a changeable feat, you take two levels in Chameleon.

[Khedrac]

How would you react if a player takes VoP for the sole purpose of DCFS? Technically, he's not quite using Heroics :smallbiggrin:

That one is easy - the moment the character says "yes" to Embrace the Dark Chaos they have committed an evil act and just lost all the benefits of Vow of Poverty.
The bonus feats are a benefit and are therefore lost and no longer available to shuffle.

I am not saying I would rule the character's alignment has changed - it hasn't, but this is certainly not the act of an exalted character.

Also so one DCSs the first feat away. You then Embrace a second feat away and go back for the Redeem - any decent caster will go "no - you are not truly in need of redemption, go and live with that feat for a while as a penance." I don't see potential casters of these spells as agreeing to use them just for character reformation.
If the PCs are able to get the spells themselves, that makes it more viable, but I would be looking very closely at their alignments. It is also a big "if" - these spells are not just going to be readily available.

[OldTrees1]

That one is easy - the moment the character says "yes" to Embrace the Dark Chaos they have committed an evil act and just lost all the benefits of Vow of Poverty.
The bonus feats are a benefit and are therefore lost and no longer available to shuffle.

I am not saying I would rule the character's alignment has changed - it hasn't, but this is certainly not the act of an exalted character.

Um. By RAW it is a Chaotic act not an Evil act. However I understand the houserule since they are Abyssal Heritor feats. Although heritage (ala Tiefling) usually does not affect alignment.

[Jowgen]

That one is easy - the moment the character says "yes" to Embrace the Dark Chaos they have committed an evil act and just lost all the benefits of Vow of Poverty.
The bonus feats are a benefit and are therefore lost and no longer available to shuffle.

I am not saying I would rule the character's alignment has changed - it hasn't, but this is certainly not the act of an exalted character.

Embrace the Dark Chaos, despite being from an abyss based book, is not an evil spell. It's chaotic. Casting or accepting the casting is a chaotic act, but not an evil one (unless of course it's somehow done for an evil purpose). A CN Exalted character (or even a NG exlated character) would be completely unaffected.

[Hellborn_Blight]

First, not sure what TO and PO mean, but from context clues, I gather that PO is..ok, and TO is...not. So I'd say generally 'not." Mostly because Psychic Reformation is already around, and doesn't break classes and races. I also grant feats as story rewards, and it would annoy me to have to deal with that. So I rule it works the same as PR, in that only feats from leveling can be changed. I really like PR though, and make it a way you can retro actively gain skill point from a later gained higher Int, so my answer is biased:smalltongue:.

[OldTrees1]

First, not sure what TO and PO mean, but from context clues, I gather that PO is..ok, and TO is...not.

PO(Practical Optimization) is the optimization you, as a DM, would allow at your table. TO(Theoretical Optimization) is the optimization you don't allow at your table.

[Komatik]

First, not sure what TO and PO mean, but from context clues, I gather that PO is..ok, and TO is...not. So I'd say generally 'not." Mostly because Psychic Reformation is already around, and doesn't break classes and races. I also grant feats as story rewards, and it would annoy me to have to deal with that. So I rule it works the same as PR, in that only feats from leveling can be changed. I really like PR though, and make it a way you can retro actively gain skill point from a later gained higher Int, so my answer is biased:smalltongue:.

PO = Practical Optimization = optimization that you can reasonably expect to get to play and bring yourself to play in a real game.

TO = Theoretical Optimization = Thought exercises on just how hilariously and thoroughly the game can be broken, bent and twisted into something unrecognizable. These are just exploring bugs in the system for fun, never meant to see actual play outside of Tippy's infamously high-powered table.

[Taveena]

Pun-Pun, for example, is unambiguously TO, because he takes all the fun out of a game.

In other cases it tends to vary a lot - Tippy's pretty famous because his group treats a lot of really, really high-op stuff as PO, and as a result you get Wizards constantly swapping their prepared spells with Wishes paid for by Thought Bottled XP.

[Curmudgeon]

How would you react if a player takes VoP for the sole purpose of DCFS?
That just doesn't work. Once the player acquires enough money to afford the cost of one casting of Embrace the Dark Chaos, they've broken their Vow of Poverty and lost all the VoP feats.

[frogglesmash]

That just doesn't work. Once the player acquires enough money to afford the cost of one casting of Embrace the Dark Chaos, they've broken their Vow of Poverty and lost all the VoP feats.

They could quest in exchange for favours, or get a fellow party member to pay for them.

[Curmudgeon]

They could quest in exchange for favours, or get a fellow party member to pay for them.
Well, gee, if you can get a fellow party member to shell out 29,400 gp for you at level 10 (60% of their total wealth) to convert all your Exalted feats at that point, then why not just forget about Vow of Poverty and have your friend give you 60% of their wealth on top of your own?

Only intelligent characters of good alignment and the highest moral standards can acquire exalted feats, and only as a gift from powerful agents of good—deities, celestials, or similar creatures. My guess is that most DMs would quickly deduce that your moral standards aren't high enough if you're discarding every Exalted feat for non-Exalted ones, and you'd lose everything.

[Telonius]

For feats gained by regular level-ups and Bonus class feats? Maybe. Maybe.

Racial and weapon/armor proficiency feats? No way.

[Uncle Pine]

That just doesn't work. Once the player acquires enough money to afford the cost of one casting of Embrace the Dark Chaos, they've broken their Vow of Poverty and lost all the VoP feats.
He doesn't acquire any money. He just cast those spells if he's a Cleric, Sorcerer or Wizard, paying in xp, or let one of the other member of the party cast them for him. 500 xp/feat aren't much of an investment, after all.

[frogglesmash]

Well, gee, if you can get a fellow party member to shell out 29,400 gp for you at level 10 (60% of their total wealth) to convert all your Exalted feats at that point, then why not just forget about Vow of Poverty and have your friend give you 60% of their wealth on top of your own?
No need to get so touchy about it, I was just pointing out that money wasn't an absolute deal breaker, even less so if you just give all your money to the party member in question so they can spend it on your behalf. If this is not allowed by RAW I apologize in advance, I've never been very interested in VoP and as such have never bothered to really look it over. There's also the highly unlikely possibility that there's a wizard in the party who could perform the shuffle on you free of charge. Oh, and incase you go off on me about xp costs I'm just gonna mention the thought bottle which the wizard will probably have considering the amount of cheese that's involved here.

[Chronos]

The way I'd houserule it is that you can only chaos shuffle a feat to another feat you could have chosen in its place. An ordinary every-three-levels feat? Yeah, go nuts. A Loremaster's bonus feat? Same thing. A fighter bonus feat? You'll have to turn it into another fighter bonus feat (are there even any abyssal heritor feats that are fighter feats?). Bonus feats from Vow of Poverty? Those would have to be turned into other exalted feats (and I'm certain there aren't any exalted abyssal heritor feats). Elven weapon proficiencies? No, sorry, you never had a choice about those, so you can't change your choice.

[Segev]

I consider the DCS to be TO, for the most part, because the fluff surrounding it is such that it should require RP that amounts to non-insignificant questing and task performance to take advantage of. I'd probably permit it, but it would take some work, IC, and (especially for Exalted feats) would come with consequences.

Not, "Muahahaha these other mechanical effects that were not mentioned are now getting you!" consequences, but rather, "You've pacted with the Abyss/offended the light/etc." sort of things. Again, particularly if you're trading out Exalted feats, it'd be something you'd have to do all at once, probably as part of a massive face-heel turn, because it'd be representing a tale of one who had risen so high in righteousness falling to the depths of villainy. Even if he's not "fallen" just yet out of Good alignment, it would represent a loss of his Exalted status, certainly, and there would be significant efforts to further tempt him (much as Pazuzu likes corrupting Paladins with initially very-pleasingly-granted Wishes).

Completing the Shuffle actually is somewhat okay, but still marks you for...attention. If you go to an NPC, he's going to want favors and he'll encourage you to come back for repeat business. These are Chaotic spells, and Chaos is all about results by whatever means. If you've got a friendly PC enabling it (or are casting it yourself), then you're still drawing the attentions of Chaotic (and often Evil) powers, and they may send interesting opportunities your way.

In short, it's TO if you expect to "just do it." In PO, it's going to be a plot-enabler, and I rarely have trouble awarding power (and consequences of using that power) as part of pursuit of game-enhancing plot.

[eggynack]

My guess is that most DMs would quickly deduce that your moral standards aren't high enough if you're discarding every Exalted feat for non-Exalted ones, and you'd lose everything.
Way I figure it, by the time the universe has recognized that you're secretly a jerk, you've already traded away everything that could be lost by not being exalted. Such is the nature of the dark chaos shuffle, after all. I guess things could get awkward if you have some other things dependent on your exalted status, but the solution to that is to just, y'know, not have those.

As for the OP's question, the answer is that it depends. The line between theoretical and practical optimization is not a solid one, and it moves around depending on the table. If you're in a game with a bunch of low optimization folk, beating away at enemies with fist and fireball alike, then DCFS is probably way too much, and thus TO, while in a Tippy style game, where disjunction use is balanced out by wish loops, then the highest density usage of DCFS is probably just routine, and thus PO. Of course, DCFS, like optimization scale, exists on a spectrum, so any amount of DCFS could be too much for one game, the line in another could be shuffling away elf feats, and a third could have everything fair game.

[Taelas]

As long as it isn't used to get an insane amount of free feats, I don't really mind it, even if you do stuff like shuffle away feat prerequisites (and assuming your table does not play with the interpretation that doing so takes away prestige class abilities). But if you start out with an Elf just to shuffle away your racial bonus feats, don't expect it to fly.

[SinsI]

If the player has it on his spell list (or is a Warlock that created the scrolls with his Imbue Item ability), and uses it on a permanent feat he has (not an item or Heroics-granted one) - he is welcome.
If he wants it on Heroics, I'd say he can still get a new permanent feat - but the XP cost would increase to (20,000 gp / 5 xp per gp) = 4,000 XP per feat. Maybe throw in additional Permanency requirement to account for the difference (3,500 XP).

[ExLibrisMortis]

As long as it isn't used to get an insane amount of free feats, I don't really mind it, even if you do stuff like shuffle away feat prerequisites (and assuming your table does not play with the interpretation that doing so takes away prestige class abilities). But if you start out with an Elf just to shuffle away your racial bonus feats, don't expect it to fly.
This, basically. I never liked that racial weapon proficiencies count as feats. Personally, I'd rather houserule that they are proficiencies, but not feats (just like +1 ability score is not an epic feat).

@VOP discussion: You could do your shuffles inside a few time stops, that's a pretty sure way to avoid any divine intervention. Yes, if you worship a deity, they will be very upset, and that'll have IC consequences. On the other hand, if you're an ascetic for your own sake, and you decide you've had enough... well, nothing to be done about that, DCS away.

Players probably plan that sort of thing ahead of time, which is hard to justify IC. IC justification is possible, though, as long as you didn't plan ahead IC. You could say: "All these years, I had nothing, and for what? The orphanage burned down anyway (it's a big orphanage, level 18 WBL). That guy has piles of cash, and he's saved exactly as many people as I have! What a waste of time. Well, let me get what power I can from this, so that it wasn't completely useless - DCS here I come!"

[lsfreak]

Shuffling level and class bonus feats are fine. Shuffling Elder Evil and item location feats are on the border, you'll probably get watched more closely and you can only benefit once (you can't follow an Elder Evil, shuffle the feats, and then follow another Elder Evil). Racial proficiencies and class armor/weapon proficiencies are out, and you could shuffle heroics but it would disappear when heroics does. VoP feats can't be shuffled largely for the same reasons Curmudgeon gives, if I allowed VoP.

For the most part, though, I'd prefer pointing players in the direction of Psychic Reformation or simply asking to retrain things, and houseruling underpowered bonus/prereq feats into something useful enough that they're not automatically wanting to be shuffled away.

[AvatarVecna]

In regards to the OPs question: performing a DCS costs XP and uses up feat slots (and if nobody in the party knows the spell, it also costs money). Thus, with XP (and maybe money) having to be spent to rechoose your feat slots (maximum of 10 normally), it should be fine. When you get into tricks that give you tons of free XP (nested Thought Bottles, to name the obvious method), free money (Wall of Salt/Wish shenanigans), and extra feats (too many ways to count), it stops being an expenditure of resources and has turned into "I just have whatever feats I want". My Khepri build has whatever feats I want her to have, but that's because Khepri has infinite feats. That's broken TO.


How would you react if a player takes VoP for the sole purpose of DCFS? Technically, he's not quite using Heroics :smallbiggrin:

I'm going to repeat myself from the last time I saw this come up: as an Exalted feat, one of the requirements to keep it is that you maintain being an Exalted Good character; you are the guy who looks at the Lawful Good Monk/Paladin and would chastise them for being so sinful if you weren't too nice to mention it. Your Vow of Poverty is an agreement between you and the universe's collective Good beings that you refuse to let the powers of greed and avarice control you; I would not allow a PC to take Vow of Poverty if I knew for a fact that they only did so in order to profit from it later. And the second that your Vow of Poverty, Exalted Good PC seriously considers spending their divine gift in order to embrace the power of the Abyss...well, it may not be an Evil act, but it's just non-Good enough to knock the character off their Exalted Good pedestal and lose them the feat that gave them all those feats. Note: I didn't say the first time they do it, but the first time they start weighing the pros and cons. The point of the Vow is to stick with it because you believe in the ideal; if you willfully and intentionally fall from that ideal, you aren't blessed by the universe anymore.

Of course, this is entirely "DM judgement", but I've talked over this very issue with 7 previous DMs, and they all share this stance with me. This, in my mind, makes DCS'ing your VoP feats away into solid TO material: it only works if the DM in question only cares about pure RAW regardless of reason and logic.


@VOP discussion: You could do your shuffles inside a few time stops, that's a pretty sure way to avoid any immediate divine intervention. Yes, if you worship a deity, they will be very upset, and that'll have IC consequences. On the other hand, if you're an ascetic for your own sake, and you decide you've had enough... well, nothing to be done about that, DCS away.

Players probably plan that sort of thing ahead of time, which is hard to justify IC. IC justification is possible, though, as long as you didn't plan ahead IC. You could say: "All these years, I had nothing, and for what? The orphanage burned down anyway (it's a big orphanage, level 18 WBL). That guy has piles of cash, and he's saved exactly as many people as I have! What a waste of time. Well, let me get what power I can from this, so that it wasn't completely useless - DCS here I come!"

FTFY. Just because you broke a divine law when the gods weren't looking doesn't mean they can't tell you broke the divine law, and doesn't mean they won't punish you for it. And that's assuming that deities have no way of observing and/or affecting those in a Time Stop. Of course, that would be ridiculous: it's not like there's rules for epic, super-powerful beings to straight-up ignore Time Stop, right? Well, other than those rules for making Time Stop a SR: Yes spell in the Epic Level Handbook. Or if there's any Good deities of Time, who would see this cow poo coming.

And your example? Thinking those kinds of things, believing those kinds of things, carrying out actions based on those kinds of things would automatically lose you your Exalted status in one of my games. You are trying to profit off the blessings of the universe.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/007/423/untitle.JPG

[OldTrees1]

-snip-

Of course, this is entirely "DM judgement", but I've talked over this very issue with 7 previous DMs, and they all share this stance with me. This, in my mind, makes DCS'ing your VoP feats away into solid TO material: it only works if the DM in question only cares about pure RAW regardless of reason and logic.

While it is "DM judgement", it is a very reasonable stance to take on Exalted. If you are still counting you can increase that number by a fair few.

As to your argument in the bottom half of the post: Isn't it the feat (and thus the Character's personal timeline) that revokes itself? I don't think you need to argue for divine intervention vs Time Stop in order to prove your stance.

[AvatarVecna]

While it is "DM judgement", it is a very reasonable stance to take on Exalted. If you are still counting you can increase that number by a fair few.

As to your argument in the bottom half of the post: Isn't it the feat (and thus the Character's personal timeline) that revokes itself? I don't think you need to argue for divine intervention vs Time Stop in order to prove your stance.

Nice to know there's reasonable people online. As for the second part of your post, that depends: if the VoP benefits are bestowed on your character by the Good Powers that Be, then divine intervention vs. Time Stop must be explained; if the VoP benefits are a result of a mortal mind, body, and soul reacting to their being's Exalted Good status, then no divine intervention argument needs to be made. It comes down to whether the changes come from within your being or from the out-of-body universe...but either way, the ultimate result is that you lose your powers, so the actual answer is almost completely irrelevant.

[Pippin]

one of the requirements to keep it is that you maintain being an Exalted Good character; you are the guy who looks at the Lawful Good Monk/Paladin and would chastise them for being so sinful if you weren't too nice to mention it.
To me it really looks like people would argue anything to make it invalid just because VoP is clearly broken if coupled with DCFS. You are drawing a link between Exalted Good and Lawful Good that isn't apparent at all in BoED. Chaotic Good is being Robin Hood. There's nothing impossible, for a Good person with high morale standards, to wake up one day and say "Oh **** it! From now on I'm gonna do things my way no matter what my superiors think about it." Such a behavior wouldn't be Evil, it would be Chaotic. You don't stop being Good, you just want more liberty and you have plenty of (RP) reasons for that. For example: you don't agree with the current choices made by your hierarchy and you think the world would be a better place if only they listened to you. You're angry at them and you decide to act. There's nothing Evil in that, you're still the same Good person with high morale standards. Only you're fed up.

As for the Time Stop thing, I would say that D&D calls "Gods" creatures with 40+ HDs. God (as in the Christian God) doesn't exist in their world, only powerful (with different levels) creatures. To me, even if a creature has more than 40 HDs, that doesn't enable it to chime in a Time Stop. That's something only a real God (as in the Christian God) could do.

[OldTrees1]

Nice to know there's reasonable people online. As for the second part of your post, that depends: if the VoP benefits are bestowed on your character by the Good Powers that Be, then divine intervention vs. Time Stop must be explained; if the VoP benefits are a result of a mortal mind, body, and soul reacting to their being's Exalted Good status, then no divine intervention argument needs to be made. It comes down to whether the changes come from within your being or from the out-of-body universe...but either way, the ultimate result is that you lose your powers, so the actual answer is almost completely irrelevant.
There is a third option of "by the Good that Be" since the universe is not bound to initiative order like Beings/Powers are. :smallbiggrin:

Sidenote: That just made me think of a Wizard casting Time Stop and then walking into a Dead Magic Zone/Anti Magic Field as a test.

[AvatarVecna]

To me it really looks like people would argue anything to make it invalid just because VoP is clearly broken if coupled with DCFS. You are drawing a link between Exalted Good and Lawful Good that isn't apparent at all in BoED. Chaotic Good is being Robin Hood. There's nothing impossible, for a Good person with high morale standards, to wake up one day and say "Oh **** it! From now on I'm gonna do things my way no matter what my superiors think about it." Such a behavior wouldn't be Evil, it would be Chaotic. You don't stop being Good, you just want more liberty and you have plenty of (RP) reasons for that. For example: you don't agree with the current choices made by your hierarchy and you think the world would be a better place if only they listened to you. You're angry at them and you decide to act. There's nothing Evil in that, you're still the same Good person with high morale standards. Only you're fed up.

As for the Time Stop thing, I would say that D&D calls "Gods" creatures with 40+ HDs. God (as in the Christian God) doesn't exist in their world, only powerful (with different levels) creatures. To me, even if a creature has more than 40 HDs, that doesn't enable it to chime in a Time Stop. That's something only a real God (as in the Christian God) could do.

It was only an example; I used Monk and Paladin because they tend to have the stricter moral codes, which made for a good comparison with the even stricter Exalted Good code. The Vow of Poverty--hell, the entire Vow feat line--is about making the world a better place by being an example. The benefits you receive from the feat are from fulfilling that calling so well, that the Powers That Be bless you with holy power. Sacrificing that power for practicalities sake would still be doing Good, but it would also be intentionally and willingly giving up your position as an example. The Vow feats are about sacrificing practicality to uphold virtues for their own sake. And this still doesn't change the fact that, however you arrive at this method, you are intentionally giving up a divine gift by embracing the power of the Abyss.

The ends do not justify the means. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Being Exalted means being better than that, standing by the ideals you have literally sworn to uphold. The fantastical powers you have been granted have only been granted to you because you're better than that; if you fail to continue being better than that, you lose the powers. That is what my ruling would be, regardless of the alignment of the PC in question. You are supposed to be better than that, you're supposed to set the example. You are failing to set the example through your desire and willingness to sacrifice that ideal for practicalities sake.

As for the Time Stop thing: a deity of Time would see this coming weeks in advance and could stop it. As for acting in a Time Stop, I say again: the Epic Level Handbook has rules for making Time Stop into a SR: Yes spell, which would, in fact, allow a deity to chime in inside a Time Stop. If nothing else, Rule 0 can explain it: they're a deity, you're not. Your magic is not powerful enough to stop them from doing precisely whatever the **** they want.

[Segev]

If it wouldn't unbalance my party (a case-by-case judgment), I would permit a player to DCS his Exalted feats. It would be a Big Deal. This is the corruption of one of the Best of the Best, the True and Noble Elect. The pure and innocent and virtuous willingly sacrificing their virtue for power. There is so much plot potential there.

[Pippin]

The ends do not justify the means. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Being Exalted means being better than that, standing by the ideals you have literally sworn to uphold. The fantastical powers you have been granted have only been granted to you because you're better than that; if you fail to continue being better than that, you lose the powers. That is what my ruling would be, regardless of the alignment of the PC in question. You are supposed to be better than that, you're supposed to set the example. You are failing to set the example through your desire and willingness to sacrifice that ideal for practicalities sake.
Your first two sentences imply that the PC is doing something Evil, but again, he's not :smallsigh:


As for the Time Stop thing: a deity of Time would see this coming weeks in advance and could stop it. As for acting in a Time Stop, I say again: the Epic Level Handbook has rules for making Time Stop into a SR: Yes spell, which would, in fact, allow a deity to chime in inside a Time Stop. If nothing else, Rule 0 can explain it: they're a deity, you're not. Your magic is not powerful enough to stop them from doing precisely whatever the **** they want.
It's a variant rule though, and it seems to be completely ignoring the fact that Time Stop doesn't actually stop time, but rather grants virtually infinite speed to the caster. Though I do not necessarily disagree with the possible need to nerf this spell, this nerf doesn't make sense as it allows Spell Resistance while the description of Time Stop clearly indicates that it doesn't affect other people in any way!

A: Ok I cast Time Stop!
B: Wait, there is this variant rule. Lemme roll a die for SR.
A: Wat? How even...
B: There! I resisted, so "You speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen" is applied to me too.
A: Uh...

:smallsigh:

As for deities of Time, I've never read about those. Would you have a reference?

[Malimar]

Shuffling level and class bonus feats are fine. Shuffling Elder Evil and item location feats are on the border, you'll probably get watched more closely and you can only benefit once (you can't follow an Elder Evil, shuffle the feats, and then follow another Elder Evil). Racial proficiencies and class armor/weapon proficiencies are out, and you could shuffle heroics but it would disappear when heroics does. VoP feats can't be shuffled largely for the same reasons Curmudgeon gives, if I allowed VoP.

Basically this. I like DCS, I think it's neat and mildly clever and not extremely abusable. I think it's pretty clearly within the intended use of the spells when used on your regular feats, and pretty clearly outside the intended use of the spells when used on things like racial proficiencies.

I also allow feat retraining on level-up and psychic reformation, so DCS is only really useful for trading your early feats for things you qualify for at higher levels.

[AvatarVecna]

Your first two sentences imply that the PC is doing something Evil, but again, he's not :smallsigh:


It's a variant rule though, and it seems to be completely ignoring the fact that Time Stop doesn't actually stop time, but rather grants virtually infinite speed to the caster. Though I do not necessarily disagree with the possible need to nerf this spell, this nerf doesn't make sense as it allows Spell Resistance while the description of Time Stop clearly indicates that it doesn't affect other people in any way!

A: Ok I cast Time Stop!
B: Wait, there is this variant rule. Lemme roll a die for SR.
A: Wat? How even...
B: There! I resisted, so "You speed up so greatly that all other creatures seem frozen" is applied to me too.
A: Uh...

:smallsigh:

As for deities of Time, I've never read about those. Would you have a reference?

It's not about being Evil, it's about being less that the absolute best. That's what being Exalted Good is, and deciding to sacrifice the ideals that made you Exalted Good makes you not be Exalted Good anymore...disqualifying you for the feat. You can be Exalted good without having those kinds of ideals...but those kinds of ideals form the backbone of the Vow feats. For the Vow of Poverty, you are forcing yourself to be the literal embodiment of the virtue of charity (or whatever equivalent virtue your character's faith has); by fully intending to give up the power being said living embodiment has granted you for personal power (however you intend to use that power), you are failing to continue being the living embodiment of that virtue, and you thus lose the benefits of being that living embodiment. It's not about being Evil, it's about not being perfectly Good in the way the Vow requires.

Also, fair enough about the Time Stop variant rule, it's a weird way to nerf the spell (although it's definitely a spell in need of a nerf).

As for deities of time...although I've never read the rules on this myself (due to them not being relevant to my games, since statting deities is pointless outside of high epic), I have been lead to understand that a deity has something like "Domain Sense", where they are informed weeks in advance of anything that would fall within their divine domain. Under such rules, a deity of Time (like Cronos/Saturn from Greek/Roman mythology) would be aware of anybody using Time magic or travelling through time. While I don't know what the exact rule is, I'm sure there's someone around here who knows it much better than I do.

EDIT: TBH, this is the whole problem of the Exalted feats in a nutshell: one of the requirements (by RAW) is a semi-Alignment (open to RAI) that is basically defined as being "gooder than good" (open to RAI). There's a ridiculously wide field of interpretations that could go into that, and there's extremists for each side of the argument.

[frogglesmash]

As for deities of time...although I've never read the rules on this myself (due to them not being relevant to my games, since statting deities is pointless outside of high epic), I have been lead to understand that a deity has something like "Domain Sense", where they are informed weeks in advance of anything that would fall within their divine domain. Under such rules, a deity of Time (like Cronos/Saturn from Greek/Roman mythology) would be aware of anybody using Time magic or travelling through time. While I don't know what the exact rule is, I'm sure there's someone around here who knows it much better than I do.

Though this wouldn't really fall under the jurisdiction of a time god when we consider what Pippin pointed out about timestop technically just being haste on steroids.

[Red Fel]

Your first two sentences imply that the PC is doing something Evil, but again, he's not :smallsigh:

Actually, it's not quite that simple. When you introduce Exalted feats and such, you acknowledge that there is a Good beyond Good. Things which would not be Evil for a regular Good person can effectively be Evil for an Exalted person, simply because Exalted is held to that much higher a standard.

The feats you receive for VoP symbolize the rewards of righteousness, virtue, and humility granted to one who embodies those values. To then sacrifice those honors in favor of practical power is to spit in the face of that which you represent. Although it is not Evil by traditional standards, it is a somewhat blasphemous thing to do with these sacred gifts. It would be like receiving a blessed sacramental object from a religious leader, pawning it for its metal value, and using that to buy a cool new sword. Normal adventurers can do that (and frequently do), but someone who holds sanctity as paramount couldn't do that within the confines of his values.


As for deities of Time, I've never read about those. Would you have a reference?

If memory serves, there are several deities with the Time Domain, including Grumbar (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Grumbar) and Labelas Enoreth (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Labelas_Enoreth) in Forgotten Realms, and Cyndor (http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Cyndor) in Greyhawk. There is also the Celerity Domain, which seems related, and belongs to Ehlonna, Fharlanghn, Olidammara, Xan Yae, and Zuoken.

But basically, any deity whose portfolio (not to be confused with domain) includes Time would have a natural predictive sense for when magic was going to be used which involved or disrupted time.

[GilesTheCleric]

As for deities of Time, I've never read about those. Would you have a reference?

So far I've got:

Grumbar, FaP 222, 96, FRCS 234, FRCSWE 6, Cavern, Earth, Metal, Time, Faerunian Pantheon


Labelas Enoreth, FaP 128, FRCS 238, FRCSWE 7, Chaos, Elf, Good, Knowledge, Time, Elven Pantheon


Chronepsis, Drac 31, 33, Death, Dragon, Knowledge, Fate, Planning, Time, Draconic Pantheon


They should all have time in their portfolios if they have the time domain. There's probably some other deities that also have it, but I haven't logged those yet and am too lazy to open up one of my other deity lists.

Edit: Evil'd by Red Fel

[Rubik]

It is clearly TO to me.Using two paired spells which are clearly written to do exactly as they do is "theoretical"? How does THAT make sense?


Especially since it is usually used as finite iterations of an infinite loop or to create time paradox builds (I don't like Time Paradox builds). However I don't allow Tier 1-2 classes to perform above Tier 3 at my table so ...Do you mean using temporary effects (such as Heroics) to gain permanent feats? Sorry, but Heroics is granting the feat which is changed using the DCFS, and when Heroics runs out, the feat disappears, regardless of what it's changed into, so it's not even T.O., because it doesn't work.

[Segev]

Actually, it's not quite that simple. When you introduce Exalted feats and such, you acknowledge that there is a Good beyond Good. Things which would not be Evil for a regular Good person can effectively be Evil for an Exalted person, simply because Exalted is held to that much higher a standard.

I disagree. "Exalted Good" isn't "beyond Good;" it's just the tippy-top of the most pure good. Good people can take neutral or even somewhat evil actions (every now and again), either because they feel badly about it later (and strive to not do it again) or because it really, honestly, no-kidding-I-mean-it for "the greater good." That is, it's a small wrong, but it achieve what they think is so much better for all involved that it's "worth it." Or at least, they keep telling themselves so.

"Exalted Good" is uncompromising. While neutral actions are acceptable, they are only so when they don't cause good actions to be sacrificed. If something is even slightly morally questionable, it's not Exalted Good. They strive for perfection in pursuing what is right, and consider even inaction to be unacceptable if there's an action that is just slightly more beneficial to others (without, obviously, leading to more harm to still others who are innocent).

It's not "Gooder than Good." It's just "Uncompromising Good."

[WeaselGuy]

I've chimed in on the Lord Drako thread about the RAWality of an Exalted DCFS, so I won't repeat myself on that front. With regards to allowing it at my table, the short answer is yes.

The slightly longer answer is still yes, but with a caveat. That being, someone in the party has to have the spells readily available and be willing to cast them on your behalf, and since it costs XP, you would need to pay a commensurate amount (unless you yourself are the caster, in which case you can whittle down your own XP all you want).

Just my 2c worth.

[Taelas]

When did people get the idea that Exalted characters were so "uncompromisingly" Good? Exalted characters (which I would define as characters with [Exalted] feats) have one limit (which they share with the Paladin): they lose all benefits [of their Exalted feats] if they willingly commit an Evil act. Specific Exalted feats may have stricter limits, but not all of them do. As far as I am aware, BoED speaks mostly on how to portray a Good character to set them apart from Neutral characters, not how to be some archetype of Goodness beyond even Paladins that ordinary people cannot ever aspire to.

I must be missing something here. :smallconfused:

[OldTrees1]

Using two paired spells which are clearly written to do exactly as they do is "theoretical"? How does THAT make sense?

Do you mean using temporary effects (such as Heroics) to gain permanent feats? Sorry, but Heroics is granting the feat which is changed using the DCFS, and when Heroics runs out, the feat disappears, regardless of what it's changed into, so it's not even T.O., because it doesn't work.

As you well know TO is that which is not PO. Just because it is RAI does not make it not TO (although I seriously doubt the authors intended them to be cast as a pair to change an existing feat). It is merely another piece of evidence about WotC on an ever growing pile. This is because the Theoretical in TO refers to it only being a thought exercise since it is not allows at the table.

My 2 concerns with the shuffle which make me exclude it from PO at my table (and thus, by definition, it becomes TO) are: The Time Paradox builds and the Infinite Loops.

I don't care which of the proposed infinite loops(Heroics, Otyugh Hole, Feat granting items, ...) that you think work. If you don't think any of them work then that is not my problem.

The other problem I have is the Time Paradox builds. This is when the shuffle is used to swap in a feat that could not have been there already.

[AvatarVecna]

When did people get the idea that Exalted characters were so "uncompromisingly" Good? Exalted characters (which I would define as characters with [Exalted] feats) have one limit (which they share with the Paladin): they lose all benefits [of their Exalted feats] if they willingly commit an Evil act. Specific Exalted feats may have stricter limits, but not all of them do. As far as I am aware, BoED speaks mostly on how to portray a Good character to set them apart from Neutral characters, not how to be some archetype of Goodness beyond even Paladins that ordinary people cannot ever aspire to.

I must be missing something here. :smallconfused:

The idea comes from reading something other than just the feats available for viewing online via the Site That Shall Not Be Named.


Exalted Feats

This book introduces a new type of feat: the exalted feat. Only intelligent characters of good alignment and the highest moral standards can acquire exalted feats, and only as a gift from powerful agents of good--deities, celestials, or similar creatures. These feats are thus supernatural in nature (rather than being extraordinary abilities, as most feats are).

A character must have the DM's permisson to take an exalted feat. In many cases, a ritual must be performed; often, this simply amounts to a character swearing a sacred vow, for example, in the presense of a celestial being. A character who willing and willfully commits an evil act loses all benefits from all his exalted feats. She regains these benefits if she atones for her violations.

The second bolding specifies that any evil act will lose your Exalted status, and thus your Exalted feats. Thus, if your paragon of Charity (Vow of Poverty character) who has neither the Vow of Nonviolence nor the Vow of Peace murders someone in cold blood for no particular reason other than they wanted to, they automatically lose all benefits of all their exalted feats, even if that evil act isn't deemed sufficiently evil enough to change their alignment.

Where our view of it being uncompromising is coming from is the first bolded part. In the D&D world, you can be a good person, but that's not the same as being a Good person, and that's not the same as being a GOOD person. Exalted characters are so good that they get gifts of power from celestials just for being such awesome examples of goodness.

My problem with using DCS to trade away VoP feats is two-fold: firstly, Vow of Poverty is about giving up something you'd be better off having to serve as an extreme example of Charity for others; by trading away the divine gift you've been granted in exchange for that sacrifice so that you can profit from it, you not only cheapen and pervert the sacrifice, you spit in the face of the very idea (I would have less problem with trading away the benefits these feats were granted by the Vow of Peace, for example, although I'd still have a bit of a problem with it); secondly, the way you're trading them away is by literally embracing the power of the Abyss. It may not have Evil written on the tin, and I wouldn't so much as nudge your alignment southwards unless you were doing it for evil reasons, but the idea of giving up a divine gift to embrace the power of demons, however technically-not-Evil it may be, is enough in my eyes to lose your Exalted status--and thus, your Exalted feats.

Is this RAW? Technically no, because the RAW of Exalted Good is very poorly defined, and is left almost entirely up to DM judgement. In this DM's opinion, however, embracing the power of demons to give up your divine gift is going over the line I would want my Exalted players to walk.

EDIT: To be clear, I have no problem with the DCS itself: as long as it isn't combined with arbirtrarily high/infinte XP/gold/feats tricks, it's fairly balanced. I'm also not saying that allowing DCS to work on Vow of Poverty bonus feats is unbalanced, because Vow of Poverty is pretty low-op. My argument is purely that the only way it works is by twisting the RAI to an interpretation that works with it: DCS and VoP don't mix together because that's not how the system is supposed to work. That there's technically nothing in the rules explicitly preventing it (outside of DM judgement) just means that this particular rules combo wasn't considered when either VoP or EtDC/StDC were written. If WotC had defined Exalted better, or had made demonic heritage spells naturally evil (as they have in almost literally every other aspect of demonic heritage in the system), this wouldn't work. As it is, it's left up to the individual DM to decide if they'd allow this based on interpreting the rules. And my interpretation is that it doesn't.

[ExLibrisMortis]

FTFY.
No, you did not.

Just because you broke a divine law when the gods weren't looking doesn't mean they can't tell you broke the divine law
You did not break divine law, and even if you did, VoP is not a divine thing per sé - see below. But that is not the point. The point is that gods can't interfere in a time stop.

and doesn't mean they won't punish you for it.
I mentioned that they might, but they have no reason to.

And that's assuming that deities have no way of observing and/or affecting those in a Time Stop.
They don't have a way to affect it, but they do observe it.

Portfolio sense and alter reality can do anything - they are equivalent to DM fiat. For that reason, I'm not considering it here. It doesn't add anything beyond DM fiat itself - we already knew the DM could do anything.

Of course, that would be ridiculous: it's not like there's rules for epic, super-powerful beings to straight-up ignore Time Stop, right? Well, other than those rules for making Time Stop a SR: Yes spell in the Epic Level Handbook.
Other than variant rules, there is no way to ignore time stop.

Or if there's any Good deities of Time, who would see this cow poo coming.
DM fiat always works, that's not much of an argument.

And your example? Thinking those kinds of things, believing those kinds of things, carrying out actions based on those kinds of things would automatically lose you your Exalted status in one of my games.
These are the rules on losing exalted feats:

A character who willingly and willfully commits an evil act loses all benefits from all his exalted feats.
These are the rules on losing VoP:

Special: To fulfill your vow, you must not own or use any material possessions, with the following exceptions: You may carry and use ordinary (neither magic nor masterwork) simple weapons, usually just a quarterstaff that serves as a walking stick. You may wear simple clothes (usually just a homespun robe, possibly also including a hat and sandals) with no magical properties. You may carry enough food to sustain you for one day in a simple (nonmagic) sack or bag. You may carry and use a spell component pouch. You may not use any magic item of any sort, though you can benefit from magic items used on your behalf—you can drink a potion of cure serious wounds a friend gives you, receive a spell cast from a wand, scroll, or staff, or ride on your companion’s ebony fly. You may not, however, “borrow” a cloak of resistance or any other magic item from a companion for even a single round, nor may you yourself cast a spell from a scroll, wand, or staff.
If you break your vow, you immediately and irrevocably lose the benefit of this feat. You may not take another feat to replace it.
By these rules, you can conclude the following:
* DCS can't cause you to lose exalted feat benefits. It is neither evil nor a form of wealth.
* Abandoning your vow can't cause you to lose exalted feat benefits. Rethinking your life is not evil, and it is not a form of wealth.

Arguably, DCS, along with psychic reformation and retraining rules, are the only RAW ways to abandon a vow without breaking it. It's better to replace the feat, than to do something evil to lose it.

You are trying to profit off the blessings of the universe.
VoP benefits are 'spiritual benefits'. Where those benefits come from is left vague. They could easily come from personal strength of conviction.
By RAW, VoP and DCS work fine together. If you don't want to make VoP a way to buy feats, whether for balance reasons or fluff reasons, you have to change it by hourerule. You don't break out gods to smite people who try, that's just being mean (and decidedly non-good) to your players.


Not trying to say you're in the wrong to rule the way you do, but I got a little annoyed at how you dismissed my example, which I think is perfectly functional (and likely to happen, because VoP is underpowered). Don't forget that the good deities, if (by RAW) they had anything to do with VoP benefits, would forgive you for not being able to live according to the vow, as long as you do it nicely. If you lived as ascetic for 20 levels, they would not mind if you got 11 bonus feats out of it (and you're still out of 760k cash, hardly a small sacrifice).

You can always refluff DCS to use eladrin heritage. That's as fair a houserule as any.

[Jowgen]

Exalted. Oh you beautiful mess of a concept. *enjoys a cup of tea as the thread burns* :smallbiggrin:

[frogglesmash]

The second bolding specifies that any evil act will lose your Exalted status, and thus your Exalted feats.

By the RAW you quoted that's not strictly true. It only says you lose the benefits of those feats and since "benefits" has it's own heading in any given feat description it's pretty unambiguous as to what the text is refering. What this means is that while it may be true that using, or planning to use the Dark Chaos Shuffle might remove your exalted status this only renders the relevant feats inert and as such it's still a valid target for the shuffle.

[AvatarVecna]

By the RAW you quoted that's not strictly true. It only says you lose the benefits of those feats and since "benefits" has it's own heading in any given feat description it's pretty unambiguous as to what the text is refering. What this means is that while it may be true that using, or planning to use the Dark Chaos Shuffle might remove your exalted status this only renders the relevant feats inert and as such it's still a valid target for the shuffle.

Fair enough, you can still DCS the original VoP feat away. The bonus feats you gained as a benefit of VoP, however, cannot be DCS'd away, since you lose them.

[Taelas]

The idea comes from reading something other than just the feats available for viewing online via the Site That Shall Not Be Named.
... I'm trying hard not to take that as an insult. :smallannoyed: I have read the book, if not in excruciating detail. (I frankly don't care much for what I have read, mechanics-wise. I mean, ravages? Really, WotC? Really?) I do not just read the feat descriptions online.


Where our view of it being uncompromising is coming from is the first bolded part. In the D&D world, you can be a good person, but that's not the same as being a Good person, and that's not the same as being a GOOD person. Exalted characters are so good that they get gifts of power from celestials just for being such awesome examples of goodness.
No, this is just not true. It is not a gift that they get "just" for being über-Good. It is a feat that they take, the same as any other. (That the feats are called gifts is just fluff: it doesn't mean anything in game mechanical terms.) In fact, none of the Exalted feats have alignment as a prerequisite. By RAW, Evil people can take them. (They will lose the benefit if they commit an Evil act, but you are not specifically required to commit Evil acts to be of an Evil alignment--though it definitely helps.) This could even be within RAI: an Evil character seeking redemption could take an Exalted feat to better reflect that, for example.

You can always insist your character is "of the highest moral standards", and it is up to the DM whether or not he accepts it, so that specific "requirement" is essentially meaningless, as it will require the DM's adjudication no matter what -- and we can't presume to know how a given DM will react.


My problem with using DCS to trade away VoP feats is two-fold: firstly, Vow of Poverty is about giving up something you'd be better off having to serve as an extreme example of Charity for others; by trading away the divine gift you've been granted in exchange for that sacrifice so that you can profit from it, you not only cheapen and pervert the sacrifice, you spit in the face of the very idea (I would have less problem with trading away the benefits these feats were granted by the Vow of Peace, for example, although I'd still have a bit of a problem with it); secondly, the way you're trading them away is by literally embracing the power of the Abyss. It may not have Evil written on the tin, and I wouldn't so much as nudge your alignment southwards unless you were doing it for evil reasons, but the idea of giving up a divine gift to embrace the power of demons, however technically-not-Evil it may be, is enough in my eyes to lose your Exalted status--and thus, your Exalted feats.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't allow this use of the DCS any more than you would. Just for clarification. But there is nothing in the actual rules preventing it.


Is this RAW? Technically no, because the RAW of Exalted Good is very poorly defined, and is left almost entirely up to DM judgement. In this DM's opinion, however, embracing the power of demons to give up your divine gift is going over the line I would want my Exalted players to walk.
Which doesn't mean much, I'm afraid. It's certainly also the stance I would take, but that doesn't automatically disqualify the maneuver by the RAW.


EDIT: To be clear, I have no problem with the DCS itself: as long as it isn't combined with arbirtrarily high/infinte XP/gold/feats tricks, it's fairly balanced. I'm also not saying that allowing DCS to work on Vow of Poverty bonus feats is unbalanced, because Vow of Poverty is pretty low-op. My argument is purely that the only way it works is by twisting the RAI to an interpretation that works with it: DCS and VoP don't mix together because that's not how the system is supposed to work. That there's technically nothing in the rules explicitly preventing it (outside of DM judgement) just means that this particular rules combo wasn't considered when either VoP or EtDC/StDC were written. If WotC had defined Exalted better, or had made demonic heritage spells naturally evil (as they have in almost literally every other aspect of demonic heritage in the system), this wouldn't work. As it is, it's left up to the individual DM to decide if they'd allow this based on interpreting the rules. And my interpretation is that it doesn't.
Your interpretation is all fine and good, and for the most part, I fully agree with it. But the fact that it wasn't considered by the designers mean nothing in the bigger scheme of things.

[Emperor Tippy]

RAW? It's pretty clearly rules legal infinite feats.

Personally? If the feats aren't temporary I allow it. That means class bonus feats, racial bonus feats, feats granted from locations, and feats granted from other similar things that are permanent (Elder Evils as one such example) are fine to turn into whatever other feats you want. Fluff wise it is using the raw power of Chaos (one of the fundamental forces in D&D) to sacrifice something for Chaotic power (time put in training, a gods favor, whatever; life experience basically) and then later using that raw power of Chaos that you now possess (along with a little something personal) to shape said Chaos into what you desire.

From a practical stand point, it allows players to build characters that suit their desired idea much easier and makes it possible to keep more characters viable for longer while not actually significantly increasing power levels at the end of the day.

[AvatarVecna]

No, you did not.

You did not break divine law, and even if you did, VoP is not a divine thing per sé - see below. But that is not the point. The point is that gods can't interfere in a time stop.

I mentioned that they might, but they have no reason to.

They don't have a way to affect it, but they do observe it.

Portfolio sense and alter reality can do anything - they are equivalent to DM fiat. For that reason, I'm not considering it here. It doesn't add anything beyond DM fiat itself - we already knew the DM could do anything.

Other than variant rules, there is no way to ignore time stop.

DM fiat always works, that's not much of an argument.

These are the rules on losing exalted feats:

These are the rules on losing VoP:

By these rules, you can conclude the following:
* DCS can't cause you to lose exalted feat benefits. It is neither evil nor a form of wealth.
* Abandoning your vow can't cause you to lose exalted feat benefits. Rethinking your life is not evil, and it is not a form of wealth.

Arguably, DCS, along with psychic reformation and retraining rules, are the only RAW ways to abandon a vow without breaking it. It's better to replace the feat, than to do something evil to lose it.

VoP benefits are 'spiritual benefits'. Where those benefits come from is left vague. They could easily come from personal strength of conviction.
By RAW, VoP and DCS work fine together. If you don't want to make VoP a way to buy feats, whether for balance reasons or fluff reasons, you have to change it by hourerule. You don't break out gods to smite people who try, that's just being mean (and decidedly non-good) to your players.


Not trying to say you're in the wrong to rule the way you do, but I got a little annoyed at how you dismissed my example, which I think is perfectly functional (and likely to happen, because VoP is underpowered). Don't forget that the good deities, if (by RAW) they had anything to do with VoP benefits, would forgive you for not being able to live according to the vow, as long as you do it nicely. If you lived as ascetic for 20 levels, they would not mind if you got 11 bonus feats out of it (and you're still out of 760k cash, hardly a small sacrifice).

You can always refluff DCS to use eladrin heritage. That's as fair a houserule as any.

1. Exalted feats can only be gained as gifts from paragons of Goodness, like deities and celestials (as is stated in the quote I posted in post #46).

2. The Vow feats (including Vow of Poverty) are a vow, a sworn oath, a promise, a contract between you and a paragon of Goodness. Regardless of whether they're LG, NG, or CG, they are going to care far more about you upholding the spirit of the agreement than they are about you upholding the letter of the agreement. Using the letter of the agreement to get around the spirit isn't necessarily evil, but because the agreement was between you an a paragon of Goodness, you get held to that higher standard.

3. The rule you quoted on losing exalted feats is for all exalted feats in general: being evil, even for a second, voids all your agreements with paragons of Goodness. As I mentioned in my previous big post, selling your VoP benefits for power goes against everything the Vow of Poverty is supposed to be about. That is absolutely RAI, rather than RAW, but RAW isn't the end-all be-all it's sometimes made out to be.

4. I agree that the deities would forgive you for not living up to the vow, but failing to live up to vow (including by intentionally deciding to abandon it) means you lose the benefits. The only situation I've been able to come up with where DCS could potentially work with VoP is one where your character was completely uninvolved in the process of losing the bonus feats (like if the less-than-scrupulous party wizard/cleric/whatever decided to cast both spells on you several times), and even then, your ex-VoP character might try to seek out Atonement or retraining.

5. I'm sorry for being as offensive as I was; there's been a lot of RAW vs. RAI stuff on weird RAW tricks lately, and while I love twisting the rules as much as the next guy, I've always viewed the BoED as something meant more for in-depth roleplaying with some mechanical benefits rather than another splatbook to have every ounce of optimization squeezed out of it; combine that with my general shrinking tolerance for questions like these looking for an excuse to use some broken combo, and I kinda snapped. You (probably) didn't deserve that, and I'm sorry.

[AvatarVecna]

... I'm trying hard not to take that as an insult. :smallannoyed: I have read the book, if not in excruciating detail. (I frankly don't care much for what I have read, mechanics-wise. I mean, ravages? Really, WotC? Really?) I do not just read the feat descriptions online.

Then I must apologize to you as well. I've been rather on edge because of threads and questions like this, but you don't deserve to get the bad end of my attitude. I'm sorry.

[ExLibrisMortis]

5. I'm sorry for being as offensive as I was; there's been a lot of RAW vs. RAI stuff on weird RAW tricks lately, and while I love twisting the rules as much as the next guy, I've always viewed the BoED as something meant more for in-depth roleplaying with some mechanical benefits rather than another splatbook to have every ounce of optimization squeezed out of it; combine that with my general shrinking tolerance for questions like these looking for an excuse to use some broken combo, and I kinda snapped. You (probably) didn't deserve that, and I'm sorry.
I was a bit snappy myself, no harm done :smallsmile:. Controversial issues abound - one of my big pet peeves is how D&D treats alignment, because it's so static and dogmatic (but at the same time not straightforward or consistent), and anthroprocentric to boot. I prefer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19295439&postcount=17) a more political (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19263956&postcount=2) attitude to alignment.

BoED is definitely a book for roleplaying, but it's also disfunctional seven heavens from Celestia. Vow of Abstinence can't protect against ingested poisons, and Vow of Peace barbarian überchargers are a thing (as long as you stick to fighting [evil] creatures). I guess it's a matter of whether you try to make the book-suggested 'good' work, or your own value of 'good'.

[StreamOfTheSky]

To me, it's one of those few things that is undeniably, absolutely, 100% for-sure TO.
I'd never allow it in any game I ran, ever, and would second guess allowing a player to join if he even asked if he could use it. If he thinks something that broken might be "ok," I probably don't want him in my game.

EDIT: I am extremely lenient on feat retraining anyway. Any level-up you can switch them around for free, as long as you can still construct a level-by-level breakdown that works and meets requirements of other feats on time. If I sense it's being abused just to customize for the upcoming area, I might crack down, and say as much. The leniency exists because it's hard to plan characters several levels in advance and sometimes things don't work out like you thought, and I'd rather they reconfigure their existing character than make a new one.