No one here to mourn Roy with me?

[GolemsVoice]

Aw,come on! The Forum bursts with threads about the most minor moves people make, but nobody mourns poor Roy? Nobody speculates whether he will be resurected or not? Is there nobody to light up a candle for him, is there no whispered prayer to guide him to what will follow (though I can imagine Roy discussing with several Outsiders, because it's a lawful afterlife, and everything must be in order)?

Roy, I hope you will live again to bring justice, lawfulness and general MBA-wothy IQ into the world once more!

[kerberos]

Aw,come on! The Forum bursts with threads about the most minor moves people make, but nobody mourns poor Roy? Nobody speculates whether he will be resurected or not? Is there nobody to light up a candle for him, is there no whispered prayer to guide him to what will follow (though I can imagine Roy discussing with several Outsiders, because it's a lawful afterlife, and everything must be in order)?

Roy, I hope you will live again to bring justice, lawfulness and general MBA-wothy IQ into the world once more!
Ehm, don't you think mourning him is a bit premature? He's not dead you know.

[Hinton]

Ehm, don't you think mourning him is a bit premature? He's not dead you know.

Technically, he is since he's got the X's for eyes.

Sure, he may not be out of the story completely and there's always ways to bring him back, but he's definitely deceased. He is no more. He has shuffled off the mortal coil.

Yeah, I'm definitely mourning Roy today.

[Nekulor]

I see a true resurrection in his future.

[Threeshades]

He's dead. But probably not for long. Or his player will make a new character.

Both ways I think are okay.

[lunatic113]

ROY! NOOOO! *cries*

Poor Roy with X's for eyes. :(

[Zenthar]

It's good he is dead. Would have been VERY lame if Xykon wouldn't have killed him. Yay, Roy is dead! Long live Xykon! (unlive?)

[Assassinfox]

I'm just cheering because the giant took down the character shields. :smalltongue:

Why'd Celia give Roy a ridiculously tough booty talisman? Judging from how quickly he hit the ground, it wouldn't have helped anyway by the time he thought of it, but he could've at least had a chance depending on how quickly she could respond.

[GolemsVoice]

That's what I was trying to say: There are very few people who are actually upset about Roy's dead. Think about what would have happened if Belkar had died?
And, yeah, mourning him since he is dead at the moment. I also know that this is not something that is permanent in DnD, but he died. That is all that matters.
But instead, people appreciate it, or just don't care.

[Cyborg Pirate]

That's what I was trying to say: There are very few people who are actually upset about Roy's dead. Think about what would have happened if Belkar had died?
And, yeah, mourning him since he is dead at the moment. I also know that this is not something that is permanent in DnD, but he died. That is all that matters.
But instead, people appreciate it, or just don't care.

Actually, judging by the replies in the comic thread, lots of people Do care about his death. I know I do.

But, I also like to mourn in silence. :smallredface:

[sun_tzu]

While the availability of resurrection spells has kept it from ruining my day, Roy's death was nevertheless a kick in the gut for me.
*sob:smallfrown: *

[Shapechanger]

I'm too busy being surprised. I just read the comic and it took me a moment to realize that, oh crap, he's dead! I really expected him to get out of it somehow, that or barely survive the fall.

[Assassinfox]

That's what I was trying to say: There are very few people who are actually upset about Roy's dead. Think about what would have happened if Belkar had died?

C'mon, Roy was a grumpy grump. He could use a vacation in Celestia. :smalltongue:

And I might react the same way if Belkar dies, as long as it's not something ridiculous like "dragon pieces fall out of the sky and smother him!"

[Cleverdan22]

I'm mourning Roy. He was, in fact, a good leader. I posted this in the comic thread:
Well, my predictions are this. Everyone from the party will have to chip in all their gold, but they won't have enough for a resurrection spell, so they'll have to go on a quest to get enough.

It would be cool if that happened. But I miss Roy!

[Sucrose]

His deadpan wit was actually one of the funniest things in the comic for me.
Good night, warrior; may the angels sing thee to thy rest.:smallfrown:

[Om]

That's what I was trying to say: There are very few people who are actually upset about Roy's dead.Because death means nothing in DnD or comics in general. As a concern it ranks right up there with losing your keys or wallet. Most speculation is not about how the party will cope with no Roy but rather about the wacky adventures he'll get up to in the afterlife or the DnD penalties for resurrection.

Death is not final and so there is no need to mourn. Frankly if it wasn't for the fact that its Roy I'd urge the Giant to keep Roy dead. That at least would be novel and would give rise to far more lamentation.

[Baalzebub]

Maybe some people here will not mourn Roy's death, but the other OOTS members will. Heck even Belkar will get angry because he was not the one who killed Roy.

[NeonRonin]

I personally am saddened by the (hopefully temporary) passing of Roy. This was not the way I wanted to start my Monday, but hopefully the next strip will shed light on what will happen from here on out.

To be brutally honest, these things do happen in any RPG- PCs die, at one point or another. And depending on the GM anything could happen, including bringing them back, but it doesn't make it any easier when the tragic event happens.

I'm just sorry there aren't more people sympathetic to poor Roy. Give the guy a break, a PC's gotta do what a PC's gotta do, right?

Come back soon, Roy. The Order needs you.

[Pancho Villa]

Good turn of the story. Lots of ways it could go from here - Roy comes back, Roy stays dead, whatever. But it all leads to interesting storytelling possibilities. Bravo.

[Finn Solomon]

His deadpan wit was actually one of the funniest things in the comic for me.


Aye, it's my favourite element of the entire series.

Come on Roy, do a Superman, not a Dumbledore.

[factotum]

Maybe some people here will not mourn Roy's death, but the other OOTS members will. Heck even Belkar will get angry because he was not the one who killed Roy.

It could be argued he caused his death by giving him the Ring of Jumping that allowed him to join Xykon on the dragon in the first place...OK, it's reaching a bit, but we know the Oracle was always tricksy.

[Jazzvader]

He's not dead yet just wait

[factotum]

He's not dead yet just wait

He's lying on the ground with Xs in his eyes--you have read strip 443, right?

[ShiningTed]

I got a shock when I saw those X's for eyes...

Roy is dead. Long live Roy.

[SteveMB]

Death is not final and so there is no need to mourn. Frankly if it wasn't for the fact that its Roy I'd urge the Giant to keep Roy dead. That at least would be novel and would give rise to far more lamentation.

The catch is that with various forms of Resurrection available, there needs to be a reason for a major character to stay dead (see the Shojo example).

That said, I expect a few obstacles before Roy rejoins the land of the living.

[Leeham]

Roy, ye shall be sorely missed. But, that was a pretty stupid way to die...:xykon:

[MoelVermillion]

I was actually surprised to see that Roy died, i hope he comes back but if not i guess it will give the order more reasons to go after Xykon.

[Luvlein]

I expected his death due to the oracle thingy and Belkar giving him that darned ring, so I am not surprised enough to be truly mourning. Roy was my favourite main character though.
Still, I am no friend of reviving dead main characters, so it would be ok for me if Roy would staydead.

[hanzo66]

Somehow I imagine the reaction of the party would be basically everyone else mourning and crying except for...


Belkar, who'd do a hairy-feet happy dance upon his corpse...

Miko, who'd go into a rant about how he got what he deserved/Justice prevailing or something...

Eugene, who'd probably bust his son's (or at least his ghost's) chops.

Aaand... Yeah...

[kerberos]

Technically, he is since he's got the X's for eyes.

Sure, he may not be out of the story completely and there's always ways to bring him back, but he's definitely deceased. He is no more. He has shuffled off the mortal coil.

Yeah, I'm definitely mourning Roy today.
I was about to point out that he clearly did not have X's for eyes, and so forth untill it occoured to me that there might be a new comic up. Duh! Well yes he does look quite dead. Proceed with the mourning then.

[Copacetic]

I was reading the comic when he hit the ground, then I thought " Wait something isn't right". I looked closer and closer untill, Blam! the X's for eyes!. poor Roy is dead. Wahhhhhh

[Almighty Salmon]

Ahh, poor roy..

He'll probably just get a ressurection though.

Personally, I'm eager to see how Elan reacts.

[pendell]

That's what I was trying to say: There are very few people who are actually upset about Roy's dead. Think about what would have happened if Belkar had died?
And, yeah, mourning him since he is dead at the moment. I also know that this is not something that is permanent in DnD, but he died. That is all that matters.
But instead, people appreciate it, or just don't care.

I appreciate it ... but a couple of points:

1) The story isn't told yet. I won't mourn Roy until the plot has worked itself out. As said, this is a world where Raise Dead, Resurrection, and True Resurrection all exist.

2) If it doesn't work out, I will say goodbye to this comic. I am NOT happy about this turn of events, although it was known and foreshadowed for some time, and I believe therefore there will be a happy ending of some sort after all. The Giant hasn't let me down yet.

3) Finally, and perhaps most importantly ... MOURN Roy? He's a stick-figure character in a comic book. I live in Virginia, and for those of you who have been following *real life* news, you know that we in Virginia are mourning the deaths of 33 flesh-n-blood human beings today. I haven't got tears to spare for a friggin' stick figure.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Sir_Rosh]

I know Roy looks like he fell quite far away from the battle, but don't the Hobgoblin Clerics have orders to animate the dead??

1...2....3....ZOMBIE ROY!!!

[Freelance Henchman]

It's only a flesh wound.

[PenguinMan98]

Drat she beat me to it.

ZOMBIE ROY!

[Haruki-kun]

Honestly? I hope he stays dead. But I doubt he will.

[jindra34]

HAruki: Care to join Roy?

[Nathander]

Roy is my favorite of the main OoTS (besides Durkon and Elan), so it was kind of a kick to the face when I saw he was dead. I don't mean that in a BAD way; I'm simply saying it surprised the crap out of me. I honestly hope that he's resurrected, but even if he isn't, I can say I don't necessarily mind; it is the Giant's story to tell, after all.

That being said, as for my two cents on the situation with Roy and Belkar..
While Belkar having been the one to give the Ring of Jumping may inadvertently show Belkar to be the cause of Roy's death, I honestly don't think it'll be the death that leads to Belkar being killed, as is the Oracle's prophecy. In all honesty, I expect Roy, Miko, and V to be killed [as seen, Roy already has been] and, if they all stay dead, for the Oracle to be Belkar's kill.

[Green Bean]

I will mourn Roy with you!

*starts singing Candle in the Wind loudly and off key*

[SteveMB]

That being said, as for my two cents on the situation with Roy and Belkar..
While Belkar having been the one to give the Ring of Jumping may inadvertently show Belkar to be the cause of Roy's death, I honestly don't think it'll be the death that leads to Belkar being killed, as is the Oracle's prophecy.
Huh? The Oracle didn't say anything about the death caused by Belkar from the list (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) leading to Belkar's own death. He made a couple of statements (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html) before that that would seem to imply that our homicidal halfling isn't long for this world, but no connection was drawn between the two.

[MReav]

Ah Roy, we drink to what will likely be your temporary shuffling off this mortal coil.

[Earendill]

Rich has a tradition of not doing what most people expect - read the arrow issue, the DK vs V issue and now the "how does Roy escape death" issue.

What scares me is the title "The first step is a doozy". I expect more deaths of major characters. Now that Belkar did cause the death of Roy (ring of jumping implied) - he can die too. Who will be the "second step, or the third..." ?

[Milandros]

Honestly? I hope he stays dead. But I doubt he will.

Eh? Considering the whole OoTS has been the story of how Roy gets a team of misfits together to undertake a quest to fight a Lich and save the world, are you saying that you want the OoTS comic to end? You don't have to read it, you know, and the rest of us enjoying it doesn't hurt you in the slightest. Justb pretend it doesn't exist and it on't trouble you.

Or, if you're saying you want to see "The Adventures of Belkar the Psycho" comic instead, I guess it could work, but it seems like a one-dimensional comic to me. The joke, every episode, is "Belkar stabbed him! Hahaha!"

Or "Elan's Crazy Hijinks" as Elan screws up again, and again, and again, but fortunately there's no Roy around to get mad. He just bumbles about from disaster to disaster, sort of like a Groo without great combat skills. Again, not funny for very long, but it probably has more potential than just Belkar.

Roy is necessary for The Order of The Stick to work. He's the straight man that the humour of the others plays off of. He's the instigator, the drive that gives the others direction. Otherwise, it's a bunch of loners with a set of different quests.

There is one alternate option, of course. If Azure City is destroyed, Hinjo could become the new OoTS leader. He could also play the straight man, though he's a little too perfect and we'd have to lose Belkar.

Personally, I hate the idea of Roy staying dead. There's far too much comic potential left in him, his story shouldn't end this way, and darn it, I just like the character.

[Dr._Weird]

Ding-dong, the witch is dead!

...

Yeah, I hate Roy.

I really hope Xykon will destroy the body so the party at least has to use True Ressurection to get him back.

I think I'll abolish ressurrection spells next D&D game I DM.

[Milandros]

Roy, ye shall be sorely missed. But, that was a pretty stupid way to die...:xykon:


Try putting it this way:

A terrible evil undead sorceror was coming, on the back of a might undead dragon, to slaughter thousands and gain ultimate power. Our hero, realising that nobody else had a chance of stopping it, risked his life, and lept on the dragojn's back to fight the lich. He crippled the dragon, but, unknown to him, the lich had other means of flight, and simply flew away and blasted our hero with magic. The hero fell to the ground, as was killed.

Stupid? Perhaps. Our hero could have done the "smart" thing, and run away. Or possibly even smarter, he could have joined the lich and served as a senior henchman, gaining power and wealth as he helps th lich conquer the world and destroy his former friends. However, he was a hero. He didn't do the "smart" thing, he did what he felt was the right thing. the fact that he failed doesn't mean he shouldn't have tried.

[Dr._Weird]

"Crippled the dragon? Xykon was only using it for style. That doesn't really do all that much to hinder him. It was a really stupid move for Roy, a fighter, to go up against a wizard 8 levels higher than him. All kinds of stupid.

If he had waited, there could have been other ways of killing Xykon.

"Unknown to him, the lich had other means of flight"? Wizards of that level always have some way to fly. Hell, any type of character at that level usually has a way to fly. Roy has shown enough knowledge of D&D mechanics in the past to understand this.

[Haruki-kun]

Eh? Considering the whole OoTS has been the story of how Roy gets a team of misfits together to undertake a quest to fight a Lich and save the world, are you saying that you want the OoTS comic to end? You don't have to read it, you know, and the rest of us enjoying it doesn't hurt you in the slightest. Justb pretend it doesn't exist and it on't trouble you.

Or, if you're saying you want to see "The Adventures of Belkar the Psycho" comic instead, I guess it could work, but it seems like a one-dimensional comic to me. The joke, every episode, is "Belkar stabbed him! Hahaha!"

Or "Elan's Crazy Hijinks" as Elan screws up again, and again, and again, but fortunately there's no Roy around to get mad. He just bumbles about from disaster to disaster, sort of like a Groo without great combat skills. Again, not funny for very long, but it probably has more potential than just Belkar.

Roy is necessary for The Order of The Stick to work. He's the straight man that the humour of the others plays off of. He's the instigator, the drive that gives the others direction. Otherwise, it's a bunch of loners with a set of different quests.

There is one alternate option, of course. If Azure City is destroyed, Hinjo could become the new OoTS leader. He could also play the straight man, though he's a little too perfect and we'd have to lose Belkar.

Personally, I hate the idea of Roy staying dead. There's far too much comic potential left in him, his story shouldn't end this way, and darn it, I just like the character.

Oh, come ON!!!!! Can we make the comic any MORE about Roy???
I know he's necessary, but he doesn't have to get THAT much attention.

Me? I hate Roy, OK? He's uncapable of having fun with the Order and treats them all as inferiors, like crap, except maybe Durkon. He constantly complains about everything, and he's the character that' made me laugh the least. I don't have to like the character, you know?

BTW, the comic's name is the Order of the Stick, implying it's about the Order, not "Roy Greenhilt's Adventures". Durkon's gonna die eventually, isn't he? Is that gonna end the comic?

Geez........ I don't actually hate him, OK? I'm just...... not mourning. And why mourn? I don't think he's dead. That's a very pathetic death for a protagonist if you ask me.

[Wizzardman]

Actually, yeah, I don't think you're alone in the mourning of Roy. I mean, in the discussion thread, I pulled a Darth Vader 'do not want' moment.

Goodbye, Roy. And you better come back soon. Seriously. If you don't, I'm going to go all Ghostbuster on your rear end.



I expected his death due to the oracle thingy and Belkar giving him that darned ring, so I am not surprised enough to be truly mourning. Roy was my favourite main character though.
Still, I am no friend of reviving dead main characters, so it would be ok for me if Roy would staydead.
Actually, I hate to say it, but I think this may just be some sort of ruse on the part of the Giant--he does this little trick to convince everyone that Belkar finally got to kill somebody, and saves the real killing moment for much later.

[Dr._Weird]

Oh, come ON!!!!! Can we make the comic any MORE about Roy???
I know he's necessary, but he doesn't have to get THAT much attention.

Me? I hate Roy, OK? He's uncapable of having fun with the Order and treats them all as inferiors, like crap, except maybe Durkon. He constantly complains about everything, and he's the character that' made me laugh the least. I don't have to like the character, you know?

BTW, the comic's name is the Order of the Stick, implying it's about the Order, not "Roy Greenhilt's Adventures". Durkon's gonna die eventually, isn't he? Is that gonna end the comic?

Geez........ I don't actually hate him, OK? I'm just...... not mourning. And why mourn? I don't think he's dead. That's a very pathetic death for a protagonist if you ask me.

The comic is called "Order of the Stick", but Roy was (:smallamused:) nevertheless the main character.

Star Wars is not named "The Adventures of Luke, Boy Wonder"! Why did Lucas spend so much time on him!!! :smallfurious:

[Mewtarthio]

He died as he lived--mildly annoyed at other people's stupidity.

Incidentally, there are a few surefire ways to prevent resurrection. Redcloak could Soul Bind him or, worse, turn him into an undead. And unlike Xykon, Redcloak remembers Roy and views him as a threat.

[Dr._Weird]

Ooh, yes. Roy as an undead could be the best twist to happen to this comic yet.

[Constantinople]

I'm not mourning because the city has enough diamonds to resurrect him, since they tried to do so with the then-ruler of the city just after he died.

[jindra34]

I'll mourn with you as soon as i get over the seething anger...

[Milandros]

Yes, he crippled the dragon - or don't you think a zombie dragon's bite attack counts for anything? Why not ask the Azure City seer about that?

And of course, if you see someone riding a dragon, your first thought is going to be "Ah-ha! I bet they've cast fly on themself, the dragon is just for show!" Not every sorceror takes Overland Flight (a 5th level spell) after all, they have a very limited selection. Some take combat spells like Cloudkill instead.

Roy created the Order of the Stick (read Origins). They're on Roy's quest to save the world. Haley's quest is to get enough money to free her father, Durkon is longing to return home, Varsuviuus is questing for knowledge and power, Elan is just bumming along with anyone that will give him gainful employment as he's not had a lot of luck with anyone except Roy in the past (again, read Origins), and Belkar is with them because he needs the protection a group has to offer, they give him chances to kill things, and because Roy doesn't let him go off on his own and butcher innocents.

The comic can, perhaps, survive without Roy, but it wouldn't be the same. Buffy perhaps could have survived with Buffy permanently dead. Firefly perhaps could have worked if they'd killed off the captain. It's always possible. But it wouldn't have been the same show.

[Dr._Weird]

I'm not mourning because the city has enough diamonds to resurrect him, since they tried to do so with the then-ruler of the city just after he died.

Why ressurect Roy? He's pretty useless to the city. From their point of view, he

a) Destroyed one of the gates upholding reality and barely got away with it

b) Couldn't stop one of their best wizards from dying, and afterwards didn't care at all about it

c) Couldn't stop Miko from killing Shojo

d) Promptly got himself killed as soon as he tried to do anything in the battle other than take some arrows for an amazingly useless bard.

EDIT: Yes, I realize that he crippled the dragon. I'm saying it doesn't make all that much of a difference compared to Xykon running loose.

BTW, sorry if I seem a little antagonistic or angry My day hasn't been the best and I like a good debate. :smallsmile:

[Galdred]

Or his player will make a new character.


Are there really players behind the characters? I have found no indications on that. It looks more like characters were self contained living beings, who would just happen to be aware of their world being led by D20 rules and a plot, but maybe I missed some part of the comics.

[Tobrian]

From my posting in the #443 strip thread:

Le roi est mort - vive le roi?
Azure City lost a stalwart defender today. He leapt into the fray without hesitation or regard for his own life, and died in battle against a superior foe, worthy of a place in Valhalla.

Looks like I was right with my prediction about the Hero Journey. After the fight with the "dragon", the hero descends into the Underworld (sometimes metaphorical, sometimes real), meets the Goddess of Death or Wisdom and re-emerges as The Hero Reborn.



Honestly? I hope he stays dead. But I doubt he will.

He's the central character of this comic. Superman never stayed dead for long either.


Why ressurect Roy? He's pretty useless to the city. From their point of view, he (snip)

Hinjo is still a Lawful Good paladin. There's such a thing as loyalty. Dying in war is not a crime.

The other viewpoint is the Neutral Evil one, which can be summed up as: This soldier is too wounded to be useful anymore in war, and he didn't have the good sense to die on the battlefield to spare us further costs, so let's cut his disability benefits and let him deal with life on his own.


Are there really players behind the characters? I have found no indications on that. It looks more like characters were self contained living beings, who would just happen to be aware of their world being led by D20 rules and a plot, but maybe I missed some part of the comics.

You didn't. I doubt there are actual players behind the protagonists of OotS and Goblin comic... the characters know the D&D rules because that's the natural laws that their world runs on, but I never had the feeling there are players anywhere Out There. I hope not, in fact, because it would take me right out of enjoying the comic.

"Player character" and "Villain" seems to be more of a label, for those heroes and villains that by narrative causality get special boons by Fate, but have to put up with living a life full of weird quests, dangerous monsters, railroad plots and bizarre coincidences. :smallwink:

[spectheintro]

Me? I hate Roy, OK? He's uncapable of having fun with the Order and treats them all as inferiors, like crap, except maybe Durkon. He constantly complains about everything, and he's the character that' made me laugh the least. I don't have to like the character, you know?

No, you don't have to like the character. I'm surprised he's made you laugh the least, but to each his own--Thog always has me rolling, and there's a good chunk of people on the board who can't stand him.

Roy was my favorite character. I don't know how to feel about what just happened to him. D&D ruins the dramatic effect of his death because I know there are ways around its permanence, and now I'll need to contend with: "Will Rich bring him back, or is this the end of Roy?" For storytelling purposes, this is a beautiful and dramatic death--CERTAINLY not stupid. He died trying to protect everyone he loved, even though he knew it could very well be the death of him. He couldn't pull other defenders from the wall to try and help him kill Xykon. That people think his actions were anything less than noble is mystifying to me: Roy made the ultimate sacrifice. I don't want it to be belittled by a resurrection, but at the same time, I don't want to see him stay dead.

So yes, I am sorry to see him go. I wouldn't say I'm mourning him--he is, as another person pointed out, a stick figure in a comic, and I happen to live in VA too--but I am sad to see his death.

On sleepless roads the sleepless go.
May angels lead you in, Roy.

[Dr._Weird]

Oh, it was plenty noble. It was just stupid. No offense to the vikings, they're cool and I love the mythology, but charging into battle against all odds is a very stupid thing to do.

[Knight_Of_Twilight]

*GekiGanger/Getter Robo style*

ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOY!!!!

*Cries to the heavens*

[Silverlocke980]

I think it's because we all assume Roy will survive this.

But, if not...

Then I mourn with thee!

Poor Roy! We never knew what we had!

[Creeter]

For as long as he is out of active plot participation, I will miss Roy. But one way or the other, his death/res/whatever will affect the plot from here. I'm not saying he's the most important character in the strip, but he is a key character, so I'm sure however Rich resolves this lil hurdle will satisfy all. It'll just be agony between now & when we get to find out. :smalltongue:

[Tobrian]

Oh, it was plenty noble. It was just stupid. No offense to the vikings, they're cool and I love the mythology, but charging into battle against all odds is a very stupid thing to do.

And again with the 21st century blasé cynicism.
I don't like the Viking mentality either (for different reasons than their fixation on a glorious death) but... everyone dies in the end. Sooner or later. Roy, even though he as a fictional character, was a warrior. He didn't do things just to be "cool".


Roy made the ultimate sacrifice. I don't want it to be belittled by a resurrection, but at the same time, I don't want to see him stay dead.

*sigh* I remember the words of a DM when I was upset that the other surviving members of the group had let my character die when they could have tried to get to him and save him while he was still at -7 hp: "Stop whining, death isn't permanent in D&D, that's what Raise Dead is for, res spells are part of the system for precisely this reason."

At first I was loathe to just "take the easy way out" and have my character raised by a group's cleric with a snip of the DM's finger, because he had died in battle. On the other hand, he still had things to do in life, I felt, so I relented. The other players seemed a tad annoyed that I felt it neccessary to play out my character being traumatised by his coming back to life nearly a day after being killed (Ew. Bodies don't get fresher.), esp because he already suffered from a phobia of undead and necromancy. Meh.

On the other hand, look at mythology and fairy tales: Scores of heroes are killed, poisoned, hacked apart, and resurrected, or heroes journey into the Underworld to persuade the God(dess) of Death to allow the soul of their loved one to return to life. They only stay dead permanently if their death is the culmination of their life, their destiny, or if they violated a sacred oath or a geas and death is the punishment fate deals out.

The D&D core rules just have the unfortunate tendency to turn resurrection into a revolving door, where the most difficult bit is to find the spell component. *rolls eyes*

[Dr._Weird]

And again with the 21st century blasé cynicism.

Yep, that's me! :smalltongue:

[Peanut Gallery]

I'm glad actually. The talisman was too predictable an out. Probably why it wasn't used. Or because the Giant heard everyone WAS predicting it and decided it was more fun to throw us for a spin.
Another reason was the "I'm a PC so I'm special" mentality that Haley had before the battle started. I had a DM who'd cater to it. And another who said, "If you charge the Ogre that's 2 CR above you, you're going to get whacked and I'm not gonna stop him."
Roy is/was not match for Xykon. If he expected to just miraculously pull off another defeat then he's gotten to cocky anyways.

[U2QueenBee]

I'll mourn with you. I'm pretty stunned that Roy has died actually. Not because I thought the Order had 'death immunity' per se, but because it's just hard to picture the Order even existing (or the comic continuing) without him, somehow. As party leader and the person with the most obvious quest, he's always been the lynchpin. It's hard to know what course the comic, or the group, will take in his absence. Once upon a time I could almost have seen Miko taking his place, but there's no way that could happen now.

For me, Roy is like Torg in Sluggy Freelance. I could see Pete killing off Zoe, Gwynn, Riff, Aylee, even Bun-bun - but without Torg, it just wouldn't be Sluggy anymore. (And if it was Kiki, there would be A RECKONING. So help me.)

RIP Roy. :( Please come back to us. To paraphrase Pinky, how will the Order (and Elan particularly) make in the world without your guidance, your moral support, and all those little blows to the head?

[GymGeekAus]

A-hem.

I have gotten to know Roy Greenhilt pretty well over the past few years. Although he doesn't know me.

Roy was a true heroic figure. He was kind, thoughtful, and stood up for those who could not do so themselves. The greatsword was his chosen weapon, but it was a weapon of last resort. He was a diplomat, and a true friend. Self-sacrifice was second-nature to him. And although he had his share of human frailty, he learned from his mistakes.

He was a good and noble man. In a world of objective good and evil, he demonstrated that the cliche' could still have soul.

May the gods of the north take him into their household, until he is called upon again.

We'll miss you, Roy!

[Zynex]

Mourning still... Can't help but play the song Crossroads by Bone Thugs and Harmony over and over in my head, on my computer or on my MP3 player. Kinda helps me cope.

anyway, like Roy a lot, reminded me of the times when I played the voice of reason in some of the campaigns I joined in.

Still hoping that there'd be a way to weasel out of this one but, things just don't work out the way they're supposed to sometimes.

A leader...

A friend...

A loved one...

A true hearted, courageous soldier of Law and Good.

He will be missed.

[MReav]

Mourning still... Can't help but play the song Crossroads by Bone Thugs and Harmony over and over in my head, on my computer or on my MP3 player. Kinda helps me cope.

anyway, like Roy a lot, reminded me of the times when I played the voice of reason in some of the campaigns I joined in.

Still hoping that there'd be a way to weasel out of this one but, things just don't work out the way they're supposed to sometimes.

A leader...

A friend...

A loved one...

A true hearted, courageous soldier of Law and Good.

He will be missed.

Right up until he gets rez'd.

Hey, his dad got killed at least 5 times.

Besides, it could be worse, he could be that the Unlucky guy buried near Eugene

[jindra34]

Hey, his dad got killed at least 5 times.

Besides, it could be worse, he could be that the Unlucky guy buried near Eugene

WHA?! how did that happen?

[MReav]

WHA?! how did that happen?

Eugene's Tombstone lists numerous times where he gets offed, before getting resurrected

[Fawkes]

I'm glad actually. The talisman was too predictable an out. Probably why it wasn't used. Or because the Giant heard everyone WAS predicting it and decided it was more fun to throw us for a spin.

I'm sure that the Giant has had Roy's death planned for quite some time. He always says that he doesn't read speculation, and I'm inclined to believe him.

Look, there's not much that we can predict that he hasn't thought of. He knows the story much better than we do. I think it's safe to say that he predicted that people would expect him to "weasel out" in several different ways, and planned to reference them. Just like the poisoned arrow.

[Dr._Weird]

A-hem.

Roy was a true heroic figure. He was kind, thoughtful, and stood up for those who could not do so themselves.

He left Elan to die for way too long before deciding to help. He didn't care an iota when the teleport-wizard-dude died.

[Innis Cabal]

all this hate for roy...he is a PC, he isnt CG, he isnt even NG. He is LG, and that means he is not a touchy feely person. His home life isnt great, sorry he isnt what you like but hate him for it? Well thats just silly and narrow minded.

[OmadaZero]

He left Elan to die for way too long before deciding to help. He didn't care an iota when the teleport-wizard-dude died.

I'd be pretty pissed at a wizard who got drunk and teleported me into a roc's nest as well... and I think that it was mostly used to illustrate that PC's tend to discard NPC's once they have lived out their usefulness. His lack of aid for Elan is a rather good argument, but the problem with it is that later he saves him from pain and takes three arrows doing it. This shows that he's gone farther into the "Good" mentality and has started to really get an attachment to our ignoble bard.

All in all, Roy was a good leader and a good person. He wasn't a great person, but he was never meant to be a "Mary Sue" character anyway. He makes mistakes, tries and fails, and learns just like we all do. I liked him a lot and I'm going to miss the guy.

Also, I'm a huge proponent of the old "try even in the face of death", so Roy holds a special place in my heart for doing what he did. As much as I'm not a fan of the ease at which people can put back on the mortal coil in D&D, I'm all for it if they come back changed in some critical way. For Roy, I'm thinking some sort of template or prestige class.

[SteveMB]

All in all, Roy was a good leader and a good person.

Sometimes, he wasn't an entirely nice person, but that makes him all the more interesting (and realistic, given the indications that he learned the more obnoxious bits of his personality from dear old Dad).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Poor Roy...
:roy:: ...I'm not dead...

[Bunch of Grapes]

*GekiGanger/Getter Robo style*

ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOY!!!!

*Cries to the heavens*

Sorry, but you forgot the obvious second part of that cry:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Roy has past and left the world a lesser place for his absence. Yes he was a bit stick-in-the-mud, yes trying to take out Xykon by himself wasn't real smart (thats unfair, Roy was acting dumb like a fireman rushing into a burning building acts dumb), and yes I mourn for his passing. Roy was the founder, leader, and glue that held the Order of the Stick together. Without him, they are sadly diminished.

His last fight, defending Azure City and the Snarl's Gate against an overwhelming horde of hobgoblins and an evil lich sorcerer, is suitably epic. I can imagine Elan being inspired to create an epic tragic poem ala Beowulf or Sigurd -- "The Fall of Roy Greenhilt," anybody??? Maybe Elan and Haley will name their firstborn Roy (should be fun if it's a girl). If Roy does get a suitably Viking sendoff, will they need to consult Thog about it??

One of the things I really enjoy about OOTS is how well the characters are done. I mean love or hate them, we care about the main characters, villian and PC alike. It's an extremely difficult thing to create and maintain that level of loyalty/derision. My hat is off to the Giant and his staff for the excellent work they have done over the past couple years. OOTS is always fun, refreshing, and a joy to read. And he always finds ways to keep us surprised and on our toes (loved the way the severed dragon's head took out the Death Knight).

Ok, so now that Roy has passed on, what does that mean for the rest of the Order?? Hmm, I think it is a chance for more character development. Haley will step into the leadership void, Durkon will build a shrine in memory of his friend's sacrifice, V will go all PMS and beat Xykon's SR to disintegrate him back into dust, Hinjo will recognize the need to be sneaky and expedient and topple the Sapphire Throne on top of Xykon (think -- the throne would do bludgeoning damage as an improvised weapon and I'll bet Shojo had some sort of enchantments in the throne that helped him rule Azure City), Elan will be taken seriously again, or something. One of the great things about OOTS is that the PC's grow and mature as they experience new things. Elan has started to think and plan things, Haley has learned to look beyond her greed and insecurities, Roy stood up to his father and has learned to make decisions based on his own values. And these are just the PC's (even villians develop, Miko has gone from lawful fanatic to Freudian assassin and Sabine has interests of her own separate from her boyfriend's). Roy's death is just another plot device that will lead to some entertaining and surprising future episodes.

I can only guess at the specifics, but I'm sure we aren't done with Roy. He's too important to the storyline to be cut out just yet. Azure City is still under attack, there are two more portals to the Snarl, and Celia is coming back after the school semester ends. Face it, Roy's work isn't done.

Ok, my predictions:

Resurrect Roy: Nah, hate those lost level penalties.

Animate Roy: Nah, the Giant is entertaining, not diabolically evil.

True Resurrect Roy: Maybe, if they can find somebody to cast it.

Reincarnate Roy: The winner. Somehow, someone finds a way to reincarnate Roy as a bugbear or badger or dwarf or something with a positive Con modifier (now that Xykon has taken back that crown, will Roy have an equipment slot open of an amulet of Natural Health???)

One more prediction: Belkar takes out the Huecva. Sexy Shoeless God Of War beats Protection from Good anytime, anywhere, anyhow.

[Dr._Weird]

all this hate for roy...he is a PC, he isnt CG, he isnt even NG. He is LG, and that means he is not a touchy feely person. His home life isnt great, sorry he isnt what you like but hate him for it? Well thats just silly and narrow minded.

He's always kind of irked me, and it just gets worse when everyone idolizes him. Also, I like debate. :smallwink:

EDIT: Oh yeah, and Xykon is cool.

[Assassinfox]

Sorry, but you forgot the obvious second part of that cry:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Don't you mean...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! (http://darthno.ytmnd.com/)

[OmadaZero]

Sometimes, he wasn't an entirely nice person, but that makes him all the more interesting (and realistic, given the indications that he learned the more obnoxious bits of his personality from dear old Dad).

Exactly my point. His lack of being completely good made him all the much more human (opposite: shallow, flat character; not opposite: elf, dwarf, etc.) It made his character come alive and have room to grow. I think the best jokes have a lot of goons and one guy who just wants to bang his head against a wall, OotS is no different. He's a good, realistic character... so I'll mourn even if no one else will join me... so there. :smalltongue:

[squidly_bard]

there is absoultly postivly NO WAY ROY IS DEAD!!! as i've CLEARLY stated on other posts and I quote: "has any one heard of main charicter immunity!??!?!!??!?!" seriuosly! this thread did bring out some cool posts but roy is not dead. also bunch of grapes was really good his preditions and all. it would make a cool side quest if he comes back as an animal and had to find some amulet or something to turn him back. but roy is really not dead.

[jindra34]

there is absoultly postivly NO WAY ROY IS DEAD!!! as i've CLEARLY stated on other posts and I quote: "has any one heard of main charicter immunity!??!?!!??!?!" seriuosly! this thread did bring out some cool posts but roy is not dead. also bunch of grapes was really good his preditions and all. it would make a cool side quest if he comes back as an animal and had to find some amulet or something to turn him back. but roy is really not dead.

X'd out eyes.... all i have to say...

[Assassinfox]

Roy's a great character with lots of personality, unlike some characters out there. *cough*V*cough*

Still, it would've been ridiculous if he miraculously survived by virtue of being a cool character. And he's still a grumpy meany-head. :smalltongue:

[Oxymoron]

I`m looking forward to his family reunion with his father. The suspense, the drama , the winded aruments. Anyway, he will be up and about soon enough. Maybe this will cause Durkon to leave the safety of the walls to ress Roy? And then he will face the Hevuca or whatever its called? Roys death will be plot-related no doubt.

[Spleen]

*See signature.*

Roy, if he is truly dead, will be missed. He was easily the most 3-dimensional character in the comic and I must admit I have grown to like him.

So... will Durkon be the straight-man of the group now? Y'know, provided there aren't any liches binding ghouls around.

[Holy_Knight]

I actually didn't realize Roy was dead until seeing this thread, because the ash on his face obscured the Xes on his eyes at first. But now that it seems he's gone...

I'll mourn Roy. Even though I do agree that people tended to overlook his faults, he was a good guy overall, not to mention a good character. I hope he comes back at some point, but it will also be really interesting to see how the rest of the OoTS reacts to his passing. For those who are afraid that resurrection would be too anticlimactic, what if it's not a simple process? Remember in Chrono Trigger, when Crono sacrifices himself to save the others, and they all work together to go back to the critical moment to save him? Yes, he was brought back from the dead, but it didn't cheapen his sacrifice at all, rather showing the extent of his friends' love for him. So I think it would be great if something roughly similar (probably not involving time travel though) happens with the Order and Roy.

Other than that, here's a few other thoughts in response to some things in the thread:

--If Roy didn't come back, then I bet we'd see Elan "taking up Roy's mantle", so to speak, learning to wield his sword and becoming more serious. (Actually, something like that might even happen temporarily before Roy can get resurrected, which could be interesting. At the very least, I'd be surprised if Elan didn't try to hold onto the sword in honor of his fallen best friend/surrogate brother.)

--If Captain Mal were killed off, I don't see how Firefly could continue. He makes the show.

--U2QueenBee, was that a Pinky and the Brain reference? Major points for that! What a great show. :smallsmile:

[Fawkes]

Yeah, it's pretty clear that he is currently dead. But hopefully not for long. I'm gonna be having a little "Best of Roy" until he returns.

Really, I can't even imagine the Giant leaving him dead. Durkon cares too much for him, and Hinjo needs him. It's interesting, Origin portrays them as great friends, but in the online comic they're really just teammates.

[YohanLeafheart]

Let's pray for a moment for the soul of Roy. let the Twelven Gods have mercy on his soul, as he was As Lawful as Good.

[tanonev]

He left Elan to die for way too long before deciding to help. He didn't care an iota when the teleport-wizard-dude died.

10 gold says none of the (many) people who hold Roy (or Miko, for that matter) to such ridiculously high standards for being LG are actually capable of meeting said standards themselves. :smallamused:

But I digress.

Poor Roy...a victim of the DM forcing the player to think in realtime...

[squidly_bard]

you guys are still talking about Roy actually dying! *cough* main charicter imunnity *cough* *cough*

[Assassinfox]

you guys are still talking about Roy actually dying! *cough* main charicter imunnity *cough* *cough*

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41887

[Fawkes]

Look, Squidly, loathe as I am to admit it, Assassinfox is right. Roy has died. I believe he's not gone forever, but the x's don't lie. Even when Elan was at -7, he didn't have x's.

[Brickman]

Quoting myself from that other thread:

There are certain rules to literary death. An important, well-liked character can only die either by the direct action of an (if not the) important villain, saving an ally, or in some other very dramatic fashion; if you're more than one plot arc old you're immune to random encounters. As a rule he cannot even be killed by a standard attack; there must be something special about whatever finishes him off. Once the person dies, the writer will make sure that it is as clear as possible that he's truly dead, leaving no doubt even to fans who refuse to believe it because they like him. And once a significant character of any kind, whether hero, villain or even secondary, dies, they are dead. And these rules apply to humorous but plot-driven webcomics too (http://www.incomprehensibility.com/archives.php?type=iwd&c=354). If these rules are not followed, death in your story becomes meaningless and the drama is lost.

Minor, silly characters like the random drunken mage are one thing, but this is not, say, Bob and George visit DnD, or a simple joke-a-day comic. Things that happen in this comic are permanent and continuity is never broken. Just because Rich comes up with twenty new jokes he should have used back in Durokun's Dungeon doesn't mean he'll teleport them back there, just because he had a great new idea for a joke involving that druid character doesn't mean he's resurrected (actually, I don't remember if he's dead, but that's beside the point), and just because people liked Roy doesn't mean his death is temporary. He is dead. He's not completely out of the comic--he WILL appear in flashbacks and exposition and perhaps even dreams and stuff, likely with spoken dialogue--but he is dead, and will stay dead.

There's nothing unsatisfying about this death to me. He was killed on a serious note, as part of a heroic sacrifice where he knew it was near-suicide, and ample attention was paid to his last desperate moments. He was even offered a chance to live, which he adamantly refused. So Xykon, the story's main villain who is already established as way out of his league, kills him by casting a high level spell that only wounds him, but then it is the fall damage from the situation Roy willingly and knowingly put himself in finishes him off, and he casts it with a definite degree of finality and full confidence that this spell is instant death (which it is). Not just another attack that happened to be his last HP. An already wounded Roy hits the ground struggling to find one last out, and with a splat he is given the same X-eyes that have denoted complete death for the last 443 episodes. I don't even remember anyone questioning Shojo died the panel he got X-eyes. Though he didn't accomplish anything in dying, I consider this just as, if not more, satisfying as any other literary death, especially the "sacrificial" Hollywood deaths.

Was Roy useful for both humor and plot? Yes, of course. But this is a story about a PARTY of heroes, and there's others to carry the protagonist torch. I think it's no more likely that Roy will be revived than that Rich will rebuild and send the party back to the dungeon the first 120 strips in (that's more than one quarter of the comic to date). And they blew that up.

Roy was a deep, fully developed character. He was not killed prematurely; had he been, this wouldn't be happening. Had Varsuvius died, I personally wouldn't care, because I don't like/care for him/her yet--and that is why V didn't die. That is why Roy died. He's been developed, he's fleshed out, we care what happens to him. So when he dies it means something. Had the giant killed V, it would have been a waste of a character, because V is not done becoming real yet; Roy is.

I view this the same way as any other main character death: in terms of how much I liked him, how well he was developed, how he died and what plot implications this can potentially have. He gets top marks on all of them.

Resurrection exists in DnD because death isn't planned. It's a very rare and probably very bad DM who writes a situation specifically with the intent that one of his players has to die in it for the plot to work. Death happens by accident, outside the plot's planning, and often in ways that would just screw the whole plot up--so you just make an easy way to fix it and get the same character back in the running if he was plot-vital. Make it expensive, a punishment for screwing up, but possible and reusable even at somewhat low levels, because there's no telling how often it'll happen while writing your story.
Resurrection, at least easy DnD-ish resurrection, doesn't exist in a good story because it is planned meticulously. The writer can choose whether he wants the guy to die and he will do that. He can choose how he wants the guy to die and he will do that. It is his responsibility to make sure that death, should it happen at all, is meaningful, impressive and not premature. He does all those things, and he doesn't need resurrection. He doesn't need it because the character won't die unless he was supposed to, and if the author changes his mind on the death he goes back and undoes it before it happens rather than after.

(Well, there's that and there's the whole "player out of the game" thing, which also only is a problem in games rather than stories)

A good writer pretty much HAS to write easy resurrection out of any story that uses a game-ish setting like DnD, or his story looks like a comic book (the bad way)--Yeah, Superman dies every two months or so and never stays dead for more than a week, so it means absolutely nothing that he dies. Or alternately, your protagonists are just invincible, using the PC sheild to beat any odds and avoid any danger. It's the reason people get mad at a character for not risking his life for another--he can't really die, so he's not risking anything but some cuts and scratches, so it's pretty selfish not to go help him. The sacrifice and risk are meaningless. So you NEED to kill a character, a meaningful character, every once in a while to remind everyone reading that yes, the reason that he's wearing armor is that there is in fact delicate human skin guarding delicate human organs under there.

[Bunch of Grapes]

Don't you mean...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! (http://darthno.ytmnd.com/)

I stand corrected AF, that is a better way to put it.

[Shott]

Rest easy, my warrior friend.

[spectheintro]

He left Elan to die for way too long before deciding to help. He didn't care an iota when the teleport-wizard-dude died.

Yeah, because anyone who's *really* good never makes mistakes, ever, and certainly their repentance for those mistakes can never be considered satisfactory.

Roy was not always nice, but he never stopped being *good*--even in the instance when he abandoned Elan. Not only did he come to his senses, but he felt genuinely bad about it, which in my mind speaks more highly of him than any other character in the strip. Furthermore, as Roy plummets to his doom, he has time to wish Elan and Haley a happy life ever after.

If you don't like Roy, fine, but don't try to pass it off as a rational dislike of him. It is your personal preference, and you are entitled to it.

[Nathander]

Huh? The Oracle didn't say anything about the death caused by Belkar from the list (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html) leading to Belkar's own death. He made a couple of statements (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html) before that that would seem to imply that our homicidal halfling isn't long for this world, but no connection was drawn between the two.

Sorry, let me clarify; while the death he causes won't be what kills him, it stands to follow, logically, that he would kill one of those people before he himself dies. What I meant is that once he kills the person he's intended to kill due to the prophecy, it'll only be a matter of time before him himself meets his fate.

[Aiani]

I'll mourn Roy with you. The comic took me by surprise because I expected him to somehow survive but now I am sad. I am also interested in seeing where the story goes now but still sad.

[Kreistor]

Resurrection, at least easy DnD-ish resurrection, doesn't exist in a good story because it is planned meticulously.

Except that this is the story of some PC's, not a normal novel. They acknowledge that they are playing DnD in Strip #001, just to establish the setting. The strip is run as if there were players behind the characters.

This is a DnD world using the PHB. It has already been established that Raise Dead is a part of the world, and Roy has died such that he can be Raised.

In most stories, heroes don't die at all. They go beginning to end, never losing a serious companion. Having a Resurrection available simply allows a new type of damage -- death. It's really only available for PC's and important NPC's. Of course, PC's and important NPC's in most books never die in the first place, because they are needed for the plot, so there really isn't a difference.

If the Giant wants someone to die permanently, he can do it. The character can be like Shojo, and simply not want to come back.

[Tharr]

The last fact we need is Dragon Magazine to appear before Roy in spirit.

[Xeticus]

I read the entire strip and had to go back and double check the X's for eyes. I hope Roy is brought back. Until then I shall mourn him and drink a beer in his honor.

[Tharr]

The fun weird song "Help now I am Falling" was playing while reading.

[ShiningTed]

Roy as an undead could be the best twist to happen to this comic yet.I agree. This made me think of Jean-Luc Picard becoming 'Locutus of Borg' - a great twist that spawned his fantastic tantrums in First Contact, where he went all Cap'n Ahab. (Ok, the fact this reminded me of Star Trek is as sad and tragic as Roy's death itself, but just deal with it, mmm'k?)

I also agree with the lass who said the booty talisman would have been too predictable.

Ted's prediction?
The next comic will feature no speech, just the OotS guys coming from the four corners of the battlefield to stand around Roy. Elan will be in tears. Thats when we'll know, he's dead.
Of course what I really want to do is direct.

[Tundar]

Aw,come on! The Forum bursts with threads about the most minor moves people make, but nobody mourns poor Roy? Nobody speculates whether he will be resurected or not? Is there nobody to light up a candle for him, is there no whispered prayer to guide him to what will follow (though I can imagine Roy discussing with several Outsiders, because it's a lawful afterlife, and everything must be in order)?

Roy, I hope you will live again to bring justice, lawfulness and general MBA-wothy IQ into the world once more!

I'm mourning - the OOTS will not be the same without him, we need Roy to keep some sense and order in the world. Lets hope that someone will bring him back (pleeease?).

[Dr._Weird]

Yeah, because anyone who's *really* good never makes mistakes, ever, and certainly their repentance for those mistakes can never be considered satisfactory.

Roy was not always nice, but he never stopped being *good*--even in the instance when he abandoned Elan. Not only did he come to his senses, but he felt genuinely bad about it, which in my mind speaks more highly of him than any other character in the strip. Furthermore, as Roy plummets to his doom, he has time to wish Elan and Haley a happy life ever after.

If you don't like Roy, fine, but don't try to pass it off as a rational dislike of him. It is your personal preference, and you are entitled to it.

That was no "mistake". It was a decision. He thought about it, and decided he didn't care enough to save Elan from bandits. Even though adventurers do stuff like this all the time. What I was arguing against was the proclamation that he had always been noble and good. He recanted it later, but throwing somebody's life away is an evil act IMO.

[spectheintro]

That was no "mistake". It was a decision.

Definition of mistake via dictionary.com:

"an error in action, calculation, opinion, or judgment caused by poor reasoning, carelessness, insufficient knowledge, etc." (emphasis added)

So yes, it was a mistake.


He thought about it, and decided he didn't care enough to save Elan from bandits. Even though adventurers do stuff like this all the time. What I was arguing against was the proclamation that he had always been noble and good. He recanted it later, but throwing somebody's life away is an evil act IMO.

He has always been noble and good. "Noble and good" does not include the word perfect. He made a mistake, he repented for it, and he took measures to correct the error. That he made a mistake does not invalidate his goodness; using that standard of morality, everyone is evil.

That incident would reflect more negatively upon him had he not so quickly repented, and if Elan had genuinely suffered harm as a result. But neither holds.

Really, the only person further along the "good" alignment scale than Roy is Durkon. Elan may be good but he is also painfully naive and therefore innocent--and it is a LOT easier to be good when you don't fully grasp the complexities of the world. That Roy is as intelligent and wise as he is, and yet still makes the right decisions time after time, is a testament to his character. Your dislike of him is not something I profess to understand, but you're going to have a very hard time convincing me it is anything other than a matter of taste. The comic has been very clear in establishing Roy's character, and he is a good, noble person. Not perfect. But clearly very good.

[Dr._Weird]

Why I dislike him? Okay.

A. He's worshipped on the boards as perfect and flawless, and doesn't live up to those standards.

B. Playing devil's advocate is interesting, as are good debates.


Definition of mistake via dictionary.com:

Really, the only person further along the "good" alignment scale than Roy is Durkon.


Hinjo and every one of the party that created the gates.

[spectheintro]

Why I dislike him? Okay.

A. He's worshipped on the boards as perfect and flawless, and doesn't live up to those standards.

It's poor form to dislike something because of how other people react to it. There are fanboys and fangirls for everything in existence; just because they are irrational or stupid about their love/hate of something doesn't mean you need to as well. Roy's neither perfect nor flawless. But that's doesn't make him any less of a hero.


Hinjo and every one of the party that created the gates.

We don't really have a good grasp of Hinjo yet. Obviously he is LG, but whether or not he is as intrinsically good as Roy has yet to be seen. (I am a big fan of Hinjo myself.)

As far as the party who created the gates, they're not real characters in my mind. (I have not read any of the supplemental published materials.) As far as the immediate characters go--the ones who have been the focal point of many a strip--Roy is very high up there on the goodness scale.

[tanonev]

Why I dislike him? Okay.

A. He's worshipped on the boards as perfect and flawless, and doesn't live up to those standards.

You hate Roy because he doesn't live up to the standards of random people you've never met? Why on earth should those standards matter to you?


B. Playing devil's advocate is interesting, as are good debates.

Then does that mean you don't really dislike Roy? Or does that mean you dislike Roy for the sake of disliking Roy?


Hinjo

Possibly. I can't see how we would compare the two, though.


every one of the party that created the gates.

If you're citing Roy's temporary abandonment of Elan as evidence of him failing to be good, then what about Soon's permanent abandonment of Kraagor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)?

[Holy_Knight]

He has always been noble and good. "Noble and good" does not include the word perfect. He made a mistake, he repented for it, and he took measures to correct the error. That he made a mistake does not invalidate his goodness; using that standard of morality, everyone is evil.

That incident would reflect more negatively upon him had he not so quickly repented, and if Elan had genuinely suffered harm as a result. But neither holds.
Actually, while I agree with you that Roy is good overall, I think you're missing the point of those who strongly criticize Roy for abandoning Elan. Saying "He's usually good, but that was a mistake" doesn't recognize the gravity of the mistake that he made. By choosing to abandon Elan, he violated everything that he is supposed to stand for as:

--a good person
--a leader
--a soldier
--a friend
--a hero

At that moment, he basically failed to live up to what he ought to be in pretty much every area of his life. That's the kind of disgrace that doesn't just fade away, repentance notwithstanding. Like I said before, I think Roy's a good person overall, I like him, and I mourn him--but that doesn't mean people aren't right to come down on him extremely hard for abandoning Elan.





If you're citing Roy's temporary abandonment of Elan as evidence of him failing to be good, then what about Soon's permanent abandonment of Kraagor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)?
Actually, I interpreted this moment as Soon risking his own life as well as Kraagor's in order to seal the rift, seeing as Lirian doesn't want to cast the spell until both of them are clear. If I'm right in this, then Soon isn't abandoning Kraagor, he's just doing what is necessary to save the world (and not asking risks of others that he doesn't take himself.)

[Kreistor]

Hinjo and every one of the party that created the gates.

Let's look at what creating the Gates has done.

Good side -- Snarl isn't commiting random acts of murder.

Bad side -- Evil people can use the gates to control the snarl and kill people at whim.

Bad side -- Dead because the gates were created = Dorukan, two sigil guardians, Roy, possibly Shojo (debatable, but he did die because he was trying to send Roy after the other gates since he couldn't directly involve himself), and many defenders of Azure City with more to come (Xykon wouldn't be here attacking if the gate wasn't here). Oh, and many hobgoblin attackers, too.

Hm... I'm not so sure those that created the gates did a Good thing. It is possible that more peopel have died protecting the gates than the Snarl would have killed without the gates in place. The Order of the Scribble chose a reactive solution that solved a short term problem only to create a potentially greater long term problem.

[doliemaster]

I'm Happy he is dead:smallbiggrin: the voice of reason is gone, insanity will rule this comic, even more than it does already!:smallbiggrin:

[Fawkes]

I'm Happy he is dead:smallbiggrin: the voice of reason is gone, insanity will rule this comic, even more than it does already!:smallbiggrin:

Well, I see someone's chaotic.