Leech Ghost Skill and early entries

[Uncle Pine]

I think I noticed something nifty while looking for tattoo-related spells for another thread.
From Ghostwalk's Web Enhancement:

Leech Ghost Skill

(Ghostwalk)

Necromancy [Ectomancy]
Level: Sorcerer 5, Wizard 5,
Components: V, S, M,
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Touch (see text)
Target: Ghost touched
Duration: 1 day/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You bind the ectoplasmic form of the target ghost onto another creature (hereafter called the "bearer").
The ghost clings to the bearer's back or chest in the form of a tattoo for the duration of the spell.
Leech ghost skill binds only the ghost, not any of its equipment.
While this ghostly tattoo is in place, the bearer may use the ghost's skill ranks instead of his own as desired, regardless of the nature of the skill.
For example, a bearer wearing a ghost rogue/wizard tattoo could use the ghost's ranks in Climb, Hide, Knowledge, Spellcraft, or any of the ghost's other skills (including class-exclusive skills that the bearer does not possess) if they exceed his own.
He still uses his own ability modifiers for making skill checks.
The bearer does not have access to any of the ghost's other abilities or to any knowledge that is not related to skills (such as bardic knowledge, class abilities, ghost powers, memories, racial bonuses, and so on), nor does he gain the ability to speak or understand any languages that the ghost knows.
The ghost cannot be attacked or harmed while bound to the target.
The ghost remains completely aware of its surroundings, though it cannot speak or use any abilities (including mental communication).
When the spell ends, the ghost is immediately freed and appears in an area adjacent to the bearer.
If the bearer is killed by any means (even disintegrate or some other effect that destroys his body), the ghost is immediately freed and appears in the bearer's square.
When it appears, the ghost has all the abilities it had at the time of the binding (such as prepared spells or available spell slots, uses of turn undead, and so on).
This spell was invented by members of the Piran Sedestadel at the behest of the Yisa-khardomas, who sought a way to punish criminal ghosts and still let them contribute to life in the city.
Material Component: A silver needle and a vial of acid, together worth 100 gp.
So, I guess this was published as a mean to allow early entry in PrCs that require high ranks in some skills by spending 2.350 gp (5*9*50+100) for a single use, use-activated item of Leech Ghost Skill, right?
Does the trick actually work? Why isn't it mentioned more often?

[Jack_Simth]

So, I guess this was published as a mean to allow early entry in PrCs that require high ranks in some skills by spending 2.350 gp (5*9*50+100) for a single use, use-activated item of Leech Ghost Skill, right?
Does the trick actually work? Why isn't it mentioned more often?
Couple of reasons.
1) 3.0 (most tables shy away from 3.0 material in a 3.5 or Pathfinder game)
2) Web enhancement (which are notoriously less well accepted, and often seem to not be playtested)
3) Campaign-specific (Ghostwalk is a campaign setting, not a standard supplement)
4) You have to find a ghost with the skill you want (not a given), and force it to fail a save (likewise)
5) Rarity (most people do not play Ghostwalk, so the content isn't overly well known)

[Uncle Pine]

Couple of reasons.
1) 3.0 (most tables shy away from 3.0 material in a 3.5 or Pathfinder game)
2) Web enhancement (which are notoriously less well accepted, and often seem to not be playtested)
3) Campaign-specific (Ghostwalk is a campaign setting, not a standard supplement)
4) You have to find a ghost with the skill you want (not a given), and force it to fail a save (likewise)
5) Rarity (most people do not play Ghostwalk, so the content isn't overly well known)

Assume a spherical ghost and a frictionless environment (like most early entries do), i.e. a powerful organization purposely gather volunteer ghosts to fuel Leech Ghost Skill castings to train better recruits: can you use the ghost ranks (pun not intended) for early entries?

[Jack_Simth]

Assume a spherical ghost and a frictionless environment (like most early entries do), i.e. a powerful organization purposely gather volunteer ghosts to fuel Leech Ghost Skill castings to train better recruits: can you use the ghost ranks (pun not intended) for early entries?
Well, that depends.

If you're using 3.0 rules, then most of the PrC benefits go away when the skill ranks do. You'll need to be bound to that ghost until you have the ranks legitimately (this is spelled out in the 3.0 DMG Prestige Class header).

If you're using 3.5 rules, then it depends:
The 3.5 DMG does not have the segment that the 3.0 DMG had about losing requirements. It was removed from the DMG in the 3.0 to 3.5 transition.
Two of the earliest 3.5 books (Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane) include in their PrC headers essentially the same blurb that was in the PrC header in the 3.0 DMG.
There's essentially three ways to look at this in 3.5:
1) Being a Core book, the DMG is the primary source regarding PrC requirements, and the blurbs in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane are editing errors that carry no rules weight.
2) The blurbs in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane, being the later source when compared to the DMG, apply to all PrC's.
3) The blurbs in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane apply only to PrCs found in their respective sources.

If 1 is considered correct at your table, then this works just fine as an early entry trick. As soon as you have the first level of the PrC, you're golden and can let the ghost move on to the next recruit.
If 2 is considered correct at your table, then you are going to need to stay bound to said ghost until you have the ranks legitimately.
If 3 is considered correct at your table, then you are going to need to watch where your PrC's come from to determine whether or not this works.

Some people on these forums hold to position 1, some to position 2, some to position 3. What matters is which position your DM holds, as the DM is the arbitrator of what's valid at your gaming table.

[Uncle Pine]

Well, that depends.

If you're using 3.0 rules, then most of the PrC benefits go away when the skill ranks do. You'll need to be bound to that ghost until you have the ranks legitimately (this is spelled out in the 3.0 DMG Prestige Class header).

If you're using 3.5 rules, then it depends:
The 3.5 DMG does not have the segment that the 3.0 DMG had about losing requirements. It was removed from the DMG in the 3.0 to 3.5 transition.
Two of the earliest 3.5 books (Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane) include in their PrC headers essentially the same blurb that was in the PrC header in the 3.0 DMG.
There's essentially three ways to look at this in 3.5:
1) Being a Core book, the DMG is the primary source regarding PrC requirements, and the blurbs in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane are editing errors that carry no rules weight.
2) The blurbs in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane, being the later source when compared to the DMG, apply to all PrC's.
3) The blurbs in Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane apply only to PrCs found in their respective sources.

If 1 is considered correct at your table, then this works just fine as an early entry trick. As soon as you have the first level of the PrC, you're golden and can let the ghost move on to the next recruit.
If 2 is considered correct at your table, then you are going to need to stay bound to said ghost until you have the ranks legitimately.
If 3 is considered correct at your table, then you are going to need to watch where your PrC's come from to determine whether or not this works.

Some people on these forums hold to position 1, some to position 2, some to position 3. What matters is which position your DM holds, as the DM is the arbitrator of what's valid at your gaming table.

Great. That was my idea as well, except that I forgot that Ghostwalk is a 3.0 supplement (although unupdated). Thanks!

[Saintheart]

Couple of reasons.
1) 3.0 (most tables shy away from 3.0 material in a 3.5 or Pathfinder game)
2) Web enhancement (which are notoriously less well accepted, and often seem to not be playtested)
3) Campaign-specific (Ghostwalk is a campaign setting, not a standard supplement)
4) You have to find a ghost with the skill you want (not a given), and force it to fail a save (likewise)
5) Rarity (most people do not play Ghostwalk, so the content isn't overly well known)

6) Skill ranks are usually capped at level +3. Divine Insight is a Cleric 2 spell that allows you to instantly add the skill modifier of a 12th level character (max +15) to your own skill check (which, if you're casting as a 10th level character, is going to be at a rough +13 already) as an insight bonus. Compare that with a spell that only comes online at 9th level, has a Will saving throw against another target, and confines you to the skill checks of its target which could be awesome in some areas but sucky in others.

However, one aspect of it might be capable of abuse: if you can make this spell work on a willing target and then bind it to something suitably squishy and easily killable, the target ghost can become a source of endless spells: when its bearer dies or the spell ends, "the ghost has all the abilities it had at the time of the binding (such as prepared spells or available spell slots, uses of turn undead, and so on)."

Arguably, then, it instantly recovers all spells it cast while piggybacking its target. I realise the spell tells us that the ghost can't use any of its abilities while leeching its target, but a Contingent Spell in place on the ghost might get around that restriction since the ghost wouldn't be casting the spell as such -- it'd be a handy way to get around the inevitable gp loss since the Contingent Spell would re-form on the ghost when the spell ended. Indeed there's nothing to stop you leeching all these ghosts on yourself and thereby creating permanent Contingent Spell platforms if this interpretation is taken, since wearing these ghosts doesn't seem to do anything awful to the person bearing them. Indeed if the ghost is willing and can't be attacked or harmed while riding you, it could be a handy spellcasting platform for you when you bite the dust.

[Uncle Pine]

6) Skill ranks are usually capped at level +3. Divine Insight is a Cleric 2 spell that allows you to instantly add the skill modifier of a 12th level character (max +15) to your own skill check (which, if you're casting as a 10th level character, is going to be at a rough +13 already) as an insight bonus. Compare that with a spell that only comes online at 9th level, has a Will saving throw against another target, and confines you to the skill checks of its target which could be awesome in some areas but sucky in others.
Divine Insight grants an insight bonus, not actual ranks. Leech Ghost Skill is neat because it grants actual ranks (much like Void Disciple's Moment of Clarity, except LGS is uncapped) which are usually required to enter many PrCs. But that's my reading: I'm not absolutely sure that's correct, which is why I made the thread.


Arguably, then, it instantly recovers all spells it cast while piggybacking its target. I realise the spell tells us that the ghost can't use any of its abilities while leeching its target, but a Contingent Spell cast on it might get around that restriction since the ghost wouldn't be casting the spell as such -- which would be a handy way around the fact Contingent Spells expire on use.
A contingent spell isn't an ability of the ghost, it's a spell affecting him. Nothing in Leech Ghost Skill's description implies that effects active on the ghost are resetted when the spell expires.

[Saintheart]

Divine Insight grants an insight bonus, not actual ranks. Leech Ghost Skill is neat because it grants actual ranks (much like Void Disciple's Moment of Clarity, except LGS is uncapped) which are usually required to enter many PrCs. But that's my reading: I'm not absolutely sure that's correct, which is why I made the thread.

Hmmmmm. For that purpose, the way the spell seems to read is...


While this ghostly tattoo is in place, the bearer may use the ghost's skill ranks instead of his own as desired, regardless of the nature of the skill.

The SRD's wording on PrCs is ...


If a character does not meet the Requirements for a prestige class before that first step, that character cannot take the first level of that prestige class.

Bolded bits emphasised. If your DM was prepared to squint a bit at it I could see how your argument could work, but the way I read the spell it's allowing you to use the ghost's skill ranks rather than use the skill as such. The spell is clearly indicating your skill ranks and that of the ghost are not one and the same, you're substituting your own skill for his. As such, it's not your character meeting the Requirements, it's your character borrowing someone else's skills - and therefore you yourself don't meet the Requirements; they're not innate to you. So...

[Uncle Pine]

Bolded bits emphasised. If your DM was prepared to squint a bit at it I could see how your argument could work, but the way I read the spell it's allowing you to use the ghost's skill ranks rather than use the skill as such. The spell is clearly indicating your skill ranks and that of the ghost are not one and the same, you're substituting your own skill for his. As such, it's not your character meeting the Requirements, it's your character borrowing someone else's skills - and therefore you yourself don't meet the Requirements; they're not innate to you. So...

You can use temporary effects to meet prerequisites (i.e. gauntlets of ogre power to take Power Attack, then entering a PrC that requires Power Attack). In this case, you're using the ghost's skill ranks instead of your own to qualify.