+1 ASIs/Odd Scores are Underpowered

[Torched Forever]

Thanks to the way modifiers work, the +1 in two abilities from ASIs and having odd stats in general are strictly suboptimal. Especially in a system with bounded accuracy this can have negative effects. There are a couple reasons why so I think I should start at the logical beginning, character creation.

If your group uses the point buy method of character creation then avoid odd ability scores. They cost an additional point (or two for a 15) and provide no enhancement beyond (except carrying capacity, but most groups pretty much ignore that) the lower score. Their only benefit is synergy with racial features, half-feats, and the +1 in two ASI. Now this is where part of the problem develops, why make two odd scores and bump them both with an ASI when you could make one higher to reach the modifier and the other lower. You actually gain power at no cost because one ASI will still get you to where you want to be. Example below
Before 1 ASI Later
11(+0) & 11(+0) 12(+1) & 12(+1)
12(+1) & 10(+0) 12(+1) & 12(+1)

As you keep playing, any +1 is strictly suboptimal unless you have odd ability scores. Half-feats can even become traps if your score is even because they provide no benefit unless you spend another ASI. One ASI is a long timer period and it puts you behind the rest of the group. The whole problem is really illustrated by the example. While splitting bonuses will catch up, it falls behind for a while. Not to mention, if by your last ASI you have even scores, then splitting would be a terrible idea.

[ChubbyRain]

If you are starting at level 4+ you can work the math on ASI in your favor by grabbing odd AS.

A lot of characters I play never raise Dex or Con above 14 (clerics) so I can save 4 points at creation by giving them a 13 in each and then bumping them at level 4.

In actual play you don't really need a cleric to have wis 18 till level 8 so its fine to keep a 16 in levels 1 - 7.

That being said, I would love to either get away from ability scores via skill based system or by going directly to modifiers. Or some other way of doing it, ability scores are out dated I think.

[burninatortrog]

I'm not seeing the negative effects?

[Icewraith]

If you are starting at level 4+ you can work the math on ASI in your favor by grabbing odd AS.

A lot of characters I play never raise Dex or Con above 14 (clerics) so I can save 4 points at creation by giving them a 13 in each and then bumping them at level 4.

In actual play you don't really need a cleric to have wis 18 till level 8 so its fine to keep a 16 in levels 1 - 7.

That being said, I would love to either get away from ability scores via skill based system or by going directly to modifiers. Or some other way of doing it, ability scores are out dated I think.

I'd rather start at 13 con, 14 dex, and pick up Resilient: Con, especially on a cleric (IIRC are not proficient in Con).

However, the +1/+1 is a lot more useful in games where people roll their stats, which the game still needs to support. You can also use it for races that get dual +2s- mountain dwarf's+2 str/+2 con for instance. Blow the points for two 15s and you'll start 17/17, one +1/+1 ASI will get you to 18/18. The guy who uses 15 in the +1 stat and 14 in the +2 is at 18/16, you're at 18/18 after one ASI.

[Torched Forever]

The switch from +1 to +2 at 13-14 results in that anomaly.

As for the Mountain Dwarf, its a matter of focusing two scores or three. The 15 & 15 costs 2/3 of your points but does allow +4 in two at 4th level. However, a rounded character would benefit more from 14 & 14 base, putting the extra points in the third/fourth score, and hitting the +4s one ASI latter with a higher score in other stats.

Ice wraith does have a point about rolling. The three value combination produces an even chance of odd and even. However, a lot of races and several good feats provide a +1 bonus that can offset them.

In the end character creation does ignore a lot of the flaws, but it is still optimal to raise two/three scores with +2s instead of distributed +1s thanks to the rounding (A problem that can't be fixed unless modifiers don't divide).

[CantigThimble]

I don't see why this is a problem, it's an option that will matter for games with standard array, random rolls, or people that build characters non-optimally and won't matter for games with point buy and optimization. Is there anything about the way it works now that you think can or should be fixed?

[ChubbyRain]

I'd rather start at 13 con, 14 dex, and pick up Resilient: Con, especially on a cleric (IIRC are not proficient in Con).

However, the +1/+1 is a lot more useful in games where people roll their stats, which the game still needs to support. You can also use it for races that get dual +2s- mountain dwarf's+2 str/+2 con for instance. Blow the points for two 15s and you'll start 17/17, one +1/+1 ASI will get you to 18/18. The guy who uses 15 in the +1 stat and 14 in the +2 is at 18/16, you're at 18/18 after one ASI.

It really depends on my race/class combo to be honest.

Starting at level 4 for a Water Genasi (Entertainer Background, Knowledge Domain) I would probably do something like...

Level 1
Strength: 8
Dexterity: 13
Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 12
Wisdom: 16
Charisma: 13

Level 4 = +1 Dex/+1Cha

Skills
Acrobatics: 4
Arcana: 5
Religion: 5
Insight: 5
Performance: 4
Persuasion: 4

Yeah... Those initial 13's help round out your character in other ability scores and make things fun.

[Zilzmaer]

I don't see why this is a problem, it's an option that will matter for games with standard array, random rolls, or people that build characters non-optimally and won't matter for games with point buy and optimization. Is there anything about the way it works now that you think can or should be fixed?

This. Also, we've known odd scores were weak for multiple editions, now; I think all the way since 1st ed.

[Susano-wo]

It all depends on your build. Using ASI for +1 to two stats can come in handy if, say, two stats are bought at 15.
For instance, I have a Bugbear(custom race, of course :P) EK Fighter that I'm playing in a PBP, and his stats after racial mods are:
STR:17(+2 racial mod)
DEX:10(+1 racial mod)
CON:15
INT:14
WIS:9
CHA:8

Next level is lvl 4, and I'm going to either use resilience to put WIS to 10 and gain proficiency with its save, or use the ASI to get +1STR, +1CON. 3rd ASI can go to pumping my STR to 20, unless I want a feat instead.


If I avoided odds, I would have ended up with 16/14/14/14/9/8, which is a build I definitely thought of. But it would take 4 ASI/feats to get me to 20STR/16CON/10WIS+save prof, instead of 3. avoiding odds may get me a net+1 more to my stat mods for rolls, but at the expense of focusing on power. With my current build I can start focusing on feats to enhance my combat abilities at12th lvl instead of 14th, and will always be up 1 feat.

Just to make it clear, though I think the avoiding odds stat buy method would have worked fine in my case, but so did the method I chose

So neither the half feats or +1/+1 ASI are useless, it just all depends on your build. (and in fact, if you know you will take a half feat, you can plan on that to make that stat odd numbered.)

[Susano-wo]

And yeah, unless you plan on improving them, odd scores have been a waste since 3rd ed (ok, with the tier based blanket+1s 4th gives, it might be marginally useful to have an odd, but not a good use of your point buy unless you don't have any other options). 2nd ed (and earlier I believe)at least had stat checks be rolling under your score on a d20, as well as having bonuses for high stats be more irregular, so an odd stat could be useful, depending on the stat and number involved

[eastmabl]

This. Also, we've known odd scores were weak for multiple editions, now; I think all the way since 1st ed.

I feel like odd ability scores is even weaker in 5e than previous editions. You don't have any monsters/spells which are damaging your ability scores.

When I would suffer 3 Con damage from poison in earlier editions, at least my 15 would go down to a 12 and I wouldn't have so much of a penalty.

[ChubbyRain]

A way to fix this issue of odd ability scores...

Have two sets of modifiers. We shall call them General Modifiers and Skill modifiers.

General Modifier are what we know of already.

Skill modifiers happen like this.

Names can change.

8 = -1
9 = 0
10 = 0
11 = +1
12 = +1
13 = +2
14 = +2
15 = +3

And so on...

General Modifiers applied to everything but skills. Skill modifiers apply to skills.

So having a higher score is better generally, it won't make much of a difference on skills.

[Susano-wo]

A way to fix this issue of odd ability scores...

Have two sets of modifiers. We shall call them General Modifiers and Skill modifiers.

General Modifier are what we know of already.

Skill modifiers happen like this.

Names can change.

8 = -1
9 = 0
10 = 0
11 = +1
12 = +1
13 = +2
14 = +2
15 = +3

And so on...

General Modifiers applied to everything but skills. Skill modifiers apply to skills.

So having a higher score is better generally, it won't make much of a difference on skills.

I like that idea. I'm a big fan of making as many choices viable as possible, and this makes those odd numbers do some real good while still wanting to have even scores in your core areas especially.

[D.U.P.A.]

Odd score from Strength is still somewhat usable, at least if tracking encumberance, and having 15 Str also allows you to use heavier armor and extends your jump to exact 3 squares.