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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Bestial Races - Björnin, Gnoll, Grippli, Kenku, Kercpa, Lupin, Rakasta, and Tortle



ASchmidt
2015-06-02, 09:28 AM
So having taken my stab at bringing back some of the elven subraces (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?417774-Elven-subraces-Avariel-Desert-and-Grugach) that hadn't been brought forward to 5th edition, this time I thought I'd try my hand at some of the bestial races from previous editions (and one more of my own creation... Björnin).

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oCquP-2d46zPNmrwUGcUdCqS7YTX839iJsD8IVzPOk8/edit?usp=sharing

Björnin - These are my own creation but are based on so many bearish races that have come before including the Gurahl of World of Darkness, the Norn of Guild Wars 2, and the Panserbjørne from The Golden Compass/Northern Lights by Phillip Pullman. For reference, the race name is Icelandic for "bear".

Gnolls - While they have stats listed in the DMG, here I'm trying to flesh them out a bit for use as a PC race.

Grippli - A bit out there but absolutely fun.

Kenku - Like the Gnolls, they have a brief listing in the DMG but again I wanted to flesh them out a bit. For the Flock ability I absolutely need to credit JohnLynch and Tempest_Stormwind on the Wizards Community Forums for the idea. http://community.wizards.com/forum/product-and-general-dd-discussions/threads/4182026

Kercpa - I love these little guys. I've loved them since they were first published back in Dragon 214 (in 1995!).

Lupin, Rakasta, and Tortle - Ah... Red Steel and the Savage Coast. This was an awesome campaign setting and hasn't seen much love in the 20 or so years since. I slightly tweaked the Rakasta to take influence from the host of feline humanoid races over the years. And yeah, I left out the Aranea but I couldn't figure out a way to make them work as a 5th edition race without throwing balance out the window.

I think I got these races fairly well balanced against the PHB, Elemental Evil, and Unearthed Arcana races but I'm absolutely open to feedback and would greatly appreciate it. I hope y'all enjoy...

Steampunkette
2015-06-02, 04:13 PM
Nice! I like the style you went for.

Torched Forever
2015-06-02, 05:12 PM
Bjornin
Having large PCs can cause complications. The player would be restricted in movement, have trouble finding mounts, and realistically have more expensive armor. Grappling would be very powerful though.
Gnoll
This seems a little weak unless you can just always use your bite.
Grippli
Wow, 2 feet tall! Seems to be pretty good. You have crazy mobility and a Dex bonus, sounds like a Rouge waiting to happen.
Kenku
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you already get advantage if you surprise someone? Otherwise its a pretty varied and interesting race. Not sure if flock has much value though.
Kercpa
Score decreases are something new to 5e, I'm not sure what it would yield. This race changes so much for the PC. Tiny size, and such a range of abilities. If you dual-wield finesse weapons you don't fall that far behind in damage.
Lupin
This actually doesn't seem all that good. The bite is spending a bonus action for very little damage and should be basically ignored in favor of other bonus actions. The Lupins' other traits beyond good score increases seem lackluster

Ziegander
2015-06-02, 05:24 PM
Bjornin, being Large, can wield Large-sized weapons, yes? And Large-sized weapons in 5e are an extra weapon dice, so you'd be looking at 2d8 Longbows and Longswords and 2d12 Greataxes if not 4d6 Greatswords. It's kind of a lot of damage, and I know because I ran a Large-sized Cyclops race in a campaign, and it was a little unbalancing. I could understand not starting with one at 1st level, but if the Bjornin ever encounters a Large-sized humanoid with a Large weapon, it's going to be awkward at best trying to convince them that they aren't allowed to pick up and proficiently wield a Large Greatclub or something. Because if Large monsters, such as Ogres, use Large weapons, then Large PCs are going to want Large weapons, and, in my experience, that is sort of a problem.

Ninja_Prawn
2015-06-02, 05:30 PM
Very nice.

Observations:
It's going to be hard to play a kenku, given that they can't express original thought through speech. It might be wiser to just let the adventuring ones learn to talk properly.
Is it me, or is the gnoll a bit lacking? Of all the races you tackled, gnolls are probably the one I'd most like to play, but... rampage and darkvision on their own are hardly earth-shaking.
It's always difficult to balance tiny races. I think the kercpa is ok, especially for a rogue, but the 20' movement speed could be a pain. I mean, you'd probably stay in someone's backpack while travelling, but still...
Lupin also looks a bit thin. I would be tempted to give them some resistance against poison / disease or something.
When I look at that rakasta, all I see is Lion-O...
Natural Armour is interesting on paper, but would it work at the table? You could end up with someone sitting there like "ok, I do nothing this round" half the time.

Some nitpicks:
An 8 foot creature is still 'medium'. See goliath in the Elemental Evil Player's Companion.
I like how the grippli 'Might Leap' - or, you know, it might not.
Check the PHB page 183. Your tortle's Hold Breath ability is actually weaker than the default amount of time everyone else gets.

ASchmidt
2015-06-02, 05:48 PM
Björnin - The penalties of large size (mounts, getting armor and clothing that fits, fitting in tight spaces) are completely intended... as is really the grappling. Yes, if you want to build a character around that you can but really that's what you're doing then.

The weapons part not so much. I'd be fine putting in a statement that says that you're borderline large so you don't qualify for large scaled weapons. I don't think adding in large sized weapons at a higher level would really help because that extra damage die would be huge at any level.

Gnoll & Lupin - I'll take a look at these to see if I can find something unique that fits with the race to give them a little bump.

Kenku - Flock is useful because you can grant advantage to another character... but it's only whatever advantage you have. So if you have advantage to hit, you can grant that. If you have advantage on a skill check, you can grant that. But at the cost of your bonus action.

As for the speech trait, a statement that Kenku have an excellent memory and thus have a large bank of remembered speech to pull form would help here.

I'll go back to work on Ambusher though.

Rakasta - I can look into other pictures that might help remove that Lion-O thing... part of the inspiration I pulled from was the Kzinti (Dragon 51 I think by way of Larry Niven) and they're specifically a lion-type feline humanoid.

Kercpa - This is the one I worry most about... there's some decided negatives like the 20' move and the lowered weapon damage but they're also really agile, get great climb and jump, and are hard to hit at range. I *think* it's balanced but this is one I really appreciate the extra eyes on.

Tortle - The hide in shell ability is partially for fluff, but it's one of those things I think could be useful now and then, just not often. Great AC but it hits you hard in exchange... no movement, no actions. You're just hiding in your shell. But a high dex Tortle with a shield could get some really nice AC. They just have the penalty that they won't be able to use magic armor to help their AC or pick up useful abilities.

Wartex1
2015-06-02, 06:18 PM
Why not just have the Bjornin count as Large for carry weight/shoving instances like the Goliath?

Steampunkette
2015-06-02, 06:54 PM
Alternately: Allow them to use versatile one-handed.

So while they can't swing 4d6 or 2d12 two handed they could one-hand a longsword or battle axe for 1d10.

It'd make them pretty incredible at sword and board. In the end it comes out to a net +1 average damage for one-hand fighter types, so I don't think it'd be -too- far out there. And dual-wielding fighters with the Dual Wield feat could eke out another point with an offhand battle axe over non-Bjornin.

Then again, if you really want to go for the large weapons to keep Bjornin two-handed fighters,give them a static +1 bonus with two handed heavy weapons.

eleazzaar
2015-06-02, 09:59 PM
Björnin

These are pretty cool and fairly powerful. I'd judge them to be at minimum, slightly above the most powerful PHB races. -- and that's without ascribing to them any additional benefits from being "large"

There are some things that need to be cleared up.

First 5e has no concept of "off hand".

"In addition, if you are not holding anything in your off hand, you may make an off hand claw attack as a bonus action."

Is this supposed to imply that you can only take that bonus attack action if your previous action was a claw attack?



Some nitpicks:
An 8 foot creature is still 'medium'. See goliath in the Elemental Evil Player's Companion.

I'd say that has more to do with how wide the character is than the hight. Horses are "large." But yeah-- seems unlikely that a bipedal bear "only" 8ft tall can't stand comfortably in a 5x5 square.

Gnoll:

These seem pretty weak-- i'd rank them with the bottom of the PHB power span. Rampage is much reduced by the fact that it only allows you to make a weak 1d4 attack. Consider raising the bite to 1d6, or giving them some utility.

Grippi

"You have advantage on Athletics checks."

That's pretty powerful-- flat out advantage on a skill roll is not something I think the PHB ever give a race unconditionally. And it is kinda silly. Athletics isn't just jumping and climbing, but also shoving and grappling-- Something it is hard to imagine the 2ft, 30lb creature excelling at.

With "Hoppin’ and Climbin’." sensibly limited, i'd say these guys are pretty much in line with PHB small folk power.

Frog anatomy public service announcment: the frog's hind feat on the wrong legs. Little toes should point out, not in.


Kenku
Why are they slow? It isn't as if they are so powerful they need a negative. I like the flock ability.


Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you already get advantage if you surprise someone?

That's not mentioned on p 189 of the PHB that deals with surprise.

Kercpa

Unless there's some non-obvious advantage to being "tiny", i think you have really gimped these guys. Their downsides come uncomfortably near outweighing the good sides. Disadvantage on ranged attacks is quite nice, but if they get advantage on you then you are no harder to hit than anybody else.

How ever, i like the idea-- I may try my hand at tiny squirrle people.

"You may not wear armor"

Why not? It probably isn't the optimal path, but still, why a flat prohibition.

Lupin

I'd say they were a bit below average in power.

arrowstorm
2015-06-02, 11:01 PM
I would give the kenku and gnolls advantage on searching enemies due to being scavengers. The creatures that can't wear armor could, in theory find armor, just at a much greater price. I also agree with all of the "large weapon" assessments on the Björnin.

Starcofski
2015-06-03, 12:10 PM
Björnin
Love this, the flavor, the abilities, and the capability to speak Bear is just fun. In regards to large size, I already did an exhaustive math analysis of large weapons versus the base Human and found that the difference is negligible until the early teens or so. Aside from the difficulty and cost to obtain proper gear, do you have any other drawbacks for their size?

Grippli
These guys could make for some real nasty/sneaky assassins and thieves. Love the climb speed and jumping bonuses, but I would probably have swapped the Athletics Advantage for a Swim Speed (to go with their amphibious trait).

Kenku
I have to agree with some of the others, these guys feel a little lacking, but I can't put a finger on how to fix that feeling.

Kercpa
The strength penalty is somewhat of a No-Go for 5th edition. I would suggest (as part of Tiny size) saying that their Strength is capped at 18 instead, which still incorporates the penalty, but without being a penalty.

Lupin
Really lacking here, but the base feeling is there. Maybe consider giving a skill proficiency and increasing their movement speed.

Gnoll, Rakasta, Tortle
These look relatively fine as-is.


Overall very nice presentation and thought, I might personally allow one or two of these in my own games.

eleazzaar
2015-06-03, 01:30 PM
In regards to large size, I already did an exhaustive math analysis of large weapons versus the base Human and found that the difference is negligible until the early teens or so. Aside from the difficulty and cost to obtain proper gear, do you have any other drawbacks for their size?
Is it online? Care to link?



Kercpa
The strength penalty is somewhat of a No-Go for 5th edition. I would suggest (as part of Tiny size) saying that their Strength is capped at 18 instead, which still incorporates the penalty, but without being a penalty.

Tiny-sized PC races are just as much of a "No-Go", i.e. we have no WotC examples of either, but no particular reason we can't add some.

But the ST penalty isn't in my mind a problem. But that combined with half-sized damage dice, and not much to counter-ballance is the problem.

How do you evision these guys being used? Full Casters?

Ninja_Prawn
2015-06-03, 01:50 PM
How do you evision these guys being used? Full Casters?

I can't see them being anything other than full casters or Rogues (they get a climbing speed, inbuilt stealth prof, 13+Dex AC and can hide almost anywhere). But that's not a disaster.

They could also be great DMPCs! "Toscip pops his head out of your backpack and reminds you about <plot hook>. Hey, listen!"

Chalcid
2015-06-03, 02:28 PM
Frog anatomy public service announcment: the frog's hind feat on the wrong legs. Little toes should point out, not in.

Not to derail the post, but OCD and nitpicky biologist with correction here: the picture is actually one of the few fantasy adaptation of anthropomorphic frogs that specifically got the toe arrangement in an anatomically "correct" fashion, or as close as it could, being an anthropomorphic frog to begin with.

see:

Red-eyed tree frog walking (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ajhaverkamp/4233895602/in/photolist-7s8PE3-6QYez7-pbu2JQ-6uG811-9ba8zw-gufiDq-5kXfmy-7YUg1D-eD9JQ9-9m1cuM-id9iB3-dvWfQ5-nV6V78-85QosQ-eiofzv-mhdD2i-adQE2Q-5z6jVc-9dCyvj-jiyBvA-dB3p1e-eD3Ac2-94UKCq-dDVdye-5Wpzyo-5Wg6Vg-b9zxHR-9muQwV-ctEHR7-dN1oPN-5Qo5Bn-phEv89-aceLBC-59PEcB-bjurnU-51tjt8-jiwwuz-4ctSMB-qMdxzH-7gSSM5-4ERQa2-aA5Bi1-d86S69-7YqFSy-6zcSmp-5X6oZw-8G3PcD-4SkywQ-aceLsG-7bE3xk)
Red-eyed tree frog side view (https://www.flickr.com/photos/jameskaiser_/8402723586/in/photolist-dNw9YA-avedkS-d9uzrG-6MFAD9-7YUfYi-9c9vEM-kHL9ex-qtDpHE-bxpjJ2-8UJxeU-9M5FCi-7nsFjR-4CjivX-ai1TBv-qZbq4E-q1ToJF-7YXunJ-quLCA3-7a2Z4u-qvKF9a-qek7Q3-5jYVus-7ox17E-bx3JHE-4cZAbm-9w3R64-dshzmt-8VQJPf-6QYeto-6cKEAq-9LTKkN-djHz3D-bygLuv-7k9NqB-d9qQoJ-rV3jqW-fvmmPC-9JGioH-nTeTZL-4M31NJ-jgHtfv-7k9N8x-4DHAM7-9o9Uik-jqtvXh-dYA6fj-faKCV6-bKXwa2-6QUbrB-bz83Fo)
Red-eyed tree frog crouched (https://www.flickr.com/photos/matthewscerri/11841621346/in/photolist-j3ppth-8BMz5Q-p6HbRf-4cZBzA-7oSFgK-6ixdMA-jnBKzu-8XyRJ6-jXHeWe-qjVGUq-dCxxiV-hWDS6t-8NjxND-bxpjWR-a33t1j-7s8PE3-6QYez7-pbu2JQ-6uG811-9ba8zw-gufiDq-5kXfmy-7YUg1D-eD9JQ9-9m1cuM-id9iB3-dvWfQ5-nV6V78-85QosQ-eiofzv-mhdD2i-adQE2Q-5z6jVc-9dCyvj-jiyBvA-dB3p1e-eD3Ac2-94UKCq-dDVdye-5Wpzyo-5Wg6Vg-b9zxHR-9muQwV-ctEHR7-dN1oPN-5Qo5Bn-phEv89-aceLBC-59PEcB-bjurnU)

for samples.

eleazzaar
2015-06-03, 02:36 PM
Not to derail the post, but OCD and nitpicky biologist with correction here: the picture is actually one of the few fantasy adaptation of anthropomorphic frogs that specifically got the toe arrangement in an anatomically "correct" fashion

I stand corrected. I've handled enough frogs and toads. Don't know how I got it backwards in my head.

Starcofski
2015-06-03, 04:21 PM
Is it online? Care to link?
See Sig; I tried Large Weapons, a once-per-round bonus damage die, and wielding two-handed weapons with one hand. I would say that (as is), allowing for versatile damage with one handers is the safest upgrade (without any size penalties beyond cost and scarcity). Whereas allowing a large weapon (as listed in the book) will scale pretty quickly with multiple attacks. In my case I gave Medium and smaller creatures advantage on attacks against him to offset the damage boost, following a Glass-Cannon philosophy. Note that my material is not an end-all, dealing only with averages and test cases (excluding some of the feats in the book which I couldn't quantify), but it covers an iteration of both Large Weapons and Powerful Build concepts.


Tiny-sized PC races are just as much of a "No-Go", i.e. we have no WotC examples of either, but no particular reason we can't add some.
But the ST penalty isn't in my mind a problem. But that combined with half-sized damage dice, and not much to counter-ballance is the problem.
How do you evision these guys being used? Full Casters?
Either Full Casters or Rogue characters. That size can easily benefit an attempt to hide from an enemy for additional Sneak Attacks.
Also, the penalty goes against the game's design, which is why I suggested lowering the Ability Score cap. While it does make sense that an average member of their species would be inherently weaker than an average Human, it doesn't mean that they should be able to be twice as strong as the average Human.

ASchmidt
2015-06-03, 06:07 PM
First off, wow! I'm glad to get so much feedback. I'll pour through in depth either later this evening or sometime tomorrow during the day but I did want to hit a couple items that have been brought up.

How do I envision the Kercpa being used? Frankly, they can work in almost any class although they suffer as barbarians. Full casters (bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, warlock, and wizard) are an easy fit. They do well as rogues who can really utilize their mobility, dexterity, and small size. As fighters, just do a dex-based fighter rather than strength based and they can do rather well... the weapon die limiter hurts but they can get pretty interesting as either a Battle Master or Eldritch Knight. Ranger (particularly as a Beastmaster) can be a really interesting option (there isn't much to prevent them from using any small or larger sized companion as a mount... and there are flying creatures that are large enough and have a low enough challenge rating, such as a Giant Owl). And while it's possible to play a dex-based paladin I agree that it's not optimal.

I'll take another look at the Strength for the Kercpa... the main thing I'm trying to avoid is the 1 foot 3 inch squirrel having the same drag/carry weight as the 6 foot half-orc. I understand that there's magic like the Gauntlets of Ogre Power to start with, but I've got to start somewhere close to reality (talking squirrels aside).

As for the Björnin, I would like to stick to large size both as a flavor thing and just as the opportunity to explore that side of things as a PC. Starcofski, other disadvantages to being large are the 10' facing (they take up more room, can't fit in small spaces, and can be faced by up to 12 enemies within 5' reach at a time) and a mount is going to be exceptionally hard to find as it would have to be size Huge.

ASchmidt
2015-06-04, 01:38 PM
Thanks to your many comments and suggestions, I've revised the 8 races presented with the following list of updates and additions.

Bjornin

Resolved the Large size issue by making them Medium sized but they inherit several specific abilities from Large sized creatures.
They get a +1 to damage per hand used in making an attack. So if they use one hand with a long sword they get +1 damage, if they’re using two hands (Versatile property) then they get +2 damage.
Added the Big and Tall attribute which provides a fixed cost modifier for buying clothing and armor your size.


My intention here is that by making them officially Medium but having a specific itemized set of attributes of Large creatures, it should resolve issues with their size.

Gnoll


Added the Scavenger ability which grants advantage to searching for things in a small area. (Thank you arrowstorm!)
Changed their Bite ability to use Strength or Dexterity, add either mod to the damage, and to be usable as a bonus action.


Scavenger makes Gnolls awesome for the “looting the bodies and search for treasure” ritual. And having their Bite be a bonus action gives them optional additional damage in a round depending on what other uses they have for their bonus action.

Grippli


Fixed the spelling on Mighty Leap.
Changed the Hoppin’ and Climbin’ ability to grant advantage on just climbing and jumping checks rather than all Athletics checks.
Replaced the Treefrog ability (climb speed equal to base speed) with the Amphibian Treefrog ability which grants both a climb and swim speed equal to their base walking speed.


Kenku


Changed their base speed to 30 from 25.
Added the Linguistic Scavenger ability which grants them bonus languages.


PHB pg 189. If you’re surprised, you can’t move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can’t take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren’t.

So no, you don’t normally get advantage as part of having surprise. Given that, the Ambush feature, especially when combined with the Flock feature, is pretty potent. So if you have surprise, not only do you get to attack with advantage but you can use your bonus action to let one of your party members attack with advantage as well. Beyond that, on any attack or skill check where you have advantage you can grant that advantage to another part member. It's not a small ability particularly once you start combining it with other features that grant advantage.

The new Lingual Scavengers ability - Any time they gain a language (background, class ability, feat, etc…) they gain an extra language as well. So the Linguist feat would grant 4 languages instead of 3, the Guild Artisan background would grant 2 languages instead of 1, and gaining the Knowledge Domain as a Cleric would grant 3 languages instead of 2.

I considered granting them proficiency with Insight to reflect their ability to understand meaning underlying language but frankly they have enough at this point.

Kercpa


Changed Unarmored to allow wearing armor but not to derive AC from it. This allows gaining abilities from magical armor but not to get AC from wearing armor. Simply put, at 1-1½ feet tall, Kercpa wouldn’t be able to wear armor that was actually heavy enough to derive protection from it. No matter what metal plate they had on, a normal sized mace would still turn one into road kill.
Removed the Strength penalty but added a cap of 18 in its place.
Added the ability to dash as a bonus action.


Lupin


Added Strength or Dexterity mod to bite attack and damage.
Added Lope ability granting an increased movement rate when on all fours.
Added a skill proficiency based on your breed affinity.


So now you could be an English Sheepdog based Lupin with Animal Handling, or a Doberman based Lupin with Intimidation, or whatever other breed you like. The question here then is should a Lupin’s size be medium or small depending on their breed and selected at character creation?

Rakasta


Replaced the race picture.
Added the Sense What Cannot Be Seen ability. It doesn’t allow Rakasta to see invisible or ethereal creatures, just to not be surprised by them.


Tortle


Increased the AC granted by withdrawing into their shell from 19 to 20.
Now grants advantage on saves while withdrawn into their shell.


Hold breath is an improvement over the PHB… standard is 1 minute + CON mod (minimum of 30 seconds). Tortle is a number of minutes equal to their CON score (not mod).

The bonus to saves while withdrawn gives them a potent defensive measure but at a very significant cost… they can’t move, can’t take actions or reactions, and it takes them an action to withdraw into their shell or emerge from it. So it’s very situational.

I'm considering tweaking the Natural Armor ability to withdraw into your shell a bit further by making it level dependent. Say AC 18 at level 1, AC 20 at level 6, and AC 22 at level 11. I'd love input on this.


So that's the changelog and my thoughts where appropriate. Let me know what y'all think. In the meantime, I'm working on the next set of races and will hopefully have them soonTM.

Ziegander
2015-06-04, 05:20 PM
Bjornin

They get a +1 to damage per hand used in making an attack. So if they use one hand with a long sword they get +1 damage, if they’re using two hands (Versatile property) then they get +2 damage.


I'm sure you mean this to only apply to melee weapons, but I would encourage you to only apply it to non-light melee weapons. This with the Big and Tall modifications seems fair, I like it.

ASchmidt
2015-06-04, 06:53 PM
I'm sure you mean this to only apply to melee weapons, but I would encourage you to only apply it to non-light melee weapons. This with the Big and Tall modifications seems fair, I like it.

I was thinking it would apply to all weapons, melee and ranged alike. For bows and other ranged weapons it would be representative of having a higher power bow or throwing a larger spear or what have you. Thrown weapons would add +1 damage, while bows would add +2.

Alternatively, it could just be done as a flat +1 with weapon and unarmed attacks.

Starcofski
2015-06-04, 08:00 PM
Bjornin
I like it, fixes any potential mechanical issues with a simple, easy-to-understand bonus.


Grippli
Dat Mobility; short of flying these guys are like ATVs now, love it.


Kercpa
I didn't even think about the magic armor portion, though some shenanigans would have to be done for one of these to use a magic armor found in an adventure.


Lupin
Just those two simple things (the latter two) are enough for me, and love the flavor on Lope. But don't have size determined by breed, just fur coloration and facial sculpting; keep it simple (all medium).

Steampunkette
2015-06-04, 08:39 PM
I think for ranged weapons you should swap the damage bonus around. +1 for 2 hands, +2 for 1 hand. You encourage throwing weapons, that way.

ASchmidt
2015-06-04, 09:12 PM
I think for ranged weapons you should swap the damage bonus around. +1 for 2 hands, +2 for 1 hand. You encourage throwing weapons, that way.

That's really pretty good. And makes sense that a large strong race would favor throwing weapons over bows and the like. I like.

eleazzaar
2015-06-04, 10:09 PM
Compare your Bears to the Goliath. Two "almost large" races. You add one downside (mounts) and a whole ton of really good stuff.

Being 10x10 has some downsides, but it also has upsides. If you want to tank, you can really block off more foes, and you have more spaces you can hit without moving-- I'd call it even or a worst a slight negative.

I still think this is significantly more powerful than any PHB player race. +1 damage per hand by itself is a hugely beneficial feature-- equivalent to a +4 to ST when swinging a 2-handed weapon.

If you want to give it all those good traits it should cost a level-- though I don't claim to have an idea if it is ballanced for that-- but it is in that ballpark.

ASchmidt
2015-06-04, 11:31 PM
Compare your Bears to the Goliath. Two "almost large" races. You add one downside (mounts) and a whole ton of really good stuff.

Being 10x10 has some downsides, but it also has upsides. If you want to tank, you can really block off more foes, and you have more spaces you can hit without moving-- I'd call it even or a worst a slight negative.

I still think this is significantly more powerful than any PHB player race. +1 damage per hand by itself is a hugely beneficial feature-- equivalent to a +4 to ST when swinging a 2-handed weapon.

If you want to give it all those good traits it should cost a level-- though I don't claim to have an idea if it is ballanced for that-- but it is in that ballpark.

Let me break down the abilities I've listed for the Björnin...

Ability Score Increase. Neutral - This is the standard +2/+1 distribution.

Big and Tall. Penalty - It's a small penalty (how often do you actually buy clothing or armor) and the impact is largely felt at lower levels. The DM however may make you feel the impact throughout your career by not letting you wear armor sized for more human sized races which would make magic armor and clothing much harder to come by.

Claws. Very Minor Bonus - Given how easy it is to obtain and be proficient in a 1d6 light finesse weapon (scimitar and short sword come to mind) its not much of a bonus. And that's if you even use them because if you're melee focused, you're probably going for a two-hander given the race's strength bonus. Its nice to be armed at all times but this ability is much more about the flavor and much less about being a big bonus.

Bear Hug. Situational Bonus - This looks really cool and sounds potent... except that it requires that you use your claw attack to get the bonus and as we just saw, you're generally better off not using your claws. A build focused around using your claws and grapple can be nicely effective but it's a build centered around doing those two things... claw attacks and grappling, it should be effective at what its doing.

Keen Smell. Very Minor Bonus - You get advantage with only one sense and it's the one that is least frequently used (among Sight, Hearing, and Smell). In our campaign, I'm not sure that the DM has called for a smell perception check yet.

Speak with Bears. Ribbon - This will be useful so infrequently that it is more about flavor than being a bonus. If you made a Beastmaster Ranger with a bear pet this could be useful but you get Speak with Animals as a Ranger spell anyway.

Languages. Neutral - You get two languages just like pretty much every race does.

So at this point we've got a penalty, a couple neutral items, and some minor or situational bonuses that are generally useful only if you start wrapping a build around them.

Size. This one has several bullets so we'll tackle them one at a time.

Carrying Capacity. Bonus - This is probably one of the nicer features... you get doubled lift/carry.

10 x 10. Neutral - This is a bonus by allowing you to block off a larger space and it's a penalty because you have more facing which allows more creatures to attack you at the same time. I'd say it's a wash and may lean toward being a penalty more because only tankish builds will gain the benefit of blocking off a larger space while most all builds can feel the penalty side of this but then Björnin do favor being a tank so we'll just call it neutral... neither a bonus or a penalty. Don't forget those 5 foot corridors and human sized doors... find another way through or be at disadvantage for being in a confined space.

Considered Large for Grappling. Bonus - This one is actually a nice bonus but it's not what it was in earlier editions. All this does in 5th is define the sizes of creatures that you can grapple and those that are eligible to try to grapple you. Being considered Large rather than Medium means that you can try to grapple Huge creatures (be careful, most of them have really high Strength scores) and Small creatures are ineligible to try to grapple you. That's all this does. Per page 195 in the PHB there are no bonuses or penalties to the roll for being larger or smaller than your grapple target.

Bonus Damage on Attacks. Bonus - This is absolutely a bonus but I don't think it's quite as large as you're making it out to be. The Duelist Fighting Style grants +2 to damage on all one-handed weapons while not holding a weapon in your other hand. In other words, it's +2 damage per attack. This ability for Björnin amounts to the same thing or slightly less (if you're dual wielding such as trying to make the most out of the claws above, you'll get +1 per attack and then +1 more if you use your bonus action to make an "off hand" claw attack. Definitely less than the +2 per attack with Duelist.

And if you forego using your claws and use a two handed weapon instead (thus giving up the benefit of your claws and the Bear Hug ability and being considered Large for grappling), then you get the same +2 damage per attack that you can get via Duelist... and it can't stack with Duelist because Duelist only applies to one handed weapons.

It's definitely bonus damage and it's nice... but even for a fighter with 4 attacks per round (at level 20) you can at best get an extra 8 damage per round out of it. By all means nice but not earth shaking.

You Can Move Through Small and Tiny Creatures. Neutral - First, let's move Tiny out of this because all Medium creatures can move through Tiny creatures and vice versa. And while you can move through the occupied squares of Small creatures, they can move through yours too. Which if you're trying to be a tank blocking off an area, that's not helping you.

Mounts Must Be Huge. Penalty - Frankly, this pretty much eliminates having a mount. Yes you could get an elephant or something like that, but those are pretty rare in most campaigns. Bottom line, how much of a penalty this is depends on your DM and how much they're going to mess with you for not having a mount (travel speed, exhaustion, etc...).

So that's it... the damage bonus is nice and is their best feature but it isn't epic. I could tone it down to a flat +1 but that would reward dual wielding more than two-handers and I'm trying to keep that tension between the options so that you can go two-hander and get better damage, but then you're not getting the benefits of your claw and grappling features. And to get the most out of your claw and grappling features, you're almost certainly going to pick up one or more of the useful feats (Dual Wielder, Grappler, and/or Tavern Brawler) which is limiting your ability to apply your ASI's to your attributes.

As best as I can run the numbers, on average it means getting a +1 damage per attack compared to other races. You get some minor bonuses and some minor penalties and a number of flavor abilities. There are no bonus skill proficiencies which are common to most races. No spell like abilities (dragonborn, elves, gnomes, and tieflings) or bonuses to defense (dwarves). Heck, you don't even get darkvision and just about everyone gets that.

Are they better at racking up DPA/DPR? Probably by a very small amount (like 5% at most and I think it's less than that considering Half-Orcs). If anything, their largest flaw is that most of their benefits and penalties are combat focused and there's not quite enough non-combat items.

Please tell me if you think I'm wrong. I'll honestly read what you have to say with an open mind. My statements in this post are not intended to present these arguments as definitive truth... just what I'm thinking in including these abilities and penalties for the Björnin.

eleazzaar
2015-06-05, 10:37 AM
I'll respond to the two points that I rate significantly differently. I'm by no means the most experienced player, but I'm facinated by the elegance of the 5e system, and have been trying to understand it, in part for my own homebrew race building.



Claws. Very Minor Bonus - Given how easy it is to obtain and be proficient in a 1d6 light finesse weapon (scimitar and short sword come to mind) its not much of a bonus. And that's if you even use them because if you're melee focused, you're probably going for a two-hander given the race's strength bonus. Its nice to be armed at all times but this ability is much more about the flavor and much less about being a big bonus.

Bear Hug. Situational Bonus - This looks really cool and sounds potent... except that it requires that you use your claw attack to get the bonus and as we just saw, you're generally better off not using your claws. A build focused around using your claws and grapple can be nicely effective but it's a build centered around doing those two things... claw attacks and grappling, it should be effective at what its doing.


Grappling can be very effective in 5e (especially with the Grappler feat). And you have given the Bjornin 3 abilities that synergize strongly with grappling.


1) He counts for Large for grappling, so can grapple creatures 1 size larger (Huge)
2) He has the claws, so he can remain armed and grapple up to two opponants
3) Bear Hug: basicially he gets to make a pretty competetive attack, and if the attack lands he gets a free grapple.
4) (Arguable) If he wants to move the grappled creature, he can lift/drag a creature twice as heavy as anyone else, though the "moving a grappled creature" rules don't directly take weight into account, I expect some GMs would pull in the lift/drag/push rules.


Let's look at the claws. If you want a hand free for grappling, the best damage you can do is 1d8, Bjornin get a +1 to damage, which gives their 1d6 equivalent average damage of a 1d8 weapon.

But the Bjornin can weild a battle axe or other d8 weapon in one hand, getting average damamge comparable to most 2-handed wepaons, and still grapple whenever he wants, and instead of forgoing the damage on the grappling turns-- just do slightly less damage.

There may be shenanigans that can be based on the claws being unarmed, light, and finessable, Rogue/Monks? But that's beyond my area of familiarity.

And then there are those rare situations where the PCs get captured or otherwise disarmed. Bjornin are still carrying two effective d8 weapons. Situational but rather nice.



Considered Large for Grappling. Being considered Large rather than Medium means that you can try to grapple Huge creatures (be careful, most of them have really high Strength scores)

Yeah, but don't forget that a Bjornin will probably have athletics. I don't have the MM, but searching the DM's Basic Rules, the largest Huge creature strength mod is a +8, an Adult Red Dragon. But most have a +5 or +6 STR mod. A L1 Bjornin will have a +5 to grapple (with altheletics and a 16 STR), so He is evenly matched with a +5 STR Mod creatures such as Hill Giant, Hydra, or Giant Crocodile in a grappling contest. I expect a Bjornin will have at least a 50% chance to succeed in grappling any huge creature they meet that's level appropriate.




Bonus Damage on Attacks. Bonus - This is absolutely a bonus but I don't think it's quite as large as you're making it out to be. The Duelist Fighting Style grants +2 to damage on all one-handed weapons while not holding a weapon in your other hand. In other words, it's +2 damage per attack. This ability for Björnin amounts to the same thing or slightly less (if you're dual wielding such as trying to make the most out of the claws above, you'll get +1 per attack and then +1 more if you use your bonus action to make an "off hand" claw attack. Definitely less than the +2 per attack with Duelist.

And if you forego using your claws and use a two handed weapon instead (thus giving up the benefit of your claws and the Bear Hug ability and being considered Large for grappling), then you get the same +2 damage per attack that you can get via Duelist... and it can't stack with Duelist because Duelist only applies to one handed weapons.

It's definitely bonus damage and it's nice... but even for a fighter with 4 attacks per round (at level 20) you can at best get an extra 8 damage per round out of it. By all means nice but not earth shaking.

Getting a +1 or +2 to something is pretty rare in 5e, so even if it doesn't amount to much-- it is still significant, because the similar minor bonuses you'll be able to accrue is small.

But when ballancing a race I don't think you should just look at the magnatude of the bonuses-- but also what builds the race is obviously the best at. A lot of people will simply choose which race is best for what they want to do. And if a single race is the best at a number of builds/roles then it probably is not well ballanced. (I'm going to ignore variant human, because arguably it will be the best or one of the top two or three at any kind of character concept due to the power of the feat.)


So you want to deal damage with a ST weapon? Bjornin or maybe Half-Orc are the best.
You want to grapple? Bjornin are the best by a good margin.
You want to block the enemy? Bjornin with a reach weapon are can attack (and AOE) anything in a 30x30 square.
Probably the best at several builds that offer sub-optimal damage that Bjornin's bonus damage brings up to normal damage.




Mounts Must Be Huge. Penalty - Frankly, this pretty much eliminates having a mount. Yes you could get an elephant or something like that, but those are pretty rare in most campaigns. Bottom line, how much of a penalty this is depends on your DM and how much they're going to mess with you for not having a mount (travel speed, exhaustion, etc...).

At the DM's discretion the 1st level spell "Find Steed" could take care of the problem. But yeah, weather this matters at all or a lot is up to the DM.[/QUOTE]



Note there are the "Squeezing into a Smaller Space" rules on PHB p 192. You don't apply them to your custom-large size, but I think they should be.

ASchmidt
2015-06-05, 12:55 PM
I'll respond to the two points that I rate significantly differently. I'm by no means the most experienced player, but I'm facinated by the elegance of the 5e system, and have been trying to understand it, in part for my own homebrew race building.

Grappling can be very effective in 5e (especially with the Grappler feat). And you have given the Bjornin 3 abilities that synergize strongly with grappling.


1) He counts for Large for grappling, so can grapple creatures 1 size larger (Huge)
2) He has the claws, so he can remain armed and grapple up to two opponants
3) Bear Hug: basicially he gets to make a pretty competetive attack, and if the attack lands he gets a free grapple.
4) (Arguable) If he wants to move the grappled creature, he can lift/drag a creature twice as heavy as anyone else, though the "moving a grappled creature" rules don't directly take weight into account, I expect some GMs would pull in the lift/drag/push rules.


Let's look at the claws. If you want a hand free for grappling, the best damage you can do is 1d8, Bjornin get a +1 to damage, which gives their 1d6 equivalent average damage of a 1d8 weapon.

But the Bjornin can weild a battle axe or other d8 weapon in one hand, getting average damamge comparable to most 2-handed wepaons, and still grapple whenever he wants, and instead of forgoing the damage on the grappling turns-- just do slightly less damage.

There may be shenanigans that can be based on the claws being unarmed, light, and finessable, Rogue/Monks? But that's beyond my area of familiarity.

And then there are those rare situations where the PCs get captured or otherwise disarmed. Bjornin are still carrying two effective d8 weapons. Situational but rather nice.


Very well presented points. And from what I'm seeing, the simplest and smallest change that would address many of these issues would be to remove the light attribute from the Björnin's claw attack. What this would mean is that you wouldn't be able to make an "off hand" (or main hand with an off hand weapon) claw attack unless you first picked up the Dual Wielder feat.

I'm somewhat hesitant to do this but one possibility would be to make the damage bonus only apply to one attack per round. Phrase it such that the player can decide whether to apply the damage bonus after a hit has been determined (much like Sneak Attack in that sense) so they're likely to get it each round once they have multiple attacks per round but only once per round.


Yeah, but don't forget that a Bjornin will probably have athletics. I don't have the MM, but searching the DM's Basic Rules, the largest Huge creature strength mod is a +8, an Adult Red Dragon. But most have a +5 or +6 STR mod. A L1 Bjornin will have a +5 to grapple (with altheletics and a 16 STR), so He is evenly matched with a +5 STR Mod creatures such as Hill Giant, Hydra, or Giant Crocodile in a grappling contest. I expect a Bjornin will have at least a 50% chance to succeed in grappling any huge creature they meet that's level appropriate.


True, but the Huge creature will also automatically succeed on any attempt to escape the grapple unless the Björnin has the Grappler feat. Now the "optimum grappler" would require two feats (Dual Wielder and Grappler) to make their grapple build work and they wouldn't be able to devote an ASI to Strength until level 8 presuming they're a fighter.

One possible adjustment would be to change the Bear Hug ability to require a Bonus Action to initiate the Grapple after an attack. That would eliminate the "weapon and claw" and "claw/claw" grapple options.


Getting a +1 or +2 to something is pretty rare in 5e, so even if it doesn't amount to much-- it is still significant, because the similar minor bonuses you'll be able to accrue is small.

But when ballancing a race I don't think you should just look at the magnatude of the bonuses-- but also what builds the race is obviously the best at. A lot of people will simply choose which race is best for what they want to do. And if a single race is the best at a number of builds/roles then it probably is not well ballanced. (I'm going to ignore variant human, because arguably it will be the best or one of the top two or three at any kind of character concept due to the power of the feat.)


So you want to deal damage with a ST weapon? Bjornin or maybe Half-Orc are the best.
You want to grapple? Bjornin are the best by a good margin.
You want to block the enemy? Bjornin with a reach weapon are can attack (and AOE) anything in a 30x30 square.
Probably the best at several builds that offer sub-optimal damage that Bjornin's bonus damage brings up to normal damage.




Strength damage melee builds... Björnin are good, but I'd argue that Half-Orc, Mountain Dwarf, and Human (Alternate) can all rival Björnin. While I'm not sure about reducing the bonus damage to once per round, that would absolutely remove Björnin from the top of the pile.

Removing the light property from their claws would tone down their grappling a fair bit.

Blocking the enemy... A group of goblins will eat a Björnin for lunch. 12 of them can surround him and they can move through his squares with impunity.


At the DM's discretion the 1st level spell "Find Steed" could take care of the problem. But yeah, weather this matters at all or a lot is up to the DM.

The mount issue is one I'm really comfortable with as is. The wording on Find Steed gives a range of suggested mounts it could summon so in this case, the trick would be finding a Huge size mount that has a comparable Challenge Rating to say a Warhorse. As things are with just the Monster Manual available as a source of creatures, a Warhorse is CR 1/2 and the lowest CR Huge sized creature is an Elephant with a CR of 4. Definitely not comparable and as a DM I'd raise a flag on that one.

Oh, and Find Steed is 2nd level. So you can't grab it with Magic Initiate. You'd have to be a Bard getting the spell via Magic Secrets or have 5 levels of Paladin. I know there's some homebrew classes that have access to Find Steed (I wrote one) but that's pretty edge case.


Note there are the "Squeezing into a Smaller Space" rules on PHB p 192. You don't apply them to your custom-large size, but I think they should be.

Absolutely agreed on that and I'll more than happily add a reference for that in the size info.

eleazzaar
2015-06-05, 03:47 PM
True, but the Huge creature will also automatically succeed on any attempt to escape the grapple unless the Björnin has the Grappler feat.

The third bullet point of the Grappler feat is a mistake. It refers to a rule that's not actually in the final version of 5e.

Sage Advice: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/13/grappler-feat-third-bullet/

ASchmidt
2015-06-06, 09:32 AM
After all the discussion about Björnin, here's what I'm looking at for specific changes...

Change Bear Hug to require a Bonus Action to initiate a grapple after a successful claw attack. This tones down the grappling bonuses considerably without removing their ability to make two claw attacks or a weapon and claw attack.

Change the bonus damage on attack to only apply to one successful Strength-based attack per round dealing a flat 1 point of extra damage, increasing to 2 points at 6th level and then increasing to 3 points at 11th level. The restriction to Strength-based attacks removes the bonus from attacks where it's more about precision than hitting hard. The increase to 2 points 6th and finally 3 points at 11th restores some of the scaling lost by not allowing the damage bonus to apply each attack. And the bonus itself gives a nod to the larger stature of the Björnin without making them an obviously better choice when making a Strength-based melee/thrown weapon attacker. Compared to what I had previously (1 extra damage per hand used in the attack), this cuts the bonus damage per round in half.

Add the following bullet point in the Size section: You are considered Large for the purpose of Squeezing into a Smaller Space as noted on page 192 of the PHB.

Please feel free to comment and make suggestions.

eleazzaar
2015-06-06, 09:40 AM
Change the bonus damage on attack to only apply to one successful Strength-based attack per round dealing a flat 1 point of extra damage, increasing to 2 points at 6th level and then increasing to 3 points at 11th level. The restriction to Strength-based attacks removes the bonus from attacks where it's more about precision than hitting hard. The increase to 2 points 6th and finally 3 points at 11th restores some of the scaling lost by not allowing the damage bonus to apply each attack. And the bonus itself gives a nod to the larger stature of the Björnin without making them an obviously better choice when making a Strength-based melee/thrown weapon attacker. Compared to what I had previously (1 extra damage per hand used in the attack), this cuts the bonus damage per round in half.

The other two changes seem to me good, and very much in keeping with 5e style.

The bonus damage one, though seem kind of complicated for something that would be used so frequently. It is more rules that I'd want to deal with about when to add a +1

ASchmidt
2015-06-06, 09:43 AM
The other two changes seem to me good, and very much in keeping with 5e style.

The bonus damage one, though seem kind of complicated for something that would be used so frequently. It is more rules that I'd want to deal with about when to add a +1

Here's the exact text I was looking at using...

Powerful Blows. Once per turn, you can deal 1 extra damage to one creature you hit with a Strength-based attack. This bonus increases to 2 extra damage at 6th level and to 3 extra damage at 11th level.

Other than "Strength-based attack", it's almost exactly the text used to describe a Rogue's Sneak Attack.

M Placeholder
2015-06-07, 09:04 AM
As for size, I would have Lupin in small, medium and large. Something like the counterpart to a Saint Bernard would probably weigh well over 270 pounds and easily stand over 7 foot tall.

ASchmidt
2015-06-07, 11:36 AM
This should be the final update to this set of races...

Björnin - Just a small set of changes...

Change Bear Hug to require a Bonus Action to initiate a grapple after a successful claw attack. This tones down the grappling bonuses considerably without removing their ability to make two claw attacks or a weapon and claw attack.
Change the bonus damage on attack to only apply to one successful Strength-based attack per round dealing a flat 1 point of extra damage, increasing to 2 points at 6th level and then increasing to 3 points at 11th level. The restriction to Strength-based attacks removes the bonus from attacks where it's more about precision than hitting hard. The increase to 2 points 6th and finally 3 points at 11th restores some of the scaling lost by not allowing the damage bonus to apply each attack. And the bonus itself gives a nod to the larger stature of the Björnin without making them an obviously better choice when making a Strength-based melee/thrown weapon attacker. Compared to what I had previously (1 extra damage per hand used in the attack), this cuts the bonus damage per round in half.
Add the following bullet point in the Size section: You are considered Large for the purpose of Squeezing into a Smaller Space as noted on page 192 of the PHB.


Lupin - Updated the flavor text and Size information to reflect a range from 3 to 7 feet in height and the option to choose to be either size Small or Medium at character creation based on your breed. This is all homebrew, so if you prefer that all lupin are 5-6 feet tall and about the same size, it's all good. I went for it mainly because a lupin that's got a strong affinity to a Saint Bernard or Great Pyrenees should feel bigger than a Doberman. Playing a small breed lupin feels a bit weird to me (god help me, lupin Corgis) but that may be someone else's cup of tea. So bottom line, if you don't like the small breeds or want to tone down the influence of breeds, go for it and make the changes that work best for you.