Elan's I.Q.

[IamJoseph]

Okay, this might have been posted at some point, but it has been bugging me for a while. If Elan is the identical twin of Nale, and Elan isn't smart like his brother, there had to be a reason. Well, the reason was that his brother hurt Elan's fragile little baby brain, resulting in Elan having an unnaturally low INT. So what would happen if someone cast a restoration spell on Elan? Wouldn't he get those points back? And if that doesn't do it, what about Heal, or even Regeneration?

[NeonRonin]

I'm not so sure magic would work, as it's been so long since Nale whacked Elan repeatedly in his undeveloped baby skull. Elan probably healed with a lasting dent in his head that wouldn't disappear unless some major surgery was involved- kinda like how a broken bone set incorrectly will heal at a weird angle, and one would have to re-break it and set it again- and it still might not come out right.

My point is, damage like Elan's probably won't be easily repaired.

[factotum]

Also, while they may physically be identical twins, they're clearly mental opposites in every way (one being Chaotic Good, the other Lawful Evil)...the bit about Elan getting whacked in the head as a baby by Nale was pretty much a throwaway joke.

[kerberos]

I'm not so sure magic would work, as it's been so long since Nale whacked Elan repeatedly in his undeveloped baby skull. Elan probably healed with a lasting dent in his head that wouldn't disappear unless some major surgery was involved- kinda like how a broken bone set incorrectly will heal at a weird angle, and one would have to re-break it and set it again- and it still might not come out right.
So you're sugestting that banging Elan's head several times into a wall might be the appropriate remedy. I suspect Roy would agree.

[NeonRonin]

So you're sugestting that banging Elan's head several times into a wall might be the appropriate remedy. I suspect Roy would agree.

Hm. I hadn't thought of it like that. Interesting...:smallamused:

[kerberos]

Hm. I hadn't thought of it like that. Interesting...:smallamused:
I like to bring new perspectives to the debate. Particuarly if they involve violence. :smallbiggrin:

[Green Bean]

I like to bring new perspectives to the debate. Particuarly if they involve violence. :smallbiggrin:

Violence is a new perspective? :smalltongue:

[RobbyPants]

It depends on your point of reference. If you consider everything that happened to Elan during his life, then his Int damage (or drain, because it's permanent) could be reversed with Restoration.

However, if you want to get into some metagaming (as what most of this comic is), then that Int drain Elan took was all back-story, which means that Int is probably Elan's dump stat, and there was no actual "drain" or "damage", but rather, a back-story explanation of why his Int is so low. In that case, he wouldn't be helped by Restoration.

[holywhippet]

I thought about this a while back. I don't think that Elan has a really low INT stat, I think he has a really low WIS stat instead. For example, when he first meets Roy he is able to tell him exactly how to go about trying to gather a party of adventurers. When Durkon tells him that less armour = more stealth he is able to process the information and conclude that nakedness = invisibility. When they are leaving the Oracle it is Elan who points out to Roy that there are, in fact, three gates remaining.

Elan's problem is that he doesn't quite understand when something is a bad idea. That's a low wisdom problem IMO.

[Callista]

Elan's pretty perceptive, though. He notices things--Spot/Listen--and often makes surprisingly accurate observations about things. He's got a lot of intuition. All that balances against the silly plans he tends to make (as you mentioned, whippet)... I think his WIS is maybe a 10 or 12, and INT is maybe an 8. The overall effect is of somebody who's really charismatic... knows people, cares about others, looks good... but doesn't really have much brainpower.

In the real world, I'd guess Elan's IQ to be something like 70--mild MR. The kind of guy who can graduate from high school if he tries really hard, but probably spends his life doing unskilled labor. Elan's CHA is really his saving grace--in our world, he'd be the guy everyone likes to hang out with after a hard day's work, the center of a social crowd just 'cause he knows how to have a good time. He'd be the one telling jokes and doing silly stunts, making peoples' beer come squirting out their noses. :)

[Querzis]

Elan's pretty perceptive, though. He notices things--Spot/Listen--and often makes surprisingly accurate observations about things. He's got a lot of intuition. All that balances against the silly plans he tends to make (as you mentioned, whippet)... I think his WIS is maybe a 10 or 12, and INT is maybe an 8. The overall effect is of somebody who's really charismatic... knows people, cares about others, looks good... but doesn't really have much brainpower.

In the real world, I'd guess Elan's IQ to be something like 70--mild MR. The kind of guy who can graduate from high school if he tries really hard, but probably spends his life doing unskilled labor. Elan's CHA is really his saving grace--in our world, he'd be the guy everyone likes to hang out with after a hard day's work, the center of a social crowd just 'cause he knows how to have a good time.

If he got an int of 8 then he would have an IQ of 80 since the definition of intelligence in DnD is all about IQ. But as far as am concerned, he got low wis and int (not that low but still low, probably just a -1). Everytime hes right, it can be related to his charisma or to the fact that hes a bard.

[NeonRonin]

Wasn't Forrest Gump's I.Q. somewhere in the 60-80 range? Another example of someone a little slow who happens to have a flash of insight just when it's needed. Good movie, and a good character.

I think Elan and Forrest would get along rather well.

[hrak]

you cant just give iq back

[The Extinguisher]

He has an average INT and WIS. He just doesn't use that very often.

Also, what makes you think Nale has a high intelligence?

[Finwe]

He has an average INT and WIS. He just doesn't use that very often.

Also, what makes you think Nale has a high intelligence?



Uh, that's not the way it works. Having a low int or wis doesn't mean that you are incapable of coming up with good a plan or having insight.It just means that you will do so less often than someone who is more intelligent. Elan has a consistent record of doing stupid things, and not thinking too far ahead - suggesting a low-ish int and wisdom.

[holywhippet]

He has an average INT and WIS. He just doesn't use that very often.


Um, I don't think it works like that. Your INT and WIS are part of your character, they define how they act. I can't imagine why a character would choose to act stupid or unwise without cause and Elan is pretty much an open book.



Also, what makes you think Nale has a high intelligence?

Well, relative to Elan anyway.

[Setra]

If he got an int of 8 then he would have an IQ of 80 since the definition of intelligence in DnD is all about IQ. But as far as am concerned, he got low wis and int (not that low but still low, probably just a -1). Everytime hes right, it can be related to his charisma or to the fact that hes a bard.
I do not think it works like that.

What happens if someone manages to get, say, 37 int?

[Axl_Rose]

Sorry to be hideously offtopic but does anyone recall the strip where Elan goes, "I'm participating!" ? I'll delete my post immediately after I find out, thanks and sorry again.

[Finwe]

I do not think it works like that.

What happens if someone manages to get, say, 37 int?


Uh, then according to that system they'd have an IQ of 370. An intelligence of 37 is in the super-human realm, so the correlation isn't really broken.

[Setra]

Uh, then according to that system they'd have an IQ of 370. An intelligence of 37 is in the super-human realm, so the correlation isn't really broken.
I do not believe the system goes past 300.

[jindra34]

I do not believe the system goes past 300.

IT does though no human has been recorded as having an IQ of over 300...

[Setra]

IT does though no human has been recorded as having an IQ of over 300...
Oh...

Incidentally while trying to figure out if I heard correctly I took an IQ test.. I got a 156 :smallbiggrin:

[Icewalker]

There appear to be no links up there, so I guess I'll be the first to say this:

Question Answered. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)

[holywhippet]

I learnt about IQ when I was at University, I think they might have change it a bit though as I was told it only ran from 1 to 200. It's not meant to be an absolute measure of intelligence, it's meant to be a rating compared to the rest of humanity. A score of 100 is literally average - it's what the majority of humans a supposed to be. The stupidest person in the world has a score of 1 (or is it 0 - I forget) while the worlds smartest person has a score of 200. In theory a score over 200 is impossible because it goes against the definition of IQ. Some IQ tests are worthless because they ask trivia questions, to be reliable they shouldn't even be tied down to a particular language.

[Demented]

The only common thing among IQ tests is that they have "IQ" and 100 is the mean. Beyond that, they do all sorts of unreliably weird things.

At best, you can put the same test in front of two people and compare their intelligence by their scores, but beyond that it's mostly numbers and/or statistics. (Statistics and numbers not being exactly the same thing. You can trust the latter.)


That said, Elan seems to run on a percentage of whatever Int he has... much like a downclocked Celeron processor.

[Finwe]

Actually, an IQ test is supposed to be roughly modeled by a bell curve, which never quite reaches 0%. So it is possible though unlikely that someone could have an IQ of 370.

[kerberos]

Actually, an IQ test is supposed to be roughly modeled by a bell curve, which never quite reaches 0%. So it is possible though unlikely that someone could have an IQ of 370.
Or one below 0 *shudders*

[Hazel Firewolf]

Hm. I hadn't thought of it like that. Interesting...:smallamused:

retro- phrenology... just gotta fix some of them bumps on his head is all

[kerberos]

I thought about this a while back. I don't think that Elan has a really low INT stat, I think he has a really low WIS stat instead. For example, when he first meets Roy he is able to tell him exactly how to go about trying to gather a party of adventurers. When Durkon tells him that less armour = more stealth he is able to process the information and conclude that nakedness = invisibility. When they are leaving the Oracle it is Elan who points out to Roy that there are, in fact, three gates remaining.
He is able to process the information erroniously. That indicates a low intelligence, not a decent one. And he quite rarely, makes observatiosn that's actually smart. Most likely he has a low Int and a low WIsdom, though it's likely that his Wisdom is even lower than his Int, say 5 Wisdom, 7 Int.

[CardinalFang]

The only common thing among IQ tests is that they have "IQ" and 100 is the mean. Beyond that, they do all sorts of unreliably weird things.

At best, you can put the same test in front of two people and compare their intelligence by their scores, but beyond that it's mostly numbers and/or statistics. (Statistics and numbers not being exactly the same thing. You can trust the latter.)


That said, Elan seems to run on a percentage of whatever Int he has... much like a downclocked Celeron processor.
That also depends if you take a real IQ test from someone with lots of letters after their name and a very expensive hourly rate, or if you take a 5 minute internet IQ test which wants $4.99 for them to mail you a full analysis of your results, but for free will email you just a number as well as some really annoying spam.


It's kind of hard to tell if Elan's Wis or Int is higher...he has trouble adding, but can keep track of how many times he's said "blah" without losing track. And some of his "narrative imperative" ideas like how to form a party, and his grasp of the dramatic could alternately seem "clever" or "intuitive," thus being either from Int or Wis. I would guess that from the different flashes of intelligence/intuition we've seen from him, his Int and Wis are about even, but not that high.

[Shawnis]

Maybe they can find the same type potion like the one that Haley stole from Belkar that can also fix armor....

[factotum]

I learnt about IQ when I was at University, I think they might have change it a bit though as I was told it only ran from 1 to 200. It's not meant to be an absolute measure of intelligence, it's meant to be a rating compared to the rest of humanity. A score of 100 is literally average - it's what the majority of humans a supposed to be. The stupidest person in the world has a score of 1 (or is it 0 - I forget) while the worlds smartest person has a score of 200. In theory a score over 200 is impossible because it goes against the definition of IQ. Some IQ tests are worthless because they ask trivia questions, to be reliable they shouldn't even be tied down to a particular language.

You're right in that IQ is meant to be a scale with 100 being strictly average, but it's entirely possible for it to go over 200. However, the tests used to MEASURE someone's IQ are simply not reliable when you're talking about the sort of super-genius intellects that would get an IQ of 200 or more, which is why IQs that high are not usually spoken about.

[BisectedBrioche]

I learnt about IQ when I was at University, I think they might have change it a bit though as I was told it only ran from 1 to 200. It's not meant to be an absolute measure of intelligence, it's meant to be a rating compared to the rest of humanity. A score of 100 is literally average - it's what the majority of humans a supposed to be. The stupidest person in the world has a score of 1 (or is it 0 - I forget) while the worlds smartest person has a score of 200. In theory a score over 200 is impossible because it goes against the definition of IQ. Some IQ tests are worthless because they ask trivia questions, to be reliable they shouldn't even be tied down to a particular language.

An IQ is measured as any number from 0 (if someone had an IQ of 0 they would be catonic). 100 is average with a standard deviation of 20 (so an average IQ falls between 80-120). A high IQ is any over 120. Anyone with an IQ below 70 can be formally diagnosed as retarded (though its unlikely to be noticable unless said IQ is about 50).

Its also worth noting that an IQ is often more of a measure of education. e.g. it was found that Afro-Carabeans did poorly on tests prepared by (mainly carcasian) researchers when compared to carcasians, however the opposite was true when the tests were modified to be culturally in favour of Afro-Carabeans.

[Iranon]

I posted some findings about intelligence in D&D in the Class and Level Geekery thread. In a nutshell, if you assume IQ refers to the same quality as INT scores, and assume that INT of the population at large is determined by the old 3d6 method you get an almost perfect conversion of IQ = 5(int) + 47.5. (mean 100, standard deviation of 15, as by the definition of IQ).

For those who prefer a conversion table to a formula...

INT IQ

3 61-65
4 66-70
5 71-75
6 76-80
7 81-85
8 86-90
9 91-95
10 96-100
11 101-105
12 106-110
13 111-115
14 116-120
15 126-130
16 131-135
17 136-140
18 141-145


Severe retardation and extreme genius are outside the normal scope; both conditions require something extraordinary beyond die rolls.

Personally I'd peg Elan at an INT of 7 or 8 (an IQ in the 80ies), with his personality and lack of thoughtfulness making him appear less intelligent than he is quite frequently.



EDIT:

Since someone brought up IQs over 200: By definition, an IQ of 200 is a 1 in 76 billion occurence. It's very unlikely that such a person is alive at the moment, let alone available for testing.