Why most LA adjustment are way more wasteful then CR?

[With a box]

like, vampire's are CR+2, and LA adjustment +8.
is that just another way of saying don't play this?

[Urpriest]

In general, ECL is going to be higher than CR because you only fight monsters once, while PCs have infinite opportunity to use their abilities. In the case of the Vampire, there's a bunch of minionmancy a PC one can do that would just result in higher EL encounters if it was an NPC. Not to mention, PCs get XP every time they defeat an NPC so an NPC that's really hard to permanently kill isn't a problem, while presumably the risk of death is supposed to be a major factor for PCs.

That doesn't mean Vampire actually has a sensible LA, of course. But that's why the devs gave it the LA they did.

[frogglesmash]

LA's tend to be higher because a lot of abilities that are only okay for mobs are amazing for players, that said the answer to you're question is more or less "Yes. WotC is saying don't play this." From what I've gathered from the various forums most LA's are completely borked, even more so than most CRs.

[Jack_Simth]

like, vampire's are CR+2, and LA adjustment +8.
is that just another way of saying don't play this?
Pretty much. Unless you've got some way to mitigate the Level Adjustment (LA Buyoff, Gestalt, et cetera), it's almost never worthwhile.

And, you know, like Ur-Priest said.

[frogglesmash]

Pretty much. Unless you've got some way to mitigate the Level Adjustment (LA Buyoff, Gestalt, et cetera), it's almost never worthwhile.

And, you know, like Ur-Priest said.

There's also the cheesier option where you take the savage progression (available online) and then advance it's abilities via either Uncanny Trickster(Complete Scoundrel) or Leacy Champion(Weapons of Legacy).

[Komatik]

like, vampire's are CR+2, and LA adjustment +8.
is that just another way of saying don't play this?

Yes. Most LA that ever got assigned by the devs is just a big, elaborate "f*** you" that makes all the cool stuff either straight up unplayable or not worth it. Then we get LA+0 races that barely do anything. This being especially the case with things like flight. Advertise wow cool stuff alternate movement mo--- neener neener, nope, can't have cool things. Wait for 10HD, sucker.

LA, a sturdy stake, oil and kindling and a few quality torches would be a wonderful, wonderful combination, I imagine.

[Rubik]

Yes. Most LA that ever got assigned by the devs is just a big, elaborate "f*** you" that makes all the cool stuff either straight up unplayable or not worth it. Then we get LA+0 races that barely do anything. This being especially the case with things like flight. Advertise wow cool stuff alternate movement mo--- neener neener, nope, can't have cool things. Wait for 10HD, sucker.

LA, a sturdy stake, oil and kindling and a few quality torches would be a wonderful, wonderful combination, I imagine.Yeah. The early developers did their best to pigeonhole everyone into playing Lord of the Rings, because any other kind of fantasy world is Doing It Wrong.

[Psyren]

Yeah. The early developers did their best to pigeonhole everyone into playing Lord of the Rings, because any other kind of fantasy world is Doing It Wrong.

To be fair though, the folks who feel comfortable stepping outside that box are also usually the ones that can say "+8 LA is too much, let's reduce that at our table" or even "Screw LA entirely, monster campaign!" Pretty much everyone in this thread who feels 8 LA is too high would have no problems bumping that down, and WotC is not going to send black helicopters to anyone's playgroup when they do.

[Rubik]

To be fair though, the folks who feel comfortable stepping outside that box are also usually the ones that can say "+8 LA is too much, let's reduce that at our table" or even "Screw LA entirely, monster campaign!" Pretty much everyone in this thread who feels 8 LA is too high would have no problems bumping that down, and WotC is not going to send black helicopters to anyone's playgroup when they do.I've intercepted some radio communications from the Spellcasters on the Beach, and you should probably hole up. The Splat Squad has been dispatched.

THEY KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE.

[Psyren]

I've intercepted some radio communications from the Spellcasters on the Beach, and you should probably hole up. The Splat Squad has been dispatched.

THEY KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE.

Yes, exactly :smallbiggrin: The Magus Who Lives By The Shore is not to be trifled with.

[Rebel7284]

I've intercepted some radio communications from the Spellcasters on the Beach, and you should probably hole up. The Splat Squad has been dispatched.

THEY KNOW WHERE YOU LIVE.

I just want to give you an internet cookie for that name. I love how it works on multiple levels.

[Segev]

I just want to give you an internet cookie for that name. I love how it works on multiple levels.

Spell, dungeon, optimization, or character?

[Rubik]

Spell, dungeon, optimization, or character?L-E-V-E-L whitetext

[P.F.]

like, vampire's are CR+2, and LA adjustment +8.
is that just another way of saying don't play this?

No. CR is for a single encounter. LA is for an entire campaign.

Leaving aside the obvious deficiencies of comparing power levels across various classes, optimizations, and DM's, this is another way of saying that a single bout with am 8-HD vampire is roughly equivalent to a fight with a 10 HD human, whilst being persecuted over the course of a campaign (or extended story arc) is equivalent to having a very wealthy, well-connected, 16-HD human as your enemy.

[Necroticplague]

In theory, because some abilities are more useful for PCs than enemies, and vice versa. Fast healing is almost useless on enemies, while it can save PCs a good chunk of random deaths. Regeneration is decent on enemies to make puzzle bosses, but ridiculous on a PC trying to cover his weaknesses (regeneration+immunity to nonlethal+immunity to whatever its Regeneration weakness is). Anything that makes minions is irrelevant on NPCs because the minions are included in the EL, while it can be very useful for PCs to have disposable suckers.

In practice, its because WOTC hates the idea of PCs being anything other than bog-standard Core races, and wants to make that very clear by making everything else suck.

[Segev]

The minions paradox, when minions stem from a creature's ability, has always been an interesting one.

Why should they count, individually, as part of the encounter when they're really a feature of the bad guy's powers?

The answer to that lies in the difficulty, for most kinds of minion-masters, of determining what the minions will be from encounter to encounter. One mind flayer might have a couple of human thralls with fighter levels, while another might have enslaved a half-dozen fleshrakers.

So, therefore, minions of the "go out and 'hire' your own" sort NEED to be accounted for separately.

Conversely, then, PCs with minions probably should have the minions count as increasing the party's effective level. (I know, that makes minionmancers more frustrating than they already are for their fellow party members; they're reducing the XP total of the whole party!)

Mechanically, this can usually be resolved by applying some sort of limit to any mind-control/minion-creating power. If that's done, then the power level of potential minions is constrained, and can be properly accounted as part of the "master," whether for CR purposes or XP award calculations due to party level.

[atemu1234]

Pathfinder's system is better, if I do say. At least it breaks for the players, instead of screwing them.

[nyjastul69]

In theory, because some abilities are more useful for PCs than enemies, and vice versa. Fast healing is almost useless on enemies, while it can save PCs a good chunk of random deaths. Regeneration is decent on enemies to make puzzle bosses, but ridiculous on a PC trying to cover his weaknesses (regeneration+immunity to nonlethal+immunity to whatever its Regeneration weakness is). Anything that makes minions is irrelevant on NPCs because the minions are included in the EL, while it can be very useful for PCs to have disposable suckers.

In practice, its because WOTC hates the idea of PCs being anything other than bog-standard Core races, and wants to make that very clear by making everything else suck.

I mostly agree with this. I would like to add a drow's ability to levitate. On an NPC drow in a normal combat, it may, or may not, be useful. On a PC it will definitely be a useful ability at some point. More than likely it would be useful outside of combat in order to circumvent an obstacle.

[P.F.]

In theory, because some abilities are more useful for PCs than enemies, and vice versa.

Insofar as enemies are only encountered once, and only fight the PC's in a direct confrontation, this makes a lot of sense. Again, a single encounter with an 8-HD vampire is only expected to use 20% of a 10th level party's resources. If that vampire is a recurring villain, however, it's power level, treasure, social influence, etc., is equivalent to that of a 16th level character. When the players finally take it down, they should be rewarded accordingly. I think of it like this: if the vampire is this episode's disposable baddie, use its CR. If it's Professor Moriarty, use the LA.


In practice, its because WOTC hates the idea of PCs being anything other than bog-standard Core races, and wants to make that very clear by making everything else suck.

In all fairness, if we're looking at a 16th level core-only human fighter versus an 8th level fighter vampire, I'd say the two are pretty well balanced. If we're talking about a 16th level human wizard ... .

[Necroticplague]

In all fairness, if we're looking at a 16th level core-only human fighter versus an 8th level fighter vampire, I'd say the two are pretty well balanced. If we're talking about a 16th level human wizard ... .

Actually, thanks to the sheer number of HD (and thus HP, saves,feats and BaB), I think the fighter actually comes ahead in this comparison.

[Chronos]

Pathfinder's system is worse, not better. The game plays just fine if nobody is a vampire or minotaur or half-dragon or whatever, which is in practice the result of LAs being too high. But the game does not play well if being a normal human is just flat-out inferior to being a monster of some sort, which is the result of LAs being too low. Obviously, the ideal would be the right amount of LA, such that being a monster is possible but not mandatory, but if it's going to be a bit off, I'd rather err on the high side.

[ryu]

Pathfinder's system is worse, not better. The game plays just fine if nobody is a vampire or minotaur or half-dragon or whatever, which is in practice the result of LAs being too high. But the game does not play well if being a normal human is just flat-out inferior to being a monster of some sort, which is the result of LAs being too low. Obviously, the ideal would be the right amount of LA, such that being a monster is possible but not mandatory, but if it's going to be a bit off, I'd rather err on the high side.

On the contrary. We already have blatantly unfair choices for people to make at character creation. If the game is already held together by some form of gentlemen's agreement to stay at a particular power level there should be nothing whatsoever to discourage unusual races.

[Anachronity]

In a normal (i.e. non-gestalt) campaign I typically use a combination of LA buyoff and bonus monster hit dice: each level of monster in which you don't gain a hit die gives you a sub-par bonus hit die. This hit die is d6 with all low saves, low BAB, and 4+int skills per level (I typically use Pathfinder skills, so the skills might get tricky in normal 3.5). The main point is that the player doesn't fall behind in feats and hitpoints, which in my view is the biggest disadvantage of LA (unless you're playing a spellcaster). The player can then replace these sub-par hit dice one-by-one using LA buyoff rules.

[Ettina]

Isn't CR what level of 4-person party they're a good match for?

If you have one vampire versus 4 adventurers, for it to be an even match, the vampire's equivalent character level would have to be much higher than the adventurers.

[Jack_Simth]

Isn't CR what level of 4-person party they're a good match for?No. CR = Party Level is supposed to burn about 25% of the party's daily resources (doesn't usually work out that way, but that's what it's supposed to be). CR = Party Level + 4 is supposed to be a risk, but not certainty, of a TPK.

[Zaydos]

1 PC should be able to fight EL = CL-4 with 25% risk, EL = CL with a high chance of death.

Now one thing people forget is that Elite Array is +1 CR, and PC wealth by level is +1 CR. Then again so is 4 HD on many creatures.

That said LA is because some abilities are disproportionately useful to a PC. Any minion creation, fast healing, regeneration, undead immunities, flight (monsters are less likely to have ranged attacks than PCs).

That said they purposefully inflated LAs to discourage playing things with them :smallsigh: