The Witch and the Wizard.

[Loki Eremes]

Hello playgrounders...

My group and i started playing some Pathfinder to change a bit systems... and i gaze upon the Witch.

At first i was wondered with its flavour and a friend said "Its like a cleric but casts with INT", so i got intrigued...until i found out its practically a wizard with "HEXES"
Some of them are nice but the more i compared the classes i could not find the pros of playing a Witch over a Wizard.
I taught it was the familiar...but Witches have like 30 of them and the Wizard more than 60.
Even so, if a Witch losses a familiar is more expensive to replace it and all of your spells comes from him, so if you lose him.......


- Can someone tell me the PROs of playing a Witch over a Wizard? If there is something else than just getting Hexes it just goes under my radar.....




PLEASE, LOOK AT MY LAST POST! :3

.

[Kurald Galain]

The witch's advantage is indeed the Hex class feature, and the downside is that she gets less spells per day and has a much smaller list to pick from. It's nothing like a cleric, though.

The nice thing about hexes is that they never run out. This is not really a big deal, since a moderate-level wizard isn't going to run out of spells during an adventuring day, and a low-level wizard can spam cantrips like Daze all day.

Most hexes are decent but unimpressive, but in particular Slumber and Ice Tomb are extremely powerful; and if you're doing a melee build (e.g. a hair-based grappler or a hexcrafter Magus) then the Flight hex is an excellent pick.

So overall, the witch is slightly weaker than the wizard. Of course, since the wizard is pretty much the strongest class in the game, that isn't saying much :smallcool:

[GreyBlack]

Witches are master debuffers. Forcing them to roll twice on every d20? Giving minuses so the bsf can hit things? There's a myriad of ways to debuff things. And, as a class feature, you can get a literal house on legs.

[Psyren]

It's nothing like a cleric, though.

There is some common ground actually, notably they can fill in that healing/status removal slot in the party (for those groups that need it or feel they need it) while still filling the BFC/utility/debuff role as a primary arcanist - much like the druid or cleric can fill in for the primary melee while also bringing healing and other divine goodies to the table.


The nice thing about hexes is that they never run out. This is not really a big deal, since a moderate-level wizard isn't going to run out of spells during an adventuring day, and a low-level wizard can spam cantrips like Daze all day.

While this is true in theory, I find that players tend to play drastically differently when using the two classes simply because the hexes can be spammed, even with the 1/creature/day limit. I call it the Warlock Phenomenon - when you give a player an at-will hammer, every problem looks like a save-vs.-suck nail. Even when players have enough spells to cut loose as a wizard, they still tend to play cautiously.



So overall, the witch is slightly weaker than the wizard. Of course, since the wizard is pretty much the strongest class in the game, that isn't saying much :smallcool:

Indeed, very much this.

[Barstro]

There is some common ground actually, notably they can fill in that healing/status removal slot in the party (for those groups that need it or feel they need it) while still filling the BFC/utility/debuff role as a primary arcanist - much like the druid or cleric can fill in for the primary melee while also bringing healing and other divine goodies to the table.
For the most part, I'd say the Witch is capable of poorly filling the role, but that's still better than the Wizard. There are normally much better ways to use a spell slot, and the 1/day hexes don't do a whole lot.


While this is true in theory, I find that players tend to play drastically differently when using the two classes simply because the hexes can be spammed, even with the 1/creature/day limit. I call it the Warlock Phenomenon - when you give a player an at-will hammer, every problem looks like a save-vs.-suck nail. Even when players have enough spells to cut loose as a wizard, they still tend to play cautiously.
Personally, I played cautiously and spammed hexes simply because it was a way to help my party without drastically overshadowing them. Encasing one in a block of ice and forcing two others to reroll is rather fun. Seemed a better way to pull my punches than to waste spell slots that might be useful in the next fight. But, I enjoy drawn out fights where everyone gets to participate.

[Sacrieur]

Because why do all that book reading when you can just trade your soul for the power?

[Psyren]

For the most part, I'd say the Witch is capable of poorly filling the role, but that's still better than the Wizard. There are normally much better ways to use a spell slot, and the 1/day hexes don't do a whole lot.

Having the spells does however allow them to wave that CLW wand around if nobody else can do it, without needing UMD. The slots themselves aren't actually needed, though the Hedge Witch's ability to dump all her unused slots for the day into healing can be useful too.


Because why do all that book reading when you can just trade your soul for the power?

It's honestly bugged me a little that they cast from Int rather than Wis. Their fluff and pseudo-divine mechanics don't seem to make them particularly studious, aside from all the herbology and wilderness lore they have to learn I guess. I suppose that's enough to make them Int-based, but I see that stuff as more being tied to awareness of the world - which would be Wisdom - and would have given us a Wis-based arcane caster for whom the attribute actually made sense.

Anyway, sometimes the pacts they make (which I gather are a lot more complex than merely "selling their soul") can be far preferable to the alternative - such as the iconic Witch, Feiya. (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcs8&page=1?Meet-the-Iconics-Feiya)

[Barstro]

The witch's advantage is indeed the Hex class feature, and the downside is that she gets less spells per day and has a much smaller list to pick from.
Can a Witch research spells? If so, then the only difference is fewer spells per day.



Most hexes are decent but unimpressive, but in particular Slumber and Ice Tomb are extremely powerful; and if you're doing a melee build (e.g. a hair-based grappler or a hexcrafter Magus) then the Flight hex is an excellent pick.
Ice Tomb was nerfed so that it doesn't work on constructs, etc. but it is still nice for combat. I found flight hex to be rather action-intensive since it still requires a standard action to activate (quite annoying in combat) and almost unnecessary after Overland Flight is available.

[Ellowryn]

You are also forgetting the totally awesome Scarred Witchdoctor AcF that allows Orcs/Half-Orcs to use Con as their casting stat. That's right, you are a barbarian that thinks he is a wizard who is ACTUALLY A WIZARD!!!!

[Kurald Galain]

Can a Witch research spells?
The class makes no mention of it, so I'm leaning towards "no". Regardless, research is not an option in most campaigns.


I found flight hex to be rather action-intensive since it still requires a standard action to activate (quite annoying in combat) and almost unnecessary after Overland Flight is available.
That's what retraining is for. Flight hex is available at least four levels before overland flight, at least eight levels for a magus; just retrain it once you have a fifth-level spell slot to spare. Plus it gives automatic feather fall, which is always nice as a fallback.

[Psyren]

Can a Witch research spells? If so, then the only difference is fewer spells per day.

They can (all casters can research as of Ultimate Magic) but Spell Research shouldn't really be assumed because it is so DM-dependent.


Ice Tomb was nerfed so that it doesn't work on constructs, etc. but it is still nice for combat. I found flight hex to be rather action-intensive since it still requires a standard action to activate (quite annoying in combat) and almost unnecessary after Overland Flight is available.

One of the nice things about the Flight hex is that it's supernatural and thus undispellable. Beyond that though I agree, OF is more useful.


You are also forgetting the totally awesome Scarred Witchdoctor AcF that allows Orcs/Half-Orcs to use Con as their casting stat. That's right, you are a barbarian that thinks he is a wizard who is ACTUALLY A WIZARD!!!!

Note that it does not allow you to use Con for bonus spells. But for spell level and DC it does make you Con-based.

[Loki Eremes]

so i get the Witch is a sightly less versatile Wizard in exchange for the Hexes.
The familiar is not stronger than the wiz no matter how the class presents it, and you have to be even more carefull with it, because if he dies, say goodbye to all your spells right?

And what about feats? maybe she has a good selection that synergize well and compensates those problems?? :smallfrown:

[Psyren]

so i get the Witch is a sightly less versatile Wizard in exchange for the Hexes.
The familiar is not stronger than the wiz no matter how the class presents it, and you have to be even more carefull with it, because if he dies, say goodbye to all your spells right?

As with any critical data storage, invest in a backup solution. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/stone-familiar)


And what about feats? maybe she has a good selection that synergize well and compensates those problems?? :smallfrown:

Metamagic and hex-related stuff (like Split Hex, Accursed Hex and Spell Hex) are all you really need.

[Sacrieur]

It's honestly bugged me a little that they cast from Int rather than Wis. Their fluff and pseudo-divine mechanics don't seem to make them particularly studious, aside from all the herbology and wilderness lore they have to learn I guess. I suppose that's enough to make them Int-based, but I see that stuff as more being tied to awareness of the world - which would be Wisdom - and would have given us a Wis-based arcane caster for whom the attribute actually made sense.

Anyway, sometimes the pacts they make (which I gather are a lot more complex than merely "selling their soul") can be far preferable to the alternative - such as the iconic Witch, Feiya. (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcs8&page=1?Meet-the-Iconics-Feiya)

You could argue their ability to use spell knowledge (or retain it) is based solely on how intelligent they are to start with, and that this is the limiting factor of just how much power they can be bestowed with.

I've rather enjoyed the witch's fluff and if you're a PC, permits the DM a way of interacting with your character in new and interesting ways that wouldn't be available to a wizard.

[Psyren]

You could argue their ability to use spell knowledge (or retain it) is based solely on how intelligent they are to start with, and that this is the limiting factor of just how much power they can be bestowed with.

Yes, it does appear that how intelligent you are is the upper limit on how good a witch (or at least, how useful a tool to the enigmatic patrons) you can be. But it seems arbitrary - they could have tied it just as easily to how wise you are or how forceful your personality. (Or your threshold for pain/disfigurement, in the case of the Scarred Witch-Doctor.)

[Loki Eremes]

You could argue their ability to use spell knowledge (or retain it) is based solely on how intelligent they are to start with, and that this is the limiting factor of just how much power they can be bestowed with.

I've rather enjoyed the witch's fluff and if you're a PC, permits the DM a way of interacting with your character in new and interesting ways that wouldn't be available to a wizard.


Yes! Witch's flavour captivated me too, it somehows feels a lot more mysterious than any other casting class. And having to commune with its familiar to learn about magic in the world they are living gives the DM tools to make interesting stories for NPCs & PCs alike.
I also kinda understand the INT based class: you really need to use your brain to understand the bond with your familiar "tutor" and the patreons.
WIS was likely to be a good casting stat too anyways...



As with any critical data storage, invest in a backup solution. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/stone-familiar)


Metamagic and hex-related stuff (like Split Hex, Accursed Hex and Spell Hex) are all you really need.


About feats: Thanks for the basics man, ill be looking for these :smallbiggrin:

About the backup: thanks again....but im starting to really hate wizards.
They just start with the familiar benefits AND the spellbook. Well....at least the still have to spend gold when buying pages for it right?

[Psyren]

Almost forgot, also grab Ability Focus for your favorite offensive hexes.



They just start with the familiar benefits AND the spellbook. Well....at least the still have to spend gold when buying pages for it right?

The downside though is that they eventually need a Blessed Book, which is much more expensive - that or be forced to rely on multiple spellbooks, which can be cumbersome and a pain to track. In addition, you have fewer spells to store than the wizard does; if your familiar dies and is replaced, the new one will show up with 2 spells/level and all your patron spells for free. Therefore you only need to replace any beyond this number via the external hard-drive stone familiar.

[Barstro]

the new one will show up with 2 spells/level and all your patron spells for free. Therefore you only need to replace any beyond this number via the external hard-drive stone familiar.

It's been a while since I skimmed it, but I think it is really easy* for Witches to gets spells from one another too. Their familiars simply need to go on a date or something.

EDIT: ok, fine. *Inexpensive but time consuming.:smallwink:

[Psyren]

Much longer than a single date - it takes 1 hour/spell level for each spell you want to transfer this way, which adds up fast, and then you have to make the Spellcraft check to learn it or be stuck without that spell until your next level-up. Furthermore, generally witches want equal-level spells (at a minimum) in return, so you're then looking at that time requirement getting at least doubled.

[Gnaeus]

The nice thing about hexes is that they never run out. This is not really a big deal, since a moderate-level wizard isn't going to run out of spells during an adventuring day, and a low-level wizard can spam cantrips like Daze all day.

Most hexes are decent but unimpressive, but in particular Slumber and Ice Tomb are extremely powerful; and if you're doing a melee build (e.g. a hair-based grappler or a hexcrafter Magus) then the Flight hex is an excellent :

Not to disagree, but for the poster, hexes do have some huge advantages over spells in the low-mid op range.

It's been mentioned that hexes are at will, and undispellable. But also...
They ignore SR and magic resistance. So Misfortune and retribution work great vs. stuff like golems.
They do not provoke AOOs or require concentration checks.

Since they know that in most fights, Misfortune, Evil Eye and Slumber will be a good enough solution, witches and shamans can devote more of their lists to niche utility spells, that may be useless but will be critical when needed.

[Kurald Galain]

Not to disagree, but for the poster, hexes do have some huge advantages over spells in the low-mid op range.
They have some minor advantages, but nothing big here.

Wizards have plenty of spells that ignore SR and magic resistance, too. They avoid AOOs by casting defensively, and it's not hard to boost concentration checks to automatic success. Finally, regarding niche utility spells, the wizard's arcane bond does that better.

The thing is that (except for slumber and ice tomb), spells are simply stronger than hexes. So a spell-casting wizard is simply more effective than a witch who spams evil eye. And if you're going to argue that a low-mid op wizard doesn't pick good spells, well then the low-mid op witch doesn't pick the right hexes either. That cuts both ways.

[Necroticplague]

I've always been a fan of the Witch ACF that lets you cast using your CON score instead of your. Because turning 'squishy caster' on its head has always been funny.

[Barstro]

So a spell-casting wizard is simply more effective than a witch who spams evil eye. And if you're going to argue that a low-mid op wizard doesn't pick good spells, well then the low-mid op witch doesn't pick the right hexes either. That cuts both ways.

I'll take a Witch with Evil-Eye, Misfortune, and Cackle over a Wizard at low to mid levels. BUT, that's based on the fact that a Witch and a couple of Fighters can sit there all day and mess up three to six people per minute while a Wizard will run out of spells in the first few minutes.

This is a scenario that will never happen, though, as all DMs know to let the party rest for the day at 9:37a.m. if the wizard is out of spells. :smalltongue:

[Ssalarn]

I'll take a Witch with Evil-Eye, Misfortune, and Cackle over a Wizard at low to mid levels. BUT, that's based on the fact that a Witch and a couple of Fighters can sit there all day and mess up three to six people per minute while a Wizard will run out of spells in the first few minutes.

This is a scenario that will never happen, though, as all DMs know to let the party rest for the day at 9:37a.m. if the wizard is out of spells. :smalltongue:

Yeah, and good GMs also know that a standard gaming session is nothing but unending waves of enemies with no plot, exploration, or skill challenges to break up the monotony.

The idea that supposed "all day" classes have any advantage over limited resource classes is a myth of the system. The Fighters in your example are quickly going to run out of the buffs that allow them to be functional (like flight), as well as hit points, at which point they die. No/unlimited resource classes only have an edge when the average system mastery at the table is low and the limited resource characters don't know how to properly manage their resources.

[Barstro]

The idea that supposed "all day" classes have any advantage over limited resource classes is a myth of the system.

Oh, I agree. I was simply pointing out my personal preference based on how the "real world" works, and showing that such a scenario never happens in the game; rendering my preference moot.

[Kurald Galain]

a Wizard will run out of spells in the first few minutes.

Daze cantrip says hello :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

The idea that supposed "all day" classes have any advantage over limited resource classes is a myth of the system.

It often is, but I posit that it's really not supposed to be. Running out of spells before you run out of combats should be a real possibility and the players should be forced to manage resources - investing in pearls/staves, playing smart instead of going nova (save for desperate measures) and yes, relying on the martial classes and skill checks as much as possible.

While I'm not in favor of many choices 5e made, removing bonus spells in favor of weaker at-wills is one I'm not entirely opposed to.

[Honest Tiefling]

I thought that the Witch being Intelligence based made sense. I admit to being biased to Intelligence based casting, but I always assumed that witches had minimal contact with their patrons. That's why they aren't even terribly sure WHAT their patrons are. They get a vague sense of it and free spells included in an adorable, fuzzy package. The rest they have to figure out for their themselves, the patrons aren't leaving behind dogma or quests or shrines to meditate at. They've got things to do, and telling you how to use your own magic isn't one of them.

That being said, if a player came to me with a Charisma or a Wisdom based archetype, I'd probably be okay with including that homebrew. I really cannot say that I would view the witches as a particularly homogeneous group.

[Gnaeus]

The idea that supposed "all day" classes have any advantage over limited resource classes is a myth of the system. The Fighters in your example are quickly going to run out of the buffs that allow them to be functional (like flight), as well as hit points, at which point they die. No/unlimited resource classes only have an edge when the average system mastery at the table is low and the limited resource characters don't know how to properly manage their resources.

I won the Cheesegrinder one year with a Witch. Contributed meaningfully to something like 24 consecutive optimized encounters at CR of party level +3-4.

Then there is WLD. Some versions, by the rules, have random encounters with large chances of occurring every hour, regardless of precautions.

Those are unusual in game, sure. But they do happen.

The way savvier DMs do it in more normal games is to have repercussions to short days. If you rest, or fail to kill the target within time, the bad guys escape with the princess. The ritual happens in 24 hours. If you don't stop it, it happens.

Why are we talking about fighters? The right kind of maneuver user can go forever, especially with a wand of CLW to top off.


Daze cantrip says hello :smalltongue:

Daze is good. Against low CR humanoids. Slumber is better, with no cr limit, better effect, no type limit. Evil Eye effectively has no save, no cr limit, no type limit. Misfortune works against almost anything but swarms.

Game I am in now is currently level 2. Witch and Hunter. Hunter pet has DR 5/-. Our one magic item is a wand of CLW. We have fought probably 6 encounters so far, including one well above CR. Still at full HP. I have cast one spell. We are about to enter level 2. No rests for us. Many encounters were low level undead, vulnerable to misfortune, not to daze.

[Ssalarn]

Why are we talking about fighters? The right kind of maneuver user can go forever, especially with a wand of CLW to top off.


Because the poster I was responding to specifically used Fighters in his example.



I won the Cheesegrinder one year with a Witch. Contributed meaningfully to something like 24 consecutive optimized encounters at CR of party level +3-4.

Then there is WLD. Some versions, by the rules, have random encounters with large chances of occurring every hour, regardless of precautions.

Those are unusual in game, sure. But they do happen.

The way savvier DMs do it in more normal games is to have repercussions to short days. If you rest, or fail to kill the target within time, the bad guys escape with the princess. The ritual happens in 24 hours. If you don't stop it, it happens.


I wasn't supporting the 15 minute adventuring day, I was saying that only low system mastery players will find that non-resource characters or unlimited resource characters have any advantage over limited resource characters in a normal adventuring day. Well played Wizards can maximize the benefits of their cantrips, leverage superior crafting capabilities, and take advantage of their broader array of options to resolve encounters more effectively than the Witch. This is simply the reality of the system WotC created and Paizo inherited. The lower the average party system mastery, the better unlimited resource classes look, but that doesn't mean the potential of the classes changes.

[Kurald Galain]

Daze is good. Against low CR humanoids. Slumber is better, with no cr limit, better effect, no type limit. Evil Eye effectively has no save, no cr limit, no type limit. Misfortune works against almost anything but swarms.
Slumber is absolutely better than Daze, to the point where it makes people want to ban the witch class. Misfortune is about the as strong (Daze has a better effect, but Misf has less targeting restrictions, and it can be cackled). Evil Eye is substantially weaker.

That's because giving a -2 is just not nearly as impressive as removing someone's next action. Also, note that Evil Eye is mind-affecting, so it doesn't work on e.g. undead.

A witch spamming Eye is about as useful as a wizard spamming Acid Splash, which is to say "not very". And that's unfortunate, because the default strategy for beginning witch and wizard players appears to be spamming precisely these two spells.

[Andreaz]

It's honestly bugged me a little that they cast from Int rather than Wis. Their fluff and pseudo-divine mechanics don't seem to make them particularly studious, aside from all the herbology and wilderness lore they have to learn I guess. I suppose that's enough to make them Int-based, but I see that stuff as more being tied to awareness of the world - which would be Wisdom - and would have given us a Wis-based arcane caster for whom the attribute actually made sense.Witch doctor and shaman lore in our world -medicine- is much closer to arcane magic than divine. It's formulaic and brought upon by study, and even the pactual nature of their dealings with spirits and reverence stem from knowledge of their natures instead of anything resembling faith.

[Psyren]

Slumber is absolutely better than Daze, to the point where it makes people want to ban the witch class. Misfortune is about the as strong (Daze has a better effect, but Misf has less targeting restrictions, and it can be cackled). Evil Eye is substantially weaker.

That's because giving a -2 is just not nearly as impressive as removing someone's next action. Also, note that Evil Eye is mind-affecting, so it doesn't work on e.g. undead.

A witch spamming Eye is about as useful as a wizard spamming Acid Splash, which is to say "not very". And that's unfortunate, because the default strategy for beginning witch and wizard players appears to be spamming precisely these two spells.

The big advantage to Evil Eye is that it is Will Partial. You can activate it as a standard, cackle as your move action and be guaranteed at least 2 rounds of -4 to one of several attributes on most targets. This means that you can debuff bosses and other high-save characters with it, whereas another hex or spell might easily be a wasted action - and you only have to cast it once while spending your move actions to keep it going. Sure the mind-affecting tag sucks, but given the nerfs to things like Mind Blank and Pro: Evil in PF, it's not a deal-breaker either.

[mostholycerebus]

I played a Witch a few levels, they are definitely better at low level. You dont run out of effect at 2nd combat of the day.

At mid-levels, the Wizard is generally better especially if they branch onto some PrCs. Witch PrCs generally suck for hexes.


You are also forgetting the totally awesome Scarred Witchdoctor AcF that allows Orcs/Half-Orcs to use Con as their casting stat. That's right, you are a barbarian that thinks he is a wizard who is ACTUALLY A WIZARD!!!!

But will have less spells per day, because Bonus Spells still key off INT. Some good hexes and feats still key off INT per RAW. They would probably make a killer Gish though.

[Kurald Galain]

The big advantage to Evil Eye is that it is Will Partial. You can activate it as a standard, cackle as your move action and be guaranteed at least 2 rounds of -4 to one of several attributes on most targets.
Yes, I get that.

It's only -2 though, not -4. It only becomes -4 at level eight, and by then it has some stiff competition from the fourth level spells being thrown around. Aside from that, level eight casters simply don't run out of spells any more. Frankly, buffing your allies is a more effective use of your actions, as is using Slumber (against anything not immune to it).

[Ellowryn]

But will have less spells per day, because Bonus Spells still key off INT. Some good hexes and feats still key off INT per RAW. They would probably make a killer Gish though.

Which is something that irritates me to no end because if such a thing was intentional then why did they bother to key some stuff off of Con and not all? It reads more like an editing error but after all these years there has been no faq or mention of it. I mean why bother to make an interesting ACF of a class that was already interesting but weaker than the other prepared casters and then purposefully nerf it by making it a split caster stat (and for a race* that has a PENALTY to the second stat too).

*Yes half-orcs and humans (with a feat) can take it, but it was made for pure Orcs.

[Ssalarn]

Which is something that irritates me to no end because if such a thing was intentional then why did they bother to key some stuff off of Con and not all? It reads more like an editing error but after all these years there has been no faq or mention of it. I mean why bother to make an interesting ACF of a class that was already interesting but weaker than the other prepared casters and then purposefully nerf it by making it a split caster stat (and for a race* that has a PENALTY to the second stat too).

*Yes half-orcs and humans (with a feat) can take it, but it was made for pure Orcs.

They haven't errata'd it because the book was a failure. There just wasn't enough interest in it to justify spending additional time on it; that's why after 4 years there's only been 6 official FAQs and no errata. They only do errata when they anticipate a second print run, and the ARG didn't sell well enough to earn a 2nd print run. And the Scarred Witch Doctor is actually an orc archetype, so it's not even technically material for a core race (though half-orcs can access it), so it's so far down on their radar that it may never be addressed.

[Psyren]

Yes, I get that.

It's only -2 though, not -4. It only becomes -4 at level eight, and by then it has some stiff competition from the fourth level spells being thrown around. Aside from that, level eight casters simply don't run out of spells any more. Frankly, buffing your allies is a more effective use of your actions, as is using Slumber (against anything not immune to it).

-2 prior to level 8 is plenty useful. These are the levels where Shaken and Sicken can win a battle for you, and it stacks with those too.

Of course buffing your allies is more effective - that's why buffs go in the limited slots, while this is at-will. When you want to save your guns for later but still want to contribute and speed up a fight, -2 AC or -2 to attack rolls (read: +2 to all your allies' AC), with no save and no SR, is a fine way to do so. And unlike Slumber, there is no chance of wasting your action provided you're not trying to zap a mind-immune creature.

[Razo1204]

I've had a lot of fun playing a hedge witch as the primary healer of the group. I tend use my hexes in combat and save my spells for removing the nasty stuff or restoring hp. An added bonus is that I have enough skill points to be a face and a scout thanks to the high Int. It's also worth mentioning that in this campaign wands don't exist.

[Kurald Galain]

-2 prior to level 8 is plenty useful. These are the levels where Shaken and Sicken can win a battle for you, and it stacks with those too.

Only if you look at these in a vacuum.

Because the issue is not one of spell slots, but one of action economy. You only get a few standard actions during combat, so you need to compare these powers/spells to other options you could be taking. And it turns out that both witch and wizard can do much more useful things than giving out a -2 (or a shake or sicken).

If you do the math on it, even in an outlier case where your enemy saves on 3+, then using Slumber is still going to be better than using Evil Eye. Why? Well, EE gives the enemy a 10% chance to miss his attacks, whereas Slumber gives the enemy a 10% chance to stop attacking and stop moving and be vulnerable to coup de grace. And that's the worst case scenario, because most enemies don't have nearly as good a will save as that.

Likewise, instead of throwing EE and Slumber the next turn, if you do the math, your success rate is going to be better if you simply open with Slumber, and if it fails repeat it next turn using Accursed Hex. That's the point; EE may look appealing, but there's practically always something better you could do with your actions. It's a trap, just like acid splash.

[Psyren]

Only if you look at these in a vacuum.

Because the issue is not one of spell slots, but one of action economy. You only get a few standard actions during combat, so you need to compare these powers/spells to other options you could be taking. And it turns out that both witch and wizard can do much more useful things than giving out a -2 (or a shake or sicken).

If you do the math on it, even in an outlier case where your enemy saves on 3+, then using Slumber is still going to be better than using Evil Eye. Why? Well, EE gives the enemy a 10% chance to miss his attacks, whereas Slumber gives the enemy a 10% chance to stop attacking and stop moving and be vulnerable to coup de grace. And that's the worst case scenario, because most enemies don't have nearly as good a will save as that.

Likewise, instead of throwing EE and Slumber the next turn, if you do the math, your success rate is going to be better if you simply open with Slumber, and if it fails repeat it next turn using Accursed Hex. That's the point; EE may look appealing, but there's practically always something better you could do with your actions. It's a trap, just like acid splash.

But you're the one looking in a vacuum here. Slumber is absolutely the better option against a weak-willed opponent - but against one who isn't, it's likely a wasted action. Evil Eye is almost never a wasted action because it works even when saved, so unless you're up against something that's immune to mind-affecting entirely (which are usually obvious to begin with - constructs, vermin, oozes etc., cluing you in to try something else) you'll be able to contribute without touching your spells. In addition, there are also monsters susceptible to mind-affecting but immune to sleep effects - Slumber is useless against a lowly Elf or Drow, or even a Half-Elf, or a Dragon etc., while Evil Eye will either have a multiplicative effect on the party's damage or be akin to a mass protection spell on everyone that stacks with all their existing AC buffs.

Second, there is the metagame effect Slumber has. As you've noted, it's a great hex - so great that it leads some GMs to want to ban the entire class. Not everyone wants to steal the party's thunder like that - Evil Eye is a great way for a Witch to pull their punches while still benefiting the group. Even when they don't ban it, no GM is simply going to want their session boss (or gods forbid, their BBEG) failing one roll and snoring his life away. Not saying they would fudge their save or cheat to keep that from happening (though you and I both know that some would do exactly that,) but a likely outcome is that they would pump their will save to make that scenario as unlikely as reasonably possible.

Third, let's say you land that Slumber. All the enemy needs is one slap from a comrade before your allies go and bam, 24-hour immunity. I won't outright say your Hex was wasted, since you did trade an action with one of them, but in terms of impact on the battle there wasn't much - and if their initiative comes after that, you didn't even keep them from acting at all. Evil Eye meanwhile is unremovable; if you penalize that enemy's attacks, he is going to stay that way for as long as you can cackle/fight and could even save one of your comrades from peril, whereas putting them to sleep and getting them woken up is going to inconvenience them for a round if that.

[Barstro]

Evil Eye meanwhile is unremovable; if you penalize that enemy's attacks, he is going to stay that way for as long as you can cackle/fight and could even save one of your comrades from peril, whereas putting them to sleep and getting them woken up is going to inconvenience them for a round if that.

And on the next round, the Witch uses Evil Eye: Defense to effectively give the party a +2 (+4) to attacks. A lot of fun can be had without any saving throws.

[Loki Eremes]

You Sirs, convinced me :smallbiggrin:

Ill be playing a Witch the next campaing, from lvl 1 to 20.


HEY! i know this is a RAI of mine but how would yo rule it?
- The Swamp Hag (sp) & the Swamp Grasp (su) hexes?

Is it possible to the first to overcome the effects of the second? I mean, it makes sense, but making sense is not the same as RAW hehe.

[Psyren]

HEY! i know this is a RAI of mine but how would yo rule it?
- The Swamp Hag (sp) & the Swamp Grasp (su) hexes?

Is it possible to the first to overcome the effects of the second? I mean, it makes sense, but making sense is not the same as RAW hehe.

I'd say yes, but please don't actually take these hexes :smallyuk:

[Andreaz]

[...] Evil Eye is a great way for a Witch to pull their punches while still benefiting the group.[...]And I can vouch from personal experience how much of a lifesaver this is. At level 6 through 10 almost every time our frontline got hit by something, it was by a margin of 3 to 5 points. A -2 to that pretty much halves how many attacks will connect, for example (if it hit on a 16+ it now hits on a 18+, 3 numbers instead of 5).

Do you consider 50% miss chance a strong defensive buff? Then Evil Eye is a strong defensive debuff whenever the opposition doesn't overpower you significantly. At level 8 it gets better. Even an enemy that would commonly hit you on an 8 will have to roll 12 to hit, a 30%~ reduction in incoming attacks.

And for those enemies that do overpower you significantly the witch will cast spells.

[Barstro]

Ill be playing a Witch the next campaing, from lvl 1 to 20.

At a minimum, I suggest;
Evil Eye
Cackle
Misfortune
Don't waste a Hex on the Healing one. I think the Greater Hex version is worth it, though.
Ice Tomb

Accursed Hex
Split Hex

This is enough to help the party without overshadowing. Then get some spells to prevent TPK and/or aid roleplaying. Frankly, I used Slumber Hex only for roleplaying purposes or to prevent TPK.

[Honest Tiefling]

Good sir, might I reccomend this fine handbook? (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=480.0) It is missing newer material, but should give you an overview of the basics.

[atemu1234]

You are also forgetting the totally awesome Scarred Witchdoctor AcF that allows Orcs/Half-Orcs to use Con as their casting stat. That's right, you are a barbarian that thinks he is a wizard who is ACTUALLY A WIZARD!!!!

Con-casting is fun.

[Loki Eremes]

I'd say yes, but please don't actually take these hexes :smallyuk:

I understand Swamp Hag to be almost useless and only flavourfull, But is Swamg Grasp really that bad? i mean, thats a lot of Difficult terrain in 3 or 4 lvls and you can set it almost wherever you like.


And I can vouch from personal experience how much of a lifesaver this is. At level 6 through 10 almost every time our frontline got hit by something, it was by a margin of 3 to 5 points. A -2 to that pretty much halves how many attacks will connect, for example (if it hit on a 16+ it now hits on a 18+, 3 numbers instead of 5).

Do you consider 50% miss chance a strong defensive buff? Then Evil Eye is a strong defensive debuff whenever the opposition doesn't overpower you significantly. At level 8 it gets better. Even an enemy that would commonly hit you on an 8 will have to roll 12 to hit, a 30%~ reduction in incoming attacks.

And for those enemies that do overpower you significantly the witch will cast spells.

Yes indeed. I dont know how many times i missed a blow cause of a power attack of 1 or 2 points.


At a minimum, I suggest;
Evil Eye
Cackle
Misfortune
Don't waste a Hex on the Healing one. I think the Greater Hex version is worth it, though.
Ice Tomb

Accursed Hex
Split Hex

This is enough to help the party without overshadowing. Then get some spells to prevent TPK and/or aid roleplaying. Frankly, I used Slumber Hex only for roleplaying purposes or to prevent TPK.

Ty!, as my DM allowed 3.5 flaws, ill hace extra hex if necesary


Con-casting is fun.

From the point of optimization and survival: yes.
But it makes practically no sense to bend the universe at your will with your body fat. :smallbiggrin:



Good sir, might I reccomend this fine handbook? (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=480.0) It is missing newer material, but should give you an overview of the basics.

Yup, i just recently found it. thanks man.



But i have one more doubt: FAMILIARS
That guide talk about familiars but not the improved versions.
Which do you recommend? Is it a well crafted homunculus a good choice for this feat?

[Segev]

If your alignment is compatible, I suggest a cacodaemon. The little sphereoids have a good telepathic radius, and further have the ability to infect people with a disease that makes their telepathic range "infinite" wrt those who have it. You'll want to cure people of it ASAP, but it's good for turning a post-hoc remove disease into a means of walkie-talkying with your rogue while he's scouting.

[Psyren]

I understand Swamp Hag to be almost useless and only flavourfull, But is Swamg Grasp really that bad? i mean, thats a lot of Difficult terrain in 3 or 4 lvls and you can set it almost wherever you like.

It's good early on but difficult terrain ceases to be a meaningful impediment very quickly into your career. The best Hexes - like Slumber or Misfortune - stay useful all the way up. I would only take Swamp Grasp if retraining was allowed, and likely not even then because at low levels there are a lot of other useful hexes competing for your attention.



But it makes practically no sense to bend the universe at your will with your body fat. :smallbiggrin:

The fluff is actually much cooler (and more frightening) than that. Your power comes from pain, ritual scarification and piercings - more Con means you can cut deeper or warp your flesh more, creating the bolder/more intricate runes that represent your most powerful spells, as well as endure the dizzying pain needed to bolster their potency to further heights. You don't actually take damage from this mechanically, but your GM might reward you for roleplaying the sizzles, scratches and screams coming from your tent at night.



But i have one more doubt: FAMILIARS
That guide talk about familiars but not the improved versions.
Which do you recommend? Is it a well crafted homunculus a good choice for this feat?

I personally wouldn't, because you then have to blow crafting feats to make it on top of using Improved Familiar to transfer your familiar abilities to it, and then if anything happens you have to recreate it from scratch. I'd just stick with one of the other Improved Familiars, or maybe even a standard familiar with an archetype.

[Gnaeus]

At a minimum, I suggest;
Evil Eye
Cackle
Misfortune
Don't waste a Hex on the Healing one. I think the Greater Hex version is worth it, though.
Ice Tomb

Accursed Hex
Split Hex

This is enough to help the party without overshadowing. Then get some spells to prevent TPK and/or aid roleplaying. Frankly, I used Slumber Hex only for roleplaying purposes or to prevent TPK.

Mostly agree. Also Fortune in the right campaign. I was in a group once with 8 people, of whom 6 were muggles and #7 was a low level elf caster who used his bow in most fights. With that many PCs, even healing becomes a little better. In games where 1 is a fumble, fortune (and misfortune) also become much better.

[Barstro]

fortune (and misfortune) also become much better.

Unless they changed the rule, Fortune is only once per round and you have to declare its use before the initial role. I fail to see high value in that unless it is for a saving throw that you know is coming up. Too situational in my book.

EDIT: Of course, you could use the cheese of using Fortune on all party members and then Cackle-ing the entire day. But that is just horrible roleplaying. I'd also suggest that it is not a good battle-buff due to the required round per use. It fails pre-battle as well, since you have to keep Cackle up. That kind of noise will ruin a surprise, cause the enemy to attack while you are trying to buff everyone, and use up movement actions.

[Psyren]

Unless they changed the rule, Fortune is only once per round and you have to declare its use before the initial role. I fail to see high value in that unless it is for a saving throw that you know is coming up. Too situational in my book

A 1/round reroll is very useful, even if you have to declare it in advance. For a martial character about to attempt an attack or CMB check of any kind, they have no reason not to declare, and if you don't declare it and no saving throw comes up, you are no worse off.

Casters have less use for it but again, they lose nothing by holding onto it.

I prefer it for summons or other temporary minions though, as you can just get new ones after the combat is over and they will be eligible for Fortune (and Ward) again.

[Barstro]

I prefer it for summons or other temporary minions though, as you can just get new ones after the combat is over and they will be eligible for Fortune (and Ward) again.

I ALWAYS forget the whole "Summons" part of it. Not sure why.

Yes, that is a good use for the Hex.

[Loki Eremes]

A 1/round reroll is very useful, even if you have to declare it in advance. For a martial character about to attempt an attack or CMB check of any kind, they have no reason not to declare, and if you don't declare it and no saving throw comes up, you are no worse off.

Casters have less use for it but again, they lose nothing by holding onto it.

I prefer it for summons or other temporary minions though, as you can just get new ones after the combat is over and they will be eligible for Fortune (and Ward) again.


I ALWAYS forget the whole "Summons" part of it. Not sure why.

Yes, that is a good use for the Hex.


Excuse me....I guess summons translate to well....."summon monster" and such.
But what are you reffering to as "temporary minions"?

Also. Does Swamp Grasp, as it was with Swamp Hag, combines with a Ranger's "Favored Terrain (ex: Swamp)" class feature? :smallconfused:

Because i just imagined a Witch moving 90ft away from a ranger giving bonuses when scouting with that hex :smallbiggrin:

[Barstro]

Excuse me....I guess summons translate to well....."summon monster" and such.
But what are you reffering to as "temporary minions"?

"Summon Monster", "Summon Nature's Ally", "Summon (whatever else)", or any other way to get people on your side.

My issue with Fortune is that (aside from normally coming up with something better to do in the round) it can be used only once per day per person (as extended by Cackle). This means you have to figure out which battle to use it in. This is not true of Summoned things, since they will usually be around for only one battle anyway. Using another Summon later on allows the Witch to use Fortune again.

[Psyren]

Excuse me....I guess summons translate to well....."summon monster" and such.
But what are you reffering to as "temporary minions"?

I was just thinking of summons when I wrote that. Other "temporary minions" include things that work for you for awhile and then you don't have to worry about them the rest of the day, like dominated creatures, but putting Fortune on those sounds like a bad idea.


Also. Does Swamp Grasp, as it was with Swamp Hag, combines with a Ranger's "Favored Terrain (ex: Swamp)" class feature? :smallconfused:

Because i just imagined a Witch moving 90ft away from a ranger giving bonuses when scouting with that hex :smallbiggrin:

I refuse to encourage any chicanery that relies on such an abysmal hex, therefore I decline to respond :smalltongue:

[Loki Eremes]

I refuse to encourage any chicanery that relies on such an abysmal hex, therefore I decline to respond :smalltongue:

Oh come on! :smallbiggrin:.... meh ill take that as a "yes"



Aaaaand im back with more of Witch questions!!!

1) Alternative-Multiclassing: Lets say Witch (Sorcerer A-M): Grants bloodline powers.

.....A- Harrow Bloodline = i really dont understand 9th lvl power, like....at all.
....."You take on superficial traits featured on the card and gain a +4 enhancement bonus to the ability score associated with the card's suit."...wha..?

.....B- Arcane Bloodline = 1st lvl power.
....."This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item." - Is this basically saying "NOPE" to a Witch or is it me? Or MAYBE just implies this feature works as the Wizard's
....."Arcane Bond", but only granting you the item instead of the familiar OR the item?

.....C- Fey Bloodline =
.....Idk, I find it interesting, what do you think about it?

[Psyren]

Oh come on! :smallbiggrin:.... meh ill take that as a "yes"



Aaaaand im back with more of Witch questions!!!

1) Alternative-Multiclassing: Lets say Witch (Sorcerer A-M): Grants bloodline powers.

.....A- Harrow Bloodline = i really dont understand 9th lvl power, like....at all.
....."You take on superficial traits featured on the card and gain a +4 enhancement bonus to the ability score associated with the card's suit."...wha..?

.....B- Arcane Bloodline = 1st lvl power.
....."This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item." - Is this basically saying "NOPE" to a Witch or is it me? Or MAYBE just implies this feature works as the Wizard's
....."Arcane Bond", but only granting you the item instead of the familiar OR the item?

.....C- Fey Bloodline =
.....Idk, I find it interesting, what do you think about it?

A) This line is referring to a Harrow Deck (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/goods-and-services/toys-games-puzzles#TOC-Cards), first appearing in Adventurer's Armory. This is a 54-card deck split into 6 suits of 9 cards each. You can approximate it ether with dice (roll 1d6 followed by 1d10), or by taking a regular 52-card deck of playing cards and adding the two Jokers back in. The ability scores associated with each suit are found here. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/h/harrowing)

B) As written you'd get a second familiar. Normally when you multiclass two familiar-granting classes, they simply stack, however VMC is a little weird in this regard (since you aren't actually multiclassing) and so Paizo needs to clarify what will happen if you do this.

C) For a Witch it isn't terrible, but the delayed acquisition on most of the powers makes it a tough sell, especially with Witches as feat-starved as they are.