My sorcerer is underwhelming, so what can I do about it?

[Velaryon]

Hi Playgrounders, I'm hoping you guys can help me figure out why my sorcerer seems to be dragging the team down. We've only played one session, so maybe I just had bad luck, but I'm still pretty new to 5e so I'm hoping you guys can look over my character.

I've got a level 4 Tiefling sorcerer, and I rolled fantastic stats: Str 13, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 20. That seems really good to me. With my feat at level 4 I picked Resilient to add my proficiency bonus to Wisdom saves and shore up what could otherwise have been a big weak spot.

I went with the Wild Magic sorcerous origin because even though it's random it seems like a lot of fun. The DM pretty much has me roll for Wild Magic Surge every time I cast a spell, so that hasn't been a problem (although I have on occasion forgotten) to do so.

As for my spell list, here's what I'm packing so far:

Cantrips:
Chill Touch
Friends
Minor Illusion
Poison Spray
Prestidigitation (free for being a Tiefling)
Message

Level 1:
Burning Hands

Level 2:
Hold Person
Invisibility
Phantasmal Force
Suggestion

I can already tell one error I made, which was loading up too much on level 2 spells and not leaving myself enough versatility with my level 1 slots. Any suggestions on which spell I could drop from level 2, and what I should pick up at level 1?

That looked good to me on paper (except for the thing about not having enough level 1 spells), but during gameplay I found myself to be pretty ineffective compared to my party mates (a Ranger with the Horde Breaker ability and a battle master Fighter. There will also be an eldritch knight Fighter in the group, but he had to miss the first session so I don't know how I'll stack up against him.

My experience was that my damage spells were not very effective in comparison to what my party mates were doing. The enemies we fought were sometimes resistant to the elemental types I had, but even when that wasn't the case, they often had minimum damage higher than my maximum with most of my spells. I could sometimes remove enemies from combat with clever use of Phantasmal Force (the only spell that seems to be pulling its weight so far), but the rest either didn't come up (Hold Person) or weren't very effective (Poison Spray, Burning Hands).

So did I make poor choices, or was it just bad luck? What are some things I could do to be more effective in combat from here on out?

[1Forge]

Hi Playgrounders, I'm hoping you guys can help me figure out why my sorcerer seems to be dragging the team down. We've only played one session, so maybe I just had bad luck, but I'm still pretty new to 5e so I'm hoping you guys can look over my character.

I've got a level 4 Tiefling sorcerer, and I rolled fantastic stats: Str 13, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 20. That seems really good to me. With my feat at level 4 I picked Resilient to add my proficiency bonus to Wisdom saves and shore up what could otherwise have been a big weak spot.

I went with the Wild Magic sorcerous origin because even though it's random it seems like a lot of fun. The DM pretty much has me roll for Wild Magic Surge every time I cast a spell, so that hasn't been a problem (although I have on occasion forgotten) to do so.

As for my spell list, here's what I'm packing so far:

Cantrips:
Chill Touch
Friends
Minor Illusion
Poison Spray
Prestidigitation (free for being a Tiefling)
Message

Level 1:
Burning Hands

Level 2:
Hold Person
Invisibility
Phantasmal Force
Suggestion

I can already tell one error I made, which was loading up too much on level 2 spells and not leaving myself enough versatility with my level 1 slots. Any suggestions on which spell I could drop from level 2, and what I should pick up at level 1?

That looked good to me on paper (except for the thing about not having enough level 1 spells), but during gameplay I found myself to be pretty ineffective compared to my party mates (a Ranger with the Horde Breaker ability and a battle master Fighter. There will also be an eldritch knight Fighter in the group, but he had to miss the first session so I don't know how I'll stack up against him.

My experience was that my damage spells were not very effective in comparison to what my party mates were doing. The enemies we fought were sometimes resistant to the elemental types I had, but even when that wasn't the case, they often had minimum damage higher than my maximum with most of my spells. I could sometimes remove enemies from combat with clever use of Phantasmal Force (the only spell that seems to be pulling its weight so far), but the rest either didn't come up (Hold Person) or weren't very effective (Poison Spray, Burning Hands).

So did I make poor choices, or was it just bad luck? What are some things I could do to be more effective in combat from here on out?

I feel you. i play a bard halfling and I feel useless too.

I would recommend getting some more fire-y spells, also your stats are pretty good so consider multiclassing to something that would fit your character but also make a unique guy (mabye a cleric your party needs one of those, or a bard for social interaction.)

If you dont want to multiclass play your strengths; you have a high CHA so do some fancy smooth talking in non-combat encounters.

Finally create an interesting quirk, if you have a nice DM with a good sense of humor you will be rewarded with opportunities to use it in the story. (EX: my bard has a sheild that he always throws in front of spells to protect the rest of the party. When fighting a wild cultist wizard I was given opportunities to chuck my sheild in front of our casters to save them. Another example is when I played a human bard/paladin I had an obsession with peg legs and I got two magic peg legs, later I lost my foot to a deck of many things and I replaced it with my super magic peg leg.)

[Madfellow]

Cantrips:
Chill Touch
Friends
Minor Illusion
Poison Spray
Prestidigitation (free for being a Tiefling)
Message


One thing: Tieflings don't get prestidigitation, they get thaumaturgy. Also, at level 3 tieflings get Hellish Rebuke, so you should add that to your list as well (along with the "slot" to cast it with).

Other thing: I would suggest erasing every spell from your list that you feel hasn't worked out so far, and then starting over from scratch. Look over the sorcerer list and pick out the spells that you think would work well for your game and your character concept.

[Capac Amaru]

I'm playing a 2 Sorcerer / 2 Fighter, I feel your pain.

1st: Cantrips
At fifth level attack cantrips pick up another damage dice, which will bump up your general damage output. I use mostly firebolt and shocking grasp, but use whatever is best for you / the situations you find yourself in.

2nd: Spells

I got a lot of use out of burning hands and sleep early on, but they are starting to drop off in effectiveness. You want to focus on a couple of big nuke options, and a few utility / control options, but your cantrips should be your standard damage output.

3rd: Metamagic

Make sure you are making the most out of your metamagic options and sorcery points.

[SharkForce]

not knowing your metamagic options kinda makes it hard to give great advice.

but to start:

level 1:

silent image is generally pretty handy. you can pair it with minor illusion for sound if needed. in the long run, i like shield, but for now you probably want to spend your spell slots on something other than not getting killed, as that is your primary resources. honestly, unless your DM is giving you a full respec, i wouldn't spend *too* much time mucking around with level 1 spells anyways.

magic missile can be a very reliable source of damage. it isn't flashy, and the damage isn't high, but you always hit and very few things have any protection against it. i'm not sure i'd spend a re-selection on this unless you get a full respec though, since i wouldn't consider this to be a major priority.

level 2:

web. you can CC a large area of enemies with a save that many will struggle with, and while it is a strength check to escape, there are 2 important things to note. first, it's a strength *check* and not a strength save, and second it takes an action... so they lose an action for trying, and probably only have about a 50/50 chance at best to succeed. eventually, i would also consider misty step and mirror image as useful defensive options that don't use up your concentration slot.

scorching ray. you appear to be concerned that your damage is low. this spell should solve that problem.

enhance ability can be a fairly versatile general-purpose buff spell.

but really, we do need to know what you chose for metamagic. also, what do you want to do with this character? do you envision them being a nuker? crowd control? handling all the social situations? etc.

[CantigThimble]

Also, one trick if you like wild magic is using wild magic surge on random skill checks so you can trigger wild magic again. Our halfling sorcerer has been allowed to use his movement on random performance checks to do this every turn.

[1Forge]

Also, one trick if you like wild magic is using wild magic surge on random skill checks so you can trigger wild magic again. Our halfling sorcerer has been allowed to use his movement on random performance checks to do this every turn.

Thats hilarious.
"my halfling starts juggeling"
"okay everything around you turns purple....roll...then explodes"

[Velaryon]

One thing: Tieflings don't get prestidigitation, they get thaumaturgy. Also, at level 3 tieflings get Hellish Rebuke, so you should add that to your list as well (along with the "slot" to cast it with).

Indeed. Thanks for catching my mistake!


Other thing: I would suggest erasing every spell from your list that you feel hasn't worked out so far, and then starting over from scratch. Look over the sorcerer list and pick out the spells that you think would work well for your game and your character concept.

It's pretty early yet, so I don't know for sure if I've got any true duds or if I was just unlucky in the things I came up against. Are there any really great level 1 and 2 sorcerer spells I should keep an eye out for?


I'm playing a 2 Sorcerer / 2 Fighter, I feel your pain.

1st: Cantrips
At fifth level attack cantrips pick up another damage dice, which will bump up your general damage output. I use mostly firebolt and shocking grasp, but use whatever is best for you / the situations you find yourself in.

2nd: Spells

I got a lot of use out of burning hands and sleep early on, but they are starting to drop off in effectiveness. You want to focus on a couple of big nuke options, and a few utility / control options, but your cantrips should be your standard damage output.

3rd: Metamagic

Make sure you are making the most out of your metamagic options and sorcery points.

My thought process in choosing my cantrips was that Chill Touch would work at range and help neutralize healing, while Poison Spray would help with anyone who got close. Burning Hands could help me target multiple enemies while Phantasmal Force and Hold Person could help neutralize foes. But I feel like my offense has been really lacking compared to my party mates. Do I just need to be patient til my attack cantrips all pick up another die at level 5?

For Metamagic I currently have Quickened Spell and Distant Spell. Quicken seems awesome, but I'm not so sure about Distant. What in your experience has come in really handy?

[SharkForce]

distant spell is not so great. if your DM is allowing a respec, i would consider twin for damage. best used with firebolt, but any single-target damaging cantrip can do the job somewhat. twin it, and hit two targets instead of one. it basically doubles your damage output for the cost of 1 sorcery point, while quicken costs 2.

(i wouldn't recommend poison spray, poison is one of the most common resistant/immune damage types... i would consider it to be worse than fire, honestly)

(chill touch is ok, but not great. the problem is that it *only* shines when the enemy has healing).

a second damage die at level 5 will sort of help, but not in comparison; everyone else will be getting another attack. expect to stay behind in damage until you can start to afford to always spend resources (either sorcerer points to quicken a firebolt and twin another, or spell slots so that you can throw around scorching ray and fireball more often). honestly, casters in general don't get great damage unless they almost completely revolve around it.

that being said, you're looking at 3 classes where basically the main thing they bring to the table is damage. they can use skills sorta decently, they are pretty tough, but mostly their class features provide them with damage. they aren't going to be flying any time soon. you get that option in one more level. they aren't going to teleport any time soon. you could already have your first one, if you wanted. they don't get to crowd control groups of enemies, or control peoples' minds, and so on.

now, you've unfortunately chosen the caster class that basically has the least options in terms of spells, so you have to choose carefully which of those sorts of things you want to be able to do. on the flip side, when the situation gets dire, you do have the tools to do more damage than is typical for a full spellcaster. you just have to save it up for the right situation the same as the fighters need to save their action surge.

[lordshadowisle]

I have played a draconic sorc to the end of HOTDQ. I found it to be relatively effective, though my assessment is that the sorc is best played not as a damage dealer, but as a buffer/controller. Here are my thoughts:

The best metamagic options, by quite a bit, are twin spell, quicken, and heighten (in no order). Distant spell is weak, I can't really think of a situation where it is a game-changer. Quicken is ok, though I find it expensive for such a narrow ability. You're really paying 2sp for an extra cantrip, which is poor economy. I also find the extra damage meh.

I took twin spell and heighten. Twin spell is extremely powerful and versatile, though expensive. The best applications are for applying twin concentration spells, which is a class unique ability. Twin levitate and twin haste (very important spell to get at lvl 3) can provide helpful control/buffs to your party. You can also increase the number of targets for hold person or phantasmal force. I use leftover points for cantrips; twin shocking grasp for emergency disengages. Heighten is also quite powerful, though it only becomes usable a few levels later due to its cost. Use it to cast your must-succeed spells against hard targets; I've used it to heighten suggestion against boss-like creatures to avoid combat.

I would think a wild sorc, especially after level 6, to be a good debuffer, due to bend luck. Even then, I think it's weaker than taking heighten outright.

Some thoughts on your character:
Don't go in with the expectation of dealing good sustained damage, since you'll be relying on cantrips for damage most of the time! I wouldn't even waste slots on damage spells unless it makes a significant difference (urgent damage on a powerful enemy, or AOE to remove mobs) that a fighter can't do more efficiently. Crowd control, buffs, debuffs, and utility are probably better uses of your slots. Save your slots to solve problems only you can solve! Only when you get more spell slots to play with should you think about spending slots for extra damage.

A low level caster has limited spells, slots, and spell points, so it's not surprising you'll feel weak. I'll advise you to wait for level 5, where things start to get interesting. Key spells are fireball (first true AOE), hypnotic pattern, slow, haste*(weaker, since you didn't take twin spell). Level 5 also doubles the power of your cantrips, so it'll help somewhat. Before then, you might as well use a crossbow for damage.

Resilient on wis saves is probably a bad choice. An offensive or utility option is more useful than a defensive option, unless it is sorely needed (eg, extremely poor AC, con save for casters with con prof). Furthermore you have tides of chaos to get adv on your saves! The only reason why it isn't an outright terrible choice is your absurd stats, which are maxed for the important stats.

[Kane0]

-Snip-

I DM an underwhelming sorcerer, I feel your pain.

Try some of these:

Swap Poison spray for shocking grasp or thunderclap.

Swap Chill touch for a non-fire damage cantrip. Ray of frost is a decent choice, and the reduction in speed always happens unlike the removal of healing.

Swap burning hands for magic missile or maybe thunderwave

Swap out one of your 2nd level spells for scorching ray

Swap out either phantasmal force or hold person for a level 1 spell, they kind of double up. Earthen grasp and web are also solid substitutes for these spells.

Consider swapping Resilient for Warcaster or Spell sniper, picking up Eldritch blast which allows you to swap out a ranged damage cantrip if you want more utility cantrips like Mold Earth.

Ideally you want no more than 2 damage spells of a given level and the rest defense/utility, each one being prime choices for metamagic abuse (which you should be doing a lot of).

Spells are capable of many things (like enhance ability and silent image) are solid choices given your limited selection, and don't forget that you can use lower level spells in higher slots to get a significant boost (scorching ray is very good at this).

On metamagic, distant isn't really as good as say empower, twin or quicken. Subtle is also very handy but not offensive.

As soon as you hit 5, fireball. Your value to the group will increase phenomenally. At that point you start switching all your lower level damage spells to either single target damage or utility spells, since fireball and whatever you choose later to replace it will become your go-to damage AoE when the bruisers can't do it.

[SharkForce]

twin haste will be somewhat decent for a while. i wouldn't consider it that great in the long term.

one extra attack is nice and all, or since it is twinned, two extra attacks... but that's basically an extra 10ish damage per round at high levels, less at level 5 unless their attack attribute is maxed and they have appropriate feats. in specific situations (you've got a high-ish AC character in the front, no enemies can get past them, and an extra 2 points of AC will make that character nearly impossible to hit, or you're fighting an enemy that is literally immune to magic) haste can be a decent choice.

buffing isn't good in 5th edition, even if you have twin spell. it is just less bad.

on a side note... i disagree that bend luck is not as good as heighten.

both are single target and only work on one save. but bend luck costs less, gives you a use for your reaction, doesn't lock out using other metamagic on that spell, can be used after the first round, can be used *after* you see the roll, and does more at the extreme ends of bonuses, which is where you want to be aiming your spells anyways. bend luck also stacks with any other source of disadvantage (for example, restrained creatures have disadvantage on dexterity saving throws, creatures with the poisoned condition have disadvantage on all saving throws, and a few spells can cause disadvantage as well; bestow curse being the main one that comes to mind). bend luck can *also* be used on things that you personally did not cast as a spell; you can bend luck on a monster's roll to avoid being poisoned by one of your ally's weapons, for example (which would be 2 sorcery points for disadvantage on every saving throw that monster makes, not just a single saving throw against a single spell that you cast and augment in advance).

unfortunately, sorcerers are hard-pressed to get the spell selection to make it work in their favour as much as might be desired, but it is still a crazy-strong ability to be able to modify saves as a numeric modifier.

[umbrellasamurai]

First off, those are some amazing ability scores, so you obviously have that going for you.

That said, if you were hoping to be a prime damage dealer, you certainly aren't set up for that in terms of spell selection to some degree your archetype. Assuming you're allowed to swap some things out:

Cantrips
- You mentioned casting Poison Spray if enemies get too close, but you had best be avoiding close-combat at all costs given how squishy you are. If someone *does* manage to get close, Shocking Grasp is a much better bet, as it prevents the target from taking opportunity-attacks. Basically, you shock them and then gtfo.
- Fire Bolt would get you slightly higher at-will damage


1st-level Spells
- Sleep is a handy crowd-control spell. Keep in mind that unconscious targets have attacks made against them with advantage and melee attacks auto-crit (for when it makes sense to strike). At later levels, you'll want first to knock some HP off a group to get mileage out of it, though.

2nd-level Spells
- Like someone mentioned above, Scorching Ray would be a solid damage spell.

Also, if you really want to go from being 'meh' to bestial in the at-will damage dept, one two Warlock levels would get you Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast -- very potent, given your maxed-out CHA. You'd also get a few spells in the process. EDIT: Though, you'd have to commit to investing in those two levels.

Lastly, I feel like you would've been better off going with a different feat than Resilient. It's most helpful for casters if you choose CON, for the concentration benefits. Elemental Adept would've been a solid choice, IMO.

[Zevox]

My experience was that my damage spells were not very effective in comparison to what my party mates were doing.
Well, yeah. Your damage spells are cantrips and Burning Hands. Cantrips are a nice way for spellcasters to contribute when they're out of spell slots or don't want to use a spell slot on whatever they're fighting, but aside from a Warlock with Eldritch Blast, they won't often stack up to a physical character doing their weapon attacks. Having Poison Spray be one of them probably doesn't help, since it's a very commonly resisted (or even immune to) damage type, and it allows a constitution save to completely negate it. And Burning Hands is a 1st-level AoE spell, so it'll only do so much, and if you fight anything with fire resistance, it'll be pretty poor.

(Technically Phantasmal Force is also a damage spell, but its damage is low for its spell level. It's more the sort of spell you get creative with than the sort you just outright kill things with.)

If you want to be doing damage, pick up Magic Missile and Scorching Ray, as someone else suggested. As you are now, your spell selection emphasizes disabling enemies, not hurting them, so you've basically put yourself in more of a support role than a blasting role. Which is a perfectly viable route to take, mind you, but if your problem is that you feel like you're not contributing if your damage output looks low, then it may not be the way that will be the most satisfying to you personally.


Also, if you really want to go from being 'meh' to bestial in the at-will damage dept, one Warlock level would get you Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast -- very potent, given your maxed-out CHA. You'd also get a few spells in the process.
That requires two Warlock levels, actually. Warlocks don't get invocations until level 2, which means no Agonizing Blast with just a one-level dip.

[JAL_1138]

As an aside to the halfling bard upthread who also feels underwhelming, I'm assuming low-level because bards take off pretty quick once third-level spells open up, abd really once more second-level slots open up. Hold Person and Heat Metal are fantastic. Dissonant Whispers is great if you have a rogue in the party. Invisibility is a great buff for the party rogue, too. Sleep is massively useful at lower levels. Shatter's not half bad. Cloud of Daggers is middlin' on its own but combos great with grappling. Thunderwave isn't stellar but is a decent enough AoE. Pick up Healing Word for a ranged emergency heal. Don't forget your Inspiration ability. And remember, other than lack of Thieves' Tools expertise (though you can pick up proficiency via background if the DM requires it for lockpicking), you're ahead of the rogue as the best skillmonkey.

[Velaryon]

Now we're getting to the type of feedback I need most! I will see if the DM will let me drop Distant Spell in favor of Twin.

It sounds like I would be best served by accepting that my teammates are better at dealing damage, and focusing myself toward battlefield control, buffing, and utility magic. I am also the default party face thanks to my charisma and skills, though I didn't really seek that role.



In case it matters, here's a bit of info on my character's personality: my sorcerer Nicodemus (I couldn't think of a name and had just finished listening to the audiobook of Jim Butcher's Death Masks) is a true neutral tiefling who kind of has a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" outlook on life. He grew up poor and scrounging for every copper (urchin background), and is used to stealing and making a living off his cleverness and charm. That leaves him with a strong craving for wealth, and a desire to spend big whenever it comes into his hands (like people who struggle to get by, then blow their entire tax return on a big new TV as soon as the check clears). He is cunning but doesn't think ahead to the greater consequences of his actions sometimes, and isn't a good long-term planner. In gameplay terms, that might translate to blowing his big spells and/or sorcery points early in the day, until he learns better after being stuck relying on cantrips for later encounters.

[ChubbyRain]

One thing that some classes do very well in 5e is defying stereotypes for some classes.

Wizards can tank.

Rogues do this fantastically well by focusing on Strength rather than Dexterity.

Sorcerers do this fantastically well by focusing on buff/crowd control rather than damage.

Pick up a damaging cantrip from your dragon type and a level one spell but outside of that? Go for buff/control.

Stereotypically sorcerers are all about boom... Well the 5e Sorcerer excells at not going boom.

Twin Spell Enlarge/Reduce (use enlarge more often)

Careful Spell Sleet Storm! (When you get 3rd level spells). This is just fricken nasty and mean.

[umbrellasamurai]

That requires two Warlock levels, actually. Warlocks don't get invocations until level 2, which means no Agonizing Blast with just a one-level dip.

Ah, good catch.

[Safety Sword]

Ah, good catch.

Also, each Level you don't take in sorcerer delays your access to higher level spells which is where most of your power will actually come from.

Consider taking spells along the same theme and then take the Elemental Adept feat for that element type.

It's a small but consistent boost to damage, but feats you have, since your CHA is high already.

[chainer1216]

The party's fighter here! One of the reasons Vals feeling the crunch is because both the ranger an I rolled stats comparable to his and then picked up the feats that allowed us power attack options, so we were getting huge damage bonuses when we hit, and as he said we ran into enemies resistant or immune to his spells(bearded devils) so it was definitely a rough start.

[Safety Sword]

The party's fighter here! One of the reasons Vals feeling the crunch is because both the ranger an I rolled stats comparable to his and then picked up the feats that allowed us power attack options, so we were getting huge damage bonuses when we hit, and as he said we ran into enemies resistant or immune to his spells(bearded devils) so it was definitely a rough start.

Any reason to assume that those resistances/immunities are going to become less of a factor as the campaign progresses?

If not, even stronger case for Elemental Adept.

[PhantomRenegade]

If you are looking for damage the spells above the bell curve are, Chromatic Orb as a single target spell, and level 1 (you only need to buy the diamond once), shatter for area and scorching ray for singleish target in the second spell area, and fireball as a level 3 spell... just fireball, its ridiculous, it has no competition.

[Safety Sword]

If you are looking for damage the spells above the bell curve are, Chromatic Orb as a single target spell, and level 1 (you only need to buy the diamond once), shatter for area and scorching ray for singleish target in the second spell area, and fireball as a level 3 spell... just fireball, its ridiculous, it has no competition.

A lot of the iconic D&D spells are above the power curve. That's why people continue to use them ;)

[DireSickFish]

Enlarge/reduce is a good buff until you can pick up haste. you can twin enlarge on the fighter and ranger to give them both an extra d4 to damage and some other benefits. Haste twinned will make them absolute beasts as long as you can keep the concentration up. If you've already got the CHA that frees you up to get war caster and resilience con.

[SharkForce]

enlarge/reduce is not a good buff to tide you over until haste. you're adding probably 3-4 damage per turn per target, on average, and it doesn't even come with the movement and AC side of things.

if you want to make the other people shine while feeling you're also useful, look towards your CC options. web is a hilarious buff to a ranged ranger (because he doesn't need to go into it to deal full damage), and means that your front line won't have as many people attacking them.

[ChubbyRain]

Enlarge is fantastic for two reasons.

You make your allies large, they can take up space in areas so that it stops enemies from moving around as easy (actually that may be a DM call thing, need to check the DMG).

And you can twin it. 2d4 damage/round may not seen like much but it works on any weapon damage so go ahead and give it to an archer.

Enlarge can be used as a decent battle field control, gives damage, and stays relevant all through the game as a low level spell to spam.

Also, funny enough, from what I see on my spell cards enlarge doesn't go away once the target drops to 0. If the BSF falls you can still use them as half cover or full cover from attacks. Not to bad...

[Capac Amaru]

Enlarge/Reduce can be good out of battle as well.

My party ambushed a caravan, and the drivers charged off with the carriage. The wizard cast enlarge on the carriage, making it too big for the horse to comfortably pull, so it slowed down enough for the monk and rogue to jump on board.

[SharkForce]

as control, it is competing with web (it also does a great job of stopping a horse-drawn carriage). as damage, it is competing with just casting a twinned firebolt. 2d10 to two targets is pretty easy to get out of a cantrip. that isn't *quite* as much as you'll get if you manage to get your twinned enlarge out before either of the targets attack and the fight goes a bit longer, but it is front-loaded, and it costs 1 sorcerery point only instead of 2 sorcery points and a level 2 spell slot. not casting enlarge in this case is like getting a free level 2 spell slot and a sorcery point. (alternately, you can quicken and spend 2 sorcery points for a single-target burst, or spend 3 sorcery points to quicken one and twin another for even a bit more damage, while still expending fewer total points)

and there are just as many situations where you don't want your party members to be larger. fighting in a room with low ceilings or narrow halls? enlarge is a terrible idea.

[Malifice]

The party's fighter here! One of the reasons Vals feeling the crunch is because both the ranger an I rolled stats comparable to his and then picked up the feats that allowed us power attack options, so we were getting huge damage bonuses when we hit, and as he said we ran into enemies resistant or immune to his spells(bearded devils) so it was definitely a rough start.

With a BM Fighter and a Hunter Ranger, both packing great weapons with GWM...

Twinned Haste all the way!

[DireSickFish]

as control, it is competing with web (it also does a great job of stopping a horse-drawn carriage). as damage, it is competing with just casting a twinned firebolt. 2d10 to two targets is pretty easy to get out of a cantrip. that isn't *quite* as much as you'll get if you manage to get your twinned enlarge out before either of the targets attack and the fight goes a bit longer, but it is front-loaded, and it costs 1 sorcerery point only instead of 2 sorcery points and a level 2 spell slot. not casting enlarge in this case is like getting a free level 2 spell slot and a sorcery point. (alternately, you can quicken and spend 2 sorcery points for a single-target burst, or spend 3 sorcery points to quicken one and twin another for even a bit more damage, while still expending fewer total points)

and there are just as many situations where you don't want your party members to be larger. fighting in a room with low ceilings or narrow halls? enlarge is a terrible idea.

Twinned firebolt only lasts 1 round, twinned enlarge should last you the whole fight. Then you can just cast regular firebolt the rest of the fight. I mentioned it specifically for the party set up they have, 2 melee guys that get a lot of attacks. The ranger has hoard breaker so will be getting 2 attacks and the fighter might only get 1 attack but he'll be action surging eventually for 2. Enlarge reduce is best with a monk or two weapon fighter as it scales best with iterative attacks.

Web is good but it stays in 1 place after you cast it (which is fine for control) whereas the fighter and ranger will have the buff wherever they go.

If he really just wants more damage then scorching ray and chromatic orb would be his go to spells. Especially since he can get advantage ont he chromatic orb attack roll from wild mage, making it likely to crit more often.

[SharkForce]

enlarge person adds +2.5 damage per hit. you should be hitting fairly close to 1/2 the time, so assuming you get 2 attacks, it is adding about 2.5 damage per round per character (probably slightly more, hitting 1/2 the time is slightly low). so, at level 5, it's adding something like 6 damage per round when twinned. though actually, that isn't accounting for -5 to hit from GWM or sharpshooter, so probably make that less than 50% accuracy.

so let's instead consider a twinned firebolt. it will do on average 22 damage if it hits (slightly better if proper feats are taken), which is again going to happen about 1/2 the time. in this case, it actually will be more than 50% though because there is no -5 to hit being voluntarily added.

so 11 damage now, vs 3.5 damage per round for the rest of the fight. fights typically last 3-4 rounds; so you're getting something like +6 to +12 damage total over the entire fight, but until round 3 you've basically only broken even, and the firebolt damage was front-loaded (which is nice, because the sooner you kill an enemy the less damage they deal) and cost a lot fewer resources. if you go after the warriors, you only break even on round 3, and pull ahead on round 4 if it even gets to round 4.

for level 3 or 4, you just cut both amounts in half basically (warriors attack once instead of twice, firebolt deals 1d10 instead of 2d10).

and i don't care if it lasts the whole fight. the firebolt damage is in all likelihood also going to last the whole fight, except it was delivered all up-front. both cost one action either way, but the firebolt costs significantly fewer resources (in particular, it doesn't cost your highest level spell slot *and* half of your sorcery points for the day) and is almost as good even if the fight goes relatively long. heck, for the resource cost, you could sacrifice the level 2 spell slot and upgrade those firebolts in round 2-4 to twinned firebolts (costs no additional actions in subsequent rounds) and since you're spending as you go, you might even end the fight before blowing all those resources and still have some left, so please don't tell me it's going to pull ahead, because it won't.

the CC isn't great. the damage isn't great. it just isn't a great spell. it's moderately decent, and for a wizard, that might be good enough to throw it in the spellbook. for a sorcerer, ditch it. you only have room for spells that are strong choices the majority of the time, and that does not describe enlarge/reduce.

[ChubbyRain]

enlarge person adds +2.5 damage per hit. you should be hitting fairly close to 1/2 the time, so assuming you get 2 attacks, it is adding about 2.5 damage per round per character (probably slightly more, hitting 1/2 the time is slightly low). so, at level 5, it's adding something like 6 damage per round when twinned. though actually, that isn't accounting for -5 to hit from GWM or sharpshooter, so probably make that less than 50% accuracy.

so let's instead consider a twinned firebolt. it will do on average 22 damage if it hits (slightly better if proper feats are taken), which is again going to happen about 1/2 the time. in this case, it actually will be more than 50% though because there is no -5 to hit being voluntarily added.

so 11 damage now, vs 3.5 damage per round for the rest of the fight. fights typically last 3-4 rounds; so you're getting something like +6 to +12 damage total over the entire fight, but until round 3 you've basically only broken even, and the firebolt damage was front-loaded (which is nice, because the sooner you kill an enemy the less damage they deal) and cost a lot fewer resources. if you go after the warriors, you only break even on round 3, and pull ahead on round 4 if it even gets to round 4.

for level 3 or 4, you just cut both amounts in half basically (warriors attack once instead of twice, firebolt deals 1d10 instead of 2d10).

and i don't care if it lasts the whole fight. the firebolt damage is in all likelihood also going to last the whole fight, except it was delivered all up-front. both cost one action either way, but the firebolt costs significantly fewer resources (in particular, it doesn't cost your highest level spell slot *and* half of your sorcery points for the day) and is almost as good even if the fight goes relatively long. heck, for the resource cost, you could sacrifice the level 2 spell slot and upgrade those firebolts in round 2-4 to twinned firebolts (costs no additional actions in subsequent rounds) and since you're spending as you go, you might even end the fight before blowing all those resources and still have some left, so please don't tell me it's going to pull ahead, because it won't.

the CC isn't great. the damage isn't great. it just isn't a great spell. it's moderately decent, and for a wizard, that might be good enough to throw it in the spellbook. for a sorcerer, ditch it. you only have room for spells that are strong choices the majority of the time, and that does not describe enlarge/reduce.


Enlarge damage dice doubles on a critical, that's worth mentioning. At higher levels also that on the fighter and they will thank you.

Really a sorcerer only needs one or two damage dealing spells every couple of levels, the rest can be anything you want.

Currently I have Ice Knife and Burning Hands as my damage dealing spells (1st+) and all BC/Buff spells for the rest and things are going awesomely.

[SharkForce]

firebolt damage also doubles on a critical. and again, you aren't giving up a level 2 spell slot and a spell known to access it.

it needs to start competing better with my "i don't care enough to spend real resources" option (ie cantrips) before i start spending resources on it, let alone use one of the sorcerer's precious spell known slots on it. worth adding to the spellbook some day in the distant future for a wizard when i have some spare gold, just in case. not worth touching with a 10 foot pole for a sorcerer.

[ChubbyRain]

firebolt damage also doubles on a critical. and again, you aren't giving up a level 2 spell slot and a spell known to access it.

it needs to start competing better with my "i don't care enough to spend real resources" option (ie cantrips) before i start spending resources on it, let alone use one of the sorcerer's precious spell known slots on it. worth adding to the spellbook some day in the distant future for a wizard when i have some spare gold, just in case. not worth touching with a 10 foot pole for a sorcerer.

Twin firebolt has a chance of doing nothing, twined enlarge always does something.

I'm not saying firebolt isn't a good option, but Enlarge is not as bad as you think it is.

Plus fire resistance/immunity is pretty common.

[JAL_1138]

Echoing Malifice earlier that when it becomes available twinned Haste on the Fighter and Ranger will be an excellent buff. I'd open every fight with it, if it were me, as long as I had enough spell slots and metamagic points left.

[ChubbyRain]

Echoing Malifice earlier that when it becomes available twinned Haste on the Fighter and Ranger will be an excellent buff. I'd open every fight with it, if it were me, as long as I had enough spell slots and metamagic points left.

One thing you have to worry about.

If the spell dies end early, loss of concentration for whatever reason, your Fighter and Ranger both lose a turn in the middle of battle.

Not a huge problem but haste may not always be a good idea.

[SharkForce]

Twin firebolt has a chance of doing nothing, twined enlarge always does something.

I'm not saying firebolt isn't a good option, but Enlarge is not as bad as you think it is.

Plus fire resistance/immunity is pretty common.

since enlarge doesn't make it impossible for you to miss, twinned enlarge may not do anything meaningful even if it technically does something. yeah, it'll do something, but unless that something is worth the action, spell slot, and sorcery points, it still isn't worth casting.

most of the time, enlarge is not worth it. occasionally, it will be a good option (say, if your fighter absolutely needs to be able to grapple a huge creature for some reason). and as a niche spell, it is worth considering for a wizard's spell book. for a sorcerer who gets extremely limited spells known, it simply is not worth it.

WotC took the time to make sure the casters buffing themselves to invulnerability was basically impossible. unfortunately, along the way they also wound up making it not particularly worthwhile to buff *anyone* at all. the result is that typically, buffs (even twinned buffs) are not usually a good choice of action (there are exceptions, of course... bless can target enough people and offers enough of a benefit to be well worth the level 1 slot. whether or not it is worth the concentration slot will change from situation to situation. polymorph can turn a level 7 wizard with no remaining spell slots into a level 7 giant ape which can contribute to a fight just fine, especially if you prepared in advance by getting plate barding for it or something like that. most of the time, though, buffs just don't do enough).

[PhantomRenegade]

Enlarge/reduce becomes slightly better scorching ray and shatter, when you factor in abilities that allow the ranger and the fighter to do more than two attacks per turn but really there's something to consider and that is how it feels to the player, when you read the fluff for the sorcerer you don't think "oh this guy is totally the buff class, i can see that", if you read the first entry of the sorcerer class its literally all fluff about blasting, so between making the player fill a role he didnt want to and being slightly less optimised you might as well just let him blast away.

[DireSickFish]

The way it sounds both the fighter and ranger have GWF, so the extra damage will help them drop a creature which means they can use there bonus action to get off another attack. Not sure why they'd be missing 50% of the time if they have higher stats for there level than usual? I've noticed that even at low levels you tend to hit more often than not in this system. Also not sure where you're getting 11 damage from firebolt, is that rounding up from the 1d10+5? You properly used 2.5 bonus damage when saying that's how much the enlarge adds per hit.

Twinning firebolt also only applies that damage to a different target. Which could be nice for softening targets up so you can get GWF feat proc in cleaving. Granted I suppose you could quicken to stack ont he same target. The enlarge damage will be applied to whoever is the greatest threat, because the fighter and ranger will always be picking there targets. Crit damage shouldn't be considered because just like you can roll a 20 to crit you can roll a 1 to miss so they balance out.

So in 1 round we have 3 attacks (Ranger 2, Fighter 1). From play experience 75% chance to hit seems far more likly, especially with the buff stats the party has. That gives you 3d4*0.75= 3*2.5*0.75=5.625 bonus damage a round. Firebolt is 1d10+5 with equal chance to hit and you could get 2 twinned or quickened ones off for the same cost of sorcery points so we have (2d10+10)*0.75=15.75

So from this it takes you 3 rounds to get more damage (5.625*3=16.875) from enlarge than you get from twinning or quickening fire-bolts. So for any extended fight (which is when you should be using sorcery points, not for easy fights) enlarge will give you more damage.

I'm not saying enlarge is the best possible spell and Haste quickly renders it obsolete, unless you find yourself loosing concentration a lot as that lost turn in a 3 man party could spell disaster.

Hmm lets see what bonus damage haste actually gives considering same to hit chance and two greatswords with 20 strength. 4d6+10*0.75=(4*3.5+10)*0.75=18, dang that's a lot of damage even before figuring out the GWF damage bonus tradeoffs.

[SharkForce]

your hit chance against a typical enemy will generally be around 60-70% (there will, of course, be outliers)

both characters are noted as taking -5 to hit for +10 to damage. so make that 35-45% instead. note that the ranger is merely noted as "power attacking", not "using GWM" (so it's quite possibly sharpshooter, and does not get bonus attacks on criticals or KO'ing an enemy).

so yeah, 50% hit chance seems perfectly fine to me. even with effectively a +2 to their attack and damage rolls.

as to why firebolt is doing 11 damage, that's because the assumed level was 5 (which is also why with a 50% hit rate enlarge adds +2.5 per round). at level 5, you get 2d10 with no attribute modifier (even if you were a draconic sorcerer, which this particular character is explicitly not). if you want to find the numbers for level 4, like i said, just cut them in half for both the the warriors and the sorcerer. strictly speaking, if you want to assume 75% base chance to hit, we really should be making the sorcerer damage higher though, because the fighters are taking -5 to hit, and that -5 doesn't boost the +d4 damage they're getting in any way.

and as noted, up-front damage is *better* than damage over time. *eventually* the enlarge effect will do more damage. but right now, this turn, the firebolt may kill one or two targets immediately, not 2 turns from now. or it might set them up to be killed by the GWM fighter, which has a much higher chance of giving a bonus attack because the damage you dealt is much higher than the enlarge.

and again, we're talking about spending *one* sorcery point as compared to two sorcerery points and a level 2 slot. if we want to compare equal resources, it should be a quickened scorching ray followed by a firebolt for damage, all of which is once again up-front rather than delayed over several rounds.

twinned enlarge struggles to compete with twinned firebolt, which by the most generous comparison i can make costs 1/4 the amount. the alarm bells should be sounding off in your head when i say that. you should not be spending 4 times the resources (or more) to get a slightly better result. any spell that struggles to compete with your cantrips is a spell that has no place in a sorcerer's spells known list, even if it turns out to be just a hair better. when that spell is also the highest level of spell you can cast, that just makes it even worse. if you are going to throw your highest level spell slot at a fight, it had better swing that fight in a big way. giving a small bonus to damage does not fit that description.

[ImSAMazing]

Hi Playgrounders, I'm hoping you guys can help me figure out why my sorcerer seems to be dragging the team down. We've only played one session, so maybe I just had bad luck, but I'm still pretty new to 5e so I'm hoping you guys can look over my character.

I've got a level 4 Tiefling sorcerer, and I rolled fantastic stats: Str 13, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 20. That seems really good to me. With my feat at level 4 I picked Resilient to add my proficiency bonus to Wisdom saves and shore up what could otherwise have been a big weak spot.

I went with the Wild Magic sorcerous origin because even though it's random it seems like a lot of fun. The DM pretty much has me roll for Wild Magic Surge every time I cast a spell, so that hasn't been a problem (although I have on occasion forgotten) to do so.

As for my spell list, here's what I'm packing so far:

Cantrips:
Chill Touch
Friends
Minor Illusion
Poison Spray
Prestidigitation (free for being a Tiefling)
Message

Level 1:
Burning Hands

Level 2:
Hold Person
Invisibility
Phantasmal Force
Suggestion

I can already tell one error I made, which was loading up too much on level 2 spells and not leaving myself enough versatility with my level 1 slots. Any suggestions on which spell I could drop from level 2, and what I should pick up at level 1?

That looked good to me on paper (except for the thing about not having enough level 1 spells), but during gameplay I found myself to be pretty ineffective compared to my party mates (a Ranger with the Horde Breaker ability and a battle master Fighter. There will also be an eldritch knight Fighter in the group, but he had to miss the first session so I don't know how I'll stack up against him.

My experience was that my damage spells were not very effective in comparison to what my party mates were doing. The enemies we fought were sometimes resistant to the elemental types I had, but even when that wasn't the case, they often had minimum damage higher than my maximum with most of my spells. I could sometimes remove enemies from combat with clever use of Phantasmal Force (the only spell that seems to be pulling its weight so far), but the rest either didn't come up (Hold Person) or weren't very effective (Poison Spray, Burning Hands).

So did I make poor choices, or was it just bad luck? What are some things I could do to be more effective in combat from here on out?

Just wait. Your cantrips will scale, so will your spell slots. If I had learned 1 thing from being a spell caster from lvl 1 to lvl 13, I have learned that at lower level, some classes may be stronger in combat. But that isn't the job of a spellcaster. It's job is to make sure there isn't any TPK and that everybody can defeat the enemy with ease. Also, especially at lvl 7+, you gain access to spells that are so strong a fighter will say: "Yez, I wish I could trade that in for stupid Second Wind...". Just keep your character, and don't think about just damaging, maybe use Phantasmal Force to protect the party? Or to scare off the enemy? Be creative and everything will be fine. Your choices are not bad.

[Demonic Spoon]

Small mistake, OP: Your free cantrip should be Thaumaturgy, not Prestidigitation.

Anyway, it sounds like you want to do damage, but you don't actually have any damage spells aside from Burning Hands and cantrips. That said, even BH can be pretty effective - it's 6d6 damage if you hit two targets, averaging (3.5*6) = 21 damage. By contrast, prior to level 5, it's unlikely that any of your party mates will do that much damage in one round...and that's only using a level 1 slot. And you can always use sorcery points as needed to do cool stuff like quickened burning hands + poison spray for a huge burst of damage.

Of course, burning hands by itself is pretty limited, so if what you're going for is damage, you'll want to pick up some other damage-y spells.

However, it's perfectly OK (and perhaps even superior), since your party is full of martial characters who are great at inflicting damage, that you focus on more utility spells. It's perfectly viable to fill up your spells with buffs and disables (Hold Person, for example, is fantastic), and do things that the rest of your party can't do. If you go this route, you'll be perfectly effective, but you definitely won't be outdamaging the rest of your party.

Remember that your cantrips are just backups - even the most damaging cantrip (poison spray) won't stack up to a fighter in terms of damage output. Cantrips are there so that you have something useful to do if it isn't worth it to spend a spellslot. They will not, by themselves, make you competitive.

In general, keep in mind that martial classes like fighters and rangers are really, really good at dishing out a lot of consistent damage. Even if you focus on damage spells as I mentioned above, what you'd be bringing to the table is burst (e.g. quicken spell + cantrip), AOE (especially with Careful Spell), and flexibility (e.g. long range, utility spells). In terms of consistent round-by-round damage, your sorcerer isn't likely to outdo the fighters - and that's expected.

[Vogonjeltz]

I can already tell one error I made, which was loading up too much on level 2 spells and not leaving myself enough versatility with my level 1 slots. Any suggestions on which spell I could drop from level 2, and what I should pick up at level 1?

I'd drop two of your 2nd level spells actually, Suggestion and Invisibility. Neither one interacts particularly well with the idea behind Wild Magic (do you really want to cast Suggestion and then end up casting magic missile, or Invisibility and then start glowing?).

Pick two from 1st level, I suggest: Witch Bolt (single target damage, you already have Burning Hands for AoE), and Sleep or perhaps Mage Armor.


one extra attack is nice and all, or since it is twinned, two extra attacks... but that's basically an extra 10ish damage per round at high levels, less at level 5 unless their attack attribute is maxed and they have appropriate feats. in specific situations (you've got a high-ish AC character in the front, no enemies can get past them, and an extra 2 points of AC will make that character nearly impossible to hit, or you're fighting an enemy that is literally immune to magic) haste can be a decent choice.

You have to target two different characters, the spells wouldn't stack with themselves even if that weren't the case.


And you can twin it. 2d4 damage/round may not seen like much but it works on any weapon damage so go ahead and give it to an archer.

Wouldn't that arrow lose the damage bonus once it returns to normal size? (Or are we handwaving that as the bow is what makes the damage what it is, not the arrow?)

[Velaryon]

The DM is going to let me replace one metamagic and one spell, so I'm going to pick up Twin Spell. I'm going to drop Hold Person, because even though it's a good spell its targets are much more limited than my other options so it will often be unusable. Chromatic Orb looks like a good fit for my needs right now - I didn't understand that spell components now are basically all what were called spell foci in 3.5, which is why I didn't take it in the first place.

When I start gaining higher level spells, I'll come back to options like fireball and so on, but for now I can't take them yet. Thanks everyone!

[JAL_1138]

I wouldn't drop Hold Person. My bard has it and it's been absolutely, massively useful. You do realize it sets up the Fighter and the Ranger to attack with advantage and do crit damage on every hit?

[Zevox]

Chromatic Orb looks like a good fit for my needs right now - I didn't understand that spell components now are basically all what were called spell foci in 3.5, which is why I didn't take it in the first place.
Not all: some are still used up each time you cast the spell. The description will mention that they're "consumed" when the spell is cast if that's the case, though, and Chromatic Orb isn't one of those, so you're good on that once you have the component.