Help with overrun dive

[Temennigru]

I'm cooking up a lvl 9 diving charger build and I would like to make him get up into the air, then do a vertical dive to deal multiplicative damage and then overrun the opponent.
My idea would be to have the character with improved dragon wings for flight, then use power attack with shock trooper + battle leader's charge to get substantial damage going on, then stack the multipliers from diving charge and a valorous halberd.
My (exploitable) problem is I would be landing on top of the enemy, so my solution for that was to leave him prone so I could still get a couple of attacks off before having to do any actual battle.
Initially I was trying to get the build to work with bull rushing and pushback (Miniatures Handbook, p. 27) the same way knock-down would work with improved trip, but I just couldn't fit bull rushing and knocking down together.
My second idea was to use overrun, but aside from power dive (Draconomicon, p. 72), which gives you some neat extra damage, but negates your attacks and ability to charge, I can't find a way to do a diving charge, attack, then overrun an opponent.

Here are the feats I have so far:
Flaw 1 - Dragon Wings
Flaw 2 -
Silverbrow Human -
1 - Jotunbrud
3 -
6 - Improved Dragon Wings
9 - Improved Flight
Fighter 1 - Power Attack
Fighter 2 - Improved Bull Rush
Fighter 4 -
Fighter 6 - Shock Trooper

[Temennigru]

Idea one:
Drop 2 levels of fighter, stick power attack and improved bull-rush into slots [human] and [Flaw 2], get Air Heritage into slot [3] (not related to the build, but it gives a tasty +30ft to flight speed), get 2 levels of some kind of totem barbarian for free feats and get Rampaging Bull Rush and Pushback or Knockback.
There is still the problem of the "you cannot bull rush someone into a solid surface". How can I solve that?

[Darkweave31]

You might try a reach weapon instead so you aren't ending next to/on top of them. That way you can fly and hit enemies without getting within their reach.

Other than that I'd say the best way to knock them prone is to deal enough damage with your charge to drop them to negatives.

[Darrin]

If you "dive" straight down, you can use Roof-Jumper (Cityscape) to add +1d6 for each 10' fallen after the first 10'.

The rules don't really cover what happens when you fall on top of someone from above. Unless there's a considerable difference in size, it's a stacking violation for the square you're falling into. Treating it as an unavoidable overrun is probably the easiest way to resolve who gets knocked prone.

Note: for each 200 lbs of weight, you do 1d6 falling object damage (max 20d6). That was the original idea behind Sinfire Titan's original 4500 lbs of Stupid (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1224546). In Core, there's no way to avoid this damage, although a quick-thinking DM may call for an attack roll or Ref save of some sort. If you have access to Heroes of Battle, you can use the Aerial Bombardment rules to give the target a DC 15 Ref save to avoid, but figuring out who winds up in what square is still a head-scratcher.

Jormengand's Ridiculous Character Concepts 2: Slam Dunk! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?402795) thread is probably worth a perusal if you're looking for ideas.

[Temennigru]

Screw the prone thing. I'm taking levels in dungeoncrasher and pushing people into the ground.

[Flickerdart]

You can't charge and overrun at the same time.

[Temennigru]

You can't charge and overrun at the same time.

That's why I'm going back to bull rushing. Overrun has too little feats to support it.

With the dungeoncrasher bull rush and the charging dive, I can deal an average of 102 damage in 1 hit. For lvl 9 I think that is good enough, considering my group doesn't look too fondly at overoptimized builds.

[Flickerdart]

That's why I'm going back to bull rushing. Overrun has too little feats to support it.
There are two pretty neat ones that combine in a nasty way - Valenar Trample lets you make an attack against the overrun target (along with your mount attacking off Trample) and then Cavalry Charger lets you make an indefinite amount of Tramples. With a high enough speed you can cruise around the battlefield knocking over every baddie you find and roughing them up pretty bad between you and the horse (especially if you're both packing Snap Kick).

There's also Chariot Trample, which lets you trample an opponent with every steed pulling your chariot. How many horses can you hitch to one at a time before your DM chucks a book at you?

[Temennigru]

There are two pretty neat ones that combine in a nasty way - Valenar Trample lets you make an attack against the overrun target (along with your mount attacking off Trample) and then Cavalry Charger lets you make an indefinite amount of Tramples. With a high enough speed you can cruise around the battlefield knocking over every baddie you find and roughing them up pretty bad between you and the horse (especially if you're both packing Snap Kick).

There's also Chariot Trample, which lets you trample an opponent with every steed pulling your chariot. How many horses can you hitch to one at a time before your DM chucks a book at you?

But you can't overrun while charging. My character is primarily a dive-charger. Bull-rushing/Trampling is her secondary role.

Also, I have to check with the DM if I qualify for knockback with jotunbrud. I think I do, as knockback says

size Large or larger (goliaths qualify by virtue of their powerful build racial trait)
meaning "Having powerful build does indeed qualify you as large, though it does not count as a (optional)prerequisite for qualifying for this feat". Since jotunbrud does exactly the same thing as powerful build except for allowing you to wield larger weapons (which is irrelevant for qualifying for the feat), I think it's safe to say that it qualifies you for knockback.

LINK (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=170170)

[Flickerdart]

Also, I have to check with the DM if I qualify for knockback with jotunbrud. I think I do, as knockback says

meaning "Having powerful build does indeed qualify you as large, though it does not count as a (optional)prerequisite for qualifying for this feat". Since jotunbrud does exactly the same thing as powerful build except for allowing you to wield larger weapons (which is irrelevant for qualifying for the feat), I think it's safe to say that it qualifies you for knockback.
It doesn't - even Powerful Build has to have a special exception made for it, and Jotunbrud is even less like Large than it is - but asking the DM never hurts.

[atemu1234]

It doesn't - even Powerful Build has to have a special exception made for it, and Jotunbrud is even less like Large than it is - but asking the DM never hurts.

Has anyone suggested size-increasing templates yet?

[Hiro Quester]

I can't see how to both charge and overrun in the same attack.

But have you considered flyby attack? Make the most powerful charge attack you can (or bullrush) in the middle of a move action, turn and repeat each round. This is how a Giant Eagle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagleGiant.htm)attacks.

[Temennigru]

It doesn't - even Powerful Build has to have a special exception made for it, and Jotunbrud is even less like Large than it is - but asking the DM never hurts.

That wasn't an exception. It was reminder text.

I can't see how to both charge and overrun in the same attack.

But have you considered flyby attack? Make the most powerful charge attack you can (or bullrush) in the middle of a move action, turn and repeat each round. This is how a Giant Eagle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagleGiant.htm)attacks.
I didn't know flyby allowed a dive in the middle of a move. I might consider that if the DM rules against knockback.

[Flickerdart]

That wasn't an exception. It was reminder text.
No, it isn't reminder text. Powerful Build does not normally let you count as Large for prerequisites. Knockback says "in this case, Powerful Build is okay." Either way, Jotunbrud is not the same ability and doesn't qualify by the rules, much in the same way that a sorcerer can't learn rary's mnemonic enhancer just because he is a lot like a wizard.

[Temennigru]

No, it isn't reminder text. Powerful Build does not normally let you count as Large for prerequisites. Knockback says "in this case, Powerful Build is okay." Either way, Jotunbrud is not the same ability and doesn't qualify by the rules, much in the same way that a sorcerer can't learn rary's mnemonic enhancer just because he is a lot like a wizard.

The wording for exceptions is different.
In this case it was


size Large or larger (goliaths qualify by virtue of their powerful build racial trait)

An exception would be


size Large or larger or the powerful build racial trait


The way it is worded, it reminds the player that powerful build qualifies you as large for cases like this one.
Almost everything in parenthesis in D&D is reminder text.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Almost everything in parenthesis in D&D is reminder text.

Almost being the operative word. You need to look at what Power Build says to determine what it does, not a singular feat. Powerful Build has a specific list of effects and "counts as large for prerequisites" is not on that list.

[Temennigru]

Almost being the operative word. You need to look at what Power Build says to determine what it does, not a singular feat. Powerful Build has a specific list of effects and "counts as large for prerequisites" is not on that list.

The entire wording for the feature feels weird. I feel like it deserves errata.