Wear n' Tear rules (and mabye sundering?)

[1Forge]

So I read through a ton threads and I only found crappy solutions for item breakage. Eventually I hombrewed some of my own. The idea is that when an enemy misses because you are wearing armour they often hit your armour thus causing damage.

As an example I'll give a regular NPC wearing half-plate. His AC is 18 (15 + 2 dex+ 1 from a feat) a knight swings a great sword at him and rolls a 19 he hits no damage to armour (I'm assuming he was aiming for a chink in the armour); his buddy attacks he rolled a 14 he misses hitting the plate causing half damage to the armour itself.

To determine if the armour is damaged you have to see if it hit the armour or if he dodged it. In this scenario the NPC's armour takes no damage if his opponent hits, or rolls 1-13 (he missed); he hits the armour if he rolls a 14-18 (he missed the target but hit his armour) This also works for shields If he had a shield (and an AC of 20) then 1-13 misses 14-15 hits the sheild and 16-20 hits the half-plate. The rule is 1-10+dexterity+feat or other = total miss; that+2 =sheild (if any); Everything else that dosent hit the target hits the armour.

Armour durability is ruled by its material (I dont have stats for each material) OR by the cost of the armour/sheild (ex half plate is has 750 hp and full plate has 1,600 hp)

Armour can be "healed" either by smiths,magic, or everyday care. Care of weapons (like oiling and polishing) can heal non-permanent damage (1d4 per long rest), magic (like mending) heals 1d100, and a smith fixes the item for half the damage fixed in gold (ex plate that was totaled completely by a dragon would cost 800 gp to fix)


Let me know what you think of these rules.


EDIT people dont like these rules so please go to my revised rules. Also please give constructive criticism say what is wrong and why, an example is nice. Please don't just say you hate it because you don't like wear and tear systems; or how item breakage is not "fun" some people like these types of rules.

GO TO COMMENT # 25 to see the new ideas.

[PhantomRenegade]

This punishes light armor wielders by forcing them to carry multiple sets of armor, armor which they probably can't really carry since light armor users tend to be Dex characters.

Alternatively it'll force one of the magic users to take mending, which is kinda eeeeeeh.


Does this apply to magical armor too or are you keeping those indestructible?

[ISitOnGnomes]

Equipment maintenance is already a part of the lifestyle cost. Not much need to add unnecessary complexity to what is supposed to be a simple system for monster thumping.

[1Forge]

This punishes light armor wielders by forcing them to carry multiple sets of armor, armor which they probably can't really carry since light armor users tend to be Dex characters.

Alternatively it'll force one of the magic users to take mending, which is kinda eeeeeeh.


Does this apply to magical armor too or are you keeping those indestructible?

Magic armour cannot be harmed from mundane weapons though stronger magical items folloe these rules. The magic in most items usually heals 1d100 after each short rest unless otherwise specified. Masterwork cannot be harmed by anything short of an adamantine tool. Also master work items have another 1000 gp added to their cost (and thus to hp)

Also light armour can be patched to full hp quite easily after the battle.

@Isitongnomes This game is not only about monster thumping, it can be so much more. Also this gives a reason to take care of items and to be cautious; Also I dont charge upkeep unless a large period of time has occured and then I apply those rules, for everyday use I apply my rules.

[JNAProductions]

This just feels generally clunky and brings too much bookkeeping. 5E has nice, streamlined combat-this will slow it down a lot.

That, and it really overpowers magic here. Basic, physical care? 1d4. A cantrip you can cast once every 6 seconds? 1d100. Any group without a caster with Mending is just screwed.

[1Forge]

It encourages casters to learn that "one cantrip". Mending fixes things to their original condition, so on most items this would be just fine. Also basic care is like polishing (no skill needed) serious care means your fixing it like a blacksmith (you need a skill, and tools) Also it's not much book keeping once you understand it.

And this system would only be used for my more realistic/gritty campaigns, groups that just want to bonk the monster on the head wouldnt use this.

[JNAProductions]

It encourages casters to learn that "one cantrip". Mending fixes things to their original condition, so on most items this would be just fine. Also basic care is like polishing (no skill needed) serious care means your fixing it like a blacksmith (you need a skill, and tools) Also it's not much book keeping once you understand it.

And this system would only be used for my more realistic/gritty campaigns, groups that just want to bonk the monster on the head wouldnt use this.

Not really. It forces them to learn it. It's a tax. Not a choice.

I dunno. It just seems highly unneccessary. Sundering rules would be fine, but wear 'n' tear rules seems excessive.

[1Forge]

Not really. It forces them to learn it. It's a tax. Not a choice.



They always have a choice. And like I said before, it would only be for groups that wanted the more realistic style of play. It's not a tax if they are willing, it's more like a donation.:smallbiggrin:

[Mellack]

Seems like a lot of tedious book-keeping for little to no upside. Also makes casters into healbots for both people and equipment. People in D&D can heal to full overnight, why not their equipment?

[Mellack]

Armour durability is ruled by its material (I dont have stats for each material) OR by the cost of the armour/sheild (ex half plate is has 750 hp and full plate has 1,600 hp)

Let me know what you think of these rules.

Wait...so a shield (10gp) blocks only 1-2 attacks??? And then is useless? The same for padded, leather, or hide. Not a good plan.

[squab]

They always have a choice. And like I said before, it would only be for groups that wanted the more realistic style of play. It's not a tax if they are willing, it's more like a donation.:smallbiggrin:

No, no, it does force them. You have a system with armor wear and tear that a single cantrip eliminates? Forces. Also if mending does eliminate it that easy, then this system can only be effectively used in zero magic campaigns or campaigns where you start taking scissors to the spell list. The choics is whether the martials want to take a level dip in wizard/feat that gives them a cantrip or are they content with the party caster fixing up their armor every night?

On top of that, your system seems overly complicated. Offer several tiers of degrading armor, every X hits your armor drops a tier. Also you need rules for repairing armor, particularly on the fly.

On top of that, the premise of the system is adding extra bookkeeping in exchange for extra downside. That sounds boring and tedious. Much more tedious then "my character spent some time learning armor maintenance and spends some time doing that before bed." Players usually choice to ignore systems built around "bookkeeping and downside."

Lastly, I'd be interested in research on what armor maintenance was like in medieval times. A lot of the time "realism" in D&D is actually "what a 21rst century man thinks combat/life was like in medieval times despite having zero education or training in that subject."

[Takewo]

And what happens with the weapons? I mean, hand to hand combat is a very elaborated martial art and there are lots of factors, but usually you don't go around dodging or letting your armour take the strike. You try and divert the opponent's attack, especially when you are using a two handed weapon. And for that you use your weapon, your body...

[PhantomRenegade]

I agree with most people that this is a really janky system without any upside, but if the players want to do it anyway i'd implement the following 2 changes.

Add "Repair tools" to the game, anybody can use them, 20 minutes of repair work fixes 50 points of damage on a weapon or armor, with proficiency that goes up to 100, this way you aren't forcing the party to take mending. I'd also make the repair tools fairly heavy but make it so that a party only needs one set of tools if the players are all fixing different pieces of equipment.

I would also make available to the players weapons and armor that are mechanically identical to their normal variants in every other system but that cost more and thus have more hit points, since it may be quite a while until your players get a full set of masterwork or magical items and they will want some sort of buffer in between.

[whibla]

And what happens with the weapons? I mean, hand to hand combat is a very elaborated martial art and there are lots of factors, but usually you don't go around dodging or letting your armour take the strike. You try and divert the opponent's attack, especially when you are using a two handed weapon. And for that you use your weapon, your body...

This was actually the first thought in my head too, though I was thinking something different again.

Your springy rapier hits a solid mass of steel plate with all the force you can muster, but it's the plate that takes the damage? Your razor sharp, albeit non-magical, blade grates over an opponent's suit of chainmail but, again, it's only the chainmail that takes the damage?

I can understand the desire to make the game more gritty, more realistic, and it's certainly a fantasy literature staple for the 'heroes' to perform field repairs on their equipment as they gather round the campfire at day's end. However, the system you've suggested strikes me as unneccessarily cumbersome, unrealistic, and unfair to wearers of lighter armours.

If I were to implement a system designed to simulate the deterioration of arms and armour I'd either go for as realistic as possible (and half damage to armour is not realistic - stabbing a suit of plate with a dagger is unlikely to do half as much damage to the plate as it would stabbing a soft fleshy person, and that's without even accounting for such factors as either weapon deflection or the dagger breaking), or I'd try for something relatively simple*, perhaps damage categories:

(0) Shop New - This item gleams. Your party will make fun of / enviously exclaim over your new Burleigh & Stronginthearm Mk. II. No modifiers.
(1) Worn In - Default state of most well maintained arms and armour. Remarkable only in that it's unremarkable. No modifiers.
(2) Damaged - In a slight state of disrepair. Could use a bit of love and oil around the fire tonight. No modifiers.
(3) Heavily Damaged - Armour has torn straps, large rents, etc. weapons have significant notches. Armour has cumulative -1 to AC, weapons -1 to Damage, until properly repaired. If a conferred AC ever reaches 10, or a weapon's damage dice is reduced to 0-0, the armour or weapon is...
(4) Destroyed. Serves no useful function anymore, except for perhaps weighing down corpses for aquatic burial. A skilled Smith can salvage up to 50% of the raw meterials needed to make another piece of equipment of the same kind, though this does not reduce the craft time significantly.

Applying these modifiers is as much a matter of personal taste as anything else. For me, any day in which someone saw multiple combats would result in Damaged equipment. Anyone with a suitable tool proficiency can restore a Damaged piece of equipment back to its Worn In state as light activity, over a period of no more than an hour. A Mending spell can be substituted for the relevant tool proficiency but, due to the limits on the Mending spell, the time requirements are about the same, and, ofc, spell casting is not light activity. Any day in which someone using Damaged equipment saw multiple combats would result in a 10% chance of that equipment becoming (more) Heavily Damaged. A Heavily Damaged piece of equipment can be restored to a Damaged state either by means of a Mending spell (one casting per point of penalty) or by a skilled craftsman, with access to all relevant tools, the latter requiring 1 full day (8 hours work) per point of penalty. Finally any critical hit suffered by a creature would have a 10% chance of increasing the damage level of one piece of equipment.

*I use the word relatively ...um, relatively!

[1Forge]

Okay First off I didnt post this for complaints about this "being just a game for monster smashing" or that "no one likes book keeping" or anything like that this was my idea for a more realistic approach to D&D.

Second if you read above I said people with career skills like blacksmiths and tinkerers can fix up equipment fully as long as they have the materials. (ex: a hammer and an anvil for blacksmiths)

Also like I said above DM's can also determine durability through materials (ex: iron sheilds are worse then steel ones) The $$$ based system is just a quick way for basic mundane armours. Furthermore this gives players a reason to buy new equipment periodicly that is made of slightly better materials, that arn't magical. This also gives more reason for adamantine armour.

also It DOES NOT FORCE casters to learn mending, (1 our casters already know it anyway before I used these rules), and 2 you only need one guy with proficiency in tools and BOOM you can fix your armour easily.

and seriously you guys are complaining, like the players aren't willing participants, they dont spend a ton of time book keeping they literally just subtract damage from their armour every now and then. No one complains of armour durability in RPG's or MMO's, seriously don't comment if you're just going to say any system that you don't play with is a terrible idea, or taking away from the game because it hasn't I've played with these rules and they are quite fun, and they enjoy them.

Also like I said this is a more realistic campaign, players dont heal everything over night, I use varient rules and some house ruled one's to make it slightly more realistic. Seriously not everyone likes the totally unrealistic MMO style of play many of us like something deeper.:smallannoyed:

p.s.(with the rapier chest plate thing, while I love rapiers and most people dont know the truth about rapiers I agree that light weapons should only do superficial damage to heavy armour 1 damage unless magical)

[JNAProductions]

How are you carrying that hammer and anvil with you?

As a personal note, Whibla's idea is really cool to me, and probably what I'd use.

However, 1Forge-we are stating our opinions. And most of us don't like that system. If your players like it, that is fantastic! Keep on using it. But for me and a the other posters here? We don't like it. We would not want to play with it.

If it works for you and your group, then that's great. Keep using it. That's the main point of this post.

[1Forge]

(0) Shop New - This item gleams. Your party will make fun of / enviously exclaim over your new Burleigh & Stronginthearm Mk. II. No modifiers.
(1) Worn In - Default state of most well maintained arms and armour. Remarkable only in that it's unremarkable. No modifiers.
(2) Damaged - In a slight state of disrepair. Could use a bit of love and oil around the fire tonight. No modifiers.
(3) Heavily Damaged - Armour has torn straps, large rents, etc. weapons have significant notches. Armour has cumulative -1 to AC, weapons -1 to Damage, until properly repaired. If a conferred AC ever reaches 10, or a weapon's damage dice is reduced to 0-0, the armour or weapon is...
(4) Destroyed. Serves no useful function anymore, except for perhaps weighing down corpses for aquatic burial. A skilled Smith can salvage up to 50% of the raw meterials needed to make another piece of equipment of the same kind, though this does not reduce the craft time significantly.



I was trying systems like this but it was hard to fairly determine whose Armour needed "a bit of love and oil around the fire tonight" so I tried a basic durability system like many games use. But thank you for the advice over just flat complaint, your opinion is noted.

How would you determine when someones armour needed to drop a tier? would you just play by ear or what?

[1Forge]

Add "Repair tools" to the game, anybody can use them, 20 minutes of repair work fixes 50 points of damage on a weapon or armor, with proficiency that goes up to 100, this way you aren't forcing the party to take mending. I'd also make the repair tools fairly heavy but make it so that a party only needs one set of tools if the players are all fixing different pieces of equipment.



I was just using the profession proficiencys like blacksmithing and stuff

@JNA productions: Jewlers anvils are much lighter then you'd think and in a pinch I've found they work fine in real life. And I know you guys are stating your opinions, but I was hoping for constructive critisism and or other peoples systems so I could improve mine.

[JNAProductions]

Alright.

So does the monetary cost (1/2 the HP damage) come in the form of raw materials? Because if so, field repair requires you to have pre-aquired the needed metals.

And yes-I am being nitpicky. You say it's for added realism, nitpickiness seems appropiate.

My suggestion is that for less than 1/4th damage (or some other number, but 1/4th seems good) no money/materials are needed. That's dents, small tears, rent straps, and similar, things that can be repaired for effectively no cost so long as you have the needed tools. Have a short rest with the needed tools repair 10d20 HP-making actual tools better than Mending. (If a bit more time-consuming.)

[PhantomRenegade]

The normal proficiencies work too, i just thought it'd be nice to have an agregate fix stuff skill.

[Person_Man]

My experience has been that most players really hate item breakage. Its why the developers removed Sunder as a default option from the rules. They didn't want to encourage players to waste an attack on something that's usually a bad idea, and they didn't want to encourage DMs to use it against players and make them hate the game.

Also, item degradation in video games is generally not included for the sake of realism. In roguelike video games its included as part of resource management, which is the entire point of roguelikes. In rpgs the search to find metal/wood/etc for the crafting/repair system forces players to explore, and it forces them to swap out or upgrade old items for new items. It can be particularly important in games with steep scaling (enemies keep getting harder as you gain levels and/or explore new areas), because without it, some players will just not upgrade their weapons/armor, and then the game becomes too difficult because they can't defeat enemies, and they rage quit and hate the game. (The alternative is to include a Diablolike random treasure generator, or to just not include steep scaling of enemies).

5E averts the upgrading treadmill with bounded accuracy and limited magic items. And you don't need to encourage player to explore in a tabletop roleplaying game, because the game is flexible enough that you can fit your story into any setting. (Unlike a video game, where events are hard coded to occur at specific locations, or occur randomly when you explore some part of the hidden map).

So if your players want resource management to be a more prominent part of the game, then by all means, include whatever mechanics you think are most enjoyable. Otherwise, I would not recommend using it.

[D.U.P.A.]

My experience has been that most players really hate item breakage. Its why the developers removed Sunder as a default option from the rules. They didn't want to encourage players to waste an attack on something that's usually a bad idea, and they didn't want to encourage DMs to use it against players and make them hate the game.

Also, item degradation in video games is generally not included for the sake of realism. In roguelike video games its included as part of resource management, which is the entire point of roguelikes. In rpgs the search to find metal/wood/etc for the crafting/repair system forces players to explore, and it forces them to swap out or upgrade old items for new items. It can be particularly important in games with steep scaling (enemies keep getting harder as you gain levels and/or explore new areas), because without it, some players will just not upgrade their weapons/armor, and then the game becomes too difficult because they can't defeat enemies, and they rage quit and hate the game. (The alternative is to include a Diablolike random treasure generator, or to just not include steep scaling of enemies).

5E averts the upgrading treadmill with bounded accuracy and limited magic items. And you don't need to encourage player to explore in a tabletop roleplaying game, because the game is flexible enough that you can fit your story into any setting. (Unlike a video game, where events are hard coded to occur at specific locations, or occur randomly when you explore some part of the hidden map).

So if your players want resource management to be a more prominent part of the game, then by all means, include whatever mechanics you think are most enjoyable. Otherwise, I would not recommend using it.

Also worth mentioning this is not singleplayer RPG (MMORPG don't differ much in this aspect either), which means grinding for materials and other resources is not an option, because in 5 player game, which is played once a week, one player cannot afford to go through the whole tedious process and leaving others just watching, since unlike in video games you cannot do that simultaneously and other player may become bored. Tabletop RPGs should be compared to and draw inspiration from board games, not videogames.

[Mellack]

You asked the boards "Let me know what you think of these rules." You should not complain then when people respond with how they feel about those rules.

I think they would be tedious and not add any fun or realism to the game. Armor gets damaged in real world combat. But these rules do very little to reflect that. A whip or a rapier will do very little damage plate armor. How come the armor cannot damage the weapon instead? I don't care how many times you stab with that dagger, it is not going to destroy a shield. But by your rules it has a mere 10 points, meaning the dagger will destroy it in 2-3 blows from a farmer.

Even more strange is how they only damage it when they fail to damage the person inside. If a PC is wearing leather and gets clawed 3 times, they might be dying but the armor is perfect. Not a single claw went through the leather. Yet a miss by one might completely make it useless?

Now you say your group is on board with this. I hope you and they have fun. For myself it just adds another layer of record-keeping and abstraction.

[Vogonjeltz]

Let me know what you think of these rules.

I hate them. The least fun part of the Diablo games is the necessity to repair things. I'll give you one guess what the least fun part of D&D would be if this rule were similarly imposed.

Sundering things to destroy them is fine, but incidental damage from normal use is just an annoyance.

Lastly, who exactly is clamoring for an armor damage system to get shoehorned into their Adventuring day?

[1Forge]

Alright.

So does the monetary cost (1/2 the HP damage) come in the form of raw materials? Because if so, field repair requires you to have pre-aquired the needed metals.

And yes-I am being nitpicky. You say it's for added realism, nitpickiness seems appropiate.

My suggestion is that for less than 1/4th damage (or some other number, but 1/4th seems good) no money/materials are needed. That's dents, small tears, rent straps, and similar, things that can be repaired for effectively no cost so long as you have the needed tools. Have a short rest with the needed tools repair 10d20 HP-making actual tools better than Mending. (If a bit more time-consuming.)


Sorry about being a little annoyed earlier I was having a bad day.

So I thought about it and you guys do have some good points.
I want to use some of Whiblas chart (below)

(0) Shop New - This item gleams. Your party will make fun of / enviously exclaim over your new Burleigh & Stronginthearm Mk. II. No modifiers.
(1) Worn In - Default state of most well maintained arms and armour. Remarkable only in that it's unremarkable. No modifiers.
(2) Damaged - In a slight state of disrepair. Could use a bit of love and oil around the fire tonight. No modifiers.
(3) Heavily Damaged - Armour has torn straps, large rents, etc. weapons have significant notches. Armour has cumulative -1 to AC, weapons -1 to Damage, until properly repaired. If a conferred AC ever reaches 10, or a weapon's damage dice is reduced to 0-0, the armour or weapon is...
(4) Destroyed. Serves no useful function anymore, except for perhaps weighing down corpses for aquatic burial. A skilled Smith can salvage up to 50% of the raw meterials needed to make another piece of equipment of the same kind, though this does not reduce the craft time significantly.

to change a "tier" in wear n tear you must as much damage 1/4 its total hp (The $$$ based system is out as people highly dislike it) Heavy armour has a damage threshold equal to it's armour class+ material bonuses (if any) and is resistant to all damage. Medium and Heavy Armour cannot be damaged from finesse weapons, or by weapons that are made of a weaker material (ex: copper knife cant hurt a steel chest plate)
-When armour is in the first state there are no debuffs. Its new so you dont need to care for it for 1 week.
- The second state can be reversed by simple everyday care with no side effects, if it is not cared for within a week it slippes to 3rd tier of disrepair.
-in the third state armour loses its damage threshold and resistance. this damage needs a skilled craftsmen to fix. Everyday care will keep the item from falling apart entirely. To fix entirely you will need 1/4 the total materials needed to create the item divided by your proficiency modifier if applicable. Ex: hypothetically If half plate needed 10 lbs of iron to create, then a 1st level character with proficency in blacksmithing tools would need 2 lbs iron (thats two silver according to the PHB) to repair to "shop new".
-The last tier follows some of the rules from above; you can salvage half the raw materials the item was originally made of, or you can cast mending to repair to tier 3 (some materials were lost)

Blades:
tier 1- blades that are "shop new" are considered razor sharp and do +1 damage on the first attack they give.
tier 2- no change
tier 3- blades are considered dull -1 to damage, simple sharpening will return it to tier 2.
tier 4- blades are either chipped beyond repair or just flat out broken. You can salvage 3/4 materials lost from these.


Now theres only the problem of determining how these items slip a tier (I edited and put some time limits on the armour but I dont know if I like it.) What type of HP would each item have?

Also special thanks to :
PhantomRenegade, Mellack, whibla, and JNAProductions For their ideas and constructive criticism of my flawed system.

[1Forge]

Lastly, I'd be interested in research on what armor maintenance was like in medieval times. A lot of the time "realism" in D&D is actually "what a 21rst century man thinks combat/life was like in medieval times despite having zero education or training in that subject."

one souce says "a knight would have a squire to clean and oil his armour every evening. I suppose even simple footman with chain mail had the time after setting camp to maintain their armour and weapon."
Also I am a blacksmith IRL and I know how they make basic chestplates, chainmail, scale mail, and helmets (gauntlets and other pieces of later age plate still confuse me) from this I know basic repairs can either be extremely easy or terribly difficult depending on the damage though most is fairly easy to fix. (ex: you could just have to fold the metel over or you might have to replace the entire piece.)
i also know iron and some ancient steels (not modern steel) rusted incredibly fast so oiling and polishing was a regular activity before bed (like brushing your teeth) because of this knights clothing was almost always covered in oil; to solve this many knights painted their armour when it wasn't being used (for storage)

Hope that helps

[Vogonjeltz]

one souce says "a knight would have a squire to clean and oil his armour every evening. I suppose even simple footman with chain mail had the time after setting camp to maintain their armour and weapon."
Also I am a blacksmith IRL and I know how they make basic chestplates, chainmail, scale mail, and helmets (gauntlets and other pieces of later age plate still confuse me) from this I know basic repairs can either be extremely easy or terribly difficult depending on the damage though most is fairly easy to fix. (ex: you could just have to fold the metel over or you might have to replace the entire piece.)
i also know iron and some ancient steels (not modern steel) rusted incredibly fast so oiling and polishing was a regular activity before bed (like brushing your teeth) because of this knights clothing was almost always covered in oil; to solve this many knights painted their armour when it wasn't being used (for storage)

Hope that helps

Sorry if your perceived my previous post as hostile to you, it wasn't intended in such a way, only to the idea.

For what it's worth, maintenance of equipment is covered under Lifestyle Expenses (PHB, Chapter 5, page 157): "Furthermore, expenses cover the cost of maintaining your equipment so you can be ready when adventure next calls."

And under the textbox on Self-Sufficiency on page 159: "The expenses and lifestyles described in this chapter assume that you are spending your time between adventures in town, availing yourself of whatever services you can afford - paying for food and shelter, paying townspeople to sharpen your sword and repair your armor, and so on."

So, in the theater of the mind sense that this game uses, we're already doing all the maintenance necessary.

[1Forge]

These rules arn;t really for weapon care (though they do cover that for when your not in a town) really I'm trying to create rules for out of town. Also these will help me with ideas for how peoples inventorys will look (because now they wont only carry a swoard and food, they would be required to have oil,rags, sharpening stones, ect)
But the main reason I want these rules is for sundering. The previous edition rules for sundering were kinda dumb, and 5e dosent have them at all. Rules like these would change group plans in between cities and towns, and make them need a bit of downtime. This would also give more value to magical/masterwork items.

So basicly these rules are for periods of time when they cant go to a town and get things fixed up. Also this will help me create better sundering rules.