A Prophecy Fulfilled!

[storybookknight]

Belkar is going to be hugely disappointed when he realizes that he caused Roy's death without actually getting to stab him, don't you think?

[jindra34]

Hell Yeah...

[Om]

Fulfilled in a very roundabout manner... :smallconfused:

[Redblade]

Maybe it was in fact caused because Belkar saved Elan after Nale stabbed him, and if Elan hadn't of been there then Roy would have had a healing potion?

Ok... maybe not...

[K2]

I bet that Belkar is going to pass out a lot more jewelry after this.

[unstattedCommoner]

Maybe it was in fact caused because Belkar saved Elan after Nale stabbed him, and if Elan hadn't of been there then Roy would have had a healing potion?

Ok... maybe not...

If Belkar hadn't broken Miko, she might not have felt compelled to decapitate Shojo, and would therefore have been standing just to the left of where Roy landed, and able to either cushion his landing or Lay on Hands?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Fulfilled in a very roundabout manner... :smallconfused:

A roundabout manner perhaps but not a very roundabout one.

Roy is killed by Xyklon

Roy dies because he was on his own

Roy is on his own because Belkar let him jump that high

That's only three steps.

[Om]

A roundabout manner perhaps but not a ver roundabout one.

Roy is killed by Xyklon

Roy dies because he was on his own

Roy is on his own because Belkar let him jump that high

That's only three steps.Ultimately though Roy was acting of his own initiative. Belkar involved in Roy's death but he can hardly be described as the cause – that was either Xyklon or Roy's own instincts.

[Assassinfox]

No, I'm pretty sure Xykon caused Roy's death there. :smalltongue:

That was waaaaay too indirect. I doubt the Oracle's THAT mean. Besides, if Belkar can be blamed for "causing his death", so could Elan for using up his potion, Celia for giving him a shoddyy talisman, Miko for dragging them all into this quest, and Roy's mother for having him.

[jindra34]

No, I'm pretty sure Xykon caused Roy's death there. :smalltongue:

That was waaaaay too indirect. I doubt the Oracle's THAT mean. Besides, if Belkar can be blamed for "causing his death", so could Elan for using up his potion, Celia for giving him a shoddyy talisman, Miko for dragging them all into this quest, and Roy's mother for having him.

Do not forget Eugene for kicking the whole thing off...

[Silverlocke980]

I don't think that Belkar's prophecy gets fulfilled in this manner- but who knows? Maybe Roy will be forced to come back as a Zombie... which Belkar will then kill.

Who knows?

[Threeshades]

No, I'm pretty sure Xykon caused Roy's death there. :smalltongue:

That was waaaaay too indirect. I doubt the Oracle's THAT mean. Besides, if Belkar can be blamed for "causing his death", so could Elan for using up his potion, Celia for giving him a shoddyy talisman, Miko for dragging them all into this quest, and Roy's mother for having him.
Don't forget Redcloak for animating the zombie dragon, Haley for looking through Xykons plan with the 3 decoys, Sangwaan for detecting the zombie dragon, Durkon for making it visible, and everyone else for not holding him back from jumping upon the zombie dragon.

And vaarsuvius for not being close enough to cast feather fall.

[Jiktori]

"Do I get to cause the death of any of the follow..."

Is the way he worded what he asked the oracle.

Doesn't matter how many people 'caused' it, or how obscure the 'cause' was me thinks. He did something which 'caused' it, even if obscurely so, so that's cause enough I'd say, and even more likely that it's cause enough for the oracle.

[Om]

Doesn't matter how many people 'caused' it, or how obscure the 'cause' was me thinks.Let me introduce you to this butterfly. Notice how he flaps his wings?

[Elliot Kane]

It's a pretty clear fulfillment, to me. Belkar gave him the ring, which was the only reason he was in that situation in the first place. Without Belkar's ring, Roy would not have been able to reach Xykon, so would never have died.

[Assassinfox]

It's a pretty clear fulfillment, to me. Belkar gave him the ring, which was the only reason he was in that situation in the first place. Without Belkar's ring, Roy would not have been able to reach Xykon, so would never have died.

Miko brought them to Azure City in the first place. If she hadn't done it, Roy wouldn't have gotten killed there or even known Xykon was still around.

Roy's mom gave birth to him. If she hadn't done that, he wouldn't have died there.

Obviously, it's his mom's fault.

[Avatar God]

"Do I get to cause the death of any of the follow..."

Is the way he worded what he asked the oracle.

Doesn't matter how many people 'caused' it, or how obscure the 'cause' was me thinks. He did something which 'caused' it, even if obscurely so, so that's cause enough I'd say, and even more likely that it's cause enough for the oracle.See, I think that the word 'cause' in the prophecy would mean exactly the opposite.

Also, I'm totally still laughing at Om's post... :smalltongue:

[Ralfarius]

A tidbit to consider: Belkar had a bet with Mr. Grand Larceny that Roy would, in fact, take the ring and jump. Clearly he assumed that Roy would be stupid enough to perform an essentially suicidal act. In fact, he was so sure he could convince Roy to leap from the ramparts, that he put money on it.

Considering the stupidity Belkar/Grand Larceny knew was involved with taking the leap, I would say that Belkar was likely quite aware he was trying to cause Roy to die. The fact that he actually made it to the dragon and was killed a few rounds later is inconsequential. Belkar caused Roy's death.

Also, we're talking about a prophet whom gives answers that seem to cause the questioners a great deal of frustration. The fact that Belkar caused Roy's death in a more inadvertent, less satisfying manner seems in line with the Oracle's style.

[Jukashi]

I think Belkar's going to be even more upset when he realises that either a) Roy, having moved on to the afterlife, is now more than 1 mile away and his curse is therefore activated, or b) he will need to find and cart around Roy's corpse in order to avoid setting off the curse.

[jindra34]

A tidbit to consider: Belkar had a bet with Mr. Grand Larceny that Roy would, in fact, take the ring and jump. Clearly he assumed that Roy would be stupid enough to perform an essentially suicidal act. In fact, he was so sure he could convince Roy to leap from the ramparts, that he put money on it.

Considering the stupidity Belkar/Grand Larceny knew was involved with taking the leap, I would say that Belkar was likely quite aware he was trying to cause Roy to die. The fact that he actually made it to the dragon and was killed a few rounds later is inconsequential. Belkar caused Roy's death.

Also, we're talking about a prophet whom gives answers that seem to cause the questioners a great deal of frustration. The fact that Belkar caused Roy's death in a more inadvertent, less satisfying manner seems in line with the Oracle's style.

Hell the Oracle at Delphi gave more straight answers than this guy...

[happyturtle]

I can see a strip where Belkar is arguing this very point, trying to get someone to agree with him that he *didn't* cause Roy's death, and therefore he can look forward to another guaranteed killing.

Only the Oracle knows if this is what he was referring to. Belkar won't know for sure and neither will we.

[Assassinfox]

Saying that Belkar "caused" Roy's death is still a huge stretch.

[MReav]

Well, who says that he exclusively causes the death of one of them?

[Hel65]

Would Roy die here like that if Belkar didn't give him his ring?

QED.

[SaiKar]

It's a weak fulfullment. If the prophecy was that Durkon was to cause Roy's death, we could just as easily say Durkon did it by dispelling invisiblity on the undead dragon. Or that Haley did by suggesting that there might be another Xykon. Or that Elan did by self-destructing the first gate, getting them into this mess entirely.

PLUS! More importantly, this wasn't funny, and if you're going to settle long-running plot elements in a humor comic, it better be humorous.

[Jayabalard]

Belkar is going to be hugely disappointed when he realizes that he caused Roy's death without actually getting to stab him, don't you think?Not really... I mean, it was his intention to get him killed by giving him the ring, so he will probably be cool with that.

[Elliot Kane]

Belkar giving Roy his ring was a deliberate act that he clearly hoped would cause Roy to leap to his death. It did, just indirectly. The prophecy says 'cause the death of' not 'personally kill', and I'd say this absolutely qualifies.

[Om]

Not really... I mean, it was his intention to get him killed by giving him the ring, so he will probably be cool with that.It was his intention to win some gold by giving him the ring.



Would Roy die here like that if Belkar didn't give him his ring?
Would Roy have died if Xyklon hadn't roasted him?

For Belkar to have been the cause of Roy's death it must have been the primary cause (the cause if you will) of death.

[The Familiar]

Let me introduce you to this butterfly. Notice how he flaps his wings?

He needs to flap a little harder, 'cause I'm not feeling it.
Unless "his" name is Mothra (http://godzilla.monstrous.com/mothra.htm)...:smalltongue:

[Nathander]

I have to agree that this is a very unlikely way for Belkar's prophecy to be fulfilled. While it is a possibility (considering Roy's death may activate the Mark of Justice, as we don't know how far out Xykon took him) that Belkar will die here after having "caused" Roy's death, I'm betting against it. Though, of course, I'm betting that the death he'll cause will basically be the one know one has really been thinking of, seeing as how unlikely it is. So I'm kinda predisposed against the idea of this being the fulfilment to begin with. :smalltongue:

[The Pink Ninja]

I bet five gold bits that Elan swings down on a rope to save Roy :D

[Assassinfox]

I bet five gold bits that Elan swings down on a rope to save Roy :D

If he does, he's a bit late there.

[Pyrian]

Okay, how about this: Roy's outside the city, gets raised by hobgoblin clerics and thrown against the walls as part of the next wave - whereupon Belkar, still outside the walls, slays his undead form. Would that count?

[Assassinfox]

Okay, how about this: Roy's outside the city, gets raised by hobgoblin clerics and thrown against the walls as part of the next wave - whereupon Belkar, still outside the walls, slays his undead form. Would that count?

Yes. Yes, it would. Unless you feel like arguing that Roy's already "dead".

[Kreistor]

Belkar is responsible for this? Because he gave Roy a ring to facilitate it? That's very, very weak.

[Jayabalard]

Okay, how about this: Roy's outside the city, gets raised by hobgoblin clerics and thrown against the walls as part of the next wave - whereupon Belkar, still outside the walls, slays his undead form. Would that count?/shrug

Since the prophecy in question came from an oracle that answered "in the throne room" I don't see why people have a problem with the prophecy already being fulfilled.

[jindra34]

Yes. Yes, it would. Unless you feel like arguing that Roy's already "dead".

i would say you destroy undead not kill them but...

[Assassinfox]

/shrug

Since the prophecy in question came from an oracle that answered "in the throne room" I don't see why people have a problem with the prophecy already being fulfilled.

Because it's a gigantic stretch! As pointed out before, the Oracle could've said Durkon, Haley, V, Miko, Hinjo, Sangwaan, Eugene, Fyron, or Mrs. Greenhilt and it could still be argued as "indirectly causing Roy's death".

[Spleen]

Because it's a gigantic stretch! As pointed out before, the Oracle could've said Durkon, Haley, V, Miko, Hinjo, Sangwaan, Eugene, Fyron, or Mrs. Greenhilt and it could still be argued as "indirectly causing Roy's death".

Who's to say he wouldn't have, either, if any of them had asked that question. But Belkar and only Belkar asked if he, and only he, would "cause" Roy's death.

[OmadaZero]

Because it's a gigantic stretch! As pointed out before, the Oracle could've said Durkon, Haley, V, Miko, Hinjo, Sangwaan, Eugene, Fyron, or Mrs. Greenhilt and it could still be argued as "indirectly causing Roy's death".

Just because they too might have indirectly "caused" his death as well has nothing to due with Belkar's involvement. I'm with you that this is too much of a stretch, but my inner devil's advocate comes out from time to time. I think that Belkar is still going to cause the death of one of an ever shortening list of people... :smallwink:


However the "In the throne room" incident is a justifiable position considering that the Oracle is known for being rather... frustrating. :smallmad:

[Ralfarius]

I'm seeing a lot of "But Roy dying here is such a lame way for the prophecy to come true!" up in this thread...

Is it lame the same way that Roy got his answer as to where Xykon would strike next, omitting Azure City from one of the possibilities in his wording?

I mean, yes, Belkar wasn't the sole cause of Roy's death. However his exact words were "Do I get to cause the death of any of the following: Miko, Miko's stupid horse, Roy, Vaarsuvius, or you?"

He didn't ask if he got to kill. His question was not specific, therefore it stands to reason that he having any hand in the shuffling-off of one of the aforementioned character's mortal coil would be a fulfillment of said prophecy.

The very fact that this would be a lame technicality of a fulfillment set off the alarm bells in my head. I mean, vague answers which end up being a disappointment to the characters whom sought them seems exactly like the modus operandi of an oracle.

Of course, the first potential fulfillment of "When the goat turns red strikes true" turned out to be a red herring. I'm open to the possibility that there is some greater prophecy at work for Belkar's coin.

This just seems so bloody likely, because it would be such a gyp for Belkar.

[Assassinfox]

"Oracle, will a flumph cause the death of Roy?"
"Yes."

Later...

"OMG! It all makes sense! It's the flumph's fault that Roy died, because it cushioned Elan's fall from the dungeon of dorukon, allowing him to live long enough to make Roy waste a potion! Those dastardly flumphs!"

[OmadaZero]

This just seems so bloody likely, because it would be such a gyp for Belkar.

(Apologies for condensing your post so much, but still)

I think that you have a wonderful argument. A lot of hilarity can ensue from it, but I'm also a fan of a lot of drama. As much as what you're saying makes sense, it just wouldn't be as fulfilling as Belkar showing how truly evil he is. However... your opinion is sounding more and more likely...

:belkar: = pwnd :smallbiggrin:

[Ralfarius]

(Apologies for condensing your post so much, but still)

I think that you have a wonderful argument. A lot of hilarity can ensue from it, but I'm also a fan of a lot of drama. As much as what you're saying makes sense, it just wouldn't be as fulfilling as Belkar showing how truly evil he is. However... your opinion is sounding more and more likely...

:belkar: = pwnd :smallbiggrin:
Hey, if I'm wrong, that just means something far more awesome happens to fulfill the prophecy, right? I sure wouldn't be disappointed with that!

[OmadaZero]

Hey, if I'm wrong, that just means something far more awesome happens to fulfill the prophecy, right? I sure wouldn't be disappointed with that!

Haha! Too true, too true! I guess we really can't lose, can we? Way to go, Giant! :smallwink:

[Assassinfox]

And the prophecy didn't specify that Belkar would only kill one of the listed characters.

[Stevenson]

Please. Belkar didn't cause Roy's death.

He caused Miko's. Just not yet.

Also, even if he did cause Roy's death, he didn't cause, "the death of Roy." He caused "a death of Roy's".

You don't think they're gonna have enough money for a raise dead, or even true ressurection?

Also, as long as we're talking about the Oracle's prophecies being vague...he tried, for a good three panels, to make sure he gave Roy a good answer.

[Spleen]

You don't think they're gonna have enough money for a raise dead, or even true ressurection?


Actually, that could bring up a good conflict. Will Haley have to decide to turn a sizable chunk of her Dad-saving money into Roy-saving money?

[Brickman]

Considering how far everyone was willing to stretch logic in their theories of how Belkar would "cause" Miko's death (including saying that he caused her to fall and that'd kill her, the arrow thing, and lord knows what else before I got here) and even the claims that by preventing her horse from being summoned he killed it, I think it's outright silly that anyone thinks he did NOT just fulfill his prophecy. He gave Roy the ring of jumping, Roy jumped onto Xykon's dragon, Roy was blasted off the dragon and died. It seems cut-and paste to me, and that's even WITHOUT the fact that Belkar "intended" (and by the way, I do think that was a joke--he didn't REALLY want kill Roy, if you ask me, no matter how mean he seems. He will show some emotion besides anger that it wasn't him when he finds out, mark my words) for Roy to die in this venture.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Belkar caused the death of Roy because he deliberately put Roy in a dangerous position. He did not kill Roy, but he did not ask the Oracle if he would kill Roy. Belkar knew that Roy would go into a battle against a powerful Lich if he had the ring of jumping. Belkar also knew that without it none of them had a chance of stopping Xykon.

Yes Roy would be alive if Miko hadn't taken him to Azure city. Yes he would be alive if that dragon had not been animated. But those actions were carried out without any knowledge of the possibility that Roy might die falling from a dragon. Belkar however knew that there was such a possibility.

Belkar is guilty of endangering Roy. The prophesy said he would indirectly kill either Miko's horse, Roy or Miko and he did indirectly kill Roy.

[SMDVogrin]

Another point to consider (and my reason for thinking "Belkar is the cause of Roy's death"):

The dragon got blasted because it didn't have a head anymore.
It didn't have a head anymore because Roy chopped it off.
Roy chopped it off because he didn't want it flying too far away from Belkar.
Thus, Belkar was the cause of the series of events that killed Roy.

(Granted, that third point might be debatable, but that's what I thought Roy was doing when he decapitated it.)

[SaiKar]

Belkar caused the death of Roy because he deliberately put Roy in a dangerous position.

No, ROY put Roy into a dangerous position. Belkar gave him the ring, yes, but Roy was already talking about wanting a fly spell. In the jump comic ( http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html ) Roy reasons out why he should jump up there. Roy was determined to fight Xykon one way or the other.

On the list of causes of death,
* Xkyon is #1, having actually killed him and blown up the dragon he was riding.
* Roy is a definate #2, being determined to do the crazy death-defying D&D character thing that is attacking the main badguy alone.
* Belkar is a distant third, having sugggested the jump, but he's not much behind the other people that made the circumstance for the jump possible.

I'm not disputing Belkar's place on the list, and I wouldn't be shocked if that was a fulfillment, but I think it's weak and generally should be more dramatic / plain to see / funny.

[Kreistor]

I didn't say lame, I said "weak". Belkar has no responsibility for the actions of Roy, any more than Roy is responsible for the actions of Belkar. Belkar's possession of the ring only facillitated an action that Roy was already trying to find a way to execute, specifically, get to Xykon. Roy could have, at any time, chosen to jump off the dragon and flee.

For Belkar to have been responsible, it would have to fall under the concept of facilitation. Belker would have had to provide a means to an end that could not have otherwise been achieved. Could Roy have found another way to the dragon? There's the Booty Talisman, at the very least. With so many casters around, one might have a means to provide flight. So, no, Belkar did not give Roy anything that Roy could not have gotten otherwise.

In this case, I don't see anyone except Roy being responsible for his own death, besides Xykon of course.

[MReav]

Well, maybe Belkar swiped the Booty Talisman and replaced it with a hard-to-break object in its stead.

THAT would qualify.

[doliemaster]

Dude, belkar caused his death because-
Windstriker- moved on to the next realm and even if miko is redeemed he ain't comin' back.
Oricle- Minor character that no one even knows what he looks like.
So miko or roy or both.
Miko-locked in a jail cell.
Roy- dead, because even though it's a stretch he is dead because of that ring and miko is still alive, unless otherwise proven I think it is Roy.

[Assassinfox]

In this case, I don't see anyone except Roy being responsible for his own death, besides Xykon of course.

And the ground. :smalltongue:

[Suraht]

Do I get to cause the death of any of the following: Miko, Miko's stupid horse, Roy, Vaarsuvius, or you?

Yes. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)

Belkar did enable Roy to go fight Xykon alone, so technically, he is at least part of the reason Roy's getting to hang out in the lawful good afterlife at the moment. And from what I've seen of the oracle's predictions, that would be more than enough for him to say yes to that question, just because it would screw with Belkar's head.

(Now I really wouldn't want to be the messenger for him...telling him that he fulfilled the death prophecy that way, and then that he's getting no XP for the horde he laid waste to. I think I'd have to have a pre-paid true resurrection voucher ready.)

People saying that the same logic could be applied to Miko, Roy's mother, etc., are missing the mark. You can put blame on Roy's father, but not the rest of them. Without the blood oath in the first place, Roy doesn't hire a group and go delve through Dorukan's dungeon in the first place, and generally doesn't even know that Xykon exists, much less needs to face him, and it would mean that Shojo isn't given a reason to go send Miko to find him and bring him back.

[Assassinfox]

People saying that the same logic could be applied to Miko, Roy's mother, etc., are missing the mark. You can put blame on Roy's father, but not the rest of them. Without the blood oath in the first place, Roy doesn't hire a group and go delve through Dorukan's dungeon in the first place, and generally doesn't even know that Xykon exists, much less needs to face him, and it would mean that Shojo isn't given a reason to go send Miko to find him and bring him back.

If Miko hadn't dragged them all the way to Azure City, Roy would not have known that Xykon was back and could've gotten on with his life. Therefore, Miko caused Roy's death.

If Haley hadn't figured out the trick, Sangwaan wouldn't have known to cast True Seeing. If Sangwaan hadn't have cast True Seeing, Durkon wouldn't have known to cast Dispel Magic. If Durkon hadn't cast Dispel Magic, Roy wouldn't have seen Xykon go by on a dragon. Therefore, Haley, Sangwaan, and Durkon caused Roy's death.

If Mrs. Greenhilt hadn't given birth to Roy, he wouldn't have been alive to get into a fight with Xykon and die. Therefore, Mrs. Greenhilt caused Roy's death.

If Fyron had kicked Xykon's butt while he was still alive, Xykon wouldn't have been around to blow up Roy and send him hurtling to his death. Therefore, Fyron caused Roy's death.

If the flumph hadn't cushioned Elan's fall, Elan would've died. If Elan died, Roy wouldn't need to take those arrows for him. If Roy didn't get hit by those arrows, he wouldn't have wasted his healing potion. Therefore, the flumph and Elan caused Roy's death.

If the Linear Guild hadn't kidnapped Julia, the OotS wouldn't have stayed in the city long enough to see the invasion. Therefore, Nale, Sabine, Leeky, Pompey, and, yes, Thog caused Roy's death.

If the gods hadn't created the earth, it wouldn't have smacked Roy in the head and killed him. Therefore, the gods caused Roy's death.

[jindra34]

If Miko hadn't dragged them all the way to Azure City, Roy would not have known that Xykon was back and could've gotten on with his life. Therefore, Miko caused Roy's death.

If Haley hadn't figured out the trick, Sangwaan wouldn't have known to cast True Seeing. If Sangwaan hadn't have cast True Seeing, Durkon wouldn't have known to cast Dispel Magic. If Durkon hadn't cast Dispel Magic, Roy wouldn't have seen Xykon go by on a dragon. Therefore, Haley, Sangwaan, and Durkon caused Roy's death.

If Mrs. Greenhilt hadn't given birth to Roy, he wouldn't have been alive to get into a fight with Xykon and die. Therefore, Mrs. Greenhilt caused Roy's death.

If Fyron had kicked Xykon's butt while he was still alive, Xykon wouldn't have been around to blow up Roy and send him hurtling to his death. Therefore, Fyron caused Roy's death.

If the flumph hadn't cushioned Elan's fall, Elan would've died. If Elan died, Roy wouldn't need to take those arrows for him. If Roy didn't get hit by those arrows, he wouldn't have wasted his healing potion. Therefore, the flumph and Elan caused Roy's death.

If the Linear Guild hadn't kidnapped Julia, the OotS wouldn't have stayed in the city long enough to see the invasion. Therefore, Nale, Sabine, Leeky, Pompey, and, yes, Thog caused Roy's death.

If the gods hadn't created the earth, it wouldn't have smacked Roy in the head and killed him. Therefore, the gods caused Roy's death.
You forgot redcloak the dragon slayer umm... the lantern archons... the hobs Dorukan and gang... ahh... the silly drunken mage... shojo... Eugene... the two goblin kids... etc.

[Assassinfox]

You forgot redcloak the dragon slayer umm... the lantern archons... the hobs Dorukan and gang... ahh... the silly drunken mage... shojo... Eugene... the two goblin kids... etc.

You're right!

The lantern archons failed to kill Xykon before he could send Roy hurtling to his death. Therefore, the lantern archons caused Roy's death.

The silly drunken mage died, forcing the OotS to have to wait long enough for Xykon to attack the city. Therefore, the silly drunken mage caused Roy's death.

The silver dragon fell apart, sending Roy to his death. Therefore, the silver dragon caused Roy's death.

[jindra34]

You're right!

The lantern archons failed to kill Xykon before he could send Roy hurtling to his death. Therefore, the lantern archons caused Roy's death.

The silly drunken mage died, forcing the OotS to have to wait long enough for Xykon to attack the city. Therefore, the silly drunken mage caused Roy's death.

The silver dragon fell apart, sending Roy to his death. Therefore, the silver dragon caused Roy's death.

Forgot the polearm sales man

[Assassinfox]

Forgot the polearm sales man

Polearm salesman didn't have a replacement weapon for Roy. If Roy had a decent weapon with him, he could've killed Miko in their initial fight, preventing her from taking the order to Azure City and finding out about Xykon. The polearm salesman caused Roy's death!

[Suraht]

If Miko hadn't dragged them all the way to Azure City, Roy would not have known that Xykon was back and could've gotten on with his life. Therefore, Miko caused Roy's death.

If Haley hadn't figured out the trick, Sangwaan wouldn't have known to cast True Seeing. If Sangwaan hadn't have cast True Seeing, Durkon wouldn't have known to cast Dispel Magic. If Durkon hadn't cast Dispel Magic, Roy wouldn't have seen Xykon go by on a dragon. Therefore, Haley, Sangwaan, and Durkon caused Roy's death.

If Mrs. Greenhilt hadn't given birth to Roy, he wouldn't have been alive to get into a fight with Xykon and die. Therefore, Mrs. Greenhilt caused Roy's death.

If Fyron had kicked Xykon's butt while he was still alive, Xykon wouldn't have been around to blow up Roy and send him hurtling to his death. Therefore, Fyron caused Roy's death.

If the flumph hadn't cushioned Elan's fall, Elan would've died. If Elan died, Roy wouldn't need to take those arrows for him. If Roy didn't get hit by those arrows, he wouldn't have wasted his healing potion. Therefore, the flumph and Elan caused Roy's death.

If the Linear Guild hadn't kidnapped Julia, the OotS wouldn't have stayed in the city long enough to see the invasion. Therefore, Nale, Sabine, Leeky, Pompey, and, yes, Thog caused Roy's death.

If the gods hadn't created the earth, it wouldn't have smacked Roy in the head and killed him. Therefore, the gods caused Roy's death.


You forgot to blame the snarl for killing people and making the gates necessary. If there are no gates, then Xykon has nothing to control, and doesn't take over Dorukan's dungeon or move onto Azure City.

If the gods hadn't argued while creating the earth, the snarl wouldn't have shown up in the first place.

edit: man, I missed part of your post there.

You could make all of those arguments.

However, Belkar handing Roy the means to directly square off against Xykon mano-a-mano in a battle where Roy is at severe disadvantage, and Belkar seemingly knowing Roy is at that disadvantage when he does it, and then telling him to hurry up about it...that looks like the exact type of technicality that the oracle would use to say yes to the question.

Do I think that is how Belkar's prophecy will be fulfilled? No. But, I 'm not counting out the possibility, either.

[Brickman]

I think there is an expiration time on being directly responsible for someone's death if you weren't planning it (if you planned it, there's no time limit) or ordered/hired someone to kill them. Less defined as a time and more defined as "the last time someone intentionally did something necessary for it to happen". Miko, Roy's dad, Haley and whoever else may have been integral parts in Roy getting there, but none of them made or even tried to help Roy face Xykon one-on-one on the dragon. If Belkar hadn't given him that ring, Roy's too smart to have tried to jump without it and wouldn't have died.

[jindra34]

I'm trying to find a way to pin it on the shrink and failling... oh well...

[Assassinfox]

I think there is an expiration time on being directly responsible for someone's death if you weren't planning it (if you planned it, there's no time limit) or ordered/hired someone to kill them. Less defined as a time and more defined as "the last time someone intentionally did something necessary for it to happen". Miko, Roy's dad, Haley and whoever else may have been integral parts in Roy getting there, but none of them made or even tried to help Roy face Xykon one-on-one on the dragon. If Belkar hadn't given him that ring, Roy's too smart to have tried to jump without it and wouldn't have died.

Roy's not too smart to try and take on a level 18+ lich singlehandedly. He would've just found another way to go toe-to-toe with Xykon. Furthermore, Belkar wasn't intentionally trying to get Roy killed. He was trying to help Roy and, at the same time, get money off of Grand Larceny Guy.


I'm trying to find a way to pin it on the shrink and failling... oh well...

If the flumph hadn't been in that other city visiting the shrink, he would've been there to cushion Roy's fall. The shrink caused Roy's death!

[Stevenson]

Belkar's prophecy was fulfilled-but it was way back. The very moment Miko lost her paladin-hood.

Windstriker was lost, no?

[Assassinfox]

Belkar's prophecy was fulfilled-but it was way back. The very moment Miko lost her paladin-hood.

Windstriker was lost, no?

He didn't die. He just can't be summoned by Miko onto the material plane.

[PlasticSoldier]

as a Zombie... which Belkar will then kill.


:belkar: Stab undead!
Sorry couldn't resist.

[Brickman]

Sure, Roy would have taken any chance to chase Xykon. Belkar knew this, we knew this, it was pretty clear. Blood oath and all. But had Belkar not given him the ring, he wouldn't have been able to get onto the dragon and isn't stupid enough to try. So he wouldn't have been ABLE to chase Xykon by himself, and then wouldn't have died.

[Assassinfox]

Sure, Roy would have taken any chance to chase Xykon. Belkar knew this, we knew this, it was pretty clear. Blood oath and all. But had Belkar not given him the ring, he wouldn't have been able to get onto the dragon and isn't stupid enough to try. So he wouldn't have been ABLE to chase Xykon by himself, and then wouldn't have died.

And if Roy weren't born, he couldn't have chased Xykon and gotten killed. Darn that Mrs. Greenhilt!

[Closet_Skeleton]

Also, if Belkar hadn't given Roy the ring then Roy might have got a fly spell instead and he wouldn't have fallen. Belkar knowingly gave Roy a less effective way of conducting aerial combat.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Let me ask a question of those who think this is too weak to be the fulfillment of Belkar's prophecy. Is having Grand Larceny's arrow hit Roy too weak? Because it seems about equal to me. Roy killed by an arrow (1) fired by Grand Larceny (2) off target because Belkar killed him (3). Whereas this is killed by a fall (1) after Xykon destroyed the dragon he was riding (2) that Belkar gave him the means to ride (3).

The laws of comedy dicate that Belkar's prophecy has to be fulfilled by accident. It's not funny if he drives a dagger into Windstriker's heart, but it is if a ridiculously complex serious of events technically begun by him result in Roy dying. If "In his throne room" counts as an Oracular answer, surely this works?

[Assassinfox]

(2) that Belkar gave him the means to ride (3).

Should we blame all deaths on car salesmen? Those car salesmen give murderers the means to get where they're going, and give victims the means to get to where they die. Therefore, all deaths are caused by car salesmen.

And car salesmen are just jerks anyway. :smalltongue:

[Pyrian]

Furthermore, Belkar wasn't intentionally trying to get Roy killed.

I think this could be the crux of the issue. I don't see why you assume Belkar did not intend Roy's destruction with this act. Certainly the stupidity of Roy's intent was brought up, so he can't have been unaware of it. So, you're arguing that Belkar didn't intend to cause what he knew would probably happen? That could be true, but it's hardly worthy of a blatant assumption, so let's consider Belkar's character - and that pretty much settles the matter, of course he was trying to get Roy killed, winning the bet was just a bonus. Now, if it had been Haley giving Roy the ring, the money would've been the primary motivation and helping Roy the secondary...

And if Belkar did give Roy the ring with Roy's death in mind, all the arguments about distant causalities are effectively trumped by the lethal intent they lack.

[Jayabalard]

You're right!

The lantern archons failed to kill Xykon before he could send Roy hurtling to his death. Therefore, the lantern archons caused Roy's death.

The silly drunken mage died, forcing the OotS to have to wait long enough for Xykon to attack the city. Therefore, the silly drunken mage caused Roy's death.

The silver dragon fell apart, sending Roy to his death. Therefore, the silver dragon caused Roy's death.People keep overlooking the fact that the oracle likes to give twisted answers that are technically true, like "in the throne room".

If any of those beings had asked the oracle if they would cause the death of Roy, then the oracle would have answered yes...

It's not important whether Belkar was the main cause of Roy dieing, or even if he intended Roy to be killed...

[jindra34]

People keep overlooking the fact that the oracle likes to give twisted answers that are technically true (like "in the throne room".

If any of those things had asked the oracle if they would cause the death of Roy, then the oracle would have answered yes...

The oracle also likely caused his death... how i do not know... but he did...

[Assassinfox]

The oracle also likely caused his death... how i do not know... but he did...

The oracle didn't warn Roy to get a ring of fire immunity and stock up on healing potions. The oracle caused Roy's death!

[jindra34]

The oracle didn't warn Roy to get a ring of fire immunity and stock up on healing potions. The oracle caused Roy's death!

lets stop now its too much fun...

[Jayabalard]

The oracle didn't warn Roy to get a ring of fire immunity and stock up on healing potions. The oracle caused Roy's death!and if someone had asked if the oracle was going to cause Roy's death... he'd have said yes (well, he'd probably wait until Roy wasn't around).

what could be more frustrating to Belkar than to tell him "yes you'll get your desire" and then have it snatched away from him on a technicality?

[happyturtle]

I don't think Belkar is morally responsible for Roy's death. Everyone knew it was a brave thing for him to go after Xykon alone, but I don't think they knew Xykon was so far ahead in levels that he could make mincemeat of Roy. If they had, Haley and Durkon would have stopped him from going (forceably if necessary). So Belkar probably didn't think he was sending Roy to his certain death. Nobody but Xykon and Eugene are morally responsible for Roy's death (Eugene gets some blame for giving his son a blood oath against a lich--and especially for doing it without bothering to tell him about phylacteries.)

But the chain of causation is close enough for a pedantic oracle who already has reason not to like Belkar.

[AyuVince]

No, I'm pretty sure Xykon caused Roy's death there. :smalltongue:

That was waaaaay too indirect. I doubt the Oracle's THAT mean. Besides, if Belkar can be blamed for "causing his death", so could Elan for using up his potion, Celia for giving him a shoddyy talisman, Miko for dragging them all into this quest, and Roy's mother for having him.

That's what they always told us in law class: if you stretch the responsibility part, you might as well blame the murderer's mother for being partially guilty of the crime, as she gave birth to the perpetrator.

So no, Belkar can't be made responsible for Roy's death.

[Erloas]

Belkar being part of the cause of Roy's death has nothing at all to do with other people that might also have been part of the cause. Roy's death was caused by a lot of peoples actions at some point, that doesn't change the fact that Belkar had some cause in it as well.

As for giving him the ring, that was a much higher link in Roy's death then most others. Sure he could have got a Flight spell from a number of casters, but that would have put his combat with Xykon in a completely different set of circumstances. If Roy could have flown he wouldn't have tried to force Xykon to land, which caused Xykon to get mad and toast him, since Roy could have simply flown off the dragon if he needed to. Also once Roy was falling, if he has been able to fly then there wouldn't have been any issue with him making it to the ground alive.
Roy most likely would not have ended up fighting Xykon on the dragon without the direct unquestionable actions of Belkar. But on the off chance that Roy ended up on the dragon anyway without Belkar's ring it would mean he had the ability to fly and would have changed how he handled Xykon and he wouldn't have fell to his death.

[Assassinfox]

Belkar being part of the cause of Roy's death has nothing at all to do with other people that might also have been part of the cause. Roy's death was caused by a lot of peoples actions at some point, that doesn't change the fact that Belkar had some cause in it as well.

As for giving him the ring, that was a much higher link in Roy's death then most others. Sure he could have got a Flight spell from a number of casters, but that would have put his combat with Xykon in a completely different set of circumstances. If Roy could have flown he wouldn't have tried to force Xykon to land, which caused Xykon to get mad and toast him, since Roy could have simply flown off the dragon if he needed to. Also once Roy was falling, if he has been able to fly then there wouldn't have been any issue with him making it to the ground alive.
Roy most likely would not have ended up fighting Xykon on the dragon without the direct unquestionable actions of Belkar. But on the off chance that Roy ended up on the dragon anyway without Belkar's ring it would mean he had the ability to fly and would have changed how he handled Xykon and he wouldn't have fell to his death.

If Roy could fly, do you REALLY think Xykon would just slap Roy around a bit and just fly off? Roy would chase him, make him mad some more, and Xykon would've just killed him anyway. Roy was doomed the moment he decided to take on a high-level lich.

[Jayabalard]

So no, Belkar can't be made responsible for Roy's death.The question wasn't "will I be responsible for the death of any of the following"... nor was it "will I be the sole cause of Roy's death" ... it was "do I get to cause the death of any of the following"

it doesn't necessarily mean this will be the only death that he gets to cause... but he has fulfilled his prophecy and might not get to kill any of the others.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Should we blame all deaths on car salesmen? Those car salesmen give murderers the means to get where they're going, and give victims the means to get to where they die. Therefore, all deaths are caused by car salesmen.

And car salesmen are just jerks anyway. :smalltongue:
It's not about blame, it's about cause. Is it really the "fault" of someone who tries to save one person and ends up killing another, as would have happened had it been the arrow that killed Roy? No, of course not, but they can still be said to cause it. Especially by pedantic Oracles.