half-elf/half-orc

[Ettina]

OK, if both elves and orcs can interbreed with humans, they should be able to interbreed with each other, too. So, what would a half-elf/half-orc be like? I'm thinking both stats and appearance, here.

Oh, and by the way, the elf half is high elf (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Elves,_High_%28Race%29).

[ComaVision]

That logic doesn't actually work.

Anyway, I believe the third party book Bastards and Bloodlines has rules for this sort of thing.

[frogglesmash]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?238557-Voldur-Half-elf-half-orc-(3-5)-If-you-read-it-you-ll-want-to-play-it-Promise) might interest you. I'd personally consider giving them everything Half elves gets with darkvision instead of low light plus the elven and half orc ability score adjustments (maybe without the one of the stat penalties to, any of them could work depending one which aspects of each race you think is more dominant.). As for age/size stuff, I'd probably decrease the half elf age categories by 5-10 years and give them that and use human numbers for height and weight.

[Uncle Pine]

OK, if both elves and orcs can interbreed with humans, they should be able to interbreed with each other, too.

That's not necessarily true, because infertility is not a transitive relation. For what we know, elves, human and orcs could form ring species.

EDIT: And that's assuming that half-orcs and half-elves are in fact fertile, which while I think is true I don't know whether or not is a thing or not.

[Ettina]

EDIT: And that's assuming that half-orcs and half-elves are in fact fertile, which while I think is true I don't know whether or not is a thing or not.

Why would they need to be fertile?

Anyway, there's a flaw (http://www.oocities.org/valmothg/Flaws.pdf) called Quarter Elf, so half-elves are probably fertile.

[Sian]

the default is for half-species to be fertile. Specially in Forgotten Realms Canon there's tons specific of examples, including that Dwarves can interbreed with most things (but most commonly Gnomes or Humans) but always are considered dwarves from a crunch standpoint, with some minor visual differences (Half-human Dwarves are taller, Half Gnome Dwarves are slimmer)

[Uncle Pine]

Why would they need to be fertile?

Anyway, there's a flaw (http://www.oocities.org/valmothg/Flaws.pdf) called Quarter Elf, so half-elves are probably fertile.

Because the easiest way to tell if two individuals (one male and one female) are of the same species is to see whether or not they produce fertile offspring. Granted, it's not a foolproof method to draw the line, but then again we currently don't have a foolproof definicion of "species".
I'm also not completely sure that the flaw you cited is official material because I've never heard of the site it's hosted on, but what's crucial is that even if E (elves) can breed with H (humans) and H can breed with O (Orcs) it doesn't mean that E can breed with O. So no half-elf orcs or half-orc elves.

EDIT: I don't want to look obnoxious, but this

the default is for half-species to be fertile. Specially in Forgotten Realms Canon there's tons specific of examples, including that Dwarves can interbreed with most things (but most commonly Gnomes or Humans) but always are considered dwarves from a crunch standpoint, with some minor visual differences (Half-human Dwarves are taller, Half Gnome Dwarves are slimmer)
probably needs a [citation needed] tag.

[Red Fel]

If memory serves, Elves and Orcs explicitly cannot breed with one another, in part due to the enmity between their respective patron deities.

[LoyalPaladin]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?238557-Voldur-Half-elf-half-orc-(3-5)-If-you-read-it-you-ll-want-to-play-it-Promise) might interest you.
Wow, that is really stupid cool.


If memory serves, Elves and Orcs explicitly cannot breed with one another, in part due to the enmity between their respective patron deities.
Oh, that would be interesting!

[SinsI]

The offspring of an elf and an orc is either a half-elf or a half-orc. The other half doesn't have to be human - the important part is that the progeny displays partial traits of only one race.

[ComaVision]

I'm also not completely sure that the flaw you cited is official material because I've never heard of the site it's hosted on,

The site cites it as Dragon Magazine content, though it doesn't say what issue.

Edit: Dragon #328

[Uncle Pine]

The site cites it as Dragon Magazine content, though it doesn't say what issue.

Edit: Dragon #328

Thanks. I remembered a Dragon issue with racial flaws, but couldn't track it down.

[ShurikVch]

Kingdoms of Kalamar (in Dangerous Denizens: The Monsters of Tellene and Friend & Foe: The Elves and Bugbears of Tellene) mentioned Half-Orc/Half-Elf: Tel-Amhothlan - +2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha; Low-Light Vision; +1 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells and effects; +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search and Spot checks

[Cruiser1]

The way I treat it, to avoid all kinds of mixed species of various percentages, is that only Human, Half Elf, Elf, Half Orc, and Orc need to exist. Couplings will result in a half breed race if one exists, otherwise it's an infertile combination. Half breeds can breed with each other, although breeding with either parent race will result in that parent race (the 3/4 influence dominates the 1/4 influence). For example:

Human + Elf = Half Elf (half breed race exists)
Half Elf + Half Elf = Half Elf (half breeds can breed with each other)
Human + Half Elf = Human (more human influence so human dominates like a dominant gene)
Elf + Half Elf = Elf (more elf influence so elf dominates like a dominant gene)

(Replace Elf with Orc above, to get Human/Orc/Half Orc combinations. Half Dragon, Tiefling, and so on work the same way.)

Orc + Elf = Doesn't conceive (half breed race doesn't exist, at least not in Core)
Half Orc + Half Elf = Doesn't conceive (half breed race doesn't exist)
Tiefling + Aasimar = Human (special case of good and its opposite evil cancelling out)

[Sian]

EDIT: I don't want to look obnoxious, but this

probably needs a [citation needed] tag.

Dwarves Deep, 2nd AD&D, FR11

Happy?

Actually, IIRC theres also mention of at least one Dwelf (Dwarf/Elf) in ... Elminster in Myth Drannor i believe it was ...

[Uncle Pine]

Dwarves Deep, 2nd AD&D, FR11

Happy?

Actually, IIRC theres also mention of at least one Dwelf (Dwarf/Elf) in ... Elminster in Myth Drannor i believe it was ...

Honestly? Yes. (http://i.imgur.com/IW8simF.gif) Even though this means that I'll have to dig up the source one of these days, because I don't have it on hand.

[Ettina]

Because the easiest way to tell if two individuals (one male and one female) are of the same species is to see whether or not they produce fertile offspring. Granted, it's not a foolproof method to draw the line, but then again we currently don't have a foolproof definicion of "species".

But my argument works just as well if the hybrids are infertile. Horse/donkey, horse/zebra and zebra/donkey crosses all produce healthy but infertile offspring. I can't think of any real-life example where species X produces viable offspring with both species Y and species Z, but Y and Z don't produce viable offspring with each other. Fertile or not is irrelevant.

[Uncle Pine]

But my argument works just as well if the hybrids are infertile. Horse/donkey, horse/zebra and zebra/donkey crosses all produce healthy but infertile offspring. I can't think of any real-life example where species X produces viable offspring with both species Y and species Z, but Y and Z don't produce viable offspring with each other. Fertile or not is irrelevant.

I know it's Wikipedia, but this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_species) might interest you. The concept of ring species is entirely based on the fact that X breeds with Y and Z, but Y and Z can't breed.

[Saintheart]

Wouldn't a half-elf/half-orc be a Fork?

[ShurikVch]

I read somewhere (don't remember exact source) - half-elves are fertile:
half-elf + elf = elf,
half-elf + human = human,
half-elf + half-elf = half-elf, but more human-like than parents

The only sterile crossbreed "race" I'm aware of is Mul from Dark Sun

[Uncle Pine]

Wouldn't a half-elf/half-orc be a Fork?

This is now canon.

[Elandris Kajar]

Wouldn't a half-elf/half-orc be a Fork?

LOL:smallsmile:
Seriously though, maybe an Erc? Or an Olf? All of the combinations are two ridiculous to contemplate.

Do you mind if I sig this?

[Saintheart]

LOL:smallsmile:
Seriously though, maybe an Erc? Or an Olf? All of the combinations are two ridiculous to contemplate.

Do you mind if I sig this?

Go ahead. I actually think it's a Spanish variant: EL FORK!

EDIT: No, no, I got it. They're actually residents of our world. The half-elf/half-orc can only be the noble elk.

[EisenKreutzer]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?238557-Voldur-Half-elf-half-orc-(3-5)-If-you-read-it-you-ll-want-to-play-it-Promise) might interest you. I'd personally consider giving them everything Half elves gets with darkvision instead of low light plus the elven and half orc ability score adjustments (maybe without the one of the stat penalties to, any of them could work depending one which aspects of each race you think is more dominant.). As for age/size stuff, I'd probably decrease the half elf age categories by 5-10 years and give them that and use human numbers for height and weight.

I would love to see a conversion of the Voldur for Pathfinder, using the Path of War material in place of Tome of Battle.

[Uncle Pine]

I would love to see a conversion of the Voldur for Pathfinder, using the Path of War material in place of Tome of Battle.

Replace "Steel Wind" in the Steel Wind racial ability with another 1st level "maneuver" (or the PoW equivalent of maneuvers) taken from PoW: conversion complete.