Dread Necromancer charnel touch

[Atarax]

I'm building a dread necromancer as an npc foe. More specifically, I'm throwing many of them against the party throughout this adventure. Following the example of the Monster Manual, I'm giving them average ability scores. 13 Cha, 12 Dex, all 10's and an 8 on Wis. If they meet an important one, I'll give that one elite ability scores. With that in mind, according to Heroes of Horror, they pick one martial weapon to be proficient at. But they also get charnel touch- a supernatural ability to channel negative energy and deliver it with a melee touch attack for 1d8 + 1 for every four levels damage.
I can't figure out why they'd fight with a melee weapon if they can deal as much (or more for those npc's with average stats) damage with their charnel touch. Anyone have any experience playing these guys? How do they fight?

[atemu1234]

You're a Dread Necromancer. You don't fight. Your legions of undead do.

[Amphetryon]

I'm building a dread necromancer as an npc foe. More specifically, I'm throwing many of them against the party throughout this adventure. Following the example of the Monster Manual, I'm giving them average ability scores. 13 Cha, 12 Dex, all 10's and an 8 on Wis. If they meet an important one, I'll give that one elite ability scores. With that in mind, according to Heroes of Horror, they pick one martial weapon to be proficient at. But they also get charnel touch- a supernatural ability to channel negative energy and deliver it with a melee touch attack for 1d8 + 1 for every four levels damage.
I can't figure out why they'd fight with a melee weapon if they can deal as much (or more for those npc's with average stats) damage with their charnel touch. Anyone have any experience playing these guys? How do they fight?

Martial Weapon doesn't restrict you to Melee. Choose a Longbow, or if your DEX stinks worse than your minions, a Reach weapon with which you can trip. Charnel Touch works great to heal yourself (Tomb-Tainted Soul) and your minions, and as an emergency damage boost, but even with DR, you're probably too squishy to stand and trade for long.

[Atarax]

I realize that undead minions will be the character's best option. But what I'm getting at is more martial weapon vs. charnel touch...what's the point of both? Why ever use one as an attack if the other is more effective.

From Heroes of Horror:

"A dread necromancer’s participation in combat is a balancing act. She wants to be able to deliver touch attacks, but light armor and her relatively weak (d6) Hit Dice offer
only modest protection against enemy attacks. "

Why does she have a battleaxe if she "wants to be be able to deliver touch attacks"?

[atemu1234]

I realize that undead minions will be the character's best option. But what I'm getting at is more martial weapon vs. charnel touch...what's the point of both? Why ever use one as an attack if the other is more effective.

From Heroes of Horror:

"A dread necromancer’s participation in combat is a balancing act. She wants to be able to deliver touch attacks, but light armor and her relatively weak (d6) Hit Dice offer
only modest protection against enemy attacks. "

Why does she have a battleaxe if she "wants to be be able to deliver touch attacks"?

Because the game designers weren't particularly good at optimization?

[Atarax]

Because the game designers weren't particularly good at optimization?

Unfortunately, the artist was pretty good at drawing the example as a dreadful looking necromancer type. And that battleaxe really makes it pop. I want that. :(

Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

[JoranShadeslayr]

Opponents under the effects of Death Ward are immune to a DN's charnel touch for the duration of the spell so having a melee weapon for back up is good.

[golentan]

Being unarmed also means you provoke AoO if you try to hit someone, which I believe does apply to touch attacks like charnel touch (you poke your hand at them, wreathed in dark energy, and the enemy as a trained combatant with reach advantage from holding a sword responds by trying to shorten your arm at the wrist to avoid whatever you are trying to do to them).

[Nihilarian]

If you can get your DM to accept PF material, they have a weapon property (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/conductive) you might like.

[Eldaran]

Being unarmed also means you provoke AoO if you try to hit someone, which I believe does apply to touch attacks like charnel touch (you poke your hand at them, wreathed in dark energy, and the enemy as a trained combatant with reach advantage from holding a sword responds by trying to shorten your arm at the wrist to avoid whatever you are trying to do to them).

This is incorrect.


"Armed" Unarmed Attacks
Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed.

[Marlowe]

Unfortunately, the artist was pretty good at drawing the example as a dreadful looking necromancer type. And that battleaxe really makes it pop. I want that. :(

Thanks for confirming my suspicions.

Just assume she isn't actually proficient with the Battleaxe, and that she's just carrying it around to Coup de Gras people. Because a Scythe would just be too last year.

[Atarax]

If you can get your DM to accept PF material, they have a weapon property (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/conductive) you might like.

I am the DM. I'm using a this class for villains. I had thought of letting them deliver the touch attack through the weapon, but I figured that doing weapon damage AND magic damage whenever they hit would be too much. But then again, I could say that if the attack roll is high enough to touch, the charnel touch does damage. The weapon itself only does damage if the attack roll beats the actual AC.

[golentan]

I am the DM. I'm using a this class for villains. I had thought of letting them deliver the touch attack through the weapon, but I figured that doing weapon damage AND magic damage whenever they hit would be too much. But then again, I could say that if the attack roll is high enough to touch, the charnel touch does damage. The weapon itself only does damage if the attack roll beats the actual AC.

Tops, it's another 1d8+5, and from how you've described this cult doesn't seem the 20th level sort, and it's not like they have large hit dice, and they don't qualify for power attack, and they've got no strength bonus, so at a guess even with channeling weapons they're strictly below what, 4th level fighters for melee damage and will always stay that way.

Sorry about the touch attack misinformation.

[Segev]

In one game I played, another guy was playing a Dread Necromancer who pretended to be a fighter-type. He got a lot of use out of his martial weapon proficiency.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Being unarmed also means you provoke AoO if you try to hit someone, which I believe does apply to touch attacks like charnel touch (you poke your hand at them, wreathed in dark energy, and the enemy as a trained combatant with reach advantage from holding a sword responds by trying to shorten your arm at the wrist to avoid whatever you are trying to do to them).

This is incorrect.
Not only is it incorrect, it's opposite common sense. If you clumsily take a swing at a guy (untrained unarmed strike), then it's an obviously useless attack that he can effectively ignore and stab you at will. But with an obviously-dangerous touch attack, he has to treat it like any other weapon and respond accordingly, with the same sort of dodge he'd use if you had, say, a punch dagger.

[lytokk]

Because a necromancer wielding a scythe is an image to neat to pass up? Also some things are immune to negative energy and its good to have something to contribute. I know you've always got your spells, but still.

[golentan]

Not only is it incorrect, it's opposite common sense. If you clumsily take a swing at a guy (untrained unarmed strike), then it's an obviously useless attack that he can effectively ignore and stab you at will. But with an obviously-dangerous touch attack, he has to treat it like any other weapon and respond accordingly, with the same sort of dodge he'd use if you had, say, a punch dagger.

But if he's not dodging, if he's parrying, if he is taking his blade and using it to intercept and deflect the dangerous item, his blade is hitting flesh. And comparing it to a dagger, well, daggers without the element of surprise and without having already made it past the guard and effective range of a sword... If I swung at someone holding a longsword with a dagger, having not feinted or ducked my way past first, I'm expecting to lose the arm more likely than not, because, as mentioned, reach advantage.

I realize DnD isn't always faithful, and it's not fun to say "the fight almost always goes to the guy with the longsword over the knife." But punching dagger isn't a good comparison to make, because the response of the person armed with another weapon remains almost identical to the touch attack weapon. Take One step back and swing for the elbow: If they aren't close enough in that you can't do that to disengage, they either jump back and you maintain reach advantage, or they have misjudged, overextended themselves, and are about to lose the arm when the mace/blade/whatever impacts.

Having done Rapier in mixed weapon sparring... Knives can win, but it's a huge disadvantage to overcome "I have an extra several feet of range and can use my blade in wider defensive motions" in melee.

[Honest Tiefling]

Because a necromancer wielding a scythe is an image to neat to pass up?

I really think this is the only reason they have that martial weapon thing entirely. I don't even know if they're supposed to use it, or just pose dramatically with it to be honest.

[Mr Adventurer]

Pretty sure that the Elite Array for ability scores is part of the CR for having a PC class.

[Warrnan]

I've seen several casters, most recently a beguiler, carry huge weapons for coup-de-grace to finish off foes they've disabled or such things. Especially if you come up with a way to harvest souls it's perfect. This beguiler had an acid burst scythe and his criticals were impossible to survive for almost anyone on the fort save or die cdg. He wasn't even proficient and it was a size category too large. Hahaha

[Grod_The_Giant]

But if he's not dodging, if he's parrying, if he is taking his blade and using it to intercept and deflect the dangerous item, his blade is hitting flesh. And comparing it to a dagger, well, daggers without the element of surprise and without having already made it past the guard and effective range of a sword... If I swung at someone holding a longsword with a dagger, having not feinted or ducked my way past first, I'm expecting to lose the arm more likely than not, because, as mentioned, reach advantage.

I realize DnD isn't always faithful, and it's not fun to say "the fight almost always goes to the guy with the longsword over the knife." But punching dagger isn't a good comparison to make, because the response of the person armed with another weapon remains almost identical to the touch attack weapon. Take One step back and swing for the elbow: If they aren't close enough in that you can't do that to disengage, they either jump back and you maintain reach advantage, or they have misjudged, overextended themselves, and are about to lose the arm when the mace/blade/whatever impacts.

Having done Rapier in mixed weapon sparring... Knives can win, but it's a huge disadvantage to overcome "I have an extra several feet of range and can use my blade in wider defensive motions" in melee.
Okay, but D&D doesn't care about non-polearm reach, so a touch spell is just as threatening as a weapon attack-- either way, you're forced to respond urgently. AoOs on touch attacks might be a nifty feat, though, or a minor caster nerf.

[Chester]

what's the point of both? Why ever use one as an attack if the other is more effective?

Because the chosen weapon will be a longbow. For range.