Player's wont stop dying to Old White Death.

[Gizmogidget]

I finally pulled out The Rise of Tiamat and we took a strike at it. However things quickly went downhill. First the big bad nasty tribe champion was literally doing a third of the Hit points of the 8th level paladin in a single hit, and had nearly twice the hit points of our paladin. Eventually the other players intervened because one more hit literally would have brought the paladin down to about negative thirteen.

So they went down to the big bad Old White Death, and were completely slaughtered the first time around. I had the big bad cast Sleep in a 7th level spell slot which immediately put the cleric to sleep. Then the party won initiative and they did an okay amount of damage. Than Old White Death uses his breath weapon, brings the paladin to 4 HP, the sorcerer into the negatives, and kills the cleric.

So I ran the whole battle again. And again things went horribly with all the players deciding to try and buff the pally. The sorcerer cast enlarge on our pally, followed by a bless spell from the now alive cleric. They do about 1/4 of his hit points, and then all of them fail their saves against breath weapon and die instantaneously.

EDIT: Here are the HP values of all the characters
Pally-62 HP AC 18
Assassin-51 HP AC 15
Cleric of Life- 45 HP AC 10
Sorcerer- 50 HP AC 11

There seem to be two problems specifically. First off in both battles the paladin kept rolling 2s and 1s and it took him nearly 5 turns to get in one hit. Secondly the sorcerer attempted to hit it with his spells but could not surmount his AC, the cleric was unable to do much because she was a healbot, and finally the assassin managed to get past the dragon and get a sneak attack for a piddling 11 damage in total. So problem 1, characters keep rolling horribly. Problem 2 players have trouble remembering abilities, as they have played all kinds of levels and two different editions, but they seem to forgo using the bonuses their abilities provide them. I have tried to solve this before however little seems to work. The party consists of younger kids, including my little brother. My brother is by far the most experienced, having fought through and survived the tomb of horrors, however the one playing the cleric has a humongous issue with remembering her abilities. I have already ruled out playing a more-rule lite rpg because in all reality I can't afford it.

[Socko525]

Pally-62 HP AC 18
Assassin-51 HP AC 15
Cleric of Life- 45 HP AC 10
Sorcerer- 50 HP AC 11



My first Question would be why does a life cleric have AC 10? Life Clerics can wear heavy armor and wield shields, I would think he'd be at 18 AC as well. Also if your party is level 8, I it's not unreasonable for both the paladin and the life cleric to have access to full plate, bumping both of their ACs up to level 20.

Also the sorcerer only has 12 or 13 Dex? I think part of the problem based on the numbers would be optimization of ability scores. I find it interesting that the assassin and sorcerer have more health than the cleric.

Has the paladin been factoring in his aura that adds Cha to saves as well? That could potentially help the party survive that breath weapon attack.

[Ace Jackson]

To what you attribute as the first problem, bad dice isn't a bug, it's a feature.

Problem number two is a legitimate issue though. I'd recommend having the player's make flash cards of their major class abilities, spells, and the like so that they can keep them with their character sheets.

Another problem I see. Why in the world does the cleric have an ac of 10?! That would require no armor, no shield, and no dex bonus at all. The life domain has heavy armor proficiency, starting equipment at level one includes a shield and scale mail or chain mail. There is no reason for an 8th level cleric to have 10 ac.

Next issue, why are they fighting a dragon? I admit I haven't played Rise yet, still in the first town in HotDQ, but it's almost never a good idea to fight a dragon if you could, A. sneak around it, B. Diplomancy your way past it, C. Ignore it, D. run away, or E. get allies.

Also, dragons have legendary Resistance up to 3 times a day right? The cleric could, and probably should, burn those out using sacred flame, this would result in three scenarios: The dragon saves, the dragon loses a legendary resistance and saves, or the dragon fails and takes another 2d8 damage. (Also, a life cleric should be adding a d8 radiant to all weapon attacks at this level if I recall correctly, no cleric in this edition should simply be a healbot.)

Finally, where are they fighting? If it's an open field, there shouldn't be a scenario where they survive, the dragon would just fly out of melee and rain down it's breath weapon. If it's a cave, let them use it, maybe the Assassin could pull a trick shot, the sorcerer target a stalactite formation over the dragon's head, the party doesn't need to make the save dc of the dragon's breath weapon, just enough in athletics or acrobatics to dive behind cover. The paladin and cleric could pray for a divine intervention. If they can't win a straight up fight, let them try something else. The doctor of Doctor who doesn't fight most of the time for one example, leave room for more then the codified combat rules if the party can't win with them.

Post writing check, someone else has pointed out the cleric AC. But still, I think there's enough here that I might still be offering something.

[Bubzors]

I am not familiar with the module, but I do agree with the poster above that the cleric should definitely have higher AC. Also you keep mentioning negative health when that is no longer a thing in 5E. You get to zero then start making death saving throws.

Dragon breath attacks can be devastating I know. Maybe have the party spread to avoid all getting hit or concentrate on the paladin as he gives his charisma to saves. Also even if the cleric is a heal bot he can still prepare spells more suitable to the encounter. And can spam that one cleric damaging cantrip I can't think of the name of.

[DireSickFish]

You should strongly hint at exploring the rest of the cave so they get the dragon slaying arrows and the ring of frost resistance. If the Assassin opens with the slaying arrows and the paladin is swinging for the fences blowing smites they should drop it below its "running away" amount rather quickly.

Also why is the dragon casting any spells at all? Is the white dragon not the typical one from the Monster Manual? Because giving dragons spells is an alternate rule that just makes them even more powerful.

The players should either avoid casting spells with saving throws or spam saving throw spells to eat through the legendary saves as fast as possible. There really is no middle ground here as legendary saves are brutal and need to be worked around by the spell-casters.

The assassin should be sneaking in first to scout and get a surprise round on the dragon. It will also help with splitting up the party so they don't get breath weapon-ed to death.

What level 3 and 4 spells do your cleric and sorcerer have prepared/know? Bad spell selection will make them worthless in this kind of a fight. Even a scaled up Scorching ray should be putting the hurt on the dragon.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Next issue, why are they fighting a dragon? I admit I haven't played Rise yet, still in the first town in HotDQ, but it's almost never a good idea to fight a dragon if you could, A. sneak around it, B. Diplomancy your way past it, C. Ignore it, D. run away, or E. get allies.


I read it as: they're approaching this like a challenge or a puzzle. They want to kill the dragon because the players want to prove they can kill a dragon. Why else would they keep running through the same battle?

Hopefully the 10 AC is a typo. But it's true that no cleric is a healbot anymore. There are so many things she could be doing, even without optimising her list of spells prepared for dragon slaying.

[Socko525]

This is all fresh in my mind having just completed this part of Rise of Tiamat with my group. Albeit we played through all of HotDQ so we had all of the magic items that you acquire in that campaign. Perhaps giving the party a few of the magic items contained in HotDQ might help them? You can find the information in the free to download HotDQ supplement pdf.

You are supposed to fight the dragon, however there some circumstances leading up to it. Did they meet...Maccath the Crimson? (or whatever her name was). I believe she has a ring of cold resistance and arrows of dragon slaying that she can give to the party.

For those who haven't played, once the dragon gets to about half health I believe it's supposed to flee.

[TheOOB]

As mentioned by others, your parties AC is really low which tells of a certain lack of understanding of the game mechanics. Also your party was in Waterdeep before this adventure, so they should have had the chance to spend the mountains of gold they earned in HotDQ to get some gear, even some magic items. Tactics are a huge part of a dragon fight as well.

The team I was running killed him in 1.5 rounds, Hariszan(sp), the greatsword from the last book was a major help to the party.

[Easy_Lee]

The party consists of younger kids, including my little brother. My brother is by far the most experienced, having fought through and survived the tomb of horrors, however the one playing the cleric has a humongous issue with remembering her abilities. I have already ruled out playing a more-rule lite rpg because in all reality I can't afford it.

I believe that this is the issue. HotDQ is a tough campaign, it's unforgiving, and children are usually not good at unforgiving games.

Just speaking from personal experience, I started playing EverQuest way back in 99, but I was too young to actually be good at the game. I never made it past level 18, because it took too much patience and teamwork to go far in the game and I had not yet developed either. It wasn't until years later, when I came back, that I was able to master the system.

You might have to make the campaign a bit easier on them. Alternatively, you might need to strongly encourage them to make certain beneficial choices. If this is the biggest problem you have with a group of kids (rather than them acting like munchkins for instance), then I'd say you have it good.

[coredump]

Remind them to spread out to avoid breath weapon.

[Ruslan]

You whipped out the wrong campaign to spring on a bunch of kids. Rise of Tiamat is a tough, tactical, unforgiving game. Have a complete do-over, and play something else. A simple monster-hunt in a cursed forest, maybe.

[JFahy]

Remind them to spread out to avoid breath weapon.

Story-wise, it's not important for White-Death to die. Not only that,
the way the adventure is written it's not important for Maccath to
be rescued except that it gets you some points with the council. They send you
after her because she knows about the horn but what she tells you about it is
not mentioned (unless I've missed it) and there doesn't seem to be any penalty
for ignorance.


Kids, of course, are not likely to have the mindset of "killing this isn't a primary
objective so let's get out of here" unless you somehow help them get there.

After they've had a dragon fight, you might have more luck getting them to
search their spell lists for specialized buffs - things that help soak the first breath
weapon are a big one. "Half of you lose half your hit points in round one" is
a rough way to start off.

[Ziegander]

That looks like a very unoptimized party with no magic items taking on an encounter that should be difficult for an optimized party with magic items. The breath weapon alone is more than half bull****, honestly, 54 cold damage halved on a Constitution saving throw ****s every member of that party over. Even with good rolls, the party would have to be incredibly lucky to survive. Basically, they'd have to all beat the dragon's initiative and either deal 100 damage in the first round, or some amount less and two or more of them would have to make that really high saving throw in order to not instantly die against the dragon's Cold Breath at the end of the round so that they could finish the job on their next round.

Basically, if the Paladin crit Smites with a 2nd level spell slot, the Assassin surprises the dragon with a successful first round sneak attack, and the Sorcerer empowered twins a Scorching Ray (for ten 2d6 rays, and three re-rolled damage dice), that's 8d8 (36) + Pally Str mod, 10d6 (35) + Asn Dex mod, and ~37 fire damage, the party could deal just enough damage to cause the dragon to run away before it killed them all (except the Paladin) with its breath weapon. And even if they pulled all that off, but rolled below average with their damage, then they might still all die.

[ad_hoc]

Looks like they met their match.

I would start over in a new campaign at level 1.

[CantigThimble]

Zeigander don't forget that the twinned spell has to target something else.

[Ziegander]

Zeigander don't forget that the twinned spell has to target something else.

Pfft, woops yeah, the Paladin would then have to hit with another Smite 2 to bring the total back up to 100+, otherwise you're looking at an almost guaranteed party wipe. So you're looking at a necessary first round, against AC 18, of five successful attack rolls, bare minimum, at least one of which has to be a critical hit with multiple extra damage dice, and technically two of them have to be (either that or an Assassin surprise sneak attack). If every member of the party goes before the dragon, and every member of the party attacks and hits with all of their attacks, and all of them either deal extra damage dice and/or crit, then the party might survive the encounter. If they roll average damage or higher.

[Madfellow]

The real problem here is that Old White Death is an adult white dragon, which is a CR 13 encounter. The party is level 8. If you want to make it more of a fair fight, make him a young white dragon (CR 6), and perhaps throw in his mate (a second young white dragon) to give him backup. Young dragons don't have legendary resistance, legendary actions, or frightful presence, so that should help at the very least.

My general advice for running Rise of Tiamat is, any time the book tells you to use an adult dragon, use a young one instead. Either the designers didn't understand how the CR system is supposed to work or they're just sadistic.

[Gnomes2169]

Well, you have a few char op problems to solve... But there is a DM problem here too.

Arauthator (old white death) is an adult white dragon. He's CR 13 and has 12 charisma, meaning that with the dragon spellcasting variant he will have a single level 4 or lower spell slot to cast in the battle. On top of that, spells cast by dragons are debatably cast at their base level, so the fact that he cast sleep as a level 7 spell was a bit off.

That said, he definitely firs the requirememts for the spellcasting variant, given his raiding of the arcane brotherhood and his traps set in the hallway in front of his den. I would suggest a different spell, however. Perhaps a wall of force (level 4 spell, so his limit) that forces the party to stay in the den, allowing the party a turn to attack him while only dealing with his lair/ legendary actions? Yes, I'm suggesting he uses it non-optimally... Because these kids need all the help they can get. >.>

Edit: And actually, my party has handled the dragons rather well. Sure, they had the Hazirawn and +1 weapons at the time, but it wasn't much more.

[ImSAMazing]

I finally pulled out The Rise of Tiamat and we took a strike at it. However things quickly went downhill. First the big bad nasty tribe champion was literally doing a third of the Hit points of the 8th level paladin in a single hit, and had nearly twice the hit points of our paladin. Eventually the other players intervened because one more hit literally would have brought the paladin down to about negative thirteen.

So they went down to the big bad Old White Death, and were completely slaughtered the first time around. I had the big bad cast Sleep in a 7th level spell slot which immediately put the cleric to sleep. Then the party won initiative and they did an okay amount of damage. Than Old White Death uses his breath weapon, brings the paladin to 4 HP, the sorcerer into the negatives, and kills the cleric.

So I ran the whole battle again. And again things went horribly with all the players deciding to try and buff the pally. The sorcerer cast enlarge on our pally, followed by a bless spell from the now alive cleric. They do about 1/4 of his hit points, and then all of them fail their saves against breath weapon and die instantaneously.

EDIT: Here are the HP values of all the characters
Pally-62 HP AC 18
Assassin-51 HP AC 15
Cleric of Life- 45 HP AC 10
Sorcerer- 50 HP AC 11

There seem to be two problems specifically. First off in both battles the paladin kept rolling 2s and 1s and it took him nearly 5 turns to get in one hit. Secondly the sorcerer attempted to hit it with his spells but could not surmount his AC, the cleric was unable to do much because she was a healbot, and finally the assassin managed to get past the dragon and get a sneak attack for a piddling 11 damage in total. So problem 1, characters keep rolling horribly. Problem 2 players have trouble remembering abilities, as they have played all kinds of levels and two different editions, but they seem to forgo using the bonuses their abilities provide them. I have tried to solve this before however little seems to work. The party consists of younger kids, including my little brother. My brother is by far the most experienced, having fought through and survived the tomb of horrors, however the one playing the cleric has a humongous issue with remembering her abilities. I have already ruled out playing a more-rule lite rpg because in all reality I can't afford it.


You mean the adult white dragon in the air castle? If so, our DM replaced his stats with the stats of a young red dragon. An adult dragon is just to hard for a lvl 8 party.

[Vogonjeltz]

EDIT: Here are the HP values of all the characters
Pally-62 HP AC 18
Assassin-51 HP AC 15
Cleric of Life- 45 HP AC 10
Sorcerer- 50 HP AC 11

The two big problems I'm seeing are low AC and HP from your nominal "tank", the Paladin.

His HP suggests a very low Con score (probably a measily +1, which seems to be no better than the Assassin or Cleric and actually worse than the Sorcerer!).
AC suggests that he's not using a shield, and didn't take the Defense Fighting style.

I'm also surprised that they all failed their saves given that the Paladin grants them all his charisma modifier as a bonus.

[Solovar]

Tomorrow, we will be facing the old white, I do believe we have good chances as the combat has not started yet.
This is our party:

We have a good fighter lvl 9 that does a lot of damage.
We have a rogue/sorcerer who spider climbs and is good with her crossbow. (she can't use those arrows crafted by the thiefling and no one else has a bow).
We also have a warlock and wizard which the wizard is human and can't see so that might a problem because no one has a light source except torched but I don't believe it will help.
Finally, there is the cleric (me), using the death domain. I have a decent 22 AC (magical plate + shield) so that should help. My biggest worry is my dex (0) how ever I am wearing the frost resistance ring which should give me the edge to stay alive.
I do have a plan before combat, to buff up me and the fighter with death ward. Then cast aid at level 5 so that everyone get's 20 more hp. I shall also cast false life at level 4 which will give me around 20 temp HP which brings me up to 110 hp plus 20 temp hp.
Now if I can roll good init and cast bless on most and then they can sprayed that will be helpful.
I plan on healing the fighter more as I might be too far from the others (1 square = 15ft), so they might drop and I will do my best to thrown them a mass healing word or just healing word, depending of the damage that was taking, cure wounds at higher level.
If all is good, and I am not in melee with the dragon, I have sacred flame and chill touch and I can cast flame strike at level 5.
Since I will be concentrating on bless, I won't be able to cast other type of spells that demands concentration.
I am thinking about casting spiritual weapon which can help with the damage.

My main focus will be to keep the fighter healed as much as possible.

[Hopeless]

I've yet to receive the copy I've ordered on this adventure, but have you thought about letting them have access to something granting them resistance to cold?

Heck is there such a thing as a Ring of the Halfling?

Grants the wearer the Lucky trait that halflings are known for allows the wearer to reroll saves and attack rolls if they roll a 1 or 2 having it include damage rolls might be a step too far...

Now I'll go back to reading the core rules again!

[Telok]

As I recall the adventure sets you up to wander through essentially unmapped (for the party) ice tunnels, encountering gangs of kobolds and ice trolls to bluff or fight. The dragon is 85% or more likely to know the adventurers are there (escapees from the encounters or the undetectable magic silent alarm on some treasure). Then the fight occurs in the dragon's prepared ice cave with a hole into the sea for the dragon to hide/escape into.

It's a pretty unforgiving setup. If the dragon chooses to do hit and run combat some acrobatics/athletics checks on ice ledges and ramps can come into play. Plus if the dragon drags one person underwater that's essentially an autokill.

[djreynolds]

Very tough fight.

Have the cleric select protection from energy for himself, that might help. He must be standing so he can and the paladin can stay upright. The assassin needs to shot, hide and move, as the paladin cannot stay in melee all day for the assassin to gain sneak attack.

AFB, can a sorcerer twin protection from energy? Unsure.

Also dex saves suck. Yeah people say they are just damage, but its a lot of damage. And even with the paladin's bonus it may not be enough to make the save, aside from the assassin.

Sleep in a 7th level spell slot. That is a hefty amount so someone is going to go to sleep. And it is 90ft range which is huge.

No one has any conjure spells, so no fodder to absorb the sleep spell.

The cleric has death ward, have him cast it as many slots as possible, it may only be 2 4th level slots at 8th level but it could help and it is a Life Cleric domain spell. Lasts 8 hours.

Might be cheesy, but you could have the paladin cast his find steed if only to use the beast as Sleep Spell fodder, its not much.

The assassin should have evasion, so if you cannot twin protection from energy, at least the cleric and paladin (from the sorcerer) should have it up and running, the sorcerer should be able to do his dirty work well out of range.

The toughest part is the sleep spell, an NPC with some sort of conjure animal or elemental could help with fodder or a scroll found that the sorcerer could cast. 7th level sleep is like, 5d8 + 2d8x6, 17d8... like 136HP almost. Minus the paladin's fodder horse, it is still in the area of 120 maybe. So the cleric and sorcerer are going to bed.

The frost breath is huge, but the cleric has 2 uses of channel divinity for 40HP each time in healing and mass cure wounds. Must keep him standing.

They need an ally, IMO. Someone who could cast conjuring whatever to absorb the sleep spell and buddy up next to the paladin so the cleric can just focus on healing, like a friendly druid. And the assassin can snipe from a distance with allies in the dragon's face.

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Thread Necromancy.