Spheres of Power

[Ruethgar]

Just got the PDF. Was wondering how playgrounders feel about it, weather it is balanced or not. Back porting to 3.5 it is a little powerful I think, although less broken than what one can pull with the current system, but as I understand it PF has a higher floor. It is certainly effective at going for theme builds and making magic wielders feel special up front similar to how Blizzard put the signature moves of all the Warcraft specializations at the front.

[Extra Anchovies]

There's been a lot of Spheres of Power threads. Here's the latest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?415365-The-Creator-of-Spheres-of-Power-Here-Ask-Me-Anything/), with 100% extra system developer. People on this forum apparently love the system, and I've heard it's a very balanced subsystem.

[Vhaidara]

It's a much better magic system. It allows novaing without the issue of running dry, it doesn't force low level casters to play the role of "dude with crossbow" while still blocking out the incredible levels of BS that they throw out at high levels.

For balance purposes, it makes the casters scale more linearly, with most things keying off of Caster Level to get stronger.

[Ssalarn]

It's a much better magic system. It allows novaing without the issue of running dry, it doesn't force low level casters to play the role of "dude with crossbow" while still blocking out the incredible levels of BS that they throw out at high levels.

For balance purposes, it makes the casters scale more linearly, with most things keying off of Caster Level to get stronger.

Pretty much this. It's a superbly balanced system that's remarkably fun to play and enables an extremely wide array of character concepts.

[Ruethgar]

It is pretty cool that I can make Storm from level one. 4d8 once per round and you don't even have to concentrate on it.

Human Sphere Sorcerer 1
Weather Focus Sphere: Severe Weather, Wind Lord
First: Storm Lord
Flaw: Storm Lord
Human: Rain Lord

Template classes and LA buyoff are your friend just like with initiators since you keep the classes but lose the ECL adjustment. So a Sphere Sorcerer Major Bloodline Draconic Half Dragon buying off the levels as you get them is down 9k xp which is a big hit normally for the mediocre abilities of a template and bloodline but with Advanced Magical Training you're sitting at ECL 1 Caster Level 9. That leaves 16 levels to do whatever you please and only 3 after that have to be high casters to keep a 1:1 CL. Wonderful for making a dragon actually feel magical. Take a few flaws and loredrake, start as a hatchling sorcerer instead of wyrmling and you can have a decent array of abilities that scale with level before you start taking dragon levels.

[Extra Anchovies]

SoP is A) for Pathfinder and B) supposed to be balanced, so tacking on a bunch of broken 3.5 stuff kinda defeats the point :smallconfused:

[Ruethgar]

3.P and 3.x are played and PF is generally backwards compatible. The fly skill check requirement for one of the nature powers is the only thing I've seen that wouldn't mesh well. Even with just PF, a 50% CL progression is pretty potent for just a feat. And even with the broken 3.5 content, there is very little that you could chose in the way of powers that would be unstoppably powerful like many a T1 in the current system.

Where would this put the current casters on the tier system? Assume as a magic replacement not just an additional system.

[Vhaidara]

Well, as a replacement, it fundamentally alters the Tier system. T1 and T2 don't really exist anymore (Sphere Wizard and Incanter have some potential for T2 at high OP, but it requires pretty solid building to have the flexibility).

In my experience, most of them fall around solid T3/upper T4 ranges. Fey Adept runs into the issue of DM subjectivity (because different GMs handle illusions differently), and Shifter feels a bit lackluster outside of Gestalt, especially at low levels.

As a note, inside of Gestalt, some classes take on whole new roles. I've had a player who was using Shifter to emulate being a werewolf, and another who used an Alteration/Conjuration focused Incanter to create Magic: The Gathering's Sarkan Vol (Dragon summoner who turns into a dragon), paired with Elementalist to shoot fire and lightning everywhere.

[AGrinningCat]

Spheres is pretty good; I just wish there was some more options when it came to certain spheres. But yeah, back porting is going to cause some issues. Pathfinder characters sit at a higher power level than their 3.5 counter parts to begin with, and the system was devised for Pathfinder.

[stack]

I am a big proponent of the system, though as always there are tweaks I would like and more material is always welcome.

[atemu1234]

SoP is A) for Pathfinder and B) supposed to be balanced, so tacking on a bunch of broken 3.5 stuff kinda defeats the point :smallconfused:

Pathfinder is just as bad, step off the soapbox.

[Vhaidara]

I'm not going to say PF is balanced, but it is better. No incantatrix, for example.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Isn't sacred Geometry PF's answer to Incantatrix metamagic effect?

[Extra Anchovies]

Pathfinder is just as bad, step off the soapbox.

What I meant was that A) importing 3.5 stuff to PF is odd (most PF games I've actually played didn't allow 3.5 content, so it can't be assumed that all of them would) and B) using a bunch of broken stuff like Loredrake with a supposedly-balanced subsystem like SoP was odd. Wasn't meaning to imply that Pathfinder is better balanced (although as an aside I agree with Keledrath).

And yeah, Sacred Geometry is broken as hell (my favorite thread here is the one where some people worked out the math and found that there was a 100% success rate from 14 ranks on). But unlike Incantatrix I never see anyone who actually plans to use it.

[Vhaidara]

Isn't sacred Geometry PF's answer to Incantatrix metamagic effect?

I'll see your Sacred Geometry and raise you Persistent Spell, Irresistible Spell, Divine Metamagic, Ice Assassin, Mindrape, StP Erudite, stat replacement Polymorph line, Wish with no price cap on magic items, Elven Generalist Domain Wizard, Rainbow Warsnake, and Sublime Chord/Ur Priest/Theurge.

[Ruethgar]

What I meant was that A) importing 3.5 stuff to PF is odd (most PF games I've actually played didn't allow 3.5 content, so it can't be assumed that all of them would) and B) using a bunch of broken stuff like Loredrake with a supposedly-balanced subsystem like SoP was odd. Wasn't meaning to imply that Pathfinder is better balanced (although as an aside I agree with Keledrath).

And yeah, Sacred Geometry is broken as hell (my favorite thread here is the one where some people worked out the math and found that there was a 100% success rate from 14 ranks on). But unlike Incantatrix I never see anyone who actually plans to use it.

It is more importing PF into 3.5 which many of my games do quite often for some of the more balanced content(such as fighters if anyone ever actually wanted to play one). Whenever I encounter a new subsystem I immediately try and find how to break it so I can then scale the power for what I want in a character based on what the general optimization level of the party will be. So if for example I'm going into a game with a Divine Metamagic Persist Cleric, StP Erudite, and Planar Shepard and I want to play a Sphere character I might go with a Spellhoarding Riddled Loredrake Dragonwrought Kobold Sphere Sorcerer with Uncanny Trickster and a Welknarian Bloodline to advance its class level dependent class feature advancement. But for a Fighter, Healer, Monk group I might just pick a Wild Defender Ranger or adapt one of the three NPC casters.

Speaking of, where would you guys put the NPC classes, Mid or Low casters? They get a higher spell level than a normal ranger but I would probably still put the Adept and Magewright at low casters. The Psychic Adept gets 6th level powers, but I think maybe just make it mid for mind and low for the rest. What about a Mystic Ranger? They end up with one less spell per day and one less spell level than a bard, so I think it is close enough to mid.