Miniatures Warhammer 40k Fluff Thread X - Yippee Ki-Yay, Heretic. [Archive]

LeSwordfish

2015-06-01, 02:39 PM

Welcome to the Tenth Warhammer 40k fluff thread.

Why do we have a fluff thread and a tabletop thread? Well, because, to put it bluntly, arguments about fluff can take up a lot of space. And that makes it hard for people to get critiques on their list. So, if you need to find out what's a good color scheme for your custom Dark Angels Successor chapter, Argue the morality of the setting yet again (Oh, how we wish you wouldn't), or even share fluff you've written for your army, here's the place.

Just remember, in the Grim Darkness of the dark future, there is only pointless bickering!

Previous Threads
Thread I: Warning: No Fanboys Allowed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105150) (:smalltongue:)
Thread II: Heresy Grown From Idleness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128240)
Thread III: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion III: You're Emprah? Well I didn't vote for you! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7807655#post7807655)
Thread IV: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion IV (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170857)
Thread V:Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion V - WARNING: May Contain Heresy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198131)
Thread VI:Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion VI - They see me Ward'en, they haten (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=224654)
Thread VII: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion VII - "There's A Codex Entry For That" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=268676)
Thread VIII: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion VIII - Khorne's Most Favourite Thread EVER (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?319635)
Thread IX: Warhammer 40k Fluff Discussion IX - Post-Human Centipede (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?364098-Warhammer-40k-Fluff-Thread-IX-quot-Post-human-Centipede-quot)

Things What We Talked About Recently:
*.*.*.* wanted help with his army's fluff.
Can Orks be corrupted by chaos?

*.*.*.*

2015-06-01, 04:33 PM

Gotta love that 'New Fluff thread' smell!

The general idea for my new army(I have finally saved up enough to comfortabley start on the force) is an Astartes Warband devoted to the Dark Mechanicum. Said Warband 'The Tyrant Claws' is a conglomeration of Iron Warrior/Imperial Fist geneseed, modeled after Honsou. I reasoned that the Dark Mechanicus members who helped Honsou forge the Daemonculaba may have stolen away some of the fist geneseed and done their own experiments. The Tyrant Claws swear complete fealty to said Mechanicum and enjoys lots of Pre-heresy technology.

Does this already stretch too much or sound too Mary Sue?

Cheesegear

2015-06-02, 02:08 AM

Does this already stretch too much or sound too Mary Sue?

Only problem I have is how they got away with it. Hereteks working under Honsou managed to steal some of his stuff, and create a Warband based off of Honsou. Either the hereteks are amazing at secrecy, or Honsou is incompetent. It know it's not the latter, so it must be the former. But that's fleshing out the hereteks, rather than the Warband itself, so, let's ignore that, and say that the hereteks got away with it and Honsou didn't annihilate them for their treachery (Skitarii get Scout or something, so it's not a stretch).

What does the Warband do? Are you simply piggy-backing off of Honsou's fluff? That your Warband is based off of him, so the Warband is basically the same as him? Your Warband is Honsou clones? That seems...Lame. You're only starting out your fluff, but you really need to differentiate yourself from Honsou, because cloning someone else who's cool, is almost as bad as being a Mary Sue. What is the personality of your Warband? ...Don't say 'like Honsou'.

The Tyrant Claws swear complete fealty to said Mechanicum and enjoys lots of Pre-heresy technology.

Is your Warband a bunch of chumps? That doesn't sound...Chaos-y. Because, that's what I get. That doesn't tell me how awesome your Warband is, that tells me how awesome the Hereteks are, that they have a Warband completely under their boot. Why hasn't the Warband turned on their masters and just taken all the tech? It's not personal, it's that when I try to flesh out the Warband in my head, I'm only getting how cool the Hereteks are, and I'm almost certain that that's not what you're going for.

When was the Warband created? During the Deamonculaba incidents. That doesn't give you a large timeframe. Not that that's bad. It just gives makes your Warband relatively young, and limiting the age of your Warband kind of limits the actions that it has - or could potentially have - taken part in, which then limits your 'fluff window'. So, I don't know.

Origins: Where does your Chapter's name come from? Who/what is the/a Tyrant Claw? You don't need an origin story, but it's certainly cooler if you have one. MOAR narrative!

Where does the Warband operate? Directly tying your Warband to Honsou limits your options. The Ultima Segementum is pretty much the only place you can be. Unless, part of your fluff involves the hereteks buggering off and getting as far away from Honsou - and his wrath - as possible. Basically, your Warband needs a theatre of operations. Pick a Segmentum, and look up on Lexicanum the people who live there. Those are your Warband's primary opponents. Once you know who your primary opponents are going to be, you know who your nemeses can be, and that's very helpful in determining what your Warband's after and its goals.

How does the Warband even exist? Where does it pool it's recruits from? Clones of Honsou? Or have the Mechanicum found them a dedicated planet that has a lot of cult activity and is glad to be of service? It's a Chaos Warband, so kidnapping 10 year-olds from Imperial planets and brainwashing them to Chaos is also perfectly acceptable. How are the planet's inhabitants bad-ass enough to handle gene-seed implanation? Or, like most Chaos Marines, is there an extremely high casualty rate in new recruits?

Who runs the Warband? Swearing 'complete fealty' (emphasis mine) to hereteks is lame. That means your Warband gets pushed around. I mean, if that's what you're going for, great. Start writing stories about how cool the Dark Mechanicum is. Chaos Marines are being led around by the nose by people who aren't Chaos Marines - and that's not right, unless you have a good reason. Not even loyalist Marines swear 'complete fealty' to Terra. Deathwatch aren't even that loyal to the Inquisition, the institution that made them. When an Inquisitor tells a Watch Commander that he's doing his job wrong, there's Hell to pay and Flesh Tearers and Black Dragons sweep dead Inquisitors under the rug.
Like I said, 'complete fealty' probably isn't the phrase you want to be using. Go with 'uneasy alliance', especially as the hereteks-in-charge are known for being sneaky (apparently).

Future Goals: Pretty much ties everything together. Who are your opponents? Do they have something you want? Are they preventing you from doing certain things? Who runs the Warband? What are his goals? What is the direction that the guy running the show wants to go in? Are the rest of the people in the Warband okay with that direction?

I see a lot of potential for it. Honsou's a cool guy, so, providing that you understand what Honsou's personality is about, and how having personality traits of two Primarchs effects his personality, there's no reason that you couldn't turn it into something great. My real issue is just the phrase 'complete fealty'. For Chaos Marines, that sounds wrong on many levels, especially when you consider that it's a Warband based off of Honsou.
If it was me, my first Narrative would be the leader of the Tyrant Claws trying to get out from underneath the Mechanicum and murdering the lot of them.
"You're mistaken, Tech-Priest, you, work for us." *MURDER*

So, them's my thoughts. Basically 'How To Make a Chapter', but for Chaos Marines.

*.*.*.*

2015-06-02, 02:52 AM

First off, let me say thanks. Even though I tend to read your posts as aggressive, I appreciate the help.
(Skitarii get Scout or something, so it's not a stretch).Woo!

What does the Warband do? Are you simply piggy-backing off of Honsou's fluff? That your Warband is based off of him, so the Warband is basically the same as him? Your Warband is Honsou clones? That seems...Lame. You're only starting out your fluff, but you really need to differentiate yourself from Honsou, because cloning someone else who's cool, is almost as bad as being a Mary Sue. What is the personality of your Warband? ...Don't say 'like Honsou'.
I actually just use Honsou as an example of a canon Fist/IW hybrid so that I can justify it to myself. He dealing with the Dark Mechanicum just helped the case. IF are my favorite Loyalists and IW are my favorite traitors, so it works well together.

Why hasn't the Warband turned on their masters and just taken all the tech? It's not personal, it's that when I try to flesh out the Warband in my head, I'm only getting how cool the Hereteks are, and I'm almost certain that that's not what you're going for.I guess I fealt the claws recognized that allying themselves with the Mechanicum helped guarantee a steady supply of rare technology and their rare geneseed.

When was the Warband created? which then limits your 'fluff window'.This is actually something that bugs me. If I can't figure out a way to work around it, I'll hand wave a 'Warp shunted them in the past' if we do narratives earlier than their creation.

Origins: Where does your Chapter's name come from? Who/what is the/a Tyrant Claw? You don't need an origin story, but it's certainly cooler if you have one. MOAR narrative! Point taken. The meta reason for their names? I'm using IH rules for them on the TT and the models from Forgeworld. So I needed a 'hand' related name

Unless, part of your fluff involves the hereteks buggering off and getting as far away from Honsou - and his wrath - as possible. Basically, the claws have little to no interactions with Honsou.

It's a Chaos Warband, so kidnapping 10 year-olds from Imperial planets and brainwashing them to Chaos is also perfectly acceptable.I like this idea~

Like I said, 'complete fealty' probably isn't the phrase you want to be using. Go with 'uneasy alliance', especially as the hereteks-in-charge are known for being sneaky (apparently).Point taken

Future Goals: This is DEFINITELY something I need to think on more

Killer Angel

2015-06-02, 03:41 AM

To be purged. That is the fate of the heretic! All hail the new thread!

First off, let me say thanks. Even though I tend to read your posts as aggressive, I appreciate the help.

That's because in the dark threads, there is only war. :smallwink:

Cheesegear

2015-06-02, 05:25 AM

I guess I fealt the claws recognized that allying themselves with the Mechanicum helped guarantee a steady supply of rare technology and their rare geneseed.

I just don't like the idea of a Chaos Warband that is reliant on anyone else for its survival. If they need more tech, they generally just raid and pillage and get anything they want. If they're not going to raid and pillage for anything they want, whenever they want...What kind of Chaos Warband is that?

This is actually something that bugs me. If I can't figure out a way to work around it, I'll hand wave a 'Warp shunted them in the past' if we do narratives earlier than their creation.

Heh. That would make for some good stories. Chaos Warband gets shunted into the past, now that they know the future, they can push events along. Or, knowing where things are and when they will be allows them to raid and pillage more tech more reliably.

Point taken. The meta reason for their names? I'm using IH rules for them on the TT and the models from Forgeworld. So I needed a 'hand' related name

Not exactly. The Sons of Medusa don't reference 'hands' at all. They relate to the planet that they're from.
The Warband name is anything you want it to be. Since it's a Warband, it's even more likely to be named after someone specific (Strike Force ). They can even be named after the ship they travel in. Like the Serrated Sun, Blood Ravens, Warhounds. The Horus Heresy books are full of individual warbands and warhosts as part of a subset of a larger group.

Don't feel 'forced' into naming anything because of rules or meta reasons. It doesn't matter what paint job you have or what you call your Warband, so long as you make it clear on your army list what you're doing. If your army list is clearly marked, you can call things whatever you want.

Basically, the claws have little to no interactions with Honsou.

Good. Unless their goal is to go back in time to make sure that Honsou's legacy comes to pass. :smallbiggrin:
Then you get to make cool, unique fluff that deals with the Ordo Chronos, which doesn't really exist anywhere.

"The question isn't [B]where we are...But when!"
*Inspector Spacetime Theme plays*

*.*.*.*

2015-06-02, 11:04 AM

I just don't like the idea of a Chaos Warband that is reliant on anyone else for its survival. If they need more tech, they generally just raid and pillage and get anything they want. If they're not going to raid and pillage for anything they want, whenever they want...What kind of Chaos Warband is that?Do you really think pre-heresy tech is prevalent enough for them to be able to raid for it?

Heh. That would make for some good stories. Chaos Warband gets shunted into the past, now that they know the future, they can push events along. Or, knowing where things are and when they will be allows them to raid and pillage more tech more reliably.
Agreed~

Don't feel 'forced' into naming anything because of rules or meta reasons. It doesn't matter what paint job you have or what you call your Warband, so long as you make it clear on your army list what you're doing. If your army list is clearly marked, you can call things whatever you want. I meant it more as a 'They have the IH symbol all over them, better tie -something- to that.

"The question isn't where we are...But when!"
*Inspector Spacetime Theme plays*I respect Community too much to change 'Inspector' to 'Inquisitor'.

Grim Portent

2015-06-02, 11:16 AM

if you want an Iron Warriors warband associated closely with the Dark Mechanicus why not just say that their leader is a Warpsmith allied to the Mechanicus in order to have greater access to their forges, foundries and tech adepts?

*.*.*.*

2015-06-03, 12:29 PM

Well, given the mixed loyalist/traitor geneseed and pre heresy technology; I had thought that the Warband would have to keep close and 'friendly' relations to the Dark Mechanicum. Would the hereteks really create and supply a Warband, then not keep tabs on them? I'm asking in earnest as info on them is a bit scarce.

LeSwordfish

2015-06-06, 12:17 PM

Can Eldar be used as the host forms for daemonhosts?

Closet_Skeleton

2015-06-06, 12:26 PM

A daemonhost is just a possessed bound up in wards and Eldar can get possessed, its just that any vulnerable to such would usually get eaten my Slaanesh first.

LeSwordfish

2015-06-06, 12:47 PM

Grim Portent

2015-06-06, 01:05 PM

Okay - i'm not up on eldar fluff. What do you mean by "vulnerable"? I thought Eldar souls were safe in their bodies until death, at which point they get put in a spirit stone. Surely binding a daemon into an eldar host would be the same as a human host - drive out the soul (to slaanesh, the spirit stone, or wherever) and implant a daemon in it's place.

The soul of a daemonhost is still present in the body, though it's normally consumed by the daemon.

In Path of the Incubus an Eldar is possessed by a daemon of Tzeentch despite wearing his soul stone and being perfectly fine prior to his possession.

Wraith

2015-06-06, 03:05 PM

Okay - i'm not up on eldar fluff. What do you mean by "vulnerable"?

As opposed to being something like a Pariah, who is utterly immune to all warp powers and anathema to daemonkind, or a Grey Knight whose training and inherent abilities make them all but resistant to the lure of daemons.

It's very debateable as to whether or not the soul being stolen and then supplanted by a daemon while still the Eldar is still living is the same as "death", I don't think enough has been written about the mechanics of Eldar technology to make a definitive claim either way.
Presumably what you'd get is an Eldar whose soul is pushed into their spirit stone, which is then immediately at the mercy of their daemon-possessed body....

LeSwordfish

2015-06-06, 04:28 PM

So the best guess is that the soul stone might save the host's soul from being eaten by a daemon, but might not? Works for me - in fact, that might make eldar more vulnerable - the soul is removed from the body irrevocably, whereas sharing it with a daemon is only almost certainly fatal.

Wraith

2015-06-06, 05:16 PM

There are plenty of examples of people have wandered around for (up to) months with a daemon in their head and come to relatively little harm.

Not counting Possessed Chaos Marines and the Exorcists Chapter of Space Marines, Interrogator Carl Thonius, Argul Tal and Inquisitor Kessel all hosted daemons for a period of time with varied results. One of them was consumed utterly, another freed but left with frightening side-effects, and the last apperently enjoying genuinely benevolent symbiosis with his.

You're entirely at the mercy of the daemon and it's intentions, but death certainly isn't guaranteed. :smallsmile:

The Glyphstone

2015-06-06, 05:20 PM

LeSwordfish

2015-06-06, 05:29 PM

Grim Portent

2015-06-06, 05:32 PM

Wraith

2015-06-06, 05:36 PM

Hmm - perhaps i'm defining Daemonhost differently - i'm specifically thinking of the point at which the daemon takes control. I guess it would be a matter of interpretation/guesswork what protection the stone provides, and when it scoops the soul out of the body for protection.

Come to think of it, the difference between "daemonhost" and "possessed" is really vaguely defined.
As far as I can tell, someone who is possessed (ie, has a daemon inside of them) is known as a daemonhost, whether the daemon is in fully in control (as with someone like the Exhalted), is present but contained or cooperating (typical Inquisitorial daemonhosts or like Argul Tal) or currently suppressed 'hidden' (as with much of Carl Thonius).

"Emergent" might be the word I've heard used to desribe 'full blown possession', but I don't remember where I saw it.

The Glyphstone

2015-06-06, 07:15 PM

My understanding was that a Daemonhost is a process of binding - the demon is sealed inside the mortal shell, as a way of limiting and controlling it - it takes killing the host to set the demon free again.

Comparatively, someone who is possessed simply has a demon living inside them, whether their participation in the fusion is voluntary or not- it wants to be there, so while it could leave, it doesn't.

Wraith

2015-06-06, 08:07 PM

That could be true, but I'm not entirely sure.
For one thing, both Daemonhosts and Possessions can be cured by an exorcism, as well as death of the subject. Similarly, both can be inflicted willingly and against the victim's will by means ritual and coincidental, giving them a lot more in common than just the presence of a daemon.

Similarly, both Carl Thonius and Ephrael Stern (A Sister of Battle from the comic Daemonifuge) have all the characteristics of possession, by that definition, but are both at various points referred to *as* Daemonhosts.

I would put it down to a canon conflict caused by different authors not using a standardised term, if anything. :smalltongue:

Cheesegear

2015-06-06, 08:15 PM

it takes killing the host to set the demon free again.

Isn't Fischig already dead by the time Eisenhorn daemonifies him?

LeSwordfish

2015-06-07, 02:57 AM

Fischig is, but Eisenhorn does it to another interrogator before, after unleashing Cherubael on the Titan, who definitely isn't.

Wraith

2015-06-07, 05:40 AM

The first time that Cherubael is bound by Eisenhorn, it's into a vat-grown clone body. They're specifically stated as being mindless - and presumably, soulless - even before the process of daemonhosting, which is why Eisenhorn's decline into Radicalism begins so easily.

He goes to great pains and expense to ensure that his already tainted actions have no 'real' victim.... which just means that he has had practice when the necessity arises later.

First it's a mind-scrubbed non- human. No harm done. Then it's the weaselly, nasal-voiced interrogator forced on him as a babysitter of sorts. Not great, but the guy really was a loser and the need was great, the end justifies the means, right? And then finally, when backed right into a corner with no other way out, it has to be Fischig. Except that Eisenhorn didn't do that, that one was Aemos.... Eisenhorn's closest friend and confidant.... Using the book that Eisenhorn gave him... So that's okay too.... Right?

*.*.*.*

2015-06-08, 10:24 PM

https://fbcdn-photos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-0/10422154_883908721654760_7261902585082490818_n.jpg ?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=33b7df92a365cb70afdeab5a0b66db1c&oe=5603AEC8&__gda__=1442198081_4ccdb0984958c530d118b77e924464d 2

13_CBS

2015-06-09, 06:39 PM

gooddragon1

2015-07-03, 05:36 AM

A guardsman on a quest. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUW8sBaacQI)

Brookshw

2015-07-09, 04:09 PM

13_CBS

2015-07-09, 05:52 PM

In regards to the Horus Heresy series, do these novels eventually cover the actual assault on Terra and the battle between Horus and the Emperor? If so, which novel? If not, is it in a novel anywhere? :smallconfused: I seem to be having a hard time tracking it down.

Alas, it appears that GW (or the Black Library) has caught on to the fact that they can milk the Horus Heresy series for all it's worth. As a result, Istvaans III and V have happened, as well as the Burning of Prospero, Calth, and the end of the Thramas Crusade, but so far the galaxy seems to be all heading towards Terra...but not actually there yet.

Brookshw

2015-07-09, 06:02 PM

Alas, it appears that GW (or the Black Library) has caught on to the fact that they can milk the Horus Heresy series for all it's worth. As a result, Istvaans III and V have happened, as well as the Burning of Prospero, Calth, and the end of the Thramas Crusade, but so far the galaxy seems to be all heading towards Terra...but not actually there yet.

Oh, thanks. I thought there was a novel that took place right after Horus' death so I assumed, clearly that is in error.

13_CBS

2015-07-09, 06:24 PM

Oh, thanks. I thought there was a novel that took place right after Horus' death so I assumed, clearly that is in error.

The Talon of Horus? Yeah, I can see why it could be a bit misleading. Nonetheless, Black Library isn't in any hurry to get to Terra quite yet, so...

Closet_Skeleton

2015-07-10, 05:27 PM

Talon of Horus is the start of an Abaddon series that's separate to the Horus Heresy series.

The fight between Horus and the Emperor is the most covered part of the story, so there's not much a novel would add. There is an old (William King?) short story of the actual duel.

Cheesegear

2015-07-10, 07:40 PM

The Talon of Horus? Yeah, I can see why it could be a bit misleading. Nonetheless, Black Library isn't in any hurry to get to Terra quite yet, so...

They're close. Really close, that's why their release schedule is shot to Hell. Strong rumours say that the only reason Black Library is taking so long is that they're waiting for Forge World to catch up. Take a look at the recent 'main' release schedule.

8.13 - Vulkan Lives (Kyme)
10.13 - Unremembered Empire (Abnett)
5.14 - Vengeful Spirit (McNeill)
7.14 - Damnation of Pythos (Annandale)
7.15 - Deathfire (Kyme)

Since the last book 12 months ago, they're only just now releasing the next one. Written by Kyme.
They used to churn out 3 books a year, because each author would be writing a book. The last release by ADB was in 2013, and Swallow hasn't written anything since Fear to Tread. Here's hoping that over Christmas we get another three books rapid-fired at us; Abnett, McNeill and ADB are all due for a new book. But, even then, it still wont be the Battle of Terra, because Black Library has to milk the Heresy dry before it finishes it.
(Abnett has pretty much confirmed that the Battle of Terra will be a three-parter and they already know who's going to be writing each book, which means that on some level, it's getting done, just not released)

I really would like to see John French write something in the main series, too.

Drasius

2015-07-11, 03:50 AM

They're close. Really close, that's why their release schedule is shot to Hell. Strong rumours say that the only reason Black Library is taking so long is that they're waiting for Forge World to catch up. Take a look at the recent 'main' release schedule.

8.13 - Vulkan Lives (Kyme)
10.13 - Unremembered Empire (Abnett)
5.14 - Vengeful Spirit (McNeill)
7.14 - Damnation of Pythos (Annandale)
7.15 - Deathfire (Kyme)

Since the last book 12 months ago, they're only just now releasing the next one. Written by Kyme.
They used to churn out 3 books a year, because each author would be writing a book. The last release by ADB was in 2013, and Swallow hasn't written anything since Fear to Tread. Here's hoping that over Christmas we get another three books rapid-fired at us; Abnett, McNeill and ADB are all due for a new book. But, even then, it still wont be the Battle of Terra, because Black Library has to milk the Heresy dry before it finishes it.
(Abnett has pretty much confirmed that the Battle of Terra will be a three-parter and they already know who's going to be writing each book, which means that on some level, it's getting done, just not released)

I really would like to see John French write something in the main series, too.

I want to see John French finish the Ahriman trilogy and see if my wild guessing about the storyline matching up with ahriman's codex entry in a 1 paragraph : 1 novel theory is correct. If so, and it links up with what was written in the halequins codex, man, that's going to be one hell of a book!

Also, yes, hurry up with some good, non-Kyme books! I'm not even going to read Deathfire, I already know it'll be bad and I'll hate it.

comicshorse

2015-07-11, 03:58 AM

8.13 - Vulkan Lives (Kyme)
10.13 - Unremembered Empire (Abnett)
5.14 - Vengeful Spirit (McNeill)
7.14 - Damnation of Pythos (Annandale)
7.15 - Deathfire (Kyme)

Since the last book 12 months ago, they're only just now releasing the next one. Written by Kyme.

You missed out 'Legacies of Betrayal' (2.15) ( and 'Scars' for that matter -4.14)

thethird

2015-07-11, 04:25 AM

7.15 - Deathfire (Kyme)

Haven't read that one, is it good (worth reading if I don't have anything else to read)?

Cheesegear

2015-07-11, 09:26 PM

Haven't read that one, is it good (worth reading if I don't have anything else to read)?

Not a clue. Kyme's writing quality is all over the place. The first Salamanders novel was terrible, while the next two were passable. Promethean Sun was boring, while Vulkan Lives was awesome, and then Abnett ruined everything in Unremembered Empire. If anything, here's hoping that Deathfire undoes the events from UE (because Vulkan has to be one of the last three Primarchs), but I wouldn't know.

Basically, you're waiting for me to tell you it's good, while I'm waiting for someone else to tell me it's good. :smallamused:

hamishspence

2015-07-12, 03:18 AM

If anything, here's hoping that Deathfire undoes the events from UE (because Vulkan has to be one of the last three Primarchs), but I wouldn't know.

Basically, you're waiting for me to tell you it's good, while I'm waiting for someone else to tell me it's good. :smallamused:
I picked it up - had a look - skipped to the end. Vulkan:

is given a "lowered into molten lava" funeral - but comes back from it alive, and apparently sane.

thethird

2015-07-13, 12:28 PM

I picked it up - had a look - skipped to the end. Vulkan:

is given a "lowered into molten lava" funeral - but comes back from it alive, and apparently sane.

Thanks. That solves most of the issue :P

I hate when I get a horus heresy book and it's boooooring for the most part and it makes me just want to jump to the end.

By the way is there anything good on Mortarion? Haven't read almost anything of him. Or Perturabo for the matter, I like Perturabo when he is not in childish anger.

Wraith

2015-07-13, 01:04 PM

hamishspence

2015-07-13, 02:34 PM

Scars is a bit more Mortarion-centric - a large part of the plot is him trying to turn Khan to his side.

comicshorse

2015-07-13, 03:26 PM

He's also in 'Vengeful Spirit' as he leads his Legion into battle alongside Horus and the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus

Kesnit

2015-07-14, 02:03 PM

Now that I've found the 40K lore thread (which I thought had died), I have a question...

When I play RPGs, I tend to name my characters after 40K characters. I'll pick a Legion/Chapter that fits the build, then look at the list of Known Members and pick a name. (For example, if I am playing a sneaky type, I'll look at Night Lords. Casters are either Thousand Sons or Gray Knights.)

I have a new PC for a new D&D campaign, and I am having trouble deciding which Chapter to get a name from. The PC is a CG Changling Warlock/Cleric/Eldritch Disciple with the Saint template. He focuses on buffing, debuffing, and healing.

Given the piety, I am considering breaking tradition and going with a name from a Sister of Battle. However, if there is a Chapter that would fit that fluff, I'd rather stick with it.

Magentawolf

2015-07-14, 03:07 PM

The Talon of Horus? Yeah, I can see why it could be a bit misleading. Nonetheless, Black Library isn't in any hurry to get to Terra quite yet, so...

The Battle for Terra is 80% of the reason I started reading this series, and it's driving me absolutely batty that they're taking so long.

Wraith

2015-07-14, 03:34 PM

I have a new PC for a new D&D campaign, and I am having trouble deciding which Chapter to get a name from. The PC is a CG Changling Warlock/Cleric/Eldritch Disciple with the Saint template. He focuses on buffing, debuffing, and healing.

Given the piety, I am considering breaking tradition and going with a name from a Sister of Battle. However, if there is a Chapter that would fit that fluff, I'd rather stick with it.

Given that Sisters of Battle are... well, Sisters, 'He' might not be the best choice? :smallsmile:

But failing that.... S/He/It uses magic (Warlock, Eldritch Disciple) and is invested with Divine power (Cleric, Saint), it sounds very clearly like Word Bearers to me. I always liked Kor Phareon as a name, despite how I despise the character. :smallbiggrin:

Scars is a bit more Mortarion-centric - a large part of the plot is him trying to turn Khan to his side.

I haven't read Scars, I got a couple of Chapters in and it bored me. Does the story reveal anything about Mortarion's motivation to do so, however? From what I got, he was torturing Vulkan and trying to convert the Khan because Horus told him to and that's about it. There's little to no mention of why HE wants to do it, or why HE thinks that Chaos is such a cool thing to join up with.

Hiro Protagonest

2015-07-14, 03:58 PM

There really isn't anything on Mortarion. Frankly, if the Heresy books have a weak link, it's him - there's virtually nothing regarding his motivations or intentions, he pretty much turns Traitor because Horus asks him to and he has nothing better to do.

There's one line in Flight of the Eisenstein that sort-of suggests that he has the same feelings of ingratitude and that he's being taken for granted as Perturabo, but for all intents and purposes he turns to Chaos because the lore says that he does.

I won't pretend to know a whole lot (spent some time on wikis), but the most I know is that way back when the Emperor first found him, he really wanted to kill Barbarus' overlord, failed, and then Emps stepped in and killed the guy and that was a blow to Mort's ego? I guess he was a warlike guy, but despite his methods, he had a strong enough moral compass to turn away from the overlord and protect humans. It makes about as much sense for him to turn to Chaos as it does for Jaghatai. Maybe even less sense, as Jaghatai is heavily based off Genghis Khan and fought against other humans when he conquered his homeworld.

Kesnit

2015-07-14, 04:18 PM

Given that Sisters of Battle are... well, Sisters, 'He' might not be the best choice? :smallsmile:

If I went with a name for a Sister, I was going to masculinize it in some way. :smallwink:

But failing that.... S/He/It uses magic (Warlock, Eldritch Disciple) and is invested with Divine power (Cleric, Saint), it sounds very clearly like Word Bearers to me.

Huh... I never would have thought of that, since I tend to go Good/Neutral Character = Loyalist, Evil Character = Chaos. However, you're right, the magic and fanaticism does point to Word Bearers. (And it wouldn't be the first time I went against pattern. All of my toons in SW:TOR are named for Gray Knights, including the ones who went Dark Side...)

I always liked Kor Phareon as a name, despite how I despise the character. :smallbiggrin:

The full name is a little long. However, Kor would work.

I'll check out the list of WB characters and see what strikes me. Thanks. :smallsmile:

The Glyphstone

2015-07-14, 07:14 PM

YEah, everything about that concept screamed Word Bearers to me, except for the Good alignment. Whereas no Loyalist chapter really fit the description at all, the less Lawful ones also being the most commonly anti-Psyker ones.

Cheesegear

2015-07-14, 07:44 PM

Artanis

2015-07-14, 08:31 PM

If I went with a name for a Sister, I was going to masculinize it in some way. :smallwink:
A Changeling can be any gender it wants :smalltongue:

Kesnit

2015-07-14, 08:38 PM

A Changeling can be any gender it wants :smalltongue:

Yes, but the gaming group has a rule against playing cross-gender characters.

comicshorse

2015-07-18, 07:34 AM

I haven't read Scars, I got a couple of Chapters in and it bored me. Does the story reveal anything about Mortarion's motivation to do so, however? From what I got, he was torturing Vulkan and trying to convert the Khan because Horus told him to and that's about it. There's little to no mention of why HE wants to do it, or why HE thinks that Chaos is such a cool thing to join up with.

'Scars' does have a conversation between the Khan and Mortarion
in which Mortarion claims he joined with Horus so when Horus has destroyed the Emperor Mortarion will be ready to remove Horus and take his place.
The Khan claims that this is Mortarion re-writing his motivations so as to avoid looking like a fool and really Mortarion was motivated by a disgust at Psykers and allied with Horus because he was promised they would be removed from the Chapters and now he realises he was suckered but has gone too far to turn back

Wraith

2015-07-18, 09:26 AM

I won't pretend to know a whole lot (spent some time on wikis), but the most I know is that way back when the Emperor first found him, he really wanted to kill Barbarus' overlord, failed, and then Emps stepped in and killed the guy and that was a blow to Mort's ego? I guess he was a warlike guy, but despite his methods, he had a strong enough moral compass to turn away from the overlord and protect humans.

This is plausible, but it also ignores the rest of Mortarion's characterisation before and during the Crusade in which he embodies Endurance, the key attribute which is instilled in his Legion.

Mortarion is virtually immune to poisons and is utterly relentless, key things he prizes in his warriors even centuries after he liberated his home planet so it's not as though he loses interest in them later on.
But on Barbarus, even his constitution failed him when it came to killing the mutant tyrants, and the Emperor went on ahead and did it while he choked and suffocated. If anything, Mortarion should admire and respect the Emperor all the more for being the one person in the galaxy who is tougher than he is.

One could argue that this inspires a sort of jealousy in Mortarion which causes him to grow resentful - perhaps he's perfectly happy with people being tough and resilient, but only so long as HE remains the toughest and MOST resilient - but I don't remember any signs of that ever being pointed out or discussed.
It wouldn't even be that hard to do; just have the Death Guard be rivals with the Iron Hands or something, in the same way that the Alpha Legion/Night Lords and Raven Guard try to be the 'stealthy' Marines but one of them takes it far too far and goes over the edge, y'know?

The reason that that's all you know [about Mortarion] is because it doesn't have anything to do with the Heresy.

The Heresy is The Triumph of Ullanor, and Horus being named Warmaster, onwards.

I don't think that's accurate. The same period of time also includes Angron's fight with Leman Russ and Lorgar's chastisement, you can't dismiss everything from prior to Ullanor as irrelevant.

'Scars' does have a conversation between the Khan and Mortarion
in which Mortarion claims he joined with Horus so when Horus has destroyed the Emperor Mortarion will be ready to remove Horus and take his place.
The Khan claims that this is Mortarion re-writing his motivations so as to avoid looking like a fool and really Mortarion was motivated by a disgust at Psykers and allied with Horus because he was promised they would be removed from the Chapters and now he realises he was suckered but has gone too far to turn back

I think I agree with the Khan here - that 'backstory' is very convenient and doesn't actually answer the questions posed so far.

Why does Mortarion turn traitor? Because he wants to let Horus kill the Emperor, and then he can kill Horus. Well, why does Mrtarion want to take over anyway? How long has Mortarion had his eye on the Imperial Throne? What sequence of events made him want to be more than a Primarch, easily within the top 22 'most powerful humans in the galaxy'? Why is he okay with the Emperor being killed at all, when the very idea is utterly abominable to some of the other Primarchs and Mortarion has no obvious reason for being so fanatically unhappy (like Angron or Lorgar do)?

And if it's about hating Psykers.... well, it was the Emperor who issued the Decree of Nikea which BANNED Psykers, even if Mortarion didn't know that it's only the Legions of the Traitor Primarchs (and Russ....) who continue to use them. Defying the Emperor and joining the Word Bearers and Thousand Sons is the complete opposite of what he should do, if he hates Psykers - Stay loyal and enforce Nikea, and you get what you want without the need for patricide.

...Frankly, Cheesegear's theory about Mortarion being friendzoned by "the GM's girlfriend" Horus still holds more weight than what the Khan says. :smalltongue:

Drasius

2015-07-18, 03:23 PM

'Scars' does have a conversation between the Khan and Mortarion
in which Mortarion claims he joined with Horus so when Horus has destroyed the Emperor Mortarion will be ready to remove Horus and take his place.
The Khan claims that this is Mortarion re-writing his motivations so as to avoid looking like a fool and really Mortarion was motivated by a disgust at Psykers and allied with Horus because he was promised they would be removed from the Chapters and now he realises he was suckered but has gone too far to turn back

I think I agree with the Khan here - that 'backstory' is very convenient and doesn't actually answer the questions posed so far.

Why does Mortarion turn traitor? Because he wants to let Horus kill the Emperor, and then he can kill Horus. Well, why does Mrtarion want to take over anyway? How long has Mortarion had his eye on the Imperial Throne? What sequence of events made him want to be more than a Primarch, easily within the top 22 'most powerful humans in the galaxy'? Why is he okay with the Emperor being killed at all, when the very idea is utterly abominable to some of the other Primarchs and Mortarion has no obvious reason for being so fanatically unhappy (like Angron or Lorgar do)?

And if it's about hating Psykers.... well, it was the Emperor who issued the Decree of Nikea which BANNED Psykers, even if Mortarion didn't know that it's only the Legions of the Traitor Primarchs (and Russ....) who continue to use them. Defying the Emperor and joining the Word Bearers and Thousand Sons is the complete opposite of what he should do, if he hates Psykers - Stay loyal and enforce Nikea, and you get what you want without the need for patricide.

...Frankly, Cheesegear's theory about Mortarion being friendzoned by "the GM's girlfriend" Horus still holds more weight than what the Khan says. :smalltongue:

This, because in Vengeful Spirit;
Mortarion gets to open up Horus from shoulder to crotch with his scythe, at Horus' request no less, while Horus has gotten out of his armour deliberately to get cut up so he can enter the Gate. Horus even says that if Morty ever wanted to off him and take over, this would be his chance. Considering Mortarion had a couple of death guard terminators and Erasmus Golg available and is a primarch and there were only a handful of Luna Wolves present (granted they were named characters), he could have easily taken out Horus and become the latest pawn of the Chaos gods the new warmaster.

Platinius

2015-07-22, 04:09 PM

it has been some time

Is it possible to more metal than this? (http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/0/0b/LoD_Astartes.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130205215914)

yet also so adorable (http://rotaken.deviantart.com/art/Warhammer-40k-Legion-of-the-Damned-545948656)

Unrelated, yet too awesome to not show here (http://diegogisbertllorens.deviantart.com/art/Aftermath-349797858)

Cheesegear

2015-07-22, 10:09 PM

As someone who is trying to paint (finally), there are a few things about Space Marine helmets that are bothering me.

Insignium Astartes says that Veterans wear white helmets, the Codex (7th Ed., that is) says this a number of times, too. This isn't a new idea, but Insignium also shows a Command Squad of the second Company with white helmets. Helmet colour isn't an indication of Company, having your helmet change colour to white is an honourific that you get to keep, basically signifying that at some point, you were part of the 1st Company, and now you're not. An obvious example is the difference between Sergeants (red) and Veteran Sergeants (red-and-white). In any case, white helmets are just another badge of honor that you get to keep, and why this (in)famous image...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/14/147508/4592386-imperial+fists.jpg

Google Image Search 'Imperial Fists' and it's the very first image.

...actually makes sense. "I thought only 1st Company Marines had white helmets?" ...No. That's not what anything has ever said. White helmets are a mark of Veteran status, not of 1st Company status. All 1st Company Marines are Veterans, but not all Veterans are in the 1st Company. Command Squad Marines, having 2 Attacks each and Leadership 9, are Veterans. So why doesn't GW paint their Command Squads with white helmets? Why aren't more Captains depicted with white helmets? If white helmets are not an indication of Company - which they're not - why aren't there more white helmets, like Insignium says there should be?

But, then we get to the cluster[bomb] that is Sentinels of Terra. As some of you may know, I've mentioned this book negatively several times in the past, well, here's another time;
In the same book, there are two different kinds of Terminators;
Plain yellow helmets. 100% wrong in every canon that I know of.
Red stripe. This is from 3rd Ed. (maybe 2nd?) when Imperial Fists used red stripes to indicate Veteran status. There's also an Assault Squad Veteran Sergeant with the red striped helmet, indicating that Veterans don't exclusively live in the 1st Company, but, again, this is in the same book. There's no excuse for inconsistency.
Then in the main Codex, IF Terminators have white helmets... What?

Then, out of nowhere, SoT declares that Imperial Fist Veteran Sergeants have black and white helmets, instead of red and white. Except on no model is this depicted, and on the one guy where it's supposedly canon, his unofficial model doesn't even wear a helmet.

If GW can send out paint-by-numbers sheets to GW Blackshirts, so that models everywhere can look pretty much the same no matter what store you go to, how come GW can't even police their own 'Eavy Metal team, so that all pictured models are consistent? I mean, painting should be the easy part - "We want our models to look like this." - hobby is supposed to be the thing that GW is good at, right?

That's my rant for today. :smallsigh:

Wraith

2015-07-23, 01:27 AM

Personal heraldry.

Any Veteran has the right to have his own individual colours on his wargear as a mark of prowess, honour and to enable easy recognition by his friends and foes. Some Chapters use very little - Ultramarines paint their helmet and, if I recall correctly, wear a badgeon their kneecap - whereas others really go for it in every way. Black Templars and Grey Knights of almost any rank have their wargear individually tailored as marks of honour (and, especially for the Knights, psychic reinforcement).

Not only that, but many squads will wear the heraldry of their sergeant, mixing elements of their own personal markings with ones common to their leader and thus the squad as a whole. Sometimes they'll evenwear heraldry associated with a long dead Astartes that they feel a link to - a previous owner of their armour, or the one from whom their squad/lodge/whatever originally took it's name. Their own private brotherhood within that of the 1st Company and then the Chapter as a whole.

So there's one answer for you. Veterans can wear white or red, but they don't have to if they would prefer their own heraldry, or their squad traditionally prefers to wear their sergeant's.

[EDIT] On an unrelated note, this week I finished listening to The Talon of Horus audiobook, and I have to say that it's now probably my favourite GW novel. I strongly urge anyone with even a passing interest in the Black Legion or the Thousand Sons to pick it up for themselves, the characters especially are wonderful. Even Ezekiel Abaddon is virtually nothing like what I expected, but at the same time, exactly perfect for the story. :smallsmile:

comicshorse

2015-07-27, 06:09 PM

I've just started reading 'Legacies of Betrayal' and am rather unimpressed. Thinking about it the Horus Heresy series hasn't had a really good novel since 'Betrayer' and that was seven books ago !
I suspect that by trying to stretch the damn thing out so much GW has spread the story to thin, or had to draught in second rate authors/ got the good authors to hurry things to keep churning out the books :smallfurious:

Cheesegear

2015-07-27, 10:55 PM

I suspect that by trying to stretch the damn thing out so much GW has spread the story to thin

The three major releases the last year were short story compliations. The Heresy is basically done. The Burning of Prospero and the Battle of Calth basically happen at the same time, taking the Space Wolves and Ultramarines out of the Battle of Terra. Like, during the Battle of Calth, is when the Battle of Terra takes place, and the Space Wolves show up just late enough to save the day, freeing Dorn to leave the fight and rescue Dad.
(I hope when Dorn goes to The Vengeful Spirit, he locks eyes with Abaddon and kicks the **** out of him)

The story is pretty much done. All of the major events that need to happen, have happened. The Alpha Legion have crippled the Raven Guard, Space Wolves burned Prospero, Word Bearers attacked Calth. Rogal Dorn decided that **** got real way back in Eisenstein, Dorn has also chewed out Sigismund, and now Sigismund is gearing up to be the biggest badass the Imperium has ever seen.
All the pieces to start the Battle of Terra have been laid down. Anything else is just filler.

The problem is finding filler that you like. I'm currently enjoying John French's Tallarn series.

13_CBS

2015-07-28, 06:44 AM

The story is pretty much done. All of the major events that need to happen, have happened.

Technically, I suppose we still need to see the events that cause Magnus to step off the proverbial fence? But yes, people have been complaining that the Battle of Terra is otherwise all set up and waiting to happen for some time now.

Cheesegear

2015-07-28, 07:04 AM

Technically, I suppose we still need to see the events that cause Magnus to step off the proverbial fence?

Uhh...The Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns duology has been out for a while.
Unless you mean "When does Magnus start actually serving Tzeentch?" ...He doesn't. Never has, never will. Magnus was coerced into the union (Join or die), and seeks desperately to get out of it. Then Ahriman's goal - which he's open about - is killing and supplanting Tzeentch.

comicshorse

2015-07-28, 10:44 AM

But yes, people have been complaining that the Battle of Terra is otherwise all set up and waiting to happen for some time now.

And yet we never get any closer. I'd got every book of the series up to now but I'm not going to get another until they actually stop trying to wring out every last drop of profit and get to Terra ( well maybe if ADB writes it I might relent :smallsmile:)

hamishspence

2015-07-28, 10:47 AM

Given that Bill King's started writing for 40K again (The Solar Macharius trilogy) - maybe he'll get to write the full-length version of the Battle of Terra?

13_CBS

2015-07-28, 06:20 PM

Uhh...The Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns duology has been out for a while.

...no. The part where Magnus goes from "Daddy killed my planet and buddies, but eh, still not sure about Horus..." to openly joining the traitors. As of Aurelian and Betrayer, Magnus still seemed on the fence about things--I'm assuming (hoping?) that the upcoming The Crimson King novel will address this.

Cheesegear

2015-07-29, 01:10 AM

If 40K authors were movie Directors...

ADB - Ridley Scott. Masterpiece after masterpiece. What would a 'bad' novel even look like? Nobody knows, 'cause nobody's seen it. If you don't like ADB, it's probably 'cause you didn't understand the story. Maybe you need to read something with more explosions in it?
Abnett - James Cameron. A fair effort. Solid storytelling, solid pieces. Does things 'first', and gets points mostly for that, but, other authors build on his work and can do much better things. But those authors couldn't write what they write if Abnett hadn't laid down the groundwork, first. His stories that he tells are pretty much the same as anywhere else, just with an ever so slightly different spin that makes things almost feel new.
McNeill - Steven Spielberg. Broad appeal. Storytelling isn't particularly unique, but characters are done very well. Simplicity is both part of his charm, and his downfall.
James Swallow - George Lucas (pre-Episode I). Technically, very proficient, fraught with problems, but the book gets done and things turn out mostly okay.
Ben Counter - J.J Abrams. Characters are okay, plot is okay, but the set pieces are amazing. Puts things in books 'because its cool', and what other motivation do you really need?
Sandy Mitchell - Joss Whedon. Not nearly as clever as he thinks he is. Criticized by many, defended by many more. His fanboys don't or wont realise that he's just doing the same thing over and over again, just in different settings. But, if you're having fun, does it really matter that the story isn't actually any good?
Nick Kyme - George Lucas (post-Episode 1). Who even knows if what he churns out next will be good? There's some good ones, but there are also some really bad ones.

hamishspence

2015-07-29, 01:32 AM

...no. The part where Magnus goes from "Daddy killed my planet and buddies, but eh, still not sure about Horus..." to openly joining the traitors.

In Scars, Magnus is still a bit ghostly - but is restored in some way by the Khan.

The message in Visions of Treachery, after Istvann V, in which Magnus tells Horus he's now on Horus's side - I think was referenced in Fulgrim, although not shown.

13_CBS

2015-07-29, 06:53 AM

The message in Visions of Treachery, after Istvann V, in which Magnus tells Horus he's now on Horus's side - I think was referenced in Fulgrim, although not shown.

Wait, Magnus openly joins Horus around the time of Fulgrim? But I thought Magnus was still undecided as of at least Aurelian, if not Betrayer...

I...I think I'll file this away under "Horus Heresy Inconsistencies That We Don't Ask Too Many Questions About", alongside the whole Magnus' warning thing.

ADB - Ridley Scott. Masterpiece after masterpiece. What would a 'bad' novel even look like? Nobody knows, 'cause nobody's seen it. If you don't like ADB, it's probably 'cause you didn't understand the story. Maybe you need to read something with more explosions in it?

For what it's worth, there's a slew of people on 4chan who think poorly of ADB's Horus Heresy works for being too much about "daddy issues", but when I pointed out to them that "daddy issues" are still a lot more interesting than "and then brother bolterius boltered the traitor marine in teh face" novels, no one really seemed to have an answer.

Also: I'm not entirely sure if I'd describe ALL of Ridley Scott's works as masterpieces. There was a good bit of criticism aimed at Prometheus, as I recall. I'm personally more inclined to compare ADB to Christopher Nolan--takes what's often sometimes derided as being simplistic and or "kiddy" and making an excellent, gritty, meaningful story out of it (though I can't say I'm a film expert by any means).

comicshorse

2015-07-29, 08:12 AM

.

Also: I'm not entirely sure if I'd describe ALL of Ridley Scott's works as masterpieces. There was a good bit of criticism aimed at Prometheus, as I recall.

While I do think its asking a lot to expect anybody's work to be all masterpieces I'd add 'A Good Year', 'G.I. Jane', 'Matchstick Men' and 'Robin Hood' to the less than brilliant list

13_CBS

2015-07-29, 08:47 PM

While I do think its asking a lot to expect anybody's work to be all masterpieces I'd add 'A Good Year', 'G.I. Jane', 'Matchstick Men' and 'Robin Hood' to the less than brilliant list

True enough. Point is, when you're looking for an example of a filmmaker who can do no wrong, Ridley Scott isn't the first person I'd think of...

Abnett - James Cameron. A fair effort. Solid storytelling, solid pieces. Does things 'first', and gets points mostly for that, but, other authors build on his work and can do much better things. But those authors couldn't write what they write if Abnett hadn't laid down the groundwork, first. His stories that he tells are pretty much the same as anywhere else, just with an ever so slightly different spin that makes things almost feel new.

I'm inclined to agree, I think. Abnett is a solid writer, but for me he pales in comparison to ADB since his character arcs tend not to be as interesting, and a lot of his stories feel more like a series of cool things that happen to cool people--compare to ADB, where Betrayer feels more like both the story of Lorgar, Angron, Kharn, and Argel Tal doing cool things AND also a tale of, well, betrayal and what it means to betray.

Ben Counter - J.J Abrams. Characters are okay, plot is okay, but the set pieces are amazing. Puts things in books 'because its cool', and what other motivation do you really need?

Oof...that's the sort of mentality that played a huge part in making the Prequel Star Wars Trilogy so awful...

Cheesegear

2015-07-29, 10:40 PM

For what it's worth, there's a slew of people on 4chan who think poorly of ADB's Horus Heresy works for being too much about "daddy issues"

The entire Heresy is Daddy Issues, that's kind of the point of the Heresy in general. Even the good guys have issues. Guilliman thinks that Dad sucks, and Dorn only wants Dad to love him.

But what about the Armageddon duology? What about the Night Lords trilogy? What about Emperor's Gift...Okay, that last one isn't great.

Okay, maybe 'all Masterpieces, all the time' is a bit of a stretch, but 'Gift wasn't even bad. That said, even Ridley Scott's bad movies aren't even that bad. I stand by my comparison. I just have to change it a little bit. Exodus: Gods and Kings had problems (white guys playing Egyptians), but it was still a very technically proficient movie.

There was a good bit of criticism aimed at Prometheus, as I recall.

As I recall, the counterpoint was that people who criticised Prometheus 'probably didn't understand it'. I believe I mentioned that.

I'm personally more inclined to compare ADB to Christopher Nolan

"If you hated Interstellar, or Inception it's because you didn't understand it.", comparison works. :smallwink:

While I do think its asking a lot to expect anybody's work to be all masterpieces I'd add 'A Good Year', 'G.I. Jane', 'Matchstick Men' and 'Robin Hood' to the less than brilliant list

'Less than brilliant', sure. As I said, 'Nothing but masterpieces' is a stretch, and I realise that now.
But Matchstick Men and Robin Hood weren't even that bad. As I said above, even Scott's 'bad movies' aren't all that bad.

True enough. Point is, when you're looking for an example of a filmmaker who can do no wrong, Ridley Scott isn't the first person I'd think of...

I don't think there is such a person. I'd be willing to say Kenneth Branagh, but I don't think people in this thread will know who that is.
George Miller goes from Mad Max to Babe to Happy Feet, and then back to 'Max without missing a beat.

Ooh. I know. John Carpenter. And then we get Kurt Russell to play Sevatar.

Betrayer feels more like both the story of Lorgar, Angron, Kharn, and Argel Tal doing cool things AND also a tale of, well, betrayal and what it means to betray.

I still think that the title refers to Erebus, more than anyone else.

Oof...that's the sort of mentality that played a huge part in making the Prequel Star Wars Trilogy so awful...

Not really. What made the prequel trilogy was Lucas trying to appeal to children, and creating a movie that is merchandisable for extended profits long after the movie's release.

Compare to Abrams' Star Trek, where the Away Mission, has the team paradrop through a debris field and Sulu having a sword fight. There's no merchandising ability there, but it certainly looks cool, and he also gave us 'FIRE EVERYTHING!!!'.
Which is why I think the comparison works even better for Counter. Counter gave us a renegade Drider Librarian as a good guy, and a Grey Knight as a Champion of Khorne. Counter changes things up, because it's cooler than not. Abrams completely changed Star Trek as we used to know it.

13_CBS

2015-07-29, 11:07 PM

The entire Heresy is Daddy Issues, that's kind of the point of the Heresy in general. Even the good guys have issues. Guilliman thinks that Dad sucks, and Dorn only wants Dad to love him.

Indeed, and that's part of the reason why I love [some of] it so much.

However, 4chan seems to be of the opinion that it should be about how Horus went nuts on Chaos and then boltered everything in a cool way, and then everyone boltered stuff together on Terra until the Emperor went up and boltered Horus (but not before Horus boltered Ollanius Pious!)

Point is, there are folks who don't like ADB very much. Whether their opinion on this matter is worth anything is up to you.

I don't think there is such a person. I'd be willing to say Kenneth Branagh, but I don't think people in this thread will know who that is.

My high school acting friends tell me that his portrayal of Hamlet in, well, Hamlet was, I quote, "Actor's Porn" due to the sheer quality. I'm also not an expert on Shakespeare by any means, but I thought the rest of the movie was quite good, despite the incredible length.

...not even Branagh's mastery of Shakespeare, however, could make me really enjoy the first Thor movie...

I still think that the title refers to Erebus, more than anyone else.

Perhaps--ADB did go on record to say that the title could refer to multiple characters at the same time (the Word Bearers, the World Eaters, their respective human retinues, Argel Tal, Kharn, Lorgar, Angron, Erebus...) I did feel, though, that the story was primarily concerned with the development and fleshing out of Kharn and Angron, with a good helping of Lorgar and Argel Tal, and I really liked said development and fleshing out. Can't say the same for Ravenor and crew--oh no, Thonius felt bad about himself and now he's a demon! Time to purge!

Not really. What made the prequel trilogy was Lucas trying to appeal to children, and creating a movie that is merchandisable for extended profits long after the movie's release.

He also killed the pacing of his scenes and chocked them up with visual clutter for the sake of "it's cool so let's throw it in". You're also right in that a lot of that was done to make the movie more merchandisable...but I don't think that explains why he made the podracing scene and the final Anakin-Kenobi battle that long, or have such overly choreographed lightsaber battle scenes.

Even if the above isn't true and indeed the primary reason the Star Wars Prequel Trilogy was bad primarily because of Lucas trying to make it into a merchandizing vehicle, I still assert that "putting stuff into something just because it's cool" is not a very good mindset. See: Guillermo del Toro's Pacific Rim. Such a mindset, I think, runs the risk of prioritizing spectacle over more important things like characterization, pacing, and plot, and putting style before substance.

As I recall, the counterpoint was that people who criticised Prometheus 'probably didn't understand it'. I believe I mentioned that.

Hrm, most of the criticism I heard was over a lot of the characters seemingly doing stupid things for the sake of drama/scaring the audience/ratcheting up the tension. I.e.: the donut-shaped spaceship is falling on you vertically, so you...run straight away from it instead of to the side? (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2012/06/13) Or, why is the biology expert doing something as stupidly reckless as petting the obviously hissing and hostile snake-worm thing? Or, how did the geologist expert whose awesome drones mapped out the entire alien ruin get lost? (Sure he did get spooked and run away, but you'd think he could find his way out afterwards.) Etc.

Or do these fall under "didn't understand the movie"? I'm honestly not sure, since I've never seen the movie and therefore can't properly judge the validity of these criticisms.

Cheesegear

2015-07-29, 11:58 PM

However, 4chan seems to be of the opinion that it should be about how Horus went nuts on Chaos and then boltered everything in a cool way

Using 4chan to prove your argument? Really?
Ignoring that, terrible idea, then the Heresy is like five, maybe six or seven books, total.

The original trilogy; Erebus gets sword, Horus gets stabbed, turns evil.

We get one anthology of short stories - Alpharius tells Erebus to STFU when Primarchs are talking, and why is Erebus even in the room? Horus derp-modes and lets Erebus stay. Something about Fulgrim, Alas, poor Yorrick! with Ferrus' skull, Horus finally rips off Erebus' face for backtalk. Get Leman Russ to fight Magnus, which is actually kind of Lorgar's plan (but we'd never find that out). Nothing else matters.
Straight to Vengeful Spirit, because nothing else is important.
Battle of Terra happens.

But then we'd get stories of what happened at Prospero? When is Black Library going to do the Battle of Calth? Why is Perterabo even on Horus' side? What happens to the loyalist Legions are Istvaan? How come no-one ever talks about Sigismund? What's up with Sanguinius? Tell us more about Captain Amit. When did Konrad Curze become Night Haunter? Why? When did Lorgar turn? Did Magnus know about Lorgar? Why didn't anybody stop him? How come there are so many gaps in the story?

Basically, we're getting what we want anyway, just not in a timely fashion. 'Cause it turns out that books actually take a while to write. The other thing is, we already know what happens at the Battle of Terra. Khan holds the spaceport, allowing the Space Wolves to land. Dorn, for once in his entire life, thinks Dad is wrong, and gathers all the Librarians he can get his hands on, and holds Eternity Gate, until Sanguinius does a backbreaker on a Bloodthirster in the sky and demoralises the traitor Legions so hard, Kharn gets thrown off the top of Eternity Gate itself by a badass warrior, who since forever has been assumed to be Sigismund.
With Librarians and Blood Angels holding the line, Leman Russ and Khan doing their jam, Dorn teleports to Vengeful Spirit, to find Sanguinius dead, and Dad bleeding out. Dorn can probably punch Abaddon through the wall and end the Traitor threat once and for all, but instead chooses to save Dad - like Dorn would do anything else - and Abaddon runs off with one of Horus' Lightning Claws.
Guilliman shows up super late to the party, picks off the stragglers and takes all the credit. Leman Russ and Dorn, fresh with the death of Sanguinius, tell Guilliman to leave, right now, or they'll be violence. Guilliman wasn't there, and he has no right.

That, doesn't appeal to me. I already know that story. So do a lot of people. What people don't know, is what happens between Istvaan and Terra. So that's what we're getting.

Point is, there are folks who don't like ADB very much. Whether their opinion on this matter is worth anything is up to you.

But, there are like, five writers of the Heresy? Why single out ADB? That doesn't make any sense. Especially when you factor in ADB's non-Heresy works, just like you should factor in everyone else's non-Heresy works.

...not even Branagh's mastery of Shakespeare, however, could make me really enjoy the first Thor movie...

But the first Thor movie was Hamlet. In Space! That's why Branagh directed it in the first place!
...Or is that your point?

hamishspence

2015-07-30, 02:09 AM

The other thing is, we already know what happens at the Battle of Terra. Khan holds the spaceport, allowing the Space Wolves to land. Dorn, for once in his entire life, thinks Dad is wrong, and gathers all the Librarians he can get his hands on, and holds Eternity Gate, until Sanguinius does a backbreaker on a Bloodthirster in the sky and demoralises the traitor Legions so hard, Kharn gets thrown off the top of Eternity Gate itself by a badass warrior, who since forever has been assumed to be Sigismund.
With Librarians and Blood Angels holding the line, Leman Russ and Khan doing their jam, Dorn teleports to Vengeful Spirit, to find Sanguinius dead, and Dad bleeding out. Dorn can probably punch Abaddon through the wall and end the Traitor threat once and for all, but instead chooses to save Dad - like Dorn would do anything else - and Abaddon runs off with one of Horus' Lightning Claws.
Guilliman shows up super late to the party, picks off the stragglers and takes all the credit. Leman Russ and Dorn, fresh with the death of Sanguinius, tell Guilliman to leave, right now, or they'll be violence. Guilliman wasn't there, and he has no right.

What? The Space Wolves, just like the Dark Angels, didn't arrive until very late. It was their approach, that caused Horus to drop the shields, in the hope of baiting the Emperor aboard - which happens.

A more interesting question - how does Sanguinius go from newly crowned Regent of Ultramar "Imperium Secundus" to fighting at Terra? And how does The Lion end up with his forces and Russ's, together, rushing to Terra only to arrive too late?

LeSwordfish

2015-07-30, 02:31 AM

Now Branagh has been mentioned with regard to 40k, he's my locked-in choice to play Ciaphas Cain.

Wraith

2015-07-30, 04:39 AM

A more interesting question - how does Sanguinius go from newly crowned Regent of Ultramar "Imperium Secundus" to fighting at Terra? And how does The Lion end up with his forces and Russ's, together, rushing to Terra only to arrive too late?

While it's very poorly defined by the books - probably because the series has been spun out over so many years by so many authors - I've always been under the impression that the razing of Prospero, the burning of Calth, the slaughter on Signus Prime and the Night Lords' ambush on the Dark Angels all happen at more or less exactly the same time.

Which makes sense - the disruption of the Warp caused by the Istvaan Massacre is wide-reaching, but only temporary. The Traitors are on the clock and they have to get a lot done before they make it to Terra, so as a result the Blood Angels meet with Guilleman and take the direct route home, which means they arrive there first/at the same time as the White Scars*. The Wolves are delayed because they take so long burning Magnus' planet, and the Dark Angels are in a very remote part of the galaxy and have to let El'Johnson recover from his wounds at the hands of Sevatar, thus - all warp related nonsense accounted for - they both arrive later.

* Which, if I'm any judge, will probably be one of the books released in the next wave. Right now Dorn holds Terra alone and, while sort-of-mostly sure about Sanguinius (although he might get suspicious when he realises that the Angel is deliberately hiding a secret from him), very few people know what the Khan has up to. In fact, the only thing that I think Dorn knows about the White Scars, comes from the traitors that Nathaniel Garro killed when he picked up Varen for the Knights-Errant - for all he knows, the Khan might be a traitor to?
I'd be very disappointed if someone didn't take the opportunity to write a story about the three Primarchs all meeting at Terra and being forced to come to terms with each other in a very short time, probably while some Alpha Legionnaires wander around giving them a reason to distrust each other.

hamishspence

2015-07-30, 06:15 AM

While it's very poorly defined by the books - probably because the series has been spun out over so many years by so many authors - I've always been under the impression that the razing of Prospero, the burning of Calth, the slaughter on Signus Prime and the Night Lords' ambush on the Dark Angels all happen at more or less exactly the same time.

Which makes sense - the disruption of the Warp caused by the Istvaan Massacre is wide-reaching, but only temporary. The Traitors are on the clock and they have to get a lot done before they make it to Terra, so as a result the Blood Angels meet with Guilleman and take the direct route home, which means they arrive there first/at the same time as the White Scars*. The Wolves are delayed because they take so long burning Magnus' planet, and the Dark Angels are in a very remote part of the galaxy and have to let El'Johnson recover from his wounds at the hands of Sevatar, thus - all warp related nonsense accounted for - they both arrive later.

They seem to be going with a much longer timeframe - The Unremembered Empire is at least 2 years after the Calth incident - and that's when Sanguinius and the Lion arrive at Ultramar. After a certain amount of debate, the Lion and Guilliman compromise on "who should be Regent" by both nominating Sanguinius.

The Wolves aren't delayed by Prospero - but by the Alpha Legion. The White Scars pay a visit to Prospero after the Istvann V Massacre - and Khan has a conversation with Magnus's "ghost" and a fight with Mortarion - Scars novel. Only then do they head for Terra.

The Ruinstorm (ritual completed in Betrayer) is the warpstorm that's responsible for much of the travel delays. Guilliman's response is to create his own Astronomicon equivalent - and it's that, which attracts various loyalist groups. At the end of the The Crimson Fist novella, Pollux follows it - to Ultramar (he's surprised that it's not Terra). At the end of Fear to Tread, Sanguinius's battlegroup follows it. And after nearly two years of constant battle with the Night Lords, the Lion arrives at Ultramar the same way. As far as I can tell in The Unremembered Empire, his wounds from Sevatar aren't a problem anymore.

13_CBS

2015-07-30, 06:39 AM

Using 4chan to prove your argument? Really?

Given that my argument was "there are some people who don't like ADB": yes. However, you can infer what I think about 4chan's opinion on this when I said:

However, 4chan seems to be of the opinion that it should be about how Horus went nuts on Chaos and then boltered everything in a cool way, and then everyone boltered stuff together on Terra until the Emperor went up and boltered Horus (but not before Horus boltered Ollanius Pious!)

And as I said before:

but when I pointed out to [4channers] that "daddy issues" are still a lot more interesting than "and then brother bolterius boltered the traitor marine in teh face" novels, no one really seemed to have an answer.

Ignoring that, terrible idea, then the Heresy is like five, maybe six or seven books, total.

Perhaps that might have been better? A common criticism I've seen about the Horus Heresy novels--and I don't hear this from just 4chan--is that there are way, waaay too many books out there. (Some have even argued that there should never have been a Horus Heresy novel series in the first place.)

But, there are like, five writers of the Heresy? Why single out ADB? That doesn't make any sense. Especially when you factor in ADB's non-Heresy works, just like you should factor in everyone else's non-Heresy works.

I never said ADB was singled out. The "ADB only writes daddy-issues" opinion popped up when someone asked for Horus Heresy novel recommendations. Someone recommended ADB, and a couple of posters went "pfft, ADB only writes daddy issues, whatever". It wasn't singling out, and there was no mention of ADB's non-Horus Heresy works.

But the first Thor movie was Hamlet. In Space! That's why Branagh directed it in the first place!

Nah, my point was that I didn't like it despite Branagh's skill in the highly lauded field of Shakespearean plays. I found that the dialogue felt rather stilted and awkward at times.

hamishspence

2015-07-30, 06:48 AM

I'm wondering how they'll handle Nurgle Mortarion. Will he be an overgrown Plague Marine during the Battle of Terra - or will he be like the classic "daemon primarch Mortarion" model, with wings and robes?

Will there be a book focusing on the Death Guard's wholesale turn to Nurgle? Perhaps Typhon could be the viewpoint character, the way Kharn and Argel Tal were viewpoint characters in Betrayer.

Index Astartes suggests that the Chaos Gods did not promote Mortarion to Daemon Prince until after the Heresy.

Cheesegear

2015-07-30, 07:52 AM

Perhaps that might have been better? A common criticism I've seen about the Horus Heresy novels--and I don't hear this from just 4chan--is that there are way, waaay too many books out there.

As I've said, everything from Unremembered Empire - perhaps even Vengeful Spirit - onwards, is filler. But, I only think we've reached that point, now. Pretty much every Legion and Primarch has had at least one novel dedicated to them. By my own reckoning, the Heresy Series needs to be at least 18 novels long. At the time of this post, there are 36 main novels, 9 of which are anthologies, so we'll call it 27 books. Of those 27, which novels don't deal with Primarchs, specifically?

Eisenstein; This novel matters because it's the point when Loyalists get in on the action. But, it's mostly irrelevant, save the fact that it serves for Swallow's starting point for his Knights Errant series, but, largely, the novel doesn't really matter.
Mechanicum: Sure, it doesn't matter overmuch? But would people really prefer that the novel didn't exist?
Nemesis: Second filler-novel by Swallow. :smallconfused:
Outcast Dead: Second filler-novel by McNeill. But, again, I would prefer that this novel existed, rather than it didn't. Severian matters later on.
Then, fast forward three years to
Vengeful Spirit: Somehow, Swallow was convinced to hand over his Knights Errant to McNeill...Who proceeded to kill half of them. But that's okay, because the Knights Errant have to finish out the Heresy with only eight surviving members anyway.

So, of those 27 novels, only five, don't really matter. Which makes 22 novels, that actually matter, compared the 18, minimum, that I need to sate my own taste. But, like I said, I believe we've only hit that point, now.
While the two Dark Angel novels suck, they at least have some story, and explain what Lion is doing, which is important. Because otherwise we'd be asking what Lion has been doing the whole time.

What are writers supposed to do while the Battle of Terra isn't being written? I sure hope it's not nothing. Does Black Library release nothing, while it doesn't release the Battle of Terra? Of course not. So, authors write filler - and short stories/novellas - so they can eat food and pay rent, and Black Library makes money.

But, yeah. BL can't milk the Heresy for too much longer, everything's been done.

comicshorse

2015-07-30, 08:54 AM

As I've said, everything from Unremembered Empire - perhaps even Vengeful Spirit - onwards, is filler. But, I only think we've reached that point, now..

I'd pretty much agree with this but add 'Vulkan Lives' to the filler list. I know it did fill in how Vulkan got from Isstan V to 'The Unremembered Empire' but from the amount it added to the development of the characters involved it might as well have never existed.

Pretty much every Legion and Primarch has had at least one novel dedicated to them

Apart from poor, poor Mortarion :smallfrown:
And to think Peturabo moans about never getting any attention

But, yeah. BL can't milk the Heresy for too much longer, everything's been done.

I hope you're right but it doesn't look like the next in the series, 'Tallarn:Executioner' is getting us any closer so I think BL is still determined to be milking

Cheesegear

2015-07-30, 09:01 AM

I hope you're right but it doesn't look like the next in the series, 'Tallarn:Executioner' is getting us any closer so I think BL is still determined to be milking

Uhh...Tallarn: Executioner is a short story, written in 2013. Do you mean Tallarn: Ironclad? Also a short story part of the larger Tallarn series. But still not main continuity.

EDIT: Basically like like all those Garro stories that come out. Except with 'Tallarn' on the front instead.

Magentawolf

2015-07-30, 09:06 AM

What are writers supposed to do while the Battle of Terra isn't being written? I sure hope it's not nothing. Does Black Library release nothing, while it doesn't release the Battle of Terra? Of course not. So, authors write filler - and short stories/novellas - so they can eat food and pay rent, and Black Library makes money.

Sure, but they don't have to make those novels part of the Heresy; it just feels annoyingly bloated at the moment.

comicshorse

2015-07-30, 09:14 AM

Uhh...Tallarn: Executioner is a short story, written in 2013. Do you mean Tallarn: Ironclad? Also a short story part of the larger Tallarn series. But still not main continuity.

EDIT: Basically like like all those Garro stories that come out. Except with 'Tallarn' on the front instead.

My copy of 'Legacies of Betrayal' has an extract form 'Tallarn: Executioner' and its cover with Horus Heresy splashed all over it so I assumed it was the next in the series. But a check reveals its a novella that is already out so Mea Culpa :smalleek:

P.S.
Speaking of 'Legacies of Betrayal' I really liked Anthony Reynolds short story 'The Eightfold Path'. What has he done in 40K that people would recommend ?

hamishspence

2015-07-30, 09:20 AM

Apart from poor, poor Mortarion :smallfrown:
And to think Peturabo moans about never getting any attention

The closest to a Mortarion novel was Flight of the Eisenstein - and, like in Scars, he was secondary and other characters were primary.

A case could be made that Perturabo's novel - Angel Exterminatus - was more about Fulgrim than him - even if he appeared on the cover.

Ferrus also hasn't really gotten much focus, due to being killed off.

And I suppose Konrad Curze and Rogan Dorn could be said to have only ever been "supporting cast" in full-length novels, as well.

Cheesegear

2015-07-30, 09:22 AM

Speaking of 'Legacies of Betrayal' I really liked Anthony Reynolds short story 'The Eightfold Path'. What has he done in 40K that people would recommend ?

I heartily recommend the Word Bearers trilogy, it also happens to be the only thing he's done.

A case could be made that Perturabo's novel - Angel Exterminatus - was more about Fulgrim than him - even if he appeared on the cover.

The Iron Warriors make many appearances in the aforementioned Tallarn series.

And I suppose Konrad Curze and Rogan Dorn could be said to have only ever been "supporting cast" in full-length novels, as well.

Dorn will get his time during the Battle of Terra, where he is a key player.

comicshorse

2015-07-30, 09:24 AM

Ferrus also hasn't really gotten much focus, due to being killed off.

Ferrus gets one of the novella's in 'The Primarchs' to himself
And looking at it the Lion really seems to get more than his share of the limelight (or maybe I just don't find him interesting and so begrudge him any)

Posted by Cheesegear

I heartily recommend the Word Bearers trilogy, it also happens to be the only thing he's done.

Well that makes for an easy decision :smallsmile:

hamishspence

2015-07-30, 09:27 AM

Ferrus gets one of the novella's in 'The Primarchs' to himself
And looking at it the Lion really seems to get more than his share of the limelight (or maybe I just don't find him interesting and so begrudge him any)

That said - while there's 2 Dark Angels novels, they're not really about The Lion. The focus is far more on his Legion, and Luthor.

comicshorse

2015-08-07, 11:24 AM

Do 40K Orcs require food and water or do they just need sunlight ? I'm wondering because if they do need at least water then what the hell was the point of the Whitescars fighting them on Chondax ?

Wraith

2015-08-07, 12:13 PM

Mechanicum: Sure, it doesn't matter overmuch? But would people really prefer that the novel didn't exist?

I've just recently finished Mechanicum, and I've come to two conclusions about it.

The first is that it's twice as long as it needs to be. The story of Mars' divided loyalties and the fall of the Fabricator General, with the implications that means for the Loyalists who are now starting a war with virtually no backstocks of equipment, is one that definitely needs to be told because it puts focus on the desperate position of the Imperium. It also sets up significant motivation for a huge key faction throughout the Heresy and explains significant logistics on both sides that resonate for the next 10,000 years. Same goes for the Knight Houses.

Everything written about Dahlia, her Scooby Gang and the Labyrinth, however? Trash, boring, nothing to do with anything, and I doubt that it will ever be revisited. I actually started skipping whole paragraphs at a time, because I knew that it wasn't going anywhere.

Secondly, I learned that Graham McNeill is an even poorer author than I first thought. While I got through Fulgrim thinking that he really needs an editor - or maybe just a thesaurus - on hand at all times, Mechanicum genuinely made me cringe. No professional author should be allowed to use a phrase like "painful lances of pain" and not have to answer for it.

Do 40K Orcs require food and water or do they just need sunlight ?

Yes, they need food and water to survive, though they can survive for far longer without than a human, and their definition of 'food' is far, far more lax too.

I'm wondering because if they do need at least water then what the hell was the point of the Whitescars fighting them on Chondax ?

Because "Suffer not to live the mutant, the alien, the heretic", that's why. :smallbiggrin:

comicshorse

2015-08-07, 07:33 PM

Because "Suffer not to live the mutant, the alien, the heretic", that's why. :smallbiggrin:

But there is no food or water on Chondax and the Orcs had no ships. So really you could just let them die of thirst rather than throw innumerable resources and waste hundreds of Space Marines lives

DaedalusMkV

2015-08-07, 08:55 PM

But there is no food or water on Chondax and the Orcs had no ships. So really you could just let them die of thirst rather than throw innumerable resources and waste hundreds of Space Marines lives

Are there rocks?

Squiqs can survive off of rocks. Orks can survive off of Squigs. Squigs naturally occur wherever Orks can be found.

If it has an atmosphere, it can probably support an Orkish ecosystem.

comicshorse

2015-08-08, 05:22 AM

Are there rocks?

Squiqs can survive off of rocks. Orks can survive off of Squigs. Squigs naturally occur wherever Orks can be found.

If it has an atmosphere, it can probably support an Orkish ecosystem.

So are you saying they DON'T need water ?

Grim Portent

2015-08-08, 06:40 AM

So are you saying they DON'T need water ?

They can survive off the moisture in their food. The fungi and squigs that form when Orks are around can somehow live off just about anything even without natural water sources, the Orks can then survive off of them, so Orks don't need an actual water supply to survive, though they do need one to thrive.

Voidhawk

2015-08-08, 07:04 AM

So are you saying they DON'T need water ?
Orks neither sweat nor excrete in the same manner as normal species. Their internal biology is very circular, being able to recycle and breakdown basically everything that they don't bleed. Moreover, it automatically adapts to whatever situation the growing ork-cocoon finds itself in: Orks on a desert planet will be even hardier than normal ones, whiles ones born on a water-world might have lungs more akin to gills.

A lack of water (or other biomass) will have negative effects of course, the largest one being that growing new Orks will take far longer than normal. Those that do appear won't mature into Nobs very quickly, and won't be as strong or energetic as normal, being adapted for long-term survival above brute force.

comicshorse

2015-08-08, 10:32 AM

Thanks all for the info. This does make me feel a little better about Chondax

Posted by Grim Portent

They can survive off the moisture in their food. The fungi and squigs that form when Orks are around can somehow live off just about anything even without natural water sources, the Orks can then survive off of them, so Orks don't need an actual water supply to survive, though they do need one to thrive.

This does mean the Squigs are literally getting water from stones. I know, I know 40K science

Grim Portent

2015-08-08, 11:29 AM

Thanks all for the info. This does make me feel a little better about Chondax

Posted by Grim Portent
.

This does mean the Squigs are literally getting water from stones. I know, I know 40K science

There are ways to do that, but it requires the ability to extract hydrogen and oxygen atoms from the environment and synthesize water molecules from them, which is veeeeeery energy intensive.

Voidhawk

2015-08-08, 01:20 PM

This does mean the Squigs are literally getting water from stones. I know, I know 40K science

The Orkoid ecosystem has three components of Orks, Squigs, and Fungus, with Spores being a mediator between three. I would bet that all nutrient extraction occurs in the Fungus section.

If I were an Old One designing Kork, I'd program spores that fall in arid regions to grow into a more lichen-like form. They could extract energy from sunlight and use it to liberate water from the air, while growing tendrils underground to seek out any aquifers and protect whatever resources they've acquired. Long story short: cactus-orks.

The Glyphstone

2015-08-08, 01:47 PM

Secondly, I learned that Graham McNeill is an even poorer author than I first thought. While I got through Fulgrim thinking that he really needs an editor - or maybe just a thesaurus - on hand at all times, Mechanicum genuinely made me cringe. No professional author should be allowed to use a phrase like "painful lances of pain" and not have to answer for it.

Please tell me you are exaggerating. I actually liked the Ultramarines books, I don't want my nostalgic bubble burst so easily...

Wraith

2015-08-08, 01:58 PM

This does mean the Squigs are literally getting water from stones. I know, I know 40K science

Bare in mind that the White Scars admit that they don't know how the Orks were being supplied after their in-orbit ships were routed. This isn't the same thing as saying that the Orks were utterly incapable of establishing some sort of supply chain from somewhere - Adeptus Astartes are not, after all, experts on the finer arts of agriculture. :smalltongue:

Just because the Space Marines don't know how it's done, doesn't mean that it's impossible. The Orks had been there far longer, after all, so (while we delve into the realm of non-canon postulation) they could well have found animal or plant life unknown to the Imperium hidden in some otherwise tactically unnoticed region. Heck, it's similarly possible that everything they needed was sent via inter-planetary Telly-Porta technology.

Or, just as likely, resorted to infighting and subsided on the resultant casualties via cannibalism, which is another entirely Orky thing to do. It's a very short-term solution, but fragmented Ork Klans certainly wouldn't baulk at the idea if it meant more fightin' and more lootin'. :smallbiggrin:

Please tell me you are exaggerating. I actually liked the Ultramarines books, I don't want my nostalgic bubble burst so easily...

That's a word for word quote. Sorry. :smallsigh:

I'm not saying that he tells bad stories and that if you like his works then you are a bad person, or anything of the sort. But having grown up on a steady diet of Terry Pratchett, Neil Gaiman and Douglas Adams, and recently experiencing the wondrous examples set by Aaron Demski-Bowden in Night Lords and Talon of Horus especially, I can't help but find McNeill's technical skills to be... lacking.

Cheesegear

2015-08-08, 07:39 PM

I'm not saying that he tells bad stories and that if you like his works then you are a bad person, or anything of the sort. But having grown up on a steady diet of Terry Pratchett, Neil Gaiman and Douglas Adams, and recently experiencing the wondrous examples set by Aaron Demski-Bowden in Night Lords and Talon of Horus especially, I can't help but find McNeill's technical skills to be... lacking.

*shrug*
...and Dan Abnett wrote Pariah. They can't all be winners. Especially when you churn 'em out at the rate that McNeill does. Forge of Mars was good, Ultramarines is good, especially when continuity happens and the Iron Warriors crosses over. Book, after book, after book, after book.

Douglas Adams wrote Hitchhiker's Guide..., I guess. I've literally not ever heard or seen anything else that Adams has ever written.

ADB is a very strong writer, I agree, but, until he has the volume of work that Abnett and McNeill do, averages wont really play out. Surely not everything that ADB writes will be gold, it'll happen eventually. Not all of Terry Pratchett's books were good, either (and I'm not just talking about the pre-Mort books). Eventually stuff runs out of steam...Unless you quit while you're ahead.

DataNinja

2015-08-08, 08:31 PM

Douglas Adams wrote Hitchhiker's Guide..., I guess. I've literally not ever heard or seen anything else that Adams has ever written.

Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency. Long Dark Tea Time of the Soul. Last Chance to See.

All are fairly good, but not as high profile as Hitchhikers. And less comedy.

Wraith

2015-08-09, 06:08 AM

Not all of Terry Pratchett's books were good, either (and I'm not just talking about the pre-Mort books). Eventually stuff runs out of steam...Unless you quit while you're ahead.

I don't disagree with any of the above. Frankly, everything after Going Postal was formulaic and uninspiring, to my mind.
But even as the stories struggled, Pratchett never failed to craft some exquisite metaphors and turns of phrase that stuck with me. McNeill, though I'm prepared to believe he can write good stories, has never the less come across as having a stunted vocabulary and none of the books that I have so far experienced (little beyond his Horus Heresy novels, for full disclosure) have really left me satisfied in the same way.

They can't all be winners. Especially when you churn 'em out at the rate that McNeill does.

Herein lies the problem, I think. Combined, Black Library and Games Workshop have access to an virtually infinite pool of talent, and yet they turn over huge amounts of Graham McNeill (and, even more bizarrely, keep going back to Mitchel Scanlon :smallconfused: ) - again, I don't dislike the guy or anything, but I feel their whole range would be improved by a little more diversity and less reliance on the same four or five guys over and over.

I don't believe it would be that much of a risky business venture. Hire a new guy and have him write a book about, say, the Imperial Fists - people WILL buy it because it's the first fully IF book to come out (as far as I know?) so they'll at least make profit there even if they don't invite the guy to come back.

Douglas Adams wrote Hitchhiker's Guide..., I guess. I've literally not ever heard or seen anything else that Adams has ever written.

As Dark Shadow said, Dirk Gently is well worth a read. I wasn't as much a fan of Long Dark Tea Time but I appreciate how well it was written, whereas Last Chance To See is non-fiction so it's very, very different from his other works and is intended to be informative rather than purely entertaining. Grab 'em if you can. :smallsmile:

Cheesegear

2015-08-09, 07:40 AM

I don't believe it would be that much of a risky business venture. Hire a new guy and have him write a book about, say, the Imperial Fists - people WILL buy it because it's the first fully IF book to come out (as far as I know?) so they'll at least make profit there even if they don't invite the guy to come back.

Oh, Hell no!
This abomination (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sons_of_Dorn_%28Novel%29), was a copy-paste job of the original Space Marine, except with all the hard sci-fi removed, and...Terribleness put back in its place.
Seventh Retribution (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Seventh_Retribution_%28Novel%29) was kind of lame, with Counter coming off the back of Soul Drinkers, people didn't seem to understand that Ben Counter wasn't writing Imperial Fists, he was writing Soul Drinkers.
Round 2, Counter writes Phalanx, which is both a Soul Drinkers novel and Imperial Fists, and that works really well - aside from the cliffhanger that isn't really a cliffhanger at all and actually kind of pointless. But, overall, Phalanx is a good novel and a fine end to the Soul Drinkers (and I sincerely hope that Counter never, ever writes them again, no more Soul Drinkers books are required. He's done. They're finished. Any elaboration of what happens to the Soul Drinkers after Phalanx will ruin that ending). Now, with two tries at Imperial Fists, Counter knocks it out of the park with Malodrax (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Malodrax_%28Novel%29), and it's really, really good, even if it is a love letter to Lysander, who, turns out, is the worst 'Imperial Fist' in the whole Chapter.

Ultimately, Lysander isn't the hero the Imperial Fists deserve, but he's the hero they need right now - and I'm actually fine with that, because at least it's addressed.

But, at the end of the day, Malodrax and Seventh Retribution (and Phalanx) were written by Ben Counter, who is old hat at this point. One of the 'same five guys' Black Library keeps employing.

The current up-and-comer at Black Library, is John French, who has come over from Fantasy Flight Games after having a hand in the Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch RPGs. Keep an eye on him. Coincidentally, French also wrote Crimson Fist and Templar for the Heresy.

I think what's special about ADB, is that he smashed out Soul Hunter, and then only two months later, released Helsreach. ADB knocked it out of the park, first go. Then only six months later, was drafted into the Heresy, writing First Heretic. That was his first year at Black Library! Holy crap! Not including short stories, because nobody counts those. Drafted into the Heresy, first year.

Whereas if I look at McNeill's Ultramarines, I'm like..."Hnng...It gets better.", but, the same year as Nightbringer, McNeill also wrote Storm of Iron. So, of course nobody paid attention to 'Iron, because Nightbringer was pretty bad. Just like nobody pays attention to anything that Nick Kyme writes, because the first Salamanders novel was just awful.
Ditto for Swallow's Blood Angels. Once he stops writing Mary Sues, he's actually a good author.

I also don't think Abnett's First and Only is any good, and the Ghosts don't get good until Necropolis. But that may be just me, and I'm predisposed to hating the Ghosts because they don't make any sense in the 40K-verse. I'm sure there's somebody who is...Less biased than I am to evaluate the Ghosts for what they are, rather than how much they don't make sense at all.

Just like Terry Pratchett, pre-Mort. Good, but nowhere near what Pratchett could write later on once he knew what he was doing. Anne McCaffrey's first Dragonriders books were...Really bad. But, yet I couldn't put the Acorna series down. Laurel K. Hamilton's Anita Blake don't get good for a long time (but then gets so much worse, somehow), etc.

I could go on, ADB, never had that 'cutting teeth' period. But, that makes him the exception, and therefore an exceptional writer at Black Library.

As Dark Shadow said, Dirk Gently is well worth a read. I wasn't as much a fan of Long Dark Tea Time but I appreciate how well it was written, whereas Last Chance To See is non-fiction so it's very, very different from his other works and is intended to be informative rather than purely entertaining. Grab 'em if you can. :smallsmile:

As I said, I've never heard of those books in my entire life, and I think that says something. But, I'll give anything a read if people recommend it.

LeSwordfish

2015-08-09, 10:41 AM

Dirk gently is well worth a read, though as a sort of sci-fi-philosophical-mystery it never travelled as well outside the UK as the various versions of hitchhiker. It's also worth noting that Adams was primarily a radio and TV writer (he did a lot of Doctor Who) so he's written a lot, even if it's not books.

Voidhawk

2015-08-09, 11:45 AM

DataNinja

2015-08-09, 12:16 PM

Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency is fantastic, better than much of Hitchhiker's Guide IMHO. While Hitchhiker meanders around wildly (like its namesake) Dirk Gently is much tighter and self contained. It is also completely hilarious. One of my favoirite comedy books ever.

Really, I thought with your avatar you'd have liked Hitchhiker better... :smallbiggrin:

lord_khaine

2015-08-09, 02:20 PM

Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency is fantastic, better than much of Hitchhiker's Guide IMHO. While Hitchhiker meanders around wildly (like its namesake) Dirk Gently is much tighter and self contained. It is also completely hilarious. One of my favoirite comedy books ever.

I second this notion and would also recomend those with the time to branch off into the works of Brandon Sanderson.

Especially his "the way of kings"

Wraith

2015-08-26, 03:54 AM

Been thinking lately about the various natures attributed to the Primarchs, and what they might mean in the 'bigger picture' of literature. Be interesting to see if any Playgrounders have an opinion on it.

So, we know that at the time of the Heresy, the Emperor is ~42,000 years old, and has been an ever-present guiding force throughout human history. It's very stringly implied that He has been various historical figures, each in failed attempts to unite humanity under a single banner through different means in a way that he does not succeed in until the 31st millenium.
My own personal theory is that the Emperor was responsible for the rise of the Men of Iron. It's hard to imagine anyone being able to create something as elaborate and advanced as an AI without His knowledge or input, and it explains why - even 12,000 years afterwards - he forbids the creation of AIs in the Imperium, since He doesn't trust anyone else to succeed where even He failed.... but this is somewhat besides the point....

We also know that no one ever sees the Emperor's true face - whoever looks at him sees something slightly different, a different aspect of Him and/or His aura. We also know that the Primarchs are created in sinular images of these aspects - Guilleman is the Statesman, Ferrus Mannus is the Engineer, Lorgar the Orator, and so on.

Theory: Each of the Emperor's aspects are human interpretation of the different 'people' that He has been throughout history, and the Primarchs are recreations of historical figures, with improvements made to compensate in the area where the Emperor originally failed.

I haven't quite found analogies for all 18 Primarchs, and some are a bit tenuous.... But it's been entertaining to speculate about:

Roboute Guilleman - Qin Shi Huang (First emperor of China, who united various warring territories and, at the head of his generals, conquered yet further afield - like the 500 worls of Ultramar.)

Rogal Dorn - Gilgamesh (Babylonian King, famous for building a wall around his city of Uruk and - usually - solving his problems with wisdom rather than violence.)

Sanguinius - Hector of Troy ("The Best" of the Trojans, who died for his brother.)

Jaghatai Khan - Ghengis Khan (Speaks for itself.)

Leman Russ - Beowulf, or Heracles (Boistrous, charismatic and brutal.... but not very bright.)

Lion El'Johnson - King Arthur (Which would imply that the original which was later recreated as the fabled Lion Sword is none other than Excalibur.)

Horus Lupercal - Alexander the Great (Famously "...saw the breadth of his domain, he wept for there were no more worlds to conquer". An apt description of Horus' appointment as Warmaster; especially as a significant temptation of the Chaos powers was that there was only one place left for him to go - the Imperial Throne.)

Lorgar Aurelian - Buddha/Jesus Christ

Angron - Spartacus (He truly preferred death over incarceration and subjugation.)

Perturabo - Imhotep (Architect of the first Egyptian Pyramids)

Night Haunter - Hammurabi (Early Babylonian King, author of one of the first written codes of law which was notorious for it's 'eye for an eye' nature.)

Alpharius/Omegron - Romulus/Remus (Mythical twin who founded the city of Rome)

Magnus the Red - Hernan Cortez (Early explorer and conqueror of Mesoamerica. Charged with spreading the Christian faith to the Aztecs, he instead instigated genocide - arguably a comparison to Magnus' journey to Terra to deliver a 'message' and the disastrous results of his attempt.)

I haven't yet thought of analogues for Mortarion, Fulgrim, Corvus Corax, Vulkan or Ferrus Mannus, but so far the theory has wings. And it's always possible that at least one of these guys represents one of the Emperor's attempts at human unification that occurred after the 3rd millenium.... :smallsmile:

Killer Angel

2015-08-26, 06:16 AM

This does mean the Squigs are literally getting water from stones. I know, I know 40K science

After all, 40k "science" is more focused on wanton destruction, rather than believable ethology...

Cheesegear

2015-08-26, 06:55 AM

I haven't quite found analogies for all 18 Primarchs, and some are a bit tenuous.... But it's been entertaining to speculate about:

It's pretty clear that Vulkan is JC. A humble tradesman, a man of the people, even with the ability to Die and Live Again. Though I'm not entirely sure about how you go about the fact that Vulkan got his people to rise up against the Dark Eldar.

With JC taken, Lorgar becomes Constantine the Great - which makes far more sense, honestly, how can Lorgar be anyone without Aurelius in their name?

Corvus Corax is Spartacus, the Slave who would be King.

The main problem is that Angron is pretty dumb, although it's hard to judge what would have happened if he'd never had the Butcher's Nails. But, let's pretend that Angron should have been as smart his brothers...Spartacus works, I suppose. But Corax fits better. Ragnar Lodbrock works for Angron, if not him...Then one of his sons. After Ragnar gets killed (i.e; murdered by the King of Northumbria), his four sons make a mess of England for ~20 years. But, while Ragnar himself is fairly mysterious, he did exist. At some point... Almost like the Emperor...

Mortarion is...Atilla the Hun? Maybe.

I actually want to say that Perterabo is Odysseus. He wins at Troy (a siege), and comes home to find everything's ruined, murdering the ruiners. Then he cries a bunch at the end.
...Then once we've dipped that pool, we can say that Angron is Ajax and Fulgrim is Achilles. ...But that's not the point of the exercise.

Instead, let's say that Fulgrim and his amazing sword is King Arthur, and that way we get to say that Lion is Charlemagne.

Ferrus Manus is Leonidas. Who led his woefully understrength force into a superior foe and got decapitated for his efforts.

EDIT: Roboute also has a lot of Gaius Marius in him. Especially as it's strongly alluded to that Guilliman didn't even conquer all of Ultramar. The worlds of the two lost brothers and their Legions were abosorbed into Ultramar and the Ultramarines.

comicshorse

2015-08-26, 07:28 AM

Aurelius[/I] in their name?

I agree but I'd actually go for Marcus Aurelius
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Aurelius
Famed war leader and noted for the Tome he wrote on philosophy

Corvus Corax is Spartacus, the Slave who would be King.

The main problem is that Angron is pretty dumb, although it's hard to judge what would have happened if he'd never had the Butcher's Nails. But, let's pretend that Angron should have been as smart his brothers...Spartacus works, I suppose. But Corax fits better.

I'd disagree. Angron works better as Spartacus, he's a Gladiator who leads his fellow Gladiators against their owners and in the end he loses and leads to the slaughter of his followers

Peterabo works as Odysessus but I'm also toying with Napoleon. Master of artillery but looked down on by others for his humble origins

The Lion is Richard the Lionheart. Famed charismatic war leader who spends all his time away at war, neglecting his home land and leading to his brother overthrowing his kingdom while he's away

Mortarion is.......... Marshal Zukov
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgy_Zhukov
Brilliant but brutal tactician who won but always a t a huge cost of lives to his own troops. (It's not brilliant, I know)

Will mull, maybe more later

Cheesegear

2015-08-26, 07:44 AM

If anyone's going to be Marcus Aurelius though, it's Guilliman. I know it. You know it. Everyone knows it. But I assumed that was too on the nose and that's why Wraith chose someone else. Constantine was the first Christian Roman Emperor, and convened the Council of Nicaea which basically founded modern Christianity as we know it - The Nicene Creed. Much like Lorgar's Lectitio Divinatus founded the modern Imperial Creed. In-Universe, Lorgar also needed the Council of Nikea to ban Psykers so that he could plant Chaplains in every Legion and nobody would be allowed to read their mind / sense Chaos.

Mortarion just needs to be a dude who came to power by murdering everyone above him. Ragnar Lodbrock springs to mind again.

I could also say that Corax is Moses. But I think in 40K, Asurmen is Moses already.

The Lion is Richard the Lionheart. Famed charismatic war leader who spends all his time away at war, neglecting his home land and leading to his brother overthrowing his kingdom while he's away

http://i.imgur.com/3V6kSs8.gif

comicshorse

2015-08-26, 08:24 AM

I wonder if Vulkan or Ferrus Manus might fit Tubal Cain

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tubal-cain

Artanis

2015-08-26, 01:42 PM

I think that if we have to choose only one person per Primarch, then Guilliman would be Augustus Caesar.

For starters, I suspect that most will agree that Macragge/Ultramar is basically Space Rome. Building on that, lil' Robbie was adopted by a Consul of Space Rome (just like Octavian was); he fought barbarians in the mountains north of Space Rome City (just like Papa Julius had); he forcibly ended a civil war between Government Big Shots (just like Augustus did twice); then, to top it all off, Roboute VERY quickly turned Space Rome into an autocracy that was the wealthiest, strongest, and shiniest Really Big Deal around (which, you guessed it, is pretty much exactly what Augustus did). And let's not forget how Roboute's adopted father was assassinated in the Main Government Building in an event related to the Big Shot Civil War. Hell, the Lexicanum even says that "Roboute" supposedly translates to "Great One", which is pretty close to what "Augustus" is Latin for.

:smallwink:

Wraith

2015-08-26, 02:48 PM

All great suggestions.
One thing that I have tried to keep in mind is that each time the Emperor assumed a name/face and tried to form a pan-human Empire, he failed at it. Every single time. He has to, otherwise why does he wait until the 31st millenium to become the Emperor and actually take charge in a meaningful way?

As such, I tried to avoid multiple people in the same dynasty/empires. If he founded Rome, and it clearly wasn't working, would he come back a couple of hundred years later as another Roman Emperor and do more of the same as before? Or rather, would he prefer to go all Ras Al'Ghul, let that civilisation die and start again from scratch when his previous failure has completely gone and are no longer there to work against him?
Given that he seems to disappear between the beginning of Old Night at the Unification Wars, one of the greatest examples of the failure of human expansion*, I suspect the latter.

* Come to think of it, that's a story that I want to hear. The Emperor - in whatever guise he's chosen - gets to the 13-18th millenium and once again tries to elevate humanity... and this time, it seems to be working! We're in space! We have colonies! We own the galaxy! Now all we need is a force of soldiers to guarantee the longevity of our existing empire, maybe some sort of intelligent robot would do the trick....

....No, maybe not. Oh, no. OH, NO. That isn't working at all! What are you doing, you guys!? STOP!

...A failure so grand that it causes 12,000 years of self-imposed (presumably?) exile from Humanity. Even with the warp storms cutting off most of the galaxy, He abandons Earth to it's own devices. One wonders if he even had liberty during this period - maybe he was off walking the webway, or trapped on some desolate moon with no way to escape, as the Chaos powers thought they had him trapped forever?

lord_khaine

2015-08-26, 04:01 PM

* Come to think of it, that's a story that I want to hear. The Emperor - in whatever guise he's chosen - gets to the 13-18th millenium and once again tries to elevate humanity... and this time, it seems to be working! We're in space! We have colonies! We own the galaxy! Now all we need is a force of soldiers to guarantee the longevity of our existing empire, maybe some sort of intelligent robot would do the trick....

Actually the Eldar Empire owned the Galaxy during that period, perhaps he did not want to attract to much attention.. :smalltongue:

Still it is a really interesting theory, and a very long stretch of time where the emperor has suposedly been sitting on his thumbs.
He kinda must have been on earth, since it is there he eventually started to create his Thunder Warriors, and began cleaning things up.

comicshorse

2015-08-26, 04:40 PM

We're in space! We have colonies! We own the galaxy! Now all we need is a force of soldiers to guarantee the longevity of our existing empire,

That does seem to be the point where his plans fall apart

Voidhawk

2015-08-27, 01:25 AM

Actually the Eldar Empire owned the Galaxy during that period, perhaps he did not want to attract to much attention.. :smalltongue:

Still it is a really interesting theory, and a very long stretch of time where the emperor has suposedly been sitting on his thumbs.
He kinda must have been on earth, since it is there he eventually started to create his Thunder Warriors, and began cleaning things up.

The timeline is a little confusing on this point, but I believe the standard canon is that the Eldar and Humanity BOTH had galaxy-spanning empires at the same time, and for the most part ignored each other. Humans ignored Eldar because the webway is a strategic and logistical advantage that can't be matched, and Eldar ignored humans because Dark Age tech was terrifyingly effective at blowing things up. An unstoppable force and an immovable object: neither really wanted to test who was stronger. After all the galaxy is a big place, and both sides had terraforming equipment, so there wasn't that much to fight over.

Then the Iron Men rose up and tore down the Human empire, and the warp went from "mostly stable" to "mostly storms" (perhaps due to Slaanesh gestating), cutting off Earth and isolating each part of the human empire. The Long Night began, and the various Xenos races Humanity had allowed to live rose up and feasted on the defenseless human worlds, probably including the now very decadent Eldar empire. At this stage the Emperor was wandering the galaxy (talking to the last surviving Old One among other things), but the sudden warp storms left him cut off from Earth.

Then Slaanesh was born, and the Eldar Empire imploded all at once. The warp calmed alot, and the storms around Earth were dissipated. The Emperor was free to move around once more, and saw exactly how quickly the Xenos had turned on man in our darkest hour, how close we came to extinction, and the birth of the first human psykers (other than navigators). He decided that he couldn't stand on the fringes any longer, and returned to Earth to reunite it and prepare for the founding of the Imperium. Meanwhile the Orks, once driven back to fringe status by the two galactic empires, became the dominant force in the galaxy until the Great Crusade.

And then it's mostly stuff we know alot about: Thunder Warriors, Primarchs Scattered, Great Crusade, Horus Heresy, The Scouring, Second Founding, Age of Imperium, Age of Apostasy, Tau Emergence, Necron Awakening, Tyranid Arrival, Time of Ending.

lord_khaine

2015-08-27, 08:35 AM

The timeline is a little confusing on this point, but I believe the standard canon is that the Eldar and Humanity BOTH had galaxy-spanning empires at the same time, and for the most part ignored each other. Humans ignored Eldar because the webway is a strategic and logistical advantage that can't be matched, and Eldar ignored humans because Dark Age tech was terrifyingly effective at blowing things up. An unstoppable force and an immovable object: neither really wanted to test who was stronger. After all the galaxy is a big place, and both sides had terraforming equipment, so there wasn't that much to fight over.

Really? the information i have says that after they drove the remaining necrons into hiding then the Eldars were the undisputed masters of the galaxy, fully able to use their psychic potential without fear, and possesing weapons potent enough to kill a star.
And it was first after it imploded during the birth of Slanash that the Empire were able to rise to prominence.

Wraith

2015-08-27, 09:45 AM

I was given to believe that the warp storms which were responsible for keeping humanity at bay, were the turmoil caused by Slaanesh's pre-birth 'contractions'.

When the God of Pleasure was born, the Eye of Terror opened and the disruption in the warp was cleared, like the breaking of a storm clearing heavy, oppressive weather front that came before it. The death of the Eldar empire was the dawn of humanity's rise.

Cheesegear

2015-08-27, 06:48 PM

The death of the Eldar empire was the dawn of humanity's rise.

The Age of Strife halts humanity's rise. Humanity's rise begins again with the birth of Slaanesh. The Age of Strife ends with the birth of Slaanesh. Well, it officially ends when The Emperor wins the Unification Wars around M30, but, coincidentally, the Warp Storms and the Unification Wars pretty much end at the exact same time...Somehow. But, Humans had populated the Galaxy long before.

Humans were a Galaxy-spanning race before the Emperor started his Great Crusade (the Great Crusade always comes across planets already populated with humans...). Those same Warp Storms (with the help of Argel Tal), stole the Primarchs, and the Primarchs all landed on planets populated by humans (why didn't the Chaos Gods dump them on planets with horrible alien gribblies designed to eat babies?). Given the 40K star map, humans were EVERYWHERE. The Golden Age of Expansion (Dark Age of Technology) begins with the invention of the Warp Drive and Gellar Fields in M18, and the Dark Age of Technology ends in ~M25, beginning the Age of Strife, when Mankind loses Warp Drives and Gellar Fields, or the birth of Slaanesh makes Warp Travel undoable for the forseeable future.

Point is, Mankind began travelling the stars - for real - around M18. Given how the Primarchs grew up, humans have stayed a Galaxy-spanning race ever since. Spread of Humanity began around M18. Fall of the Eldar happened around M30. My math says there's around 12 thousand years difference. It's just that there was a 5 thousand year bump in the middle where humans had to stop.

I still want a book about Saul Tarvitz fighting in the Unification Wars.

DataNinja

2015-08-28, 02:18 AM

Really? the information i have says that after they drove the remaining necrons into hiding then the Eldars were the undisputed masters of the galaxy, fully able to use their psychic potential without fear, and possesing weapons potent enough to kill a star.
And it was first after it imploded during the birth of Slanash that the Empire were able to rise to prominence.

This is GW screwing around with the timeline.

First it was all "Oh, the Eldar fell waaaaaaaay before mankind arose from the seas yadda yadda something like that."

Now it's "Oh yeah, we fought the Necrons, [no fluff], empire which fell at the 31st mellenium, and now we can't win a battle to save our souls..."

In case you can't tell, I'm fairly perturbed... :smalltongue:

Cheesegear

2015-08-28, 03:44 AM

Now it's "Oh yeah, we fought the Necrons, [no fluff], empire which fell at the 31st mellenium, and now we can't win a battle to save our souls..."

Eldar were demolished by Slaanesh. Slaanesh is literally the worst thing that has ever happened to the Eldar, ever. Yes, I am including the war with the C'Tan as 'not as bad'.

Right off the bat, Slaanesh kills three Eldar Gods without breaking a sweat. Then, the Eldar's War God barely manages to scratch her, in turn, in her 'weakened' state, Slaanesh only manages to obliterate Khaine into many, many pieces. Then Nurgle shows up, and 'rescues' Isha from Slaanesh's rampage. Only Cegorach managed to escape, and is either somewhere, or also The Deceiver. Although with the retconning of how C'Tan work, the latter is unlikely. Kurnous is supposedly around, but he's not been mentioned at all since 4th Ed., and I don't even know if he's real canon or not.

Eldrad is apparently banking on a solution where if every single Eldar dies, a new God might reemerge and smack down Slaanesh, and then do...Something afterwards.
The Phoenix Lords (i.e; Asurmen) are more proactive than that, but there are only 10 of them in the whole Galaxy, and they're pretty much terrified of the Warp 'cause it's the only place where they can actually die, so none of them can actually proactively go after Slaanesh either, just kind of wait around until something bad happens and save the day, and kind of are also banking on this thing called the Rhana Dandra.

What do you think Eldar are supposed to be doing?

Supposedly something amazing will happen when Isha is rescued and the Eldar finally get a God in their corner - that isn't Cegorach, who seems to be helping out the Orks instead. If Cegorach is The Deceiver, then he's also backing Cypher as well. But, in either case, Cegorach's plans don't appear to involve Eldar, because no, the Eldar can't save themselves.

EDIT:
Shameless self-plug of the Rhana Dandra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18370512&postcount=618) and Phoenix Rises (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18370668&postcount=621)

Drasius

2015-08-28, 04:52 AM

The current up-and-comer at Black Library, is John French, who has come over from Fantasy Flight Games after having a hand in the Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch RPGs. Keep an eye on him. Coincidentally, French also wrote Crimson Fist and Templar for the Heresy.

I have only been more and more impressed with John French's work, novel, short story and audio drama. I can't wait for the 3rd Ahriman book, Unchanged.

Whereas if I look at McNeill's Ultramarines, I'm like..."Hnng...It gets better.", but, the same year as Nightbringer, McNeill also wrote Storm of Iron. So, of course nobody paid attention to 'Iron, because Nightbringer was pretty bad. Just like nobody pays attention to anything that Nick Kyme writes, because the first Salamanders novel was just awful.

I also don't think Abnett's First and Only is any good, and the Ghosts don't get good until Necropolis. But that may be just me, and I'm predisposed to hating the Ghosts because they don't make any sense in the 40K-verse. I'm sure there's somebody who is...Less biased than I am to evaluate the Ghosts for what they are, rather than how much they don't make sense at all.

To be fair, Ultra was not terrible for it's time, Storm of Iron is pretty rad and anything Nick Kyme writes deserves to be ignored because everything he writes is terrible.

As someone who only read first and only well after being introduced to 40k, I still really like it, it would probably rank among my favourite books in the 40k setting, possibly because of the nature of the guard being normal people and marines being rare. Further disclosure, I haven't read any of the other Gaunts ghosts books simply because I refuse to read ebooks and they haven't re-released them in paperback where I can get them.

Been thinking lately about the various natures attributed to the Primarchs, and what they might mean in the 'bigger picture' of literature. Be interesting to see if any Playgrounders have an opinion on it.

Rowboat could also be Cyrus the Great, who conquered an area of land much greater than Alexander, welcomed assimilated empires into his fold, is credited with the first public declaration of human rights and respected the customs of the lands he conquered, much the same as the boat was so taken with the method of compliance achieved by certain remembrances when inserted into cultures pre-visits by the astartes to ensure a smooth transition. He is also renowned for establishing a central government and having it generally work for the people in much the same way the beurocracy of ultramar is generally a for-the-people thing, with similarities in the vassal-king status to the ultramarines capatins claiming rulership-in-abstentia for the greater region of Ultramar. He was renowed for his ability as both warrior and statesman and his political skills ensured his empire endured long after his death.

Actually the Eldar Empire owned the Galaxy during that period, perhaps he did not want to attract to much attention.. :smalltongue:

Still it is a really interesting theory, and a very long stretch of time where the emperor has suposedly been sitting on his thumbs.
He kinda must have been on earth, since it is there he eventually started to create his Thunder Warriors, and began cleaning things up.

In Vengeful Spirit, Horus takes his legion, Mortarion and the Death Guard on a scooby doo hunt for where the Emperor stole chaos' power. He jumps into a portal and goes on a 1000 year journey that only lasts 5 minutes. Given special chaos time, it could be that Big E went on a 5 minute journey that lasted 13,000 years.

Eldar were demolished by Slaanesh. Slaanesh is literally the worst thing that has ever happened to the Eldar, ever. Yes, I am including the war with the C'Tan as 'not as bad'.

Right off the bat, Slaanesh kills three Eldar Gods without breaking a sweat. Then, the Eldar's War God barely manages to scratch her, in turn, in her 'weakened' state, Slaanesh only manages to obliterate Khaine into many, many pieces. Then Nurgle shows up, and 'rescues' Isha from Slaanesh's rampage. Only Cegorach managed to escape, and is either somewhere, or also The Deceiver. Although with the retconning of how C'Tan work, the latter is unlikely. Kurnous is supposedly around, but he's not been mentioned at all since 4th Ed., and I don't even know if he's real canon or not.

...

Supposedly something amazing will happen when Isha is rescued and the Eldar finally get a God in their corner - that isn't Cegorach, who seems to be helping out the Orks instead. If Cegorach is The Deceiver, then he's also backing Cypher as well. But, in either case, Cegorach's plans don't appear to involve Eldar, because no, the Eldar can't save themselves.

Hints in the Harlequins codex suggests this is linked to Ahriman finally getting into the black library and somewho giving Slaneesh a celestial uppercut that weakens ... it... enough for some sort of retribution. Given that the first 2 books of the Ahriman trilogy are basically extended versions of the first 2 (of 3) paragraphs in his chaos codex entry, I'll let you guess why I'm excited for the 3rd one.

Edit; Oh, and also, the Master of the Hunt Audio drama about the khan vs doomrider is pretty good. A thoroughly dispointing ending, but other than that, it's pretty solid. Doomrider has a very fitting voice while the white scars are still sporting the horribly mashed up russian/japanese accent that they've been stuck with for a while.

Wraith

2015-08-28, 05:19 AM

The Age of Strife halts humanity's rise. Humanity's rise begins again with the birth of Slaanesh. The Age of Strife ends with the birth of Slaanesh. Well, it officially ends when The Emperor wins the Unification Wars around M30, but, coincidentally, the Warp Storms and the Unification Wars pretty much end at the exact same time...Somehow. But, Humans had populated the Galaxy long before.

Derp, my mistake. I meant humanity's rise, as in, the Crusade. Not the first golden age. Thank you.

EDIT: Shameless self-plug of the Rhana Dandra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18370512&postcount=618) and Phoenix Rises (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18370668&postcount=621)

I remember that, and I enjoyed it. The only thing that bothers me is that in at least four of the five Eldar Codices that I own (not entirely sure about the most recent one, I haven't read the fluff cover to cover) the story has always been that Fuegan is the one to call the other Phoenix Lords together (old prophecy, etc etc), so it ought to have been him that went to go find Drahzar.

Edit; Oh, and also, the Master of the Hunt Audio drama about the khan vs doomrider is pretty good. A thoroughly dispointing ending, but other than that, it's pretty solid. Doomrider has a very fitting voice while the white scars are still sporting the horribly mashed up russian/japanese accent that they've been stuck with for a while.

"Disappointing"? What awful novel where you listening to? :smallwink::smalltongue:
In the one I heard, Doomrider kicks Korsarro Khan off a 10 mile high skyroad and then rides his daemonic firebike made of mangled flesh and screaming iron after him into a warp fissure, but then the Khan deliberately hits terminal velocity, cannons into Doomrider, rips it's head off with his bare hands and then surfs the canopy of a Stormtalon gunship back to safety while the head in his hand still gibbers and bites at him. It's the single most metal thing ever written, and I'll fight anyone who disagrees with me. :smallwink:

Eldan

2015-08-28, 08:13 AM

Supposedly something amazing will happen when Isha is rescued and the Eldar finally get a God in their corner - that isn't Cegorach, who seems to be helping out the Orks instead. If Cegorach is The Deceiver, then he's also backing Cypher as well. But, in either case, Cegorach's plans don't appear to involve Eldar, because no, the Eldar can't save themselves.

Cegorach and Orks? :smallconfused:

Cegorach is quite helpful to his chosen. They get a lot of secret chaos lore and knowledge of the webway and he protects their souls even without soulstones.

Cheesegear

2015-08-28, 09:01 AM

To be fair, Ultra was not terrible for it's time, Storm of Iron is pretty rad and anything Nick Kyme writes deserves to be ignored because everything he writes is terrible.

Storm of Iron is rad, and Honsou is one of the most well-realised characters in 40K's canon. It's just that at the time, he was written by 'that guy who wrote the Ultramarines book', and people don't like Ultramarines.

Not everything Kyme writes is bad. His Damnos stories were fine (showing that yes, Sicarius can fail and it nearly kills him, both physically and emotionally), Vulkan Lives was neat, and I really liked Censure - but that's 'cause I like Aeonid Thiel.

Edit; Oh, and also, the Master of the Hunt Audio drama [...] A thoroughly dispointing ending

I'll echo Wraith; lolwat :smallconfused:

I remember that, and I enjoyed it. The only thing that bothers me is that in at least four of the five Eldar Codices that I own (not entirely sure about the most recent one, I haven't read the fluff cover to cover) the story has always been that Fuegan is the one to call the other Phoenix Lords together (old prophecy, etc etc), so it ought to have been him that went to go find Drahzar.

You and I think a lot alike, it's happened before. :smallamused: The reason Fuegan doesn't stroll into Comorragh without a care in the world and right up to the Incubi Shrine, is that I don't think the Dark Eldar would actually let him, whereas sneaking into places that she doesn't belong is kind of Irillyth's schtick. But, I do know that Fuegan is 'The Herald', that's why the whole idea is his in the first place.

I also realise that there needs to be a conversation between Cypher and Asurmen. Where Cypher chews out the Eldar, for all his talk of 'Fate' and 'Destiny', Mankind still rules the stars (mostly, not including Tyranid threats), and Eldar are a dying race. Asurmen is literally 'The Hand of Asur' (totally not Moses, honest), Asurmen is the manifestation of the Eldar Gods' Will. Well guess what? Asur's dead. So either Asurmen goes out like a wuss, whining about the Eldar Doom, or Asurmen walks right up to Slaanesh and defies his Fate and pokes her in the eye.

So when Zarakynel goes to crush Asurmen in her claws/tentacles, Asurmen recalls the words of Sarah Connor Cypher, and screams "NO FATE!", goes Super Saiyan and jams his Diresword in the Daemon Princess' face, defeating Slaanesh's Champion.

Cegorach and Orks? :smallconfused:

Eldar and Orks were both created by the Old Ones; Therefore, Eldar and Orks have the same Gods; Therefore, Khaine is Gork and Cegorach is Mork, the two surviving 'Old Ones' that survived the birth of Slaanesh - not including Isha. There are two Eldar Gods who are actually still relevant, there are two Ork Gods. Coincidence?
Xenology, an OOP book from long, long ago, basically says as much, and it does make sense.

Eldar are a race in decline. Horus gave his 'Mission Accomplished!' speech at Ullanor, and yet Orks are still rampant and not eradicated at all. Seems like the 'Old Ones' are focusing on one creation and not the other. Sure, the Eldar have some benefits, but Cegorach is clearly showing favouritism.

Drasius

2015-08-28, 09:08 AM

"Disappointing"? What awful novel where you listening to? :smallwink::smalltongue:
In the one I heard, Doomrider kicks Korsarro Khan off a 10 mile high skyroad and then rides his daemonic firebike made of mangled flesh and screaming iron after him into a warp fissure, but then the Khan deliberately hits terminal velocity, cannons into Doomrider, rips it's head off with his bare hands and then surfs the canopy of a Stormtalon gunship back to safety while the head in his hand still gibbers and bites at him. It's the single most metal thing ever written, and I'll fight anyone who disagrees with me. :smallwink:

The bit where Doomrider gets his head ripped off, I would have much prefered him to escape the khan. As for the most metal thing ever, did you even listen to the bit where he hands out a beating to 2 HQ characters with a chain, summons his bike out of random metal and people, runs the khan over and then wheelies his way out of an armoured transport from the inside and then ramps off a chimera to decapitate a stormtalon pilot?

Besides, listen to it again, the marine player was cheating. Those skyhammer missiles were twin linked somehow and Korsarro clearly takes 3 wounds before he gets thrown off that cliff.:smallbiggrin:

I especially liked the bit where the librarian zaps Doomrider down the chain he was getting beat to death with though, that was cool.

Wraith

2015-08-28, 09:20 AM

The bit where Doomrider gets his head ripped off, I would have much prefered him to escape the khan.

It kind of had to go that way, because the point of the story is to explain why Doomrider isn't in the Codex any more.
I wish they did that sort of thing more often, to be honest, it adds a lot more to the mythology of the game to see old heroes actually die rather than just disappear than just as a small story in and of itself.

You and I think a lot alike, it's happened before. :smallamused: The reason Fuegan doesn't stroll into Comorragh without a care in the world and right up to the Incubi Shrine, is that I don't think the Dark Eldar would actually let him, whereas sneaking into places that she doesn't belong is kind of Irillyth's schtick. But, I do know that Fuegan is 'The Herald', that's why the whole idea is his in the first place.

I don't see that as having anything to do with what Fuegan wants. :smalltongue:

I imagine it more as Irillyth infiltrating Comorragh, sneaking past patrols, Solid-Snake-Neck-Snapping Wyches and Sam-Fisher-Hiding-Above-Doorways her way into the throne room of some Incubi.

Just as she steps over the threshold, turns out, it's a trap! The floodlights hit, and she's surrounded by dozens upon dozens of Sslyths and Warriors and the likes as her 'quarry' smirks at her from a throne, flanked by two huge Abominations.
"Said the spider to the fly...." says the Incubi.
"I'm not locked in here with you, you're locked in here with me." says Irillyth, and drops a little Wraithbone charm on the floor. Which explodes in a boom-tube and Fuegan steps through like the T-1000 appearing in a parking lot. Everyone in the room loses their ****, Fuegan punches his axe through both Abominations in one strike and clears the room, ending with his hand around the Incubi's throat.
"Achilles! Drahzar!" chokes the Incubi, and the Fallen Scorpion steps out of a shadow, and it looks like it's all about to go down.
"About time you showed up. It's time to go." Says Fuegan, before turning to the Incubi. "Remember that I said I'd kill you last?" *necksnap* "I lied."

:smalltongue:

lord_khaine

2015-08-28, 11:48 AM

Eldrad is apparently banking on a solution where if every single Eldar dies, a new God might reemerge and smack down Slaanesh, and then do...Something afterwards.
The Phoenix Lords (i.e; Asurmen) are more proactive than that, but there are only 10 of them in the whole Galaxy, and they're pretty much terrified of the Warp 'cause it's the only place where they can actually die, so none of them can actually proactively go after Slaanesh either, just kind of wait around until something bad happens and save the day, and kind of are also banking on this thing called the Rhana Dandra.

The Phoenix Lords might be terrified of the warp, but at the same time they are still immortal badasses, Maugan Ra personally wandered into the eye of terror, with a trail of soulfire leading directly to where he were going, as he resqued his lost craftworld.

Shameless self-plug of the Rhana Dandra and Phoenix Rises

It is a pretty rad story, one i would easily have paid to watch animated in the style of perhaps Hellsing.

LeSwordfish

2015-08-28, 01:50 PM

Returning to First And Only - I think it's the weakest of the Ghost novels by a long way. For me, part of the charm of the ghosts is that the scale is reduced with the characters, and the battles are only rarely "galactic-scale" importance. Essentially, if you have to use vermillion-clearance and galactic importance and STC's and "the whole universe is about to change" to make me care about events, you're a worse writer than someone who can make me care the same amount about, say, one inconsequential part of one front of the war. It's one of the things I dislike about Eisenhorn - about seven-eights of the way through the final book, Abnett remembers this is 40K and shoehorns an epic space demon king army in to raise the stakes.

Cheesegear

2015-08-28, 08:08 PM

"I'm not locked in here with you, you're locked in here with me." says Irillyth, and drops a little Wraithbone charm on the floor. Which explodes in a boom-tube and Fuegan steps through like the T-1000 appearing in a parking lot. Everyone in the room loses their ****, Fuegan punches his axe through both Abominations in one strike and clears the room, ending with his hand around the Incubi's throat.
"Achilles! Drahzar!" chokes the Incubi, and the Fallen Scorpion steps out of a shadow, and it looks like it's all about to go down.
"About time you showed up. It's time to go." Says Fuegan, before turning to the Incubi. "Remember that I said I'd kill you last?" *necksnap* "I lied."

Fuegan is voiced by Michael Ironside (you brought up Sam Fisher...), and Baharroth is Sean Bean - obviously. They're locked in armour, you never see their faces anyway, you'll only ever hear their voice. Also, because they always wear helmets (heroes wear helmets), I don't have to hamfist in a scene where Asurmen and Jain Zar kiss. 'Cause that would be stupid.

However, I can say that being locked in their respective armours means that they've lived the last 10 thousand years without ever actually touching each other. Because TRAGEDY and SPACE OPERA!

The Phoenix Lords might be terrified of the warp, but at the same time they are still immortal badasses, Maugan Ra personally wandered into the eye of terror, with a trail of soulfire leading directly to where he were going, as he resqued his lost craftworld.

I'm going off the assumption that Phoenix Lords avoid the Warp same as all other Eldar do, if they die in the Warp, they don't get to pass Go! and head straight to Slaanesh. That's why when Baharroth dies, he gets raised as a half-Daemon monstrosity. So, yeah, I'm not saying that Phoenix Lords stop being immortal (they get proved wrong by Baharroth), I'm saying that dying inside the Warp isn't anything that they want to happen. In fact, what happens to Baharroth is considered worse than death.

The Phoenix Lords don't hang around together very often, if they die and their armour gets captured, one of the other Phoenix Lords has to go get it. But, all Phoenix Lords must be present or the Rhana Dandra doesn't happen - hence the need to get Drazhar and find Drastanta. The whole idea is that with all the Phoenix Lords in one place, and with the assumption that Phoenix Lords can die (or something equally as bad like being Corrupted by She-Who-Thirsts) inside the Warp, the whole point of the Rhana Dandra is that it's for all the marbles, and stakes need to be high.
Maugan Ra is just reckless. One of them has to be. It's an ensemble piece (and a space opera). ALL the Tropes!

If we assume that the Warp can't kill Phoenix Lords, then there's no stakes - and what's the point?

Voidhawk

2015-08-29, 06:18 AM

Only Cegorach managed to escape, and is either somewhere, or also The Deceiver. Although with the retconning of how C'Tan work, the latter is unlikely. Kurnous is supposedly around, but he's not been mentioned at all since 4th Ed., and I don't even know if he's real canon or not.

Cegorach isn't the Deciever, nor is he an Old One, but he was made in their image.

The "War in Heaven" is called such because actual Gods are fighting: the C'Tan are murdering everything, and the Old Ones are trying to stop them. Ironically, the first thing that happens is that the population of the Galaxy goes into a sudden spiral UP, as the Old Ones are forced to churn out footsoldiers to fight the C'Tan and Necrons. Then as said footsoldiers die the Warp gets flooded with souls and thoughts, and generally becomes a really **** place.

The souls then start comglomerating together to form Warp Gods: the pattern these Gods take is shaped by the beliefs of the lesser races, and what they see of the War in Heaven. The actions taken by The Deciever and sneaky Old Ones create an echo named Cegorach for the Eldar, and a separate/related echo called Mork for the Kork. Khaine and Gork are also related in this way, and the Eldar ended up with many gods in the image of various Old Ones who were in charge of the War. The Kork only made two gods because they were constantly on the frontlines, and only really saw War and Cunning as worth anything: those gods were more generally powerful because they got all the Kork souls and didn't have to share.

So yeah. Cegorach is the warp's mirror image of the Deciever.

Blackhawk748

2015-08-29, 07:56 PM

Cheesegear

2015-08-29, 08:16 PM

Also since Doomrider is a Daemon Prince he cant actually die, so what did they do? Lock him in a box?

Khan rips off his jaw and pulls out his tongue so he can't talk. Still, as a Mark, the Master of the Hunt is required to bring back the head of his prey. Doomrider's head poses a slight problem, but, a head is a head, and into the trophy room it goes.

Since Doomrider's eyes (and brain) presumably still work, I can imagine that this is pretty much torture for him.

Blackhawk748

2015-08-29, 08:24 PM

Khan rips off his jaw and pulls out his tongue so he can't talk. Still, as a Mark, the Master of the Hunt is required to bring back the head of his prey. Doomrider's head poses a slight problem, but, a head is a head, and into the trophy room it goes.

Since Doomrider's eyes (and brain) presumably still work, I can imagine that this is pretty much torture for him.

Oh so hes mounted on a wall. That should probably work.

I think the real torture for him is boredom :smallwink:

Cheesegear

2015-08-30, 02:42 AM

Speaking of Master of the Hunt, Toby Longworth is pretty much the best. For a while I had actually thought he disappeared, but it's just that BL is releasing more and more audio books/dramas without Toby Longworth, and I realise that this must be how people feel when they say that they read nothing but Abnett and/or ADB. :smallsigh:

EDIT: Turns out I was right and he did disappear for most of 2012 and 2013, but that was two years ago. Time flies, I suppose.

lord_khaine

2015-08-30, 04:37 AM

I'm going off the assumption that Phoenix Lords avoid the Warp same as all other Eldar do, if they die in the Warp, they don't get to pass Go! and head straight to Slaanesh. That's why when Baharroth dies, he gets raised as a half-Daemon monstrosity. So, yeah, I'm not saying that Phoenix Lords stop being immortal (they get proved wrong by Baharroth), I'm saying that dying inside the Warp isn't anything that they want to happen. In fact, what happens to Baharroth is considered worse than death.

Its a subject we dont have to much information about, but my personal understanding have always been that an Eldar soul is safe as long as its in its more or less indestructeble soulstone.
And that its something that applies even when the soulstone is residing in the warp.

Consequensially then to slay a Phoenix Lord you need to destroy every single soulstone in the armor, by feeding them to a greater deamon or something of simular power.

Of course, it has also been my personal headcanon that the Phoenix Lords are the last remaining manifestation of Azur, the Eldars chief deity.

Cheesegear

2015-08-30, 05:04 AM

Of course, it has also been my personal headcanon that the Phoenix Lords are the last remaining manifestation of Azur, the Eldars chief deity.

I've also got a headcanon that Ahra burned down the Shrine of Asur 'cause he was convinced that there were no Gods left, and everything that Asurmen does is pointless (Ahra succumbs to the Eldar Doom). Which is then later refuted by Cypher, who says that because Asur is dead, everything that Asurmen does, matters. Cypher clearly referencing his own relationship between himself and The Emperor.

Fuegan calls the Phoneix Lords all the time (Court of the Young King is a thing), but Drazhar never shows up. Fuegan always puts out the call, except he's always wrong. It's never the Rhana Dandra when he says it is so why bother showing up - Drazhar isn't part of the Court.
Except this time, they go to rescue Isha. Rescuing a God is literally the only thing that could bring Drazhar back to the fold, because only a God can forgive Drazhar for burning down the Shrine.

Eldan

2015-08-30, 09:38 AM

I'm not so sure about them being manifestations of Azur. After all, they are paragons of aspect paths, and the aspect warriors are aspects of Khaine.

This makes me wonder, though. If the soulstones were vacated, could a daemon possess the armour of a phoenix king...

thethird

2015-08-30, 10:20 AM

I've also got a headcanon that Ahra burned down the Shrine of Asur 'cause he was convinced that there were no Gods left, and everything that Asurmen does is pointless (Ahra succumbs to the Eldar Doom). Which is then later refuted by Cypher, who says that because Asur is dead, everything that Asurmen does, matters. Cypher clearly referencing his own relationship between himself and The Emperor.

Fuegan calls the Phoneix Lords all the time (Court of the Young King is a thing), but Drazhar never shows up. Fuegan always puts out the call, except he's always wrong. It's never the Rhana Dandra when he says it is so why bother showing up - Drazhar isn't part of the Court.
Except this time, they go to rescue Isha. Rescuing a God is literally the only thing that could bring Drazhar back to the fold, because only a God can forgive Drazhar for burning down the Shrine.

Mh... that sounds like something interesting to read, when does Cypher say that? :smallsmile: I would like to get something to read :smalltongue: and both Cypher and Eldar are pretty cool.

Blackhawk748

2015-08-30, 10:24 AM

Warning: This has nothing to do with the current conversation.

While doing research on Mutants and Abhumans for a Dark Heresy game, i discovered that the Imperium has 15 accepted Abhuman strains, Beastmen being one of them. Now i know Beastmen auxiliaries used to be a thing, but then they didnt mention them (or squats) for like 3 editions. Then the 6th ed Rulebook comes out and has this list of Abhumans, which has both Squats and Beastmen on it. So is the Imperium accepting Beastmen again? Well at least as much as they did before?

The reason i want to know this is because i want my Sister's of Battle Order to field Beastmen as Zealot Auxiliaries, and im curious how Heretical this is. I already know that this is well off the beatne track for how Sister's usually act, but this Order tries to redeem as many as possible, and since the Beastmen aren't worshiping Chaos they can be "saved". IE Die gloriously for the Emperor, like the used to in Rogue Trader.

So on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being only Monodominat Inquisitors care and 10 being Exterminatus on sight just how heretical is this?

Wraith

2015-08-30, 11:34 AM

Blackhawk748

2015-08-30, 11:47 AM

Sisters of Battle are, in pretty much every way, Monodominant in their mindset. They won't tolerate Sanctioned Psykers in their midst, let alone anything more radical. So them having their OWN Abhuman militia is a solid 8 or 9 I would say - they much prefer to invoke the Fraeteris Militaria, which are human civilians riled up into a righteous mob of hatred.

Abhuman Auxillaries are attached to the Imperial Guard, however, and Sisters will work with the Guard when they're told to. Having an Imperial Guard command squad (LOTS of Commissars would be very fluffy) leading the Abhumans, flavoured to be their 'keepers' like some kind of Penal Legion gaolers, with the story being that the Sisters NEVER have to interact with the Abhumans, would be more likely. The important thing is the humans being in charge to keep the two sides apart.

And even then, the Sisters Repentia might not care when it actually came to battle....

That high, i shouldnt be surprised. Rules wise that was probably what i was gonna do, except i was gonna use Priests instead of Commissars as the Beastmen love the Emperor. I feel this quote sums up what i was going for:

"Beastman bad. Bad Beastman. Dirty. Emperor no like. Beastman love Emperor. Give blood to Emperor. Give heads to Emperor. Say sorry." Packmaster Grasht, attached to 7 Company, Gratanor 14th Regiment

And ya this Order wasnt supposed to be normal. They are out in the middle of nowhere and dont exactly have the best relationship with the Ecclesiarcy. (which is weird i know) So i figured that their mindset on Abhumans is what did it. Instead of just purge hem outright they want to try to "redeem them from their sins". It helps that this Order is partially descended from the Argent Shroud, who are actually pretty nice. Well as nice as the Imperium gets.

Artanis

2015-08-30, 12:13 PM

Sisters of Battle are, in pretty much every way, Monodominant in their mindset. They won't tolerate Sanctioned Psykers in their midst, let alone anything more radical. So them having their OWN Abhuman militia is a solid 8 or 9 I would say - they much prefer to invoke the Fraeteris Militaria, which are human civilians riled up into a righteous mob of hatred.

Abhuman Auxillaries are attached to the Imperial Guard, however, and Sisters will work with the Guard when they're told to. Having an Imperial Guard command squad (LOTS of Commissars would be very fluffy) leading the Abhumans, flavoured to be their 'keepers' like some kind of Penal Legion gaolers, with the story being that the Sisters NEVER have to interact with the Abhumans, would be more likely. The important thing is the humans being in charge to keep the two sides apart.

And even then, the Sisters Repentia might not care when it actually came to battle....

I imagine there might be a few "friendly fire" incidents as well.

A.M. Officer: "Did...did those Sororitas just torch the 31,454th Goat Platoon?"
Canoness: "They got in the way of our Purge of this system's Heresy."
A.M. Officer: "But they were in the complete opposite direction from the enemy."
Canoness: :smallannoyed:
A.M. Officer: :smalleek: "...which is a credit to those Sororitas' skills, since only the most formidable warriors would be able to switch so quickly between targets so deserving of His wrath? Pleasedontburnmetodeath."
Canoness: *points two fingers at eyes, then points them at the officer*

Wraith

2015-08-30, 12:30 PM

comicshorse

2015-08-30, 12:57 PM

Why waste bullets purging the Beastmen when you can get the enemy to waste bullets doing it ?

Platinius

2015-08-30, 04:45 PM

Pretty much. After all, the Ecclesiarchy isn't allowed men under arms, so by definition the Sisters of Battle are NOT a military force. They're a volunteer militia, and as such the Imperial Guard has no direct authority over them.

(I know this isn't how it works in the real world, but 40k can't see that far even on a clear day... :smalltongue: )

Honestly, that is a very weak excuse even by 40k standards particularly since that is not necessarily true in every language (like the classic example "To serve man" only really somewhat works in English and even then it is like going out of your way to making something ambiguous what really shouldn't be and why is only the title translated anyway?) and English is not Gothic (High or any other), the lore is pretty clear on that one.
If the edict had said "no standing troops" then the ecclesial troops would be of both genders and sitting, lying, crawling, walking, running, shooting or use other weapons but never standing (still).
If the edict had said no soldiers (gender neutral), they would have claimed that they are police forces like the Judges of 2000AD Adeptus Arbites who definitely function in a paramilitary fashion (they even have Rinos, carapace armour as standard equipment and all kinds of neat military gear that most guardsmen would drool over). A little side-note, NATO members send members of their police to help in occupied territories (like in Kosovo where I did my tour)
What I find really strange is, the Imperium can be/is very draconian when it comes to its laws and edicts and to allow it the way it has happened seems... very out of character. I mean the imperial authorities really hate being bulls****ed like that.
I love the varies Adepti Sororitas. A smarter explanation, would be that the SoB are purgation specialists (which is true given their love of flamers), all kinds of purgation, they could be a branch of heavily armoured troops (also true given their love of power armour). Also, faith in Big E is encouraged (be it through the Imperial Truth or the Lectitio Divinitatus), so a hefty amount of zeal is not only tolerated, but commended. And why are they all women (other than 'nuns with guns' :smallwink:)? Well, they wear comparatively simple power armour which is in practice more like a very small mech and the actual physical strength of the user is negligible and might even be a hindrance as they lack the technologies necessary to really mash so well with the armour like the SM and the on average stronger men are much more likely to break the relatively sensitive electronics/controls of said very small mech. It also just occurred to me that such a suit is easier to build for women than men, simply because men have genitals dangling between their legs that need extra space, in a rather tight spot on the armour where lots of servos and stuff are installed, as opposed to the chest part, which is easy to make larger in some spots without sacrificing logistical efficiency or combat effectiveness. Women are also smaller and therefore make smaller targets (which is very, very good, given the nasty things the 40k universe throws at humanity and everybody else for that matter) and can access smaller tunnels and corridors and stuff without having to give up the protection of said armour as opposed to power armoured men (and I mean the unaugmented). All of that makes females in power armour more combat effective and given the fact that a smaller person needs less material for the same amount of protection, makes them more efficient, alternatively the extra material can go into extra plating which further increases combat effectiveness.
And if you start arguing periods, well, the modern pill allows women to not have periods at all if they so desire. (I talked to ladies about lady problems, so no, I am not afraid of the gritty disgusting little details of the human body and being genuinely interested in a woman's opinions/problems is a great way to get very personal with her in a very positive manner)

To summarize, nuns with guns (and flamers, and power armour, and tanks, and artillery, and aircraft, and... ) all the way:smallcool:

Got longer than I initially thought :smalleek:

EDIT: It just occurred to me, if I ever get to write a science fiction novel, these are the reasons I will give why all the power armoured soldiers are sexy women :smallbiggrin::smallredface:

Artanis

2015-08-30, 04:51 PM

Y'know, for somebody who stresses that "they aren't really speaking English" as much as GW does, they put an awful lot of effort into providing evidence to the contrary.

Platinius

2015-08-30, 04:54 PM

Y'know, for somebody who stresses that "they aren't really speaking English" as much as GW does, they put an awful lot of effort into providing evidence to the contrary.

Warhammer 40k lore would not be Warhammer 40k lore without its little (or larger) contradictions :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Unrelated, but All Hail the Man-Emperor of Mankind (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq-6aj9sNvo) I would also humbly suggest that as the title to the next thread. Also, I feel sorry for Isha.

Blackhawk748

2015-08-30, 06:48 PM

Lots of Interesting concepts

Ive actually read that the reason the Ecclesiarchy got the free pass was because the Ordo Hereticus made a deal with the Sisters, making them their Chamber Militant. (i wanna say the Witch Hunters Codex) So when everyone got all uppity about it the Inquisition went "Meh. It does say Men. We'll give them a pass" and then everyone shut up about it.

I think ill still go through with it, it just means the Ecclesiarchy REALLY isnt happy with them. Which fits.

As an FYI i used 1d4 chans Order creation table for this, so this is why its a bit weird, as i needed a reason for why they were on bad terms with their church.

FYI this is direct copy-pasta of my rolls

Sisters of the Remoresless Dawn, Ordo Militant
Formed From:Argent Shroud and Sacred Rose
Purpose:Strategic Prognastication, They were made to safeguard several frontier worlds
Bad Ecclesiarch Relations: Tries to "redeem" mutants instead of slay them on sight
Demenour:Uphold the Honor of the Emperor
Figure of Legend:Celestian Commander

Deeds of legend:The saint led the Order in many glorious campaigns, slaying hundreds of the enemy’s greatest champions. In the end, they were brought down by treachery within the fold of the Imperium, slain by an assassin’s turbo-penetrator round on the field of battle. Just why they were targeted was never discovered, and the Order harbours doubts of the loyalty of the servants of the Officio Assassinorum to this day.

Homeworld: Fleet Based (they have several bases on various planets)
Order Orginization: Radically Different
Combat Doctrine: Lighting Strike
Order Divergence: Personal Charm (a Survival Knife)
Method of Worship: The Emperor above all!
Order Size: Nominal
Orders Allies: Astra Telepathica
Order's Enemies: Necrons (i picked this one instead of rolling, the Order was made up of some of the survivors of Shrine 101)

Edit:
EDIT: Unrelated, but All Hail the Man-Emperor of Mankind (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pq-6aj9sNvo) I would also humbly suggest that as the title to the next thread. Also, I feel sorry for Isha.

Bestest video ever

Cheesegear

2015-08-30, 07:58 PM

Y'know, for somebody who stresses that "they aren't really speaking English" as much as GW does

When? Where?
What I've read is that Low Gothic is pretty much English, while High Gothic is Latin, and the Galactic standard is Low Gothic.

Grim Portent

2015-08-30, 08:26 PM

When? Where?
What I've read is that Low Gothic is pretty much English, while High Gothic is Latin, and the Galactic standard is Low Gothic.

More than a few books refer to things like the Ork word Kommando being a loan word from an extinct dialect of human language, implying English died a long time ago. I also recall a few citations saying that in any given text Gothic was being translated to English/other-modern-language for our convenience rather than accuracy. I'll look around for citations some time when I wake up tomorrow if required, but I think the Kommando example is from a Cain book, maybe one of the old Ork codices as well.

High Gothic is certainly equivalent to Latin though, with Low Gothic being similar to the languages derived from Latin, like French, English and Italian, but on a galactic scale.

The Glyphstone

2015-08-30, 08:57 PM

Though the idea of an empire the size of the Imperium, with the travel times involved between planets even through the Warp, having a single unified common language (as opposed to a formal/liturgical language) without any variation in dialect beyond some convenient local slang, is bizarre in its own right.

Cheesegear

2015-08-30, 09:07 PM

without any variation in dialect beyond some convenient local slang, is bizarre in its own right.

There's lots of variation. Don't you play Rogue Trader? Don't you know this?

As I said earlier, Mankind's spread thoughout the Galaxy ended in roughly M25, and started again in M30 as part of the Emperor's Great Crusade to reclaim all the lost worlds. Everyone at M25 spoke roughly the same language, Mankind then had 5000 years (roughly the equivalent of our entire IRL history) to change languages and add new words and grab dialects - which they did. However, Mankind has then had another 10 thousand years to group itself back together. Everyone speaks Low Gothic, otherwise nothing will get done, ever. Chinese people learn English. But, while everyone speaks Low Gothic, Speak Language (Hive Metallican Dialect) is a thing (off the top of my head, Dark Heresy), but, people from Scintilla still speak Low Gothic.

Essentially, it seems like there are a lot of planets in 40K where bilingualism is normal.

The Glyphstone

2015-08-30, 09:10 PM

There's lots of variation. Don't you play Rogue Trader? Don't you know this?

As I said earlier, Mankind's spread thoughout the Galaxy ended in roughly M25, and started again in M30 as part of the Emperor's Great Crusade to reclaim all the lost worlds. Everyone at M25 spoke roughly the same language, Mankind then had 5000 years (roughly the equivalent of our entire IRL history) to change languages and add new words and grab dialects - which they did. However, Mankind has then had another 10 thousand years to group itself back together. Everyone speaks Low Gothic, otherwise nothing will get done, ever. Chinese people learn English. But, while everyone speaks Low Gothic, Speak Language (Hive Metallican Dialect) is a thing (off the top of my head, Dark Heresy), but, people from Scintilla still speak Low Gothic.

Essentially, it seems like there are a lot of planets in 40K where bilingualism is normal.

Okay, I stand corrected, and I should have remembered that. Though I wish it would appear in the fiction more often - outside of the RPGs, the only languages in existence appear to be Low and High Gothic.

Blackhawk748

2015-08-30, 09:13 PM

Okay, I stand corrected, and I should have remembered that. Though I wish it would appear in the fiction more often - outside of the RPGs, the only languages in existence appear to be Low and High Gothic.

Dont forget whatever it is ratings on ships speak. I have no clue but i hear about it in passing whenever the main character is on a ship. First time i came across it was in Dark Adeptus (fun read btw) and i believe it is mentioned in Xenos (which i really need to finish that series)

Cheesegear

2015-08-30, 09:14 PM

Though I wish it would appear in the fiction more often - outside of the RPGs, the only languages in existence appear to be Low and High Gothic.

Leman Russ spoke Fenrisian, does that count?
Some people say 'feth', other books say 'frak', they mean the same thing.

Blackhawk748

2015-08-30, 09:18 PM

Leman Russ spoke Fenrisian, does that count?
Some people say 'feth', other books say 'frak', they mean the same thing.

I saw "frag" once. That would be Dark Adeptus again, though that seems mostly a dialect thing.

Grytorm

2015-08-30, 09:55 PM

I had an idea for a Space Marine chapter that I would want to play if I ever got into the game. So I wanted to write up the rough backstory to just see if it seems correct. So here it is:

Names Uncertain:

The chapters true origins are lost as are there parent chapter. Furthermore the nature of their parent chapter is further confused by the somewhat mixed nature of their geneseed. Their founding was most likely the eighth ninth or tenth.

Their original home system was a popular trade route heading towards Terra featuring a number of small aggri/feral worlds which fed an Imperial world slowly approaching a Hive world. Their most notorious contribution to Imperial history was during the age of Apostacy in which they were loosely aligned with the Ecclisiarchy trading some level of service for a right to tithe the trade going through their system and were allowed a force above Codex standards (around 1400 Marines). As the age came to an end they resisted the reforms that Thor was putting in place and harbored allies of Goge Vandire. Eventually their unwillingness to change led to a short civil war in which most of their forces were wiped out and the worlds in their system were largely purged.

The chapter chose penitence over annihilation and went on a crusade. With limited resources they were on crusade for a good amount of time replenishing their numbers with some difficulty using only the geneseed from their progenoid opportunistically. Eventually they participated in a war against another chapter. In the aftermath they were able to obtain a bounty of geneseed, sufficient to reestablish their numbers to codex levels.

The formerly growing imperial world in the long history since their departure had withered. Without cheap food (weak gravity wells from small worlds made interplanetary shipping cheapish) from a nearby system they could not feed a constant growth. Furthermore with the decline of that worlds industry and no foodstuffs on route the trade withered leaving only a reasonable stream of pilgrims moving through the systems.

The chapter applied to claim the former industrial world as theirs and reestablishment of their old tithes. This was granted given the lack of good moving through. What was unexpected was that the chapter under a new name purged many of the worlds citizens and converted many others to servitors. They set long abandoned forges set alight. The tithe they demanded from passing ships was people.

That a rough badly written outline. Thoughts/suggestions?

Lord Ruby34

2015-08-30, 10:15 PM

I'm not sure if this is a better question for the main thread or not, but it seems more fluff then tactics related to me, so I'm going to ask it here. Where would be a good place to find human female guard heads and legs? Or just human female heads in general. I'd like to stick them on a Tau pathfinder body, and maybe grab some extra for a mixed race Fire Warriors unit.

Cheesegear

2015-08-30, 11:48 PM

Mh... that sounds like something interesting to read, when does Cypher say that? :smallsmile: I would like to get something to read :smalltongue: and both Cypher and Eldar are pretty cool.

I'm planning an Eldar novel for NaNoWriMo this year (November), after having given myself the idea exactly the same time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18370512&postcount=618) last year (check the date stamp). So Cypher will say it then, if it gets written. :smallwink:

I'd love Ahriman to show up, too. But, really, I'm waiting for John French to finish his trilogy. If only for the fact that - like Drasius - I'm convinced that French is using the Chaos Codex for ideas. Since I'm not entirely certain how the Ahriman trilogy is supposed to dovetail into Atlas Infernal.
(Also, I have Ahriman: The First Prince downloading at the time of this post.)

I had an idea for a Space Marine chapter that I would want to play if I ever got into the game.

Cribbing straight from Deathwath - Rites of Battle.

The chapters true origins are lost as are there parent chapter. Furthermore the nature of their parent chapter is further confused by the somewhat mixed nature of their geneseed. Their founding was most likely the eighth ninth or tenth.

While we shouldn't know the Chapter's Primogenitors, you should.

The major cause for the Ninth Founding is The Pale Wasting (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Pale_Wasting). Some sort of combination of xenos and plague that seemed to only effect Space Marines. Chapters created during the Ninth were probably more likely to be disease-resistant.

The Tenth Founding happened just before The Howling (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Howling), Chapters created at the Tenth were hamstrung in their infancy due to having almost no Psykers, no communication with Terra and a bunch of planets turned to Barbarism. If your Chapter was created during this time, their early history was fraught with problems and the Chapter is almost certain to be hated by it's home system for whatever it had to do to Pacify certain planets. Residual lack of Psykers could also be a thing, although after The Howling, there's no reason for this to be the case, and a lot of time has passed since M35.

Their original home system was a popular trade route heading towards Terra featuring a number of small agri/feral worlds which fed an Imperial world slowly approaching a Hive world. Their most notorious contribution to Imperial history was during the age of Apostacy in which they were loosely aligned with the Ecclisiarchy trading some level of service for a right to tithe the trade going through their system and were allowed a force above Codex standards (around 1400 Marines). As the age came to an end they resisted the reforms that Thor was putting in place and harbored allies of Goge Vandire. Eventually their unwillingness to change led to a short civil war in which most of their forces were wiped out and the worlds in their system were largely purged.

This needs...Fixing. Mostly because the native inhabitants of the planet, and the Chapter of Space Marines are different, and you seem to be referring to both as 'they'. I'm confused. You'll need to think of Proper Nouns pretty quickly. Was the planet a haven for Vandire? Or was the Chapter a haven for Vandire? Because the latter doesn't make any sense, because Space Marines rather infamously didn't take part in the Age of Apostasy. However, after The Howling, several worlds fell to barbarism, and in steps the Ecclesiarchy to fix everything. Since any Chapter crated during the Tenth is a proverbial baby, having no Psykers and no access to Terra, that's a ...Thing.

So, by the time M36 rolls around and the Age of Apostasy begins, [Chapter] is already best friends with the Ecclesiarchy...Or something. Space Marines and the Ecclesiarchy have a tenuous relationship at best. The Imperial Truth that the Emperor Himself handed down, is not the same as the modern Imperial Creed, and Space Marines know this (Space Marines were there at the Battle of Terra, without Psykers, the Imperium loses, the Edict of Nikea was a mistake, and hinted to be a plot by Lorgar [or Lorgar just took massive advantage of it]. Psykers are mandatory to the Imperium's survival. The Ecclesiarchy is dead wrong). Especially as Space Marines are generally Founded by 10-20 already-Veteran Space Marines to head up the Chapter's initial Chapter Master and Founding Captains. Having said that, not knowing who your gene-seed belongs to is actually fairly rare, because your Chapter's initial Command Staff can't be stupid, but then the Command Staff would tell their underlings who they're from (unless they're, say, from disease-resistant Death Guard stock).

The canon largest Chapter is only 1200 line Marines. Including Scouts. Breaking hard canon like that is...Not right.

The chapter chose penitence over annihilation and went on a crusade. With limited resources they were on crusade for a good amount of time replenishing their numbers with some difficulty using only the geneseed from their progenoid opportunistically. Eventually they participated in a war against another chapter. In the aftermath they were able to obtain a bounty of geneseed, sufficient to reestablish their numbers to codex levels.

Different Chapters' Gene-seeds aren't exactly compatible. Doing so generally leads to rampant mutation within the Chapter.

A canon example of what you almost seem to want is the Mantis Warriors, with a damaged Preomnor Gland. The Preomnor Gland also happens to be one of the two organs that give Space Marines resistance to poisons. The Mantis Warriors were created during the Eighth Founding, so, it could be fairly reasonably assumed that the Adeptus improved on the Mantis Warrior seed for the Ninth or Tenth Founding.

Originally posted by Lexicanum
The Geneseed of the Mantis Warriors has a flaw - it does not function properly with the Preomnor implant. As such, when a Mantis Warrior sets himself into a certain frame of mind the Prenomor gland secretes a potent neurotoxin that permanently changes the marine's physiology; the frame of mind in question is one of deepest penance and piety. This neurotoxin alters the marine's sense of space and time, increasing his reaction rate to near-precognitive states; it also increases his strength to a great extent.

Mantis Warriors are White Scars stock.

Anyway, that's Founding. But there's a lot more.

Gene-Seed: I've already mentioned the improved Mantis Warriors formula, which is then traced back to the White Scars. A lot of Mantis Warriors' records were kept on the hush-hush after the Badab War, but that didn't happen until M41. You could say that after the Badab War, a bunch of Inquisition dudes came and purged anyone with connections to the Badab Renegades, and that's how all your upper Command Staff and Chapter History was burned to the ground, leaving only noobs in charge. But, like I said, that didn't happen until at least M41 - current time.

Personality: Could have been heavily influenced by the Ecclesiarchy in the beginning, and never stopped.

Chapter Flaws: Same as Mantis Warriors? But, if you're going to mix gene-seeds, bad stuff can happen.

Chapter Heroes: Who is the current Chapter Master? What does he want? How did he get to be Chapter Master? Why is he amazing? What are his goals for the Chapter in the near-future? If your Chapter was decapitated in the aftermath of the Badab War, it's likely that your Chapter Master was thrust into Command without warning (going from Sergeant to CM with no Captain middle-step), and is probably very young for a Chapter Master and has a lot to prove, probably also trying to distance himself and his Chapter from the Renegades, doing as much as he can to put the Chapter back into Terra's good graces - they're already on shaky ground with other Chapters for being in the pocket of the Ecclesiarchy.

Grytorm

2015-08-31, 01:39 AM

Hm, thank you for the advice. Going all the way back to the age of Apostacy might be bit off. But it also does kind of work. I'll think about the background some more.

The thing with the Ecclisiarchy is definitely confused in my head. Partly from idea drift. And I thought before today that the apostacy ended with a larger war. I think that the former tie to the faith would be more to represent former decadence and pride. Thinking that maybe during their early history they were more materialistic than a chapter should be. If they were founded before the Howling and were located on a fairly stable warp route then that could lead to materialism. I think some of my weirder ideas of tithing pilgrims should be abandoned for now.

My mistake for making them to large, I thought some canon chapters were much larger than that (I thought Spacewolves had over 10000).

Probably I would tie them to the Mantis Warriors. Make them have a very similar seed so an exchange would be plausible. So maybe they participated in the Badab war and in the aftermath they were able to secure an exchange of geneseed to replenish their numbers. (Maybe a lesser form of the Mantis weakness combined with less efficient progenoids which kept numbers low during penitence explaining why they need outside seed. They could replace losses but not expand well)

Hm to tie in the original home system idea with a previously wandering chapter and Whitescar descent could be an emphasis on Thunderhawk support and assault.

Okay their chapter master. I've got a weird idea which depends on if the Sarcophagus can be separated from a Dreadnought body. The chapter master is somewhat young but still experienced. He earned his position for valor and leadership in whatever war cost the last master his life. The captains worry that he doesn't listen to the advice of his subordinates. The scouts tell stories of how he is accompanied by the spirit of the old master lending him wisdom beyond his years. What this wisdom is would be two Librarians preserved since they lost their homeworld who have been offering advice since then. Lending the Masters a seemingly uncanny ability to read others. But this is dangerous, because they come from when the chapter was fairly corrupt and they miss those days.

His goals would be influenced by the Librarians, and they might lead to him making decisions with cross purposes. Such as trying to secure stable supply lines with a forge world while also trying to gain an advantage in the partnership. I think I like the idea of bitter pride as a theme.

Artanis

2015-08-31, 02:14 AM

My mistake for making them to large, I thought some canon chapters were much larger than that (I thought Spacewolves had over 10000).
You're probably thinking of the Black Templars. The Space Wolves may be a bit larger than the Codex says they should be (not that they really care overly much about what the Codex says about organization), but not by much. They might have an extra few hundred, but not an order of magnitude.

The Black Templars, on the other hand, have something like 5K-6K. HOWEVER, they're a terrible chapter to base things off of because the only reason the Inquisition hasn't tried to wipe them out yet is because they're ultra-zealous murderhobos who are too busy chain-crusading all over the galaxy to get around to having a homeworld, much less come together as a cohesive force. Any chapter with those numbers AND a solid, cohesive power base would've long since eaten a whole 'lotta Cyclonic Torpedoes.

Cheesegear

2015-08-31, 02:15 AM

Hm, thank you for the advice. Going all the way back to the age of Apostacy might be bit off.

You specifically mentioned Vandire, and then mentioned 9/10th Founding. You seemed to be on the right track.

And I thought before today that the apostacy ended with a larger war.

Only on Terra, not on a Galactic scale.
You may also be thinking of the other thing that happened in M35, that wasn't the Age of Apostasy... The Imperium literally split itself into two (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nova_Terra_Interregnum), ending in the Cataclysm of Souls. What you may be thinking of, is that this large civil war, in fact, led to the Age of Apostasy in M36.

<100.M35 - Entire Segmentum Pacificus fragments from the Imperium. Ends in...
975.M35 - Cataclysm of Souls. The Ecclesiarchy demolishes the Ur-Council after 900 years of war. Ecclesiarchy is the best.
200.M36 - Vandire becomes the Ecclesiarch, whose power has basically been unchecked for ~200 years.
238.M361 - Terran Crusade, started by the Black Templars.*, Dominica shoots Vandire in the face.

* Turns out there were actually four Space Marine Chapters that got involved in the War itself**. But for the 38 years prior, Marines basically stayed out of it. Turns out, the only reason that the Terran Crusade did happen was because Space Marines finally did get involved.

**Imperial Fists, Fire Hawks, Soul Drinkers and Black Templars. It's no surprise that Imperial Fists (and two of their Successors) turned out to be good at invading Terra. Black Templars would be the ones to go to Terra to shut down Vandire, wouldn't they? Imperial Fists got in on the action because they live in the Solar Segmentum, and it's specifically their job to protect Terra. Only way that Terra gets attacked, is if the Fists allow it (except when Necrons just teleport straight in)...And the Fists decided to be the attackers...Soul Drinkers are there...Because. And the Fire Hawks get in because Vandire ordered their homeworld destroyed and now they're pissed.

During the 900 years of war, there's a [poop]-ton of Space Marine Foundings to fight the war. Foundings 10 through 20 happen in this period. I wonder why?
But the Age of Apostasy was really only limited to the Segmentum Solar, and Terra itself.

1 Old, old fluff says 378.M36, IA9 says it's much, much earlier than that.

My mistake for making them to large, I thought some canon chapters were much larger than that (I thought Spacewolves had over 10000).

Woah.
If we generously assume that the Space Wolves have 150 per Company (Companies of Space Wolves have been shown, we know almost exactly how many Marines in a Company, and one of the ones shown is specifically one of the largest, and it's not even that big), 12 Companies, equals 1800 Marines. 2000, tops, if you're even more generous. But Space Wolves are not a Codex Chapter and haven't been since the beginning, and can back up their divergentness with strength-of-arms and a string of kick-ass Chapter Masters - and other Space Marine Chapters refuse to fight against the Space Wolves based on that long, awesome history (don't fight your Brothers).

When Inquisitors come a'knocking, they've been known to not come back.

Remembering that Terra actually likes The Codex, because it's primarily The Space Marine Constitution (not whatever 4chan thinks it is), and The Codex's primary purpose is to actually arbitrarily limit the political and military power of Space Marine Chapter Masters, specifically in order to prevent a second Heresy. It's hard to find a good reason why the High Lords would want to break that.

Space Wolves are actually a special case, and not because they have Terra's permission - in fact they specifically don't.

So maybe they participated in the Badab war

The Badab War is kind of fixed. We know exactly who fought in it.

Wraith

2015-08-31, 12:11 PM

More than a few books refer to things like the Ork word Kommando being a loan word from an extinct dialect of human language, implying English died a long time ago.

The word "commando" is Portuguese/Afrikaans, with "kommando" being the German variant. All three are long-dead languages in 40k.

High Gothic is certainly equivalent to Latin though, with Low Gothic being similar to the languages derived from Latin, like French, English and Italian, but on a galactic scale.

What we know as French is known in 40k as Old Frankish (As of Dan Abnett's Pariah). A small handful of archaic scholars know it, and a few others who need a 'secret' language for their own purposes (Inquisitors and Inquisitorial-equivalent secret societies) have made use of it, but it is otherwise dead.

The Black Templars, on the other hand, have something like 5K-6K.

Some sources claim closer to 10-12k. They are, without any doubt, the single largest Chapter in the Imperium; some of their crusades have as many soldiers in them as some First Founding Chapters.

I'm planning an Eldar novel for NaNoWriMo this year (November), after having given myself the idea exactly the same time last year (check the date stamp). So Cypher will say it then, if it gets written.

I have been toying with the idea for a story of my own for NaNoWriMo, not Eldar but none the less still 40k. If you find yourself needing a 'buddy' to keep up you enthusiasm (God knows, I probably will...) then give me a nudge :smalltongue:

DaedalusMkV

2015-08-31, 12:40 PM

The Black Templars, on the other hand, have something like 5K-6K. HOWEVER, they're a terrible chapter to base things off of because the only reason the Inquisition hasn't tried to wipe them out yet is because they're ultra-zealous murderhobos who are too busy chain-crusading all over the galaxy to get around to having a homeworld, much less come together as a cohesive force. Any chapter with those numbers AND a solid, cohesive power base would've long since eaten a whole 'lotta Cyclonic Torpedoes.

At least 8000 Black Templars, absolutely minimum, based on how many Crusade Fleets we know were operating at the same time. Possibly more, not that that matters.

The Black Templars get a free pass for a bunch of reasons. First, they might have those numbers but their actual, set-in-stone rule is to never gather more than Chapter strength in one place, which is the main reason for the Chapter size limitation. Second, they have no true central leadership, with each Marshal having absolute command of his own Crusade Fleet and the High Marshal being essentially an honorary position. Put those together and the Templars are more "Ten Chapters that all happen to wear the same colours and use the same name" than one mega-Chapter. Plus, they're the second most incorruptible of all the Chapters, with very few instances of even single Battle-Brothers falling to Chaos and no history of large groups all going bad at once. Besides which, they'd be nearly impossible to wipe out at this point, considering that they have Crusades going in every single theatre of war the Imperium engages in.

Of course, from their perspective they're just doing the same thing they've always been doing. "The Emperor told us to crusade until all the Xenos are dead and all humans have joined His Imperium. He also told us not to use Psykers. So that's what we'll do, until the job is done or He says otherwise." Basically, the Black Templars decided the Great Crusade wasn't over until they said it was over, and screw Guillaman and these High Lord losers for trying to say otherwise.

Artanis

2015-08-31, 01:11 PM

At least 8000 Black Templars, absolutely minimum, based on how many Crusade Fleets we know were operating at the same time. Possibly more, not that that matters.

The Black Templars get a free pass for a bunch of reasons. First, they might have those numbers but their actual, set-in-stone rule is to never gather more than Chapter strength in one place, which is the main reason for the Chapter size limitation. Second, they have no true central leadership, with each Marshal having absolute command of his own Crusade Fleet and the High Marshal being essentially an honorary position. Put those together and the Templars are more "Ten Chapters that all happen to wear the same colours and use the same name" than one mega-Chapter. Plus, they're the second most incorruptible of all the Chapters, with very few instances of even single Battle-Brothers falling to Chaos and no history of large groups all going bad at once. Besides which, they'd be nearly impossible to wipe out at this point, considering that they have Crusades going in every single theatre of war the Imperium engages in.

Of course, from their perspective they're just doing the same thing they've always been doing. "The Emperor told us to crusade until all the Xenos are dead and all humans have joined His Imperium. He also told us not to use Psykers. So that's what we'll do, until the job is done or He says otherwise." Basically, the Black Templars decided the Great Crusade wasn't over until they said it was over, and screw Guillaman and these High Lord losers for trying to say otherwise.
That's pretty much what I was going for, I just didn't word it very well :smallredface:

A "normal" chapter with that many members would've been wiped out by the Inquisition. But the BTs aren't a normal chapter, they're a scattered bunch of guys who happen to have the same badge on their shoulder. As such, they really don't count when it comes to looking at how big a "normal" chapter can get. The BTs having ten thousand Astartes has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not any other chapter anywhere ever is allowed to have ten thousand Astartes :smallsmile:

DaedalusMkV

2015-08-31, 01:45 PM

That's pretty much what I was going for, I just didn't word it very well :smallredface:

A "normal" chapter with that many members would've been wiped out by the Inquisition. But the BTs aren't a normal chapter, they're a scattered bunch of guys who happen to have the same badge on their shoulder. As such, they really don't count when it comes to looking at how big a "normal" chapter can get. The BTs having ten thousand Astartes has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not any other chapter anywhere ever is allowed to have ten thousand Astartes :smallsmile:

Well, the Grey Knights have around 2400 members according to their newest book (including more than 1200 Terminators!), but they also get a free pass because they're actually part of the Inquisition and they happen to be that #1 that the Black Templars come in second place to when it comes to never falling to Chaos. When the guys whose job it is to enforce the rules work for you, it's pretty easy to ignore those rules.

Grytorm

2015-08-31, 02:06 PM

13_CBS

2015-08-31, 02:40 PM

Artanis

2015-08-31, 02:55 PM

I thought the Space Wolves were much larger than normal because of bad sources on their size and the fact that they couldn't efficiently form successor chapters because of the chalice thing they kept in the basement. So were they the same size when they were a legion? If not what happened to the rest of the members?
The inability to form successor chapters is probably one reason (out of many) that the Imperium accepts "NO U" as sufficient reasoning for being allowed to be bigger than normal.

Like has been said though, they aren't that much bigger than normal. As CG said, 1800 is probably a good estimate for the upper limit of what they might have, and I figure that ~1200 is a good lower limit*, so I'll go with the Space Wolves being "about 1500, give or take a few hundred".

I wouldn't be surprised if the Space Wolves Legion had 10K at some point pre-Heresy. Other than losing half their members to their ill-fated successor chapter, I dunno specifically what happened to their numbers.

*Each Great Company is described as being analogous to a Codex chapter Company. Between that and 150 being one of the large ones, I figure a good lower limit would be to figure that they average out to be a Company's 100. Like CG's upper limit, it's highly doubtful that it's actually that amount.

DaedalusMkV

2015-08-31, 03:07 PM

Cheesegear

2015-08-31, 06:35 PM

How would an Inquisitor go about bringing down a Space Marine chapter? Gather evidence of serious corruption, show evidence to other Inquisitors to gain their support in order to persuade the Grey Knights as well as use the evidence to bring in other Space Marine Chapters?

Typically, 'gathering evidence' requires doing it in person. Space Wolves, rather adamantly, have the ability to turn back Inquisitors, while other Chapters, like the Flesh Tearers and Black Dragons, invite Inquisitors into their house and then - allegedly - murder them. Even if a Chapter does let an Inquisitor in on all their secrets, it's still pretty hard. What an Inquisitor really wants to do is catch Heresy in the wild, and then order Exterminatus.

"The only thing that can kill a Space Marine is another Space Marine."

Generally speaking, when an Inquisitor wants to lay waste to a Chapter, they need another Chapter to do it. Destroying a planet is easy, destroying Space Marines is much more difficult. Fenris couldn't be destroyed because of its strategic location outside the Eye of Terror and a hop-skip away from Cadia. The Inquisition tries destroying the Space Wolves without other Marines, and somebody who has read Emperor's Gift can tell you how that goes.

One of Vandire's first acts was to destroy the Fire Hawks' home planet. Luckily, most of the Chapter wasn't home, and other Marines refused to fight them, and, IMO, that it's because of what happened to the Fire Hawks, that other Marine Chapters stayed out of the Age of Apostasy (until Black Templars decided enough was enough).

Same for Space Wolves, mostly. When an Inquisitor rocks up to a Chapter Master and says "I need you to go kill the Space Wolves."
"U wot m8?"
Nearly all Chapters are on friendly terms with Space Wolf. Space Wolf holds awesome parties and is the best friend that all Space Marines have. Space Wolf gets drunk all the time, but Space Wolf has your back in a fight. No matter what. Need help moving a couch? Space Wolf will come help. Drive home from the airport? Space Wolf will tell his boss that he's not coming into work and he'll show up. If you can get past Space Wolf's really weird wolf fetish, he's actually the coolest guy around. So, when somebody tries to fight Space Wolf, you step up, or you're a Bad Friend.

Killing the Relictors was easy. They don't have any friends.

13_CBS

2015-08-31, 07:21 PM

The Inquisition tries destroying the Space Wolves without other Marines, and somebody who has read Emperor's Gift can tell you how that goes.

Well, to the Inquisition's credit, by the time they decided to lay siege to Fenris (pfffft) they realized they needed to bring in Marines and got Red Hunters and the Grey Knights to back them up...

Blackhawk748

2015-08-31, 07:35 PM

Well, to the Inquisition's credit, by the time they decided to lay siege to Fenris (pfffft) they realized they needed to bring in Marines and got Red Hunters and the Grey Knights to back them up...

I think standard procedure should be Minotaurs, Black Templars, plus whoever else you can wrangle up to take out a chapter. Id add two more chapters to the minimum required to take on the Space Wolves.

Though thats gonna be hard, as they usually pay for the beer :smalltongue:

Wraith

2015-08-31, 08:14 PM

The Grey Knights only get involved if there's some Daemonic possession going on, although they can be called on to pass final judgement on whether a Chapter is redeemable or not.

The novel The Emperor's Gift states that this isn't true. Grey Knights can and do get involved with inter-Chapter politics on the order of the Inquisition. While they prefer daemonic enemies, they're famous (at least, amongst the small number of people who know anything about them) for not asking questions and will do exactly what they're told. They might not like it, but they are foremost among Astartes in recognising that what they want has nothing to do with what they get.

Similarly, they don't have a say in the outcome of an Inquisitorial investigation. If something is suspected to be Daemonic, they'll go and purge it for certain but no one asks them what they think of a none-daemon situation. No soldier would bother asking their gun whether or not it wanted to shoot someone, or for what reason, after all.

Alternatively, as with the Celestial Lions, sometimes the Inquisition doesn't bother filling out the paperwork (especially since the Lions weren't actually traitors, merely loyalist Marines the Inquisition decided were inconvenient) and just takes things into their own hands. They have plenty of resources to Exterminatus one measly Chapter's homeworld and then slowly wipe them out, or have their Geneseed vaults 'mysteriously' disappear.

This is the one that makes me wonder. Anyone who knows anything about Space Wolves knows about Wulfen and Longfangs - Astartes with mutations, no matter how you try to sugar coat it. One would think that the Inquisition would have started a covert campaign to do something about that by now, if not because of that but because the Wolves are complete jerks when they want to be and whole Chapters have been deleted for less.

What I'm suggesting is, Bjorn must know something incriminating about someone in a high place, and has been passing it on to his successors ever since he was entombed..... :smallwink:

Basically, the usual method when one Inquisitor doesn't quite have the authority/resources to get the job done; convince enough Inquisitors so that you do have the combined authority/resources to get the job done, then do it, by hammer or scalpel as you prefer.

Even that depends on the Inquisitor. A particularly unhinged Radical might just turn up with an Armada and an itchy trigger finger, shoot first, reload, shoot again, and not bother asking questions. Given the logistics of warp travel and the likes, it's very unlikely that anyone will arrive in time to directly countermand his instructions, and confronting him after the event isn't much comfort to the Chapter that just got atomized. Just as Kryptman (different reasons, but similar attitude and outcome) :smalltongue:

I think standard procedure should be Minotaurs, Black Templars, plus whoever else you can wrangle up to take out a chapter. Id add two more chapters to the minimum required to take on the Space Wolves.

It's hard to get enough of the Black Templars in one place for long enough. While Crusades tend to be pretty big things, they're always off on the fringes of the galaxy or so deep in enemy territory that extracting them is a logistically ridiculous process. Besides, while Black Templars are loyal to the Imperium, they're notoriously unruly when it comes to obeying instructions from someone else. The Emperor told them to go on Crusade, and until someone more important than Him says otherwise, they're not about to stop and listen to some mere High Lord of Terra!
The Minotaurs, meanwhile, are rumoured to have been "commissioned", and are sponsored by, the Ecclesiarchy and as such are viewed with suspicion by quite a lot of other agencies - not just because they specialise in killing other Astartes, which makes relations with their battle brothers difficult enough as it is.

Generally the Inquisition uses the Grey Knights, who were specifically created to be the Inquisition's tools, and the Red Scorpions who, if not created by Inquisitorial instruction to serve the Inquisition directly, have enough ties, oathbonds and other honourable requirements to them as to make no difference. Not to mention that there are some Chapters who are not so deeply entrenched with the Inquisition, but are still inclined to follow orders.

The Glyphstone

2015-08-31, 10:15 PM

T
What I'm suggesting is, Bjorn must know something incriminating about someone in a high place, and has been passing it on to his successors ever since he was entombed..... :smallwink:

They keep him around and awaken him for parties to tell stories about the Emperor and Leman Russ, but the most valuable (and secret) story he has is about that one time he, Guilleman, and the Emperor all got raging drunk and decided to go get matching tattoos...

Grytorm

2015-09-01, 12:01 AM

I'd expect that the Inqusition would be somewhat careful around Space Wolves given that they are a popular chapter that has sported the mutations for much of their history with many victories to their name. Failing an attempt to gank them or perhaps succeeding could possibly lead to a major civil war, or worse lead to a war against the Inqusition.

And direct assault with no good evidence or at least good suspicions seems like a risky proposition.

Artanis

2015-09-01, 12:23 AM

The Space Wolves also aren't big fans of what the Inquisition did after the 1st War for Armageddon.

Cheesegear

2015-09-01, 12:50 AM

The Space Wolves also aren't big fans of what the Inquisition did after the 1st War for Armageddon.

Specifically, Logan Grimnar. While the Inquisition was always on Space Wolves' case, most of the time they were simply an inconvenient part of life. Show Inquisitors around The Fang, let look around in the above-ground floors, give 'em a beer and send 'em home. Basically, Space Wolves treated Inquisitors like Game Devs treat YouTubers, fly them out to an event, show them a good time, and hopefully they'll forget the fact that certain parts of the game are terrible or has game-breaking bugs in.

Logan wins Armageddon, losing a significant chunk of his Chapter, and a full Brotherhood of Grey Knights died. But, Logan largely credits the victory on Armageddon to the countless Imperial Guard who fought, bled, and died beside the Space Wolves. "He who bleeds with me this day shall be my brother." Logan personally walks around the survivors of Armageddon, personally thanking several. Remembering that at this point, Logan Grimnar is Lord Solar. Logan is essentially the equivalent of Horus at the height of his power, and he's personally going up to the line-members of Imperial Guard regiments, telling them how brave they were, and that the day would have been lost without them. No matter how many Imperial Guard there are, every single one of them in the line, matters.

Logan Grimnar is a Hero, in every sense of the word.

Shortly after Armageddon, the Inquisition starts purging the Armageddon regiments, they witnessed Angron, they saw Daemons. In Logan's mind, the Inquisition is going around shooting his brothers in the head, for winning the war. To Logan, that's unacceptable, and The Old Wolf Never Forgets.

hamishspence

2015-09-01, 01:05 AM

"He who bleeds with me this day shall be my brother."

Ah, yes, the Henry V quote. Also favoured by the Flesh Tearers, in the form:

"For he that sheds his blood with me today will be my battle brother eternal"

Blackhawk748

2015-09-01, 05:56 AM

I will never understand why the Inquisition does this. "Ok they won, but the saw Daemons so we need to shoot them" "Wait aminute, why dont we just put them on some ships and use them to fight other Daemons?" "Nope, gonna shoot them."

Seriously, quite destroying a valuable resource.

The Glyphstone

2015-09-01, 06:02 AM

Guardsmen.....valuable resource....AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH heresy BLAM.

Cheesegear

2015-09-01, 06:31 AM

Seriously, quite destroying a valuable resource.

It's not so much Corruption that the Inquisition is worried about - although that is a real and present worry at all times. Even without Corruption, the Inquisition's stock in trade, is Ignorance. The Emperor said that There Were No Gods. He was lying through his teeth, Malcador knew it, Magnus knew it, and Lorgar figured it out even though Magnus specifically told him not to. What the Inquisition does, is treat everyone as a potential Lorgar. If Guardsmen don't know that Gods and Daemons exist - aside from the Emperor and His Saints - they can't call them for help.

Knowledge is Power.

I have been toying with the idea for a story of my own for NaNoWriMo, not Eldar but none the less still 40k.

Anything good? Want to share with the thread?

If you find yourself needing a 'buddy' to keep up you enthusiasm (God knows, I probably will...) then give me a nudge :smalltongue:

It's not so much enthusiasm that I need, but time.

Platinius

2015-09-01, 07:30 AM

It's not so much Corruption that the Inquisition is worried about - although that is a real and present worry at all times. Even without Corruption, the Inquisition's stock in trade, is Ignorance. The Emperor said that There Were No Gods. He was lying through his teeth, Malcador knew it, Magnus knew it, and Lorgar figured it out even though Magnus specifically told him not to. What the Inquisition does, is treat everyone as a potential Lorgar. If Guardsmen don't know that Gods and Daemons exist - aside from the Emperor and His Saints - they can't call them for help.

Knowledge is Power.

Anything good? Want to share with the thread?

It's not so much enthusiasm that I need, but time.

To keep their general troops ignorant about a very real threat is stupid to say the least, to teach them only bare essentials on the other hand...

warp creatures = demons = real
demons=bad

=> general guideline pamphlet given to guardsmen as part of the Primer handed out to everyone in IG

Q1:see demon?
A1:shoot it! then warn comrades and inform superiours like about any other threat
Q2:still see a demon?
A2:Yes? go to A1 No? warn comrades and inform superiours like about any other threat

Have interest in demons and warp?
Protip from every single Inquisitor: forget about about it as fast as you can, you are better off not knowing and not because of anything the Inquisition could do to you

Kesnit

2015-09-01, 08:25 AM

To keep their general troops ignorant about a very real threat is stupid to say the least, to teach them only bare essentials on the other hand...

warp creatures = demons = real
demons=bad

=> general guideline pamphlet given to guardsmen as part of the Primer handed out to everyone in IG

Q1:see demon?
A1:shoot it! then warn comrades and inform superiours like about any other threat
Q2:still see a demon?
A2:Yes? go to A1 No? warn comrades and inform superiours like about any other threat

Have interest in demons and warp?
Protip from every single Inquisitor: forget about about it as fast as you can, you are better off not knowing and not because of anything the Inquisition could do to you

There will always be people who are curious, self-centered, or just evil. Some people, if told what you wrote above, would say "OK, see demon, kill demon, report to superior." Other people would say "why? What is a demon? Why are they so bad?" And then there would be people who would say "IG sucks. I wonder what kind of deal I would get if I ran off and teamed up with that demon..."

Wraith

2015-09-01, 08:31 AM

I will never understand why the Inquisition does this. "Ok they won, but the saw Daemons so we need to shoot them" "Wait a minute, why don't we just put them on some ships and use them to fight other Daemons?" "Nope, gonna shoot them."

Seriously, quite destroying a valuable resource.

On the one hand, the Inquisition has learned from the Heresy.
Back in 30k, the Emperor told everyone that there was no such thing as Gods or Daemons, which is why everyone was so utterly, horribly unprepared when they were unleashed upon Calth and Terra. In 40k, it's fairly well known that daemons do exist, insofar as they are another type of monster to fight against. Space Marines treat them as just another type of xenos to purge, because they're badass and hypnotically indoctrinated enough to do it with relatively few lapses, and the Guard now has the Inquisition and the Commissariat watching over them to limit the damage.

In 40k, the forces of the Imperium know that daemons are a thing, and that they have to be fought. And that's all they need to know.

On the other hand, simply knowing about them does not protect you from them or their influence. The very nature of Chaos is insidious - spend enough time around it, soaking in the influence of the warp, and eventually it will take hold in you. Having Guardsmen fight daemons, and then sending them off to fight more daemons, and then MORE daemons, is a guarantee that they will, at some point, Fall. It's just a matter of time and the only way to prevent it is inhuman regimens of hypnotherapy and constant vigilance (as with Astartes) or death.

The view of the Inquisition is that death now is far, far better than the ruination of the Guardsmens' souls and then death AFTER they have rebelled and dragged their Regiment, command structure, armoured corps and - potentially - the planet upon which they are stationed down with them.

Anything good? Want to share with the thread?

I may have mentioned it before, a while ago.

The Imperial Guardians Chapter of Space Marines are distantly derived from the Imperial Fists. They're not so close to their parent Legion as to be invited to the Feast of Blades, but in recognition of their debt to Dorn every century or so they have their own private celebration on their day of Founding. Fleet-based, they gather together on the edge of the Segmentums Solar/Pacificus aboard the flagship Eternal Guardian and are mid-celebration when an enormous Apocalypse-class Capital Ship tears from the warp, flanked by several other Astartes Battle Cruisers.

These newcomers are Traitors. Their immense firepower quickly cripples the Loyalist's smaller ship (Apocalypse ships are the only battle cruisers equipped as standard with Nova Cannons) which is soon boarded and ransacked. Having taken huge casualties from the bombardment, the Guardians fight to the last man, their genestock raided, their artifacts looted, and their ship left to die in space before the Traitors turn about their fleet and head towards a not-too-distant warp phenomenon known as the Gates of Fire.

There is only one survivor, the Imperial Guardians' Master of the Forge Alexand Leccancia. Overcoming massive injuries due to already being heavily augmented by cybernetics, he survived the boarding by virtue of being trapped within a section of ship separated from the main hull by battle damage and is discovered in torpor weeks later when the Eternal Defender's distress call is finally answered by elements of three other Chapters - the Ultramarines, the Space Wolves and the Celestial Lions.

Revived, the MotF is informed of his situation, and now he is posed with a problem - what does he do with himself? He is the de facto 'owner' of what's left of his Chapter's resources, what should he do with them? Honour to his brothers demands one thing, but his duty to the Imperium demands another. Since he is already compromised by his vows to Mars and his detached sense of brotherhood that result, he confesses his concern to the Commanding officer of each of his rescuing brothers and asks their advice;

The Ultramarines recommend Duty; he is a Space Marine and whatever else happens he must serve the Emperor. Go join the Deathwatch, there's no shame in that.
The Space Wolves recommend Honour; your Chapter must be avenged or you should die in the attempt, the Emperor does not look kindly on those who forsake their vows of brotherhood.
The Celestial Lions offer him a new brotherhood and new duty as one of their own; a Chapter cannot be rebuilt from one Marine, but they have already walked that hard path after Armageddon and could make use of someone with his expertise if he has no where else to go. He can still serve the Emperor in a sensible capacity, and the Lions will hold the correct funereal ceremonies to honour the now-extinct Imperial Guardians as is proper.

Eventually, Alexand decides that he was a Imperial Guardian before he was a Techmarine and even before he was a fully fledged Astartes - he wore the gold and black of his Chapter as an initiate and scout, accepted by his brothers before he was fully sworn in as a Marine, and goes for Plan B. He suits up in what is left of his Chapters' relics (there's always a hidden stash of artifacts if you know where to look, and who knows better than the Master of the Forge?), gifts what is left to his rescuers as he doesn't expect to return for any of it, and begins hunting down the warband that took his brothers from him.

Admittedly, much of this is an excuse to write a story about a Master of the Forge in combat; I just like the idea of one stalking through the corridors of a battle ship, using his mechanical skills to set the ship to Self Destruct and then fighting his way out before it blows, ripping apart other Marines with his mechadendrites as he goes. :smalltongue:
Not yet settled on a title - I think 'Honour Before Duty' is already a story by someone, maybe 'The Imperial Guardian' has a nice ring to it.

Cheesegear

2015-09-01, 09:42 AM

The view of the Inquisition is that death now is far, far better than the ruination of the Guardsmens' souls and then death AFTER they have rebelled and dragged their Regiment, command structure, armoured corps and - potentially - the planet upon which they are stationed down with them.

As I said, everyone is a potential Lorgar.

[Story Stuff]

*Breathes in* Hnng.
Did you know that Atlas Infernal features the last Techmarine and last living Marine of the Relictors Chapter? Who chokes out a Khorne Berzerker, and is a badass who dual-wields Daemonblades and Mechadendrites and kills Grey Knights and doesn't afraid of anything?

I want to say The Last Guardian sounds cool, but for some reason it sounded familiar, so I looked it up (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Guardian), sad face.
Forge Alone sounds good, too. As in 'forge ahead', but also 'forge' as in making stuff. Double meaning! Or just semi-colon it; Forge Ahead; Forge Alone.

Wraith

2015-09-01, 10:22 AM

*Breathes in* Hnng.
Did you know that Atlas Infernal features the last Techmarine and last living Marine of the Relictors Chapter? Who chokes out a Khorne Berzerker, and is a badass who dual-wields Daemonblades and Mechadendrites and kills Grey Knights and doesn't afraid of anything?

I... did not, no. :smallannoyed:

I suppose that the difference would be, my guy a) is the star of the story, rather than being a sidekick, b) isn't a Grey Knight killing heretic and c) (hopefully) not a Marty Stu with his matched pair of silver plated daemon katanas and Bad-Ass-Trenchcoat Syndrome. He might even solve some problems by being a techmarine and not a cybernetic Samurai. :smalltongue:

I want to say The Last Guardian sounds cool, but for some reason it sounded familiar, so I looked it up (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Guardian), sad face.

I too have been to the same webpage for exactly the same reason. :smallwink:

Forge Alone sounds good, too. As in 'forge ahead', but also 'forge' as in making stuff. Double meaning! Or just semi-colon it; Forge Ahead; Forge Alone.

If I get enough situations where he can show off his tech-know how, I may just go with 'Master of the Forge', stress on Master. It's always been a title that I admired, might as well get some dramatic use out of it.

Artanis

2015-09-01, 12:48 PM

*story stuff*
Sounds pretty cool :smallbiggrin:

I can't really provide much in the way of suggestions, but a couple of (very very minor) things crossed my mind while reading that. Take this in the context of, "ooh, would this help?", rather than being some sort of nitpicky criticism. Also, feel free to ignore every word of this if it wouldn't fit:

-If you want him to fix problems by being a TECHmarine, why not have him start by fixing up those artifacts he uses, instead of just pulling them out of a hidden stash? After all, who but the Techmarine would be able to make a working set of combat gear out of damaged remains? It also shouldn't be that hard to make it believable that somebody with so much practice keeping nigh-irreplaceable Lost Tech running at the highest level could find enough intact stuff in an entire chapter's worth of salvage to make one last set of equipment :smallwink:

-If slightly changing the name is an option (which, again, it very well might not be), might I suggest Alexius? It's still an "Alex" name, and Alexius I seems like a decent figure to share a name with given the circumstances. Plus, it fits the "Astartes' names end in -us" theme :smalltongue:

Just my two centithrones of trying (probably unsuccessfully) to be helpful :smallredface:

thethird

2015-09-01, 03:55 PM

I'm planning an Eldar novel for NaNoWriMo this year (November), after having given myself the idea exactly the same time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18370512&postcount=618) last year (check the date stamp). So Cypher will say it then, if it gets written. :smallwink:

Yeah, I remember that short and really liked it, I had a NaNoWriMo prepared for last year but I got a new job at the same time and ended focusing on that. My idea didn't revolve around warhammer, I had been written a fic crossovering 40k and starcraft a while earlier, so it's not really relevant here :smallsmile:.

On the one hand, the Inquisition has learned from the Heresy.
Back in 30k, the Emperor told everyone that there was no such thing as Gods or Daemons, which is why everyone was so utterly, horribly unprepared when they were unleashed upon Calth and Terra. In 40k, it's fairly well known that daemons do exist, insofar as they are another type of monster to fight against. Space Marines treat them as just another type of xenos to purge, because they're badass and hypnotically indoctrinated enough to do it with relatively few lapses, and the Guard now has the Inquisition and the Commissariat watching over them to limit the damage.

In 40k, the forces of the Imperium know that daemons are a thing, and that they have to be fought. And that's all they need to know.

On the other hand, simply knowing about them does not protect you from them or their influence. The very nature of Chaos is insidious - spend enough time around it, soaking in the influence of the warp, and eventually it will take hold in you. Having Guardsmen fight daemons, and then sending them off to fight more daemons, and then MORE daemons, is a guarantee that they will, at some point, Fall. It's just a matter of time and the only way to prevent it is inhuman regimens of hypnotherapy and constant vigilance (as with Astartes) or death.

The view of the Inquisition is that death now is far, far better than the ruination of the Guardsmens' souls and then death AFTER they have rebelled and dragged their Regiment, command structure, armoured corps and - potentially - the planet upon which they are stationed down with them.

I may have mentioned it before, a while ago.

The Imperial Guardians Chapter of Space Marines are distantly derived from the Imperial Fists. They're not so close to their parent Legion as to be invited to the Feast of Blades, but in recognition of their debt to Dorn every century or so they have their own private celebration on their day of Founding. Fleet-based, they gather together on the edge of the Segmentums Solar/Pacificus aboard the flagship Eternal Guardian and are mid-celebration when an enormous Apocalypse-class Capital Ship tears from the warp, flanked by several other Astartes Battle Cruisers.

These newcomers are Traitors. Their immense firepower quickly cripples the Loyalist's smaller ship (Apocalypse ships are the only battle cruisers equipped as standard with Nova Cannons) which is soon boarded and ransacked. Having taken huge casualties from the bombardment, the Guardians fight to the last man, their genestock raided, their artifacts looted, and their ship left to die in space before the Traitors turn about their fleet and head towards a not-too-distant warp phenomenon known as the Gates of Fire.

There is only one survivor, the Imperial Guardians' Master of the Forge Alexand Leccancia. Overcoming massive injuries due to already being heavily augmented by cybernetics, he survived the boarding by virtue of being trapped within a section of ship separated from the main hull by battle damage and is discovered in torpor weeks later when the Eternal Defender's distress call is finally answered by elements of three other Chapters - the Ultramarines, the Space Wolves and the Celestial Lions.

Revived, the MotF is informed of his situation, and now he is posed with a problem - what does he do with himself? He is the de facto 'owner' of what's left of his Chapter's resources, what should he do with them? Honour to his brothers demands one thing, but his duty to the Imperium demands another. Since he is already compromised by his vows to Mars and his detached sense of brotherhood that result, he confesses his concern to the Commanding officer of each of his rescuing brothers and asks their advice;

The Ultramarines recommend Duty; he is a Space Marine and whatever else happens he must serve the Emperor. Go join the Deathwatch, there's no shame in that.
The Space Wolves recommend Honour; your Chapter must be avenged or you should die in the attempt, the Emperor does not look kindly on those who forsake their vows of brotherhood.
The Celestial Lions offer him a new brotherhood and new duty as one of their own; a Chapter cannot be rebuilt from one Marine, but they have already walked that hard path after Armageddon and could make use of someone with his expertise if he has no where else to go. He can still serve the Emperor in a sensible capacity, and the Lions will hold the correct funereal ceremonies to honour the now-extinct Imperial Guardians as is proper.

Eventually, Alexand decides that he was a Imperial Guardian before he was a Techmarine and even before he was a fully fledged Astartes - he wore the gold and black of his Chapter as an initiate and scout, accepted by his brothers before he was fully sworn in as a Marine, and goes for Plan B. He suits up in what is left of his Chapters' relics (there's always a hidden stash of artifacts if you know where to look, and who knows better than the Master of the Forge?), gifts what is left to his rescuers as he doesn't expect to return for any of it, and begins hunting down the warband that took his brothers from him.

Admittedly, much of this is an excuse to write a story about a Master of the Forge in combat; I just like the idea of one stalking through the corridors of a battle ship, using his mechanical skills to set the ship to Self Destruct and then fighting his way out before it blows, ripping apart other Marines with his mechadendrites as he goes. :smalltongue:
Not yet settled on a title - I think 'Honour Before Duty' is already a story by someone, maybe 'The Imperial Guardian' has a nice ring to it.

Sounds pretty cool :smallbiggrin:

I can't really provide much in the way of suggestions, but a couple of (very very minor) things crossed my mind while reading that. Take this in the context of, "ooh, would this help?", rather than being some sort of nitpicky criticism. Also, feel free to ignore every word of this if it wouldn't fit:

-If you want him to fix problems by being a TECHmarine, why not have him start by fixing up those artifacts he uses, instead of just pulling them out of a hidden stash? After all, who but the Techmarine would be able to make a working set of combat gear out of damaged remains? It also shouldn't be that hard to make it believable that somebody with so much practice keeping nigh-irreplaceable Lost Tech running at the highest level could find enough intact stuff in an entire chapter's worth of salvage to make one last set of equipment :smallwink:

-If slightly changing the name is an option (which, again, it very well might not be), might I suggest Alexius? It's still an "Alex" name, and Alexius I seems like a decent figure to share a name with given the circumstances. Plus, it fits the "Astartes' names end in -us" theme :smalltongue:

Just my two centithrones of trying (probably unsuccessfully) to be helpful :smallredface:

Wow, nice story stub

I also feel that rebuilding the stuff could be really nice adittion, and give the one man chapter feel, perhaps his helmet is taken from the now deceased chapter master, the left shoulderpad from the veteran sergeant who first taught him when he was a scout, he carries a narthecium from the apothecary that died destroying his brother's geneseed so it wouldn't fall on enemy hands, because it was the right thing to do... his chest piece is inscribed with every name from all his brothers and it's a memorial and a declaration of intentions. Etcetera, no need to go to the past for relics, there should be relics aplenty on the ship with really angry and vindictive machine spirits.

Speaking of which I think that a machine spirit gestalt could be a good companion for the lone master of the forge. It would give him someone to talk too, and it can always angry all the time, forcing the master of the forge to keep going even against the worst odds.

Wraith

2015-09-01, 04:44 PM

-If you want him to fix problems by being a TECHmarine, why not have him start by fixing up those artifacts he uses, instead of just pulling them out of a hidden stash?

Hey, you! Quit reading my brain-meats and stealing my ideas! :smallannoyed: :smallwink:

-If slightly changing the name is an option (which, again, it very well might not be), might I suggest Alexius?

I wanted to stay away from any name that sounded like Alexis - Alexis Pollux is an Imperial Fist Captain from the Horus Heresy novels. The Imperial Guardians are from a Founding that is distant, virtually estranged, from it's parent Chapter and I didn't want there to be too much of a crossover by naming characters after each other. :smallsmile:

Similarly, there's not really any such thing as a 'typical' Astartes name. Alexius and similar Roman-esque names are common in the Segmentum Solar and throughout Ultramar, but nothing like those used by the White Scars (Asian Steppe) or Salamanders (Afrikaan). Fleet-based Chapters who recruit from multiple worlds often have a broad mix of names throughout, if they don't also have a tradition of renaming their Marines upon implantation.

Speaking of which I think that a machine spirit gestalt could be a good companion for the lone master of the forge. It would give him someone to talk too, and it can always angry all the time, forcing the master of the forge to keep going even against the worst odds.

I fear it might be tinfoil hat time, if you're going to be in there too. :smallbiggrin:

Voidhawk

2015-09-02, 02:20 AM

Very cool story stub there, I would totally read a trilogy about a Master of the Forge wandering around searching for vengeance on the traitors who destroyed his chapter. Have you planned out who the traitors were yet? Iron Warriors would be the obvious choice: he can engage in tech-battles with at least one Warpsmith, and you can highlight how "hacking" pieces of Dark Age of Technology gear is nothing like hacking a computer, even less so when they're possessed by daemons.

The only piece of feedback I can really give, is have you thought about changing the chapter's name? Imperial Guardians just sounds so close to Imperial Guard. Astral Gaurdians perhaps, something like that?

Cheesegear

2015-09-02, 03:49 AM

I suppose that the difference would be, my guy a) is the star of the story, rather than being a sidekick, b) isn't a Grey Knight killing heretic and c) (hopefully) not a Marty Stu with his matched pair of silver plated daemon katanas and Bad-Ass-Trenchcoat Syndrome. He might even solve some problems by being a techmarine and not a cybernetic Samurai. :smalltongue:

a) Fair point.
b) Grey Knights started it. The Grey Knights blew up the Relictors' homeworld for storing Daemon weapons, y'know, for using the Enemy's weapons to also fight the Enemy. Y'know, like Grey Knights do. :smallwink: Ultimately, he Levels Up in the middle of the story grabbing two Daemon Weapons - using his knowledge as a Techmarine for a Chapter that specialises in finding and locating Daemon weapons, he manages to snag the two best weapons on the rack - and fighting Grey Knights.
c) He's not so much a Marty Stu, as he is the 'action character'. Since Atlas Infernal is nominally about an Inquisition and his Warband, having a Space Marine in the mix lets the author write really cool action scenes, that he wouldn't be able to otherwise write, if he was only writing about humans. The Techmarine is used sparingly, partly because he's so good at doing what he does. Because he's used sparingly, IMO, he becomes that much cooler when he does get used. Essentially it's a case of Space Marine-on-Space Marine combat, without him in the book, Inquisitor Czevak would have just spent the entire book running away from superior enemies - not that he doesn't also do that.

Of course, why not just not have Space Marines as the primary antagonists? ...Well, Czevak is nominally pitted against Ahriman. Ahriman is a Space Marine. There's going to be Space Marines as the bad guys. When Czevak has to break into the Inquisition base to steal stuff (because he's a Radical Xeno-loving outlaw), his opponents are Grey Knights, because that makes sense. Who is the only one in the party that can fight Grey Knights and not die immediately? Correct. Another Space Marine.

If I get enough situations where he can show off his tech-know how, I may just go with 'Master of the Forge', stress on Master. It's always been a title that I admired, might as well get some dramatic use out of it.

"A Master without an Apprentice is a Master of nothing." - Darth Sidious :smalltongue:

I'm trying to find the word of what that is, like, the opposite of 'Ronin', a Master without any followers. In fact, Master of Nothing sounds good, too.

Very cool story stub there, I would totally read a trilogy about a Master of the Forge wandering around searching for vengeance on the traitors who destroyed his chapter.

As opposed to the Techmarine in Atlas Infernal who wants revenge on the Grey Knights who destroyed his Chapter.

...I just like AI a lot.

Imperial Guardians just sounds so close to Imperial Guard. Astral Gaurdians perhaps, something like that?

QFT.

Wraith

2015-09-02, 10:02 AM

Have you planned out who the traitors were yet? Iron Warriors would be the obvious choice: he can engage in tech-battles with at least one Warpsmith, and you can highlight how "hacking" pieces of Dark Age of Technology gear is nothing like hacking a computer, even less so when they're possessed by daemons.

Probably a warband of generic renegades, but led by a genuine Heresy-Era Iron Warrior who is disdainful of the petty little things that the modern Imperium calls Space Marines. An important theme I have in mind is Alexand's choice between Honour and Duty, and what it means to be a Battle Brother to a thousand other Battle Brothers, rather than just the walking weapon that that mortals see him as or the distant 'cousin' that other Chapters see. And who knows more about brotherhood than one who walked under the banner of a Primarch?

"Your brothers? Your Brothers!? What do you know of Brotherhood!?! *I* was Legiones Astartes! I marched the face of a hundred worlds beside tens of thousands of my kin, all with the hand of our father upon our shoulder! What do you and your weak blooded, pitiful Imperium know of brotherhood, 'Space Marine'!?!

The only piece of feedback I can really give, is have you thought about changing the chapter's name? Imperial Guardians just sounds so close to Imperial Guard. Astral Gaurdians perhaps, something like that?

I see what you mean, but I had given it a little bit of thought to justify it. On the one hand, there's no such thing as the Imperial Guard any more - it's the Astra Militarum. :smalltongue: On the other, the combination of 'Imperial' and 'Guardian' is intended as a reminder - he's not just some renegade going off on his own private war out of spite; he is still Loyalist, and despite the parallels with his own private desires, he is still hunting genuine enemies of the Imperium, and if he doesn't do it then others will probably die doing it for him. He's proactively preventing the next raid, sort of thing.

A synonym might work, if I can find one that I like and is suitably dignified. I nearly went with 'the Imperial Custodians' before I realised what I was doing, whereas 'the Imperial Chaperones' is technically correct but a little bit.... off. :smallbiggrin:

b) Grey Knights started it.

There is a certain argument that, if you find yourself one day picking up Daemon Weapons and stabbing the faces of any kind of Loyalist Space Marines - Grey Knights especially - then they were probably on to something in the first place... :smallwink:

c) He's not so much a Marty Stu, as he is the 'action character'.

Fair enough. Atlas Infernal has been on my list of things to pick up for quite some time, but it's surprisingly difficult to find a decent copy for a sensible price. Maybe I'm just being picky, or maybe there really is a black market for original, pre-Heresy Stamp 40k novels that I have inadvertently stumbled across. :smalltongue:

Of course, why not just not have Space Marines as the primary antagonists? ...Well, Czevak is nominally pitted against Ahriman. Ahriman is a Space Marine. There's going to be Space Marines as the bad guys. When Czevak has to break into the Inquisition base to steal stuff (because he's a Radical Xeno-loving outlaw), his opponents are Grey Knights, because that makes sense.

Again, full disclosure that I haven't read the book so I might get it all wrong. But, I generally find that in any 40k story where the protagonists are humans, adding Space Marines to the mix in any way tends to warp the narrative into needing more Space Marines, which isn't necessarily a good thing.
For example, who else could be guarding an Inquisitorial base? Why not Storm Troopers? They're still very scary, but they're still humans so Czevak has a chance to beat them himself, particularly if he bluffs them with his Rosette into believing that he isn't Radical. Similarly, Ahriman is famous for sponsoring a vast network of human cults across the Imperium, why not have Czevak fight or sneak his way through them until he finds only Ahriman at the top, overseeing things?
You have your 'star' antagonist character making an appearance, you have the shock value of realising just how badly outmatched Czevak is, but he's not so irrevocably outmatched that there couldn't be some way out of it that isn't '"Ciaphas Cain duels a Khorne Berzerker one-on-one" levels of silly.
Eisenhorn did it, for example - his weapons and psychic abilities outmatched his opponent's, he brought significant backup, he used the scenery to his advantage and he tricked the opponent into defeating himself, but it still took a huge amount of effort to do so. At no point, however, did the protagonist of the book sit back and cower while the superhumans stole the spotlight, y'know?

I'm trying to find the word of what that is, like, the opposite of 'Ronin', a Master without any followers. In fact, Master of Nothing sounds good, too.

"A leader without followers is just a guy going for a walk". :smalltongue: I don't think there is an English word for a leader without followers; it more or less defies the definition of 'leader'.
The closest that I could think of for an Anglicised equivalent of Ronin in probably be some kind of disgraced Knight, which doesn't seem to have a specific term and isn't quite the same thing as a Knight-Errant. The latter tends to suggest a more benevolent attitude than actual Ronin were known for and that they are still operating within some sort of honourable code. This would be appropriate for a lone Space Marine, but I can't use it for obvious reasons.

I could not, however, find any kind of 'hierarchy' for Knights-Errant; there's no such thing as a Baron-Errant for example. They'd be known as some kind of mercenary captain perhaps, but again a mercenary without a company is just a mercenary.
Hmm, let's see; people who want to lead but won't be followed.... A Cassandric - or simply false - prophet? Not really what I'm looking for. :smallconfused:

'Master of Aught' has a certain ring to it, I must admit. I also kinda like "Unto Death", as it echoes the famous Astartes oath to serve until they die, though I'll have to avoid meeting any Dreadnoughts if I don't want to spoil it. :smallbiggrin:

comicshorse

2015-09-02, 10:44 AM

'And I, the last, go forth companionless '

http://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/text/tennyson-passing-of-arthur

Artanis

2015-09-02, 12:27 PM

I see what you mean, but I had given it a little bit of thought to justify it. On the one hand, there's no such thing as the Imperial Guard any more - it's the Astra Militarum. :smalltongue: On the other, the combination of 'Imperial' and 'Guardian' is intended as a reminder - he's not just some renegade going off on his own private war out of spite; he is still Loyalist, and despite the parallels with his own private desires, he is still hunting genuine enemies of the Imperium, and if he doesn't do it then others will probably die doing it for him. He's proactively preventing the next raid, sort of thing.

A synonym might work, if I can find one that I like and is suitably dignified. I nearly went with 'the Imperial Custodians' before I realised what I was doing, whereas 'the Imperial Chaperones' is technically correct but a little bit.... off. :smallbiggrin:
Hmm...

(Commence thinking out loud)

For the "guardian" part, perhaps a word based off of "vigil"? It's pretty recognizable to the general population as referring to standing watch, so you can make something important-sounding without confusing everybody. So maybe make "Vigilant" part of the name. Or "Vigilia" if you want something more Latin-sounding*.

For the "imperial" part of the name, WH40K already has enough "Imperialis"-es than you can shake a las-stick at, so that part wouldn't be as hard.

So maybe "Vigilia Imperialis", or "Emperor's Vigilants", or something along those lines?

(Finish thinking out loud)

...eh, just a thought :smallredface:

*Vigilia translates from Latin as "watch, vigil, wakefulness, vigilance, guard, sleeplessness". So in more useful terms vigilia is stuff like staying awake all night to stand guard so that your comrades don't get stabbed to death in their sleep. Being that one who volunteers for the s*** job, not just because somebody has to do so, but also because he wants to personally make d*** sure that it gets done right, sounds fairly close to how you describe as this guy's mission.

Cheesegear

2015-09-02, 07:11 PM

I see what you mean, but I had given it a little bit of thought to justify it. On the one hand, there's no such thing as the Imperial Guard any more - it's the Astra Militarum. :smalltongue:

You know how you shouldn't judge a book by it's cover?
First sentence in the book; "The Astra Militarum, also known as the Imperial Guard..." - Page 6.

The Codex almost never says 'Astra Militarum' ever again. The Codex, with the exception of the front cover, near-exclusively refers to them as Imperial Guard, and proves that people on the Internet didn't even read the Codex, just cried about the front cover.

On the other, the combination of 'Imperial' and 'Guardian' is intended as a reminder

Synonyms for 'Guardian'...Baby-Sitter :smalltongue:.
Okay seriously; Defender, Keeper, Paladin (!), Sentinel, Vigilante, Warden

I like at least two of those things.

Again, full disclosure that I haven't read the book so I might get it all wrong. But, I generally find that in any 40k story where the protagonists are humans, adding Space Marines to the mix in any way tends to warp the narrative into needing more Space Marines, which isn't necessarily a good thing.

Again, Czevak does the brain stuff. The Techmarine does the muscle stuff. It works.

'Master of Aught' has a certain ring to it, I must admit. I also kinda like "Unto Death", as it echoes the famous Astartes oath to serve until they die, though I'll have to avoid meeting any Dreadnoughts if I don't want to spoil it. :smallbiggrin:

Which one?

What is your life?
My honour is my life.
What is your fate?
My duty is my fate.
What is your fear?
My fear is to fail.
What is your reward?
My salvation is my reward.
What is your craft?
My craft is death.
What is your pledge?
My pledge is eternal service.

"My Honour is my Life." Space Wolves say go fight.
"My Duty is my Fate." Ultramarines say join the Deathwatch. The Deathwatch always needs more specialists (i.e; Techmarines), because specialists are valuable resources and most Chapters rarely give them up willingly, especially if there's a chance that they wont come back.

It sure would be nice to have a Chaplain around who could help a Marine adrift work through his moral problems.

"My craft is death." ...That would make a Master of the Forge a... Master of Death...Well, I like it. :smallamused:

Or, I think you're thinking of...

What is your Duty? To serve Emperor's Will.
What is Emperor's Will? That we fight and die.
What is Death? It is our duty.
What is your Duty? [repeat]

Space Wolves are pretty clear on the matter. Do what the Emperor tells you to do.

thethird

2015-09-03, 02:24 PM

I started Atlas Infernal recently, it's pretty good.

Since we are talking about fan fiction and stuff anything cool on deathwatch? I really like deathwatch.

Blackhawk748

2015-09-03, 04:01 PM

Anyone here read Faith and Fire? I've heard its good, but id like to hear that from people i can trust, and since i cant find any ill ask you lot :smalltongue:

Drasius

2015-09-03, 04:18 PM

Yep. 'Twas OK, nothing exceptional, nothing terrible. If you like Sisters, you'll like the book, if you like 40k but are neutral towards SoB, you'll probably still like it and if you don't like Sisters, well, why are you looking at picking this up anyway?

I'd give it a B-, better than average, with a couple of cool things, but nothing that would mean it makes my top 10 books of 40k list.

Blackhawk748

2015-09-03, 04:29 PM

Grim Portent

2015-09-03, 05:22 PM

I'm going to echo Drasius on this one, Faith and Fire is okay, but not great.

It's worth reading but I wouldn't say it's stuck with me the way stuff like ADBs Night Lords have.

Cheesegear

2015-09-03, 06:25 PM

Anyone here read Faith and Fire? I've heard its good, but id like to hear that from people i can trust, and since i cant find any ill ask you lot :smalltongue:

I don't remember a single thing about F&F, not one. But I do remember Red & Black (an audio drama), but not really, 'cause all's I remember is the end of it;
"No AIs. Means; No. AIs." (paraphrased).

It's worth reading but I wouldn't say it's stuck with me the way stuff like ADBs Night Lords have.

That's the bar we set, is it?

"When I think of strong, female characters, I think of Ellen Ripley and Sarah Connor." Well, with the bar set that high, there'll never be any ever again. :smalltongue:

Blackhawk748

2015-09-03, 07:36 PM

That reminds me, i need to read Daemonifuge

Drasius

2015-09-03, 10:33 PM

Yes. Yes you do.

Cheesegear

2015-09-05, 06:43 AM

Back onto languages, there's another specific instance that I can recall; In which Corswain - a Dark Angel - says 40K's first 'Yo mama' insult to Sevatar, in Nostroman, and not in Gothic.

Blackhawk748

2015-09-05, 09:22 AM

Back onto languages, there's another specific instance that I can recall; In which Corswain - a Dark Angel - says 40K's first 'Yo mama' insult to Sevatar, in Nostroman, and not in Gothic.

.....wait seriously??? BWAHAHAHAHA

comicshorse

2015-09-05, 09:38 AM

'Yo mama so fat she could give birth to you after the treatments to make you a Space Marine '

Artanis

2015-09-05, 11:58 AM

One thing about the language for me is that puns are impossible to translate. If you ever see any sort of pronunciation-based shenanigans, whether it be a pun or a portmanteau, or whatever, it's either the characters speaking English/Pseudo-Latin or GW somehow using translation techniques that are way the hell beyond the capabilities of anybody here in M3.

"Heretek" immediately springs to mind as an example: it only remotely works because "tech" sounds like the "-tic" in "heretic". So that means that either GW got reaaaaally lucky and stumbled on a Space Gothic term that works out roughly the same in both languages, or 40K-ese really is English/Pseudo-Latin.

And that's just off the top of my head. Surely people who have read more of the books than me have encountered more puns/portmanteaus/etc. somewhere.

LeSwordfish

2015-09-05, 12:40 PM

I'm a little disappointed that there is already a "Yo Mamma" joke in 40K - I was hoping my stealthy Titus Andronicus reference would be the first.

CHIRON
Thou hast undone our mother.
AARON
Villain, I have done thy mother.

Wraith

2015-09-05, 03:21 PM

It's not much of a joke in all fairness - Night Haunter and The Lion are having a formall meeting off to one side while their respective #1 and #2 Captains chat amongst themselves, and Corswain quite bluntly says "Hey, I've heard of you! Your mother ****'s animals, right?".

Sevatar actually thinks it's quite funny, because while Corswain thinks he's being really big and clever, actually his pronunciation sucks so it comes off as mangled and childish.

LeSwordfish

2015-09-05, 03:25 PM

My understanding of Nostromon is that "Your mother cavorts with goats" is one of the more polite sentences you can put together.

Cheesegear

2015-09-05, 07:25 PM

My understanding of Nostromon is that "Your mother cavorts with goats" is one of the more polite sentences you can put together.

On Nostromo, there is no greater sign of respect than insulting a man to his face (although I'm pretty sure I'm making that up, since I can't seem to Google up a source, or, it's very, very old fluff).

IIRC (I probably don't), Sevatar even lets Corswain live when the fight begins - or at least Sevatar kills Corswain last, like I said, I don't remember.

EDIT: More Languages!
IRL, GrimDark Australia Cretacia, is declared 'uninhabited' by the Flesh Tearers, because the natives don't speak Gothic.

Cheesegear

2015-09-07, 09:26 PM

Shut up and take my money! (http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/ahriman-unchanged-paperback.html)

Posted from phone.

thethird

2015-09-13, 02:08 PM

Shut up and take my money! (http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/ahriman-unchanged-paperback.html)

Posted from phone.

Those are great news! I actually started the saga this past thursday. So yay!

BTW as I just started this, is there any point where it goes into the whole rubric event in more or less detail? Like the thousand sons getting to the planet of sorcerers mutation runing rampant and Ahriman saying nope!

Saambell

2015-09-15, 12:54 PM

So this is a slight mix of Tabletop and Fluff, but here goes.

How uniform are Space Marine Chapters?
As in do successor chapters tend to look like their parent chapter or do they tend to try to make their own identity?
Also, how often does a successor chapter end up having similarities to a different chapter?
Does the world they recruit from have some baring over what sort of style the chapter ends up adopting?
To get to the meat of my question, could a White Scars successor chapter end up visually looking like Space Wolves? Recruiting from savage worlds, with a mix of Mongol, Hun, and Viking feel? The reason is I'm re-purposing some sniper wolf scouts to space marine scouts and am feeling a White Scars successor chapter would make most sense for their appearance.

What are some of the most different successor chapters from their parent chapter? How different is the variety of all the successor chapters?

Squark

2015-09-15, 01:10 PM

So this is a slight mix of Tabletop and Fluff, but here goes.

How uniform are Space Marine Chapters?
As in do successor chapters tend to look like their parent chapter or do they tend to try to make their own identity? Varies wildly. Some try to imitate their parent chapter as close as possibly, while others... don't.
Also, how often does a successor chapter end up having similarities to a different chapter? Generally at least some similarities.
Does the world they recruit from have some baring over what sort of style the chapter ends up adopting? I believe the second Ultramarines novel has the Ultramarine's Chaplain (Or maybe it's one of the Veteran Sergeants) remark that the unforgiving world the Mortifactors recruit from might be why they've diverged from the Ultramarines
To get to the meat of my question, could a White Scars successor chapter end up visually looking like Space Wolves? Recruiting from savage worlds, with a mix of Mongol, Hun, and Viking feel? The reason is I'm re-purposing some sniper wolf scouts to space marine scouts and am feeling a White Scars successor chapter would make most sense for their appearance.

What are some of the most different successor chapters from their parent chapter? How different is the variety of all the successor chapters?

As far as how different successors have gotten...

-Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and White Scars successor chapters have no distinct organization and frequently diverge significantly from their parent chapter.
-The Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Imperial Fists all have traditions that bind their sucessor chapters together, ensuring a more homogeneous set of traditions. Some divergence still occurs, though.
-The Ultramarines have a large number of successor chapters who idolize the codex, but by virtue of sheer number of sucessor chapters, probably also have the most who are nothing like them.
-The Salamanders and Space Wolves both have no known successor chapters. Any unknown Salamnders sucessor chapters likely bear little resemblance to their progenitors, while lost companies of Space Wolves may differ depending on why they were lost (Those that left due to disagreement with the Great Wolf are likely more different than those that were just cut off from reinforcement).