Roleplaying afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VI [Archive]

afroakuma

2015-06-02, 12:36 PM

Once more unto the breach, with the sixth thread in the still-popular series. Having noted a tendency for questions to get beyond Planescape very quickly, I've accepted the inevitable and put it up in the title. We (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265884) have (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272393) now (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=299450) had (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?317316-afroakuma-s-Planar-Questions-Thread-IV) five (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?372289-afroakuma-s-Planar-And-Other-Oddities-Questions-Thread-5!) such threads, and I hope this one continues the long tradition of fun discussion, investigating the most minute odds and ends of the D&D mythos, and a minimum of decapitation threats.

If this is your first visit to my threads, be prepared for loads and loads of terminology, new ideas and more than a little narcissistic grandstanding as I attempt to clear the hurdles of twenty-odd years of fluff buildup. There are a lot of regulars, but we like new faces. A cursory attempt to search the past threads before asking your question would be appreciated, since 1) we've got the Search Thread function back and 2) I get a lot of repeat questions. If it happens again, it happens, but if it can be avoided then so much the better.

This time, I'd like to ask regulars to submit any selections from past threads that they found particularly valuable, noteworthy or otherwise useful to have linked in this first post. If there's a past answer or article or other element from one of these threads that you liked, please bring it to my attention in-thread or via PM.

Once again, the fundamentals:

Basic Rules

• We'll be going with canonical information wherever possible, wherein this refers to all sources from 3.5 and prior. 4E and beyond are irrelevant to me where this thread is concerned.

• I'll conjecture on demand and supply tidbits from my own extensive work on the Planes where relevant, but these will always be pointed out.

• 99% of the time, I'm not interested in breaking down sources. That requires a lot of digging about more often than not, and it's a very big library that I'm drawing from. If you really feel the need to contest something, try to be nice about it; I don't like having to plunge into the boxes to find the right book or magazine unless I'm not sure of something. This is especially relevant since I've just moved a second time and had to repack all of the material; research now involves me jumping into the storage... corridor thing... to knock boxes around.

• I assume all or nearly all published settings to be connected in the same multiverse; this means both Spelljammer and Planescape, as well as worlds that try to remain separate such as Athas and Eberron, are all part of the same ball of wax as far as I'm concerned. Mystara is also considered included, and its cosmological uniqueness is interpreted through the lens of the Great Wheel.

• There are very few sources that don't bring something to the table, but sometimes what's written has been done with rather more expedient and financial goals in mind than staying true to canon or respecting the work of past authors. In particular, the Races series from 3.5 notoriously threw out the old racial pantheons and started over with a lot of similar deities. Where this sort of laziness has been evident, older sources are considered to prevail within the context of this thread.

• This thread has nothing to do with Pathfinder and I'm not particularly capable of (or interested in) answering questions involving Golarion. All questions will be addressed as D&D questions using the 3.5 edition rules to the extent possible.

Core Concepts

• The planes as will be most commonly acknowledged in this thread include: the Material Plane; the Ethereal, Astral and Shadow Planes; the Positive and Negative Energy Planes; the Elemental Planes of Air, Earth, Fire and Water; the Para-Elemental Planes of Ice, Magma, Ooze and Smoke; the Quasi-Elemental Planes of Ash, Dust, Lightning, Minerals, Radiance, Salt, Steam and Vacuum; the seventeen major Outer Planes; and the Far Realm. Other planes that may be mentioned with some degree of frequency but lie within the realm of speculation are the Ordial Plane, the Planes of Cordance, the Semi-Elemental Planes, the Near Realm, the Vast Medium and any of those not already named that are located in the 3.X Manual of the Planes, as well as demiplanes.

• The term exemplar or exemplar race may be used a great deal in this thread. These terms refer to the major entities of pure alignment that reside on the Outer Planes: archons, guardinals, eladrins, slaad, tanar'ri, yugoloths, baatezu, modrons and rilmani.

• I've been finding it convenient to concoct terminology for the major PC races and their most common foes. The term "proud races" refers to the most commonly encountered modern civilized races of the Prime Material Plane: humans, dwarves, elves, gnomes and halflings. The terms "vilekith" and "vile races" refer to the most commonly encountered modern barbarous races of the Prime Material Plane: gnolls, goblinoids, kobolds, orcs and ogres.

• When discussing worlds of the Material Plane, I often turn to referencing their spatial location on a star chart made for Spelljammer. As there is no official chart to consult, I work off of an extensively detailed and thoroughly researched fanmade chart by Nerik (http://nerik.orpheusweb.co.uk/files/Spelljammer/Flow_map_01-12-12.pdf) (warning: huge). This chart represents the Arcane Inner Flow quadrant of the primary "galaxy" of Spelljammer. This "galaxy" is known as arcane space after the beings that ruthlessly control its spelljamming helm supply and the secret of the lanes that connect the heart of the region to its border, known as the Arcane Outer Flow or AOF. If I note something as being on or near to the AOF, it represents a significant distance from the center of arcane space and from the most well-known worlds in this quadrant (Oerth, Krynn and Toril).

• Zargon is not an ancient baatorian. That is all.

Happy questioning! :smallsmile:

GilesTheCleric

2015-06-02, 01:41 PM

This is, surprisingly, my first post to one of these threads, so I hope I'm doing the "other oddities" bit right.

Q1:What can you tell me about the FR deity Kiputytto, who was apparently usurped by Talona? What domains does Kiputytto have, or where might I go for more information?

Q2:The faerunian pantheon was made of five or more pantheons that merged, including the Netherese pantheon, Talfiric pantheon, Jhaamdathan pantheon, Coram****e pantheon, as well as others like the Untheric pantheon. What other pantheons merged into the faerunian one, and are there some detailed lists of the deities of each?

Q3: Is the Eberron deity Kalok Shash "the binding flame" a cult of The Silver Flame? The two are compared directly in the entry on Kalok Shash, but it's never said explicitly.

Tzardok

2015-06-02, 01:52 PM

Well here we go again,
it's always such a pleasure.:smallbiggrin:

For the beginning I'd like to ask about the Vast Medium. The only thing I found about it is from your Expedition to the Far Realm snippets. So I ask: What is it?

Besides I'd like to know about the realm of Fae/Fairy. Where is it? In what way interacts it with the Great Wheel? Is there more about it than what is written in Manual of the Planes?

Sian

2015-06-02, 01:55 PM

Q4: which (if any) playable races exists natively on the positive plane other than Lumi?

pwykersotz

2015-06-02, 02:40 PM

Are there any sources which have (at least somewhat) detailed information about general locations in Stygia other than Ankhwugat or Sheyruushk? I found something called the Black Kingdom on the internets on which I can't find any info.

The reason for asking is my gamers will be visiting Stygia soon for certain reasons, and I have plenty of details regarding Tantlin and certain specific sites, but far less about territories in general. I'd like to be able to tie in their story to something bigger.

And if there are no significant sources, do you have any suggestions on what canonical information not to run afoul of while creating new territories?

ksbsnowowl

2015-06-02, 02:52 PM

I'm about to start Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, which places the PC's in Sigil several times (it is a base, of sorts) throughout the adventure. I have a few questions about Sigil's portals, and exactly how they work.

Each portal needs a key, but it could be physical objects, a thought held in the traveler's mind, anything...

Q5: Once activated by the correct key, how long does the portal remain open?

For example, if the key is a cold iron dagger, does the portal remain open only for the holder of said dagger as he passes through (which would mean each PC needs his own cold iron dagger)? Or would one cold iron dagger open the portal for a short time, allowing a party to pass through with only one physical key?

Q6: In the case of a physical object serving as the key, does the object pass through the portal unharmed? Or is it consumed in passing through the portal?

atemu1234

2015-06-02, 02:56 PM

What situations would cause a Demon Lord and an Archdevil work together?

afroakuma

2015-06-02, 11:16 PM

Q1:What can you tell me about the FR deity Kiputytto, who was apparently usurped by Talona? What domains does Kiputytto have, or where might I go for more information?

Kiputytto was a demipower, one of the interloper Finnish deities who established themselves in Faerun (others include Loviatar and Mielikki). Known as the Mother of the Plague, she made her realm, Feculence, on Cathrys, second layer of Carceri. Her holy symbol was a battered metal bowl over a flame, and her alignment was chaotic evil. In a time long ago, Kiputytto waged war with Talona over the portfolio of disease. Each sent plague and disaster into the city of Asram, one of the surviving enclaves of Netheril. Kiputytto's plague was by far the more successful, but its wake of death resulted in fewer voices able to pray to her for mercy, and she lost the battle. Kiputytto appeared as a black-skinned and heavily-scarred crone; her worshipers frequently bore heavy scarring as well. Her domains are unknown, as is her favored weapon.

Q2:The faerunian pantheon was made of five or more pantheons that merged, including the Netherese pantheon, Talfiric pantheon, Jhaamdathan pantheon, Coram****e pantheon, as well as others like the Untheric pantheon. What other pantheons merged into the faerunian one, and are there some detailed lists of the deities of each?

We don't have a fully comprehensive list, or even decent lists, of the fragmentary pantheons of Faerun. I would expect that in addition to those listed, the unidentified others referred to are meant to indicate the interloper deities who have become key elements of the Faerunian pantheon. Fans at Candlekeep have been working on sorting these out, of course, and some fairly good ideas on the matter can be fou

Q3: Is the Eberron deity Kalok Shash "the binding flame" a cult of The Silver Flame? The two are compared directly in the entry on Kalok Shash, but it's never said explicitly.

In D&D canon, whatever is not said explicitly, especially in such an oblique fashion, is intended for the individual DM to decide.

For the beginning I'd like to ask about the Vast Medium. The only thing I found about it is from your Expedition to the Far Realm snippets. So I ask: What is it?

The Vast Medium, such as it might be, would be the "intermultiversal medium" that enfolds and separates all multiverses.

Besides I'd like to know about the realm of Fae/Fairy. Where is it? In what way interacts it with the Great Wheel? Is there more about it than what is written in Manual of the Planes?

This was addressed in a previous thread, I believe. Please do a search. If you don't find anything, I'll address any questions you still have.

Q4: which (if any) playable races exists natively on the positive plane other than Lumi?

Glimmerskins are technically playable, though with an ECL that high you wouldn't want to. You're asking an awful lot to even hope for "native to an energy plane," let alone a playable one. Vivacious creatures would also qualify and are an easier route, although that LA is ugly.

Are there any sources which have (at least somewhat) detailed information about general locations in Stygia other than Ankhwugat or Sheyruushk? I found something called the Black Kingdom on the internets on which I can't find any info.

I assume you mean other than the diabolical holdings, since those are obvious. I don't find any reference to a "black kingdom" that pertains to Stygia the D&D planar layer. Some infernal locations can be found in FCII. The only divine realm other than those you know is The Steadfast Chill, realm of the Cerilian goddess Kreisha.

And if there are no significant sources, do you have any suggestions on what canonical information not to run afoul of while creating new territories?

Levistus is in charge, Geryon used to be... not sure what you could really get off center here, as long as you remember it's by and large a friddly cold place.

Each portal needs a key, but it could be physical objects, a thought held in the traveler's mind, anything...

Q5: Once activated by the correct key, how long does the portal remain open?

Depends upon the portal, but almost always long enough for a traveler to pass through. In many cases of a keyed portal, the portal will only be open for those bearing the key. Remember, a portal is not necessarily like a door - it can be effectively a "state" that authorizes certain entrants to pass on to other destinations. You and I might be tied together and leaping into the same portal sideways and it will only admit you because you bear the key.

For example, if the key is a cold iron dagger, does the portal remain open only for the holder of said dagger as he passes through (which would mean each PC needs his own cold iron dagger)? Or would one cold iron dagger open the portal for a short time, allowing a party to pass through with only one physical key?

Depends upon the portal. If unspecified, you may rule as you choose.

Q6: In the case of a physical object serving as the key, does the object pass through the portal unharmed? Or is it consumed in passing through the portal?

Dependsupon the portal. I'd adjudicate based on the thematics of the portal - are you planting a seed that blooms into a doorway? Consumed. Tracing a line with a silver dagger? Probably not, but who knows? Maybe the dagger melts and becomes the boundary of the portal.

What situations would cause a Demon Lord and an Archdevil work together?

Well, if the Archduke of Chocolate and the Demon Lord of Peanut Butter were combined... :smallwink:

Naanomi

2015-06-03, 08:29 AM

Tzardok

2015-06-03, 08:32 AM

As Gehenna's earthburgs are infinitly high, so that you can never reach the top nor the root of the vulcane, I don't see your problem.

atemu1234

2015-06-03, 11:16 AM

Well, if the Archduke of Chocolate and the Demon Lord of Peanut Butter were combined... :smallwink:

Maybe I should specify...

What enemies would be powerful enough to forge a temporary alliance between an Archdevil and a Demon Lord?

enderlord99

2015-06-03, 11:24 AM

You and I might be tied together and leaping into the same portal sideways and it will only admit you because you bear the key.

...And also because the Lady doesn't like beings as powerful as you are in Sigil in the first place, so you wouldn't be able to enter. Right?

afroakuma

2015-06-03, 05:24 PM

I understand the infinite nature of the planes makes the 'how are there infinite Gods' not that big of a problem but...

Gehenna has infinite space but limited land to put stuff. Assuming the Gods are at least somewhat distributed in their Outer Planes habitation, how is Gehenna not wall-to-wall Divine Realms of petty Gods from backwater Primes trying to make a home there? Are some Gods (an infinite number I suppose) forced to make their lairs in the void between earthburgs? Or does Gehenna uniquely have a limited number of Gods living on it?

Some few gods do in fact live on private little islands in the void, but the vast majority reside on one of the mounts. While the land has an "edge," it is still a component of an infinite plane; Khalas, Chamada, Mungoth and Krangath are all circumferentially infinite, so it's not really all that crowded. How does that even work? Outer Planes. :smalltongue:

I should mention, most gods who inhabit Gehenna maintain their realms on the first two furnaces. Mungoth and Krangath, as with many other "deep" layers, have far fewer permanent residents.

What enemies would be powerful enough to forge a temporary alliance between an Archdevil and a Demon Lord?

The very notion is kind of absurd.

...And also because the Lady doesn't like beings as powerful as you are in Sigil in the first place, so you wouldn't be able to enter. Right?

Oh I would most definitely not be allowed into Sigil.

Werephilosopher

2015-06-03, 05:35 PM

Oryan77

2015-06-03, 07:17 PM

How much control does a person have when controlling matter on Limbo?

More specifically:

1. Can he shape the terrain however he wishes (i.e., create a field of earth with a 10-ft mound, a 10-ft pit, a raging river, a 5-ft flaming firepit, and strong winds all within the limits of the area)?

2a. Is there gravity within the controlled matter?

2b. Does the creator have control over the gravity?

2c. Can the creator change the direction of gravity so that it is different within different 5-ft squares?

3. Can he change the terrain whenever he wishes (i.e., create a small hill underneath himself during combat to give himself higher ground, or create a pit under an enemy to cause him to fall...perhaps making the pit have stone spikes for extra affect, or dismiss air within an area to suffocate enemies)?

I just ran a session that takes place in Limbo; first time using the plane. And these were questions that came up during the first combat. My players have a (frustrating) habit of trying to figure out how they can take advantage and "beat the system" at every turn. I should have seen this coming and verified these things long ago.

afroakuma

2015-06-03, 07:18 PM

Isn't there a set distance between the Spire and the edge of the Hinterlands? How can infinite divine realms be fit into that area? Or do some deities in the Outlands make their realms in the Hinterlands?

As noted above, it's a property of the Outer Planes that gross distances don't really matter. Let's assume for the sake of argument that the distance between the Spire and the Hinterlands is 5 miles in every direction. Mathematically speaking, we should expect the habitable area of the Outlands to be, at maximum, 78.54 square miles. But on the books we have... what's this? 150 square miles of documented locations! And what's that place on the horizon that doesn't look like anything on record...?

The Outer Planes are realms of belief; they don't conform to any need for fixed areas to exist. While certain spatial relationships are more stable than others, it's far more likely that on the Outer Planes the distance between Strangeland and Otherplace is literally "two days' travel" than that it is any fixed distance in miles or kilometres or linear tessipates or foot-cubits. While there is a fixed distance between the gate-towns and the Spire or the gate-towns and the Hinterlands, all that area in between is whatever it needs to be for whoever is traveling.

How much control does a person have when controlling matter on Limbo?

Very little, and not for long. Control is little more than selecting and mixing element-dominant traits - you can create a lump of earth surrounded by air, or a ball of fire encased in earth, or possibly even a little island rock in a larger pool of water with a small dome of air above. Fine control and the capacity to "mix" elements are beyond most minds; only the very rare minds known as anarchs have the capacity to effect real control over shapes and structures, and there's no test to be one - you either are (DM's discretion) or you are not.

1. Can he shape the terrain however he wishes (i.e., create a field of earth with a 10-ft mound, a 10-ft pit, a raging river, a 5-ft flaming firepit, and strong winds all within the limits of the area)?

No.

2a. Is there gravity within the controlled matter?

Limbo's normal gravity rules apply. The individual controlling matter in a given area has no influence on the subjective gravity of others.

3. Can he change the terrain whenever he wishes (i.e., create a small hill underneath himself during combat to give himself higher ground, or create a pit under an enemy to cause him to fall...perhaps making the pit have stone spikes for extra affect, or dismiss air within an area to suffocate enemies)?

A non-anarch cannot effect such changes. X-dominant or X-and-Y dominant with very primitive shapes are the extent of control.

I just ran a session that takes place in Limbo; first time using the plane. And these were questions that came up during the first combat. My players have a (frustrating) habit of trying to figure out how they can take advantage and "beat the system" at every turn. I should have seen this coming and verified these things long ago.

Yeah, don't run combat in Limbo. The whole thing where they fly 10-40 feet in a random direction every round through terrain they can barely see through at the best of times which all shifts randomly in 25-foot radius bubbles every 1-10 minutes from open air to solid rock to pure flame that deals 3-30 damage to those exposed and sets them on fire... even with attune form or avoid planar effects you can still get encased in rock and unable to usefully accomplish anything. The rules for Limbo were decidedly slapdash, more's the pity.

In case they attempt it, they also can't attempt to annihilate structures in Limbo, as they can only control the chaos matter, not anything built with actual materials.

Oryan77

2015-06-03, 09:28 PM

only the very rare minds known as anarchs have the capacity to effect real control over shapes and structures.

Thanks for the replies! So with that in mind, what if the person controlling the area was an Anarch (they hired an Anarch as a guide). How would you answer those questions in terms of the controller being an Anarch with minimum Anarch abilities (Wisdom around 20-22)?

I'm just trying to get a feel for what kind of control a person would have in Limbo depending on how good he was at controlling. :smallredface:

afroakuma

2015-06-03, 10:42 PM

Thanks for the replies! So with that in mind, what if the person controlling the area was an Anarch (they hired an Anarch as a guide). How would you answer those questions in terms of the controller being an Anarch with minimum Anarch abilities (Wisdom around 20-22)?

I'm just trying to get a feel for what kind of control a person would have in Limbo depending on how good he was at controlling. :smallredface:

Anarchs are capable of creating structures and even basic vegetation. The spell perinarch, from the Planar Handbook, gives some examples of introductory complex control, but points out that whatever is accomplished would offer a Reflex save to avoid. Anarchs cannot:

• Create void pockets without air. Something must occupy that space.
• Impose gravity upon others.
• Create exotic elements (no osmium, no poison).
• Create sentient life.
• Control specific conditions of shaped area (cannot make it freezing cold, cannot control weather)

Anarchs can:

• Create walls of earth, water or fire (Reflex to avoid)
• Create pit traps or pits filled with flame (Reflex negates, although subjective gravity)
• Raise or lower terrain

So I would recommend:

• Adding a major feature (wall, pit, difficult terrain) is a standard action.
• Adjusting terrain for a tactical advantage should be adjudicated with a small ad-hoc circumstance bonus or penalty.

Odds are that fighting in an anarch's region of control is far less terrible than fighting in raw Limbo, so overall it's a mercy. Remember that any protections against Limbo (attune form, etc) also apply against some forms of anarch-shaped trolling (fire in particular, but anything that emulates elemental dominance applies).

Xuldarinar

2015-06-04, 07:08 AM

Given the existence of an infinite number of deities, at least for all intents and purposes, is there anything that absolutely no deity would support, let alone approve of?

Tzardok

2015-06-04, 07:17 AM

Most, if not all deities are against ur-priests (who steal divine magic from the gods) and binders (who communicate with the beings called vestiges and get magic from binding those into their soul and body). Besides that I can imagine that the Athar (who believe that deities are frauds and work to expose them) are in most deities bad books.

Eldan

2015-06-04, 07:31 AM

ksbsnowowl

2015-06-04, 09:34 AM

Wasn't there a quote in one of teh books (Outlands, probably), that said that the distance between any two landmarks on the Outlands is always something like 3d6 days?

Like, travel from A to B? 3d6 days. Travel from B to C: 3d6 days. Travel from C to D, also 3d6 days. Directly from A to D? Also 3d6 days. In straight lines.

3.0 MotP, on the Outlands, states that the ring or portal cities is roughly 1,000 miles from the Spire. But outside that range is mutable. Outside that ring of cities, you are always within 4d8 x 10 miles from at least one portal city. It even gives an example of walking 2,000 miles straight out from the Spire, and still being a maximum of 320 miles from a portal city.

afroakuma

2015-06-04, 02:54 PM

Given the existence of an infinite number of deities, at least for all intents and purposes, is there anything that absolutely no deity would support, let alone approve of?

The Macarena.

Extra Anchovies

2015-06-04, 07:35 PM

enderlord99

2015-06-04, 10:12 PM

Forrestfire

2015-06-04, 11:16 PM

Isn't it also significantly harder to travel through the phlogiston via teleport than it is through spelljamming helm?

enderlord99

2015-06-04, 11:59 PM

Isn't it also significantly harder to travel through the phlogiston via teleport than it is through spelljamming helm?

Yes. It's downright impossible; my response referred exclusively to the double-planeshift version.

Brookshw

2015-06-05, 10:12 AM

afroakuma

2015-06-05, 10:18 AM

Why are Spelljammers used? What stops characters with sufficient resources from just using Greater Teleport and/or Greater Plane Shift (from your starting point, to any other plane, then back to the starting plane but at the intended destination) to move between planets?

This has been addressed in prior threads, but the short version is: fewer high-level casters available to act as glorified space ferries than there are spelljammers to do so, cargo, large numbers of passengers, the option of intersphere travel, etc.

Also you reeeeally don't want to find out about anti-teleportation protections in space the hard way. :smalltongue:

Extra Anchovies

2015-06-05, 11:45 AM

This has been addressed in prior threads, but the short version is: fewer high-level casters available to act as glorified space ferries than there are spelljammers to do so, cargo, large numbers of passengers, the option of intersphere travel, etc.

Also you reeeeally don't want to find out about anti-teleportation protections in space the hard way. :smalltongue:

Thanks (both to you and for everyone else who answered). Sorry for asking an old question, I'll search the past threads next time.

Urpriest

2015-06-05, 12:24 PM

So there are various implied connections between D&D settings and Earth. Is it implied that various Pantheons with real-world analogues (Finnish/Egyptian/Greek/etc.) got their start on Earth, or did they likely have their own worlds on the prime distinct from our own?

afroakuma

2015-06-05, 01:45 PM

Ah that new thread smell!

Question for you 'Fro, celestial jails. We have Elysium and its Prisoner, there appears to be some jail on Celestia that gets used for souls and possibly other. What's the general outlook in your perspective on the Celestial predisposition on imprisoning people and/or souls. Any additional Canon you recall offhand?

Celestials are willing to imprison transgressors in the hope of rehabilitation, although there are many who believe in paying evil unto evil (as it were). Souls are a much sketchier topic; generally speaking, celestials are extremely opposed to the imprisonment of the soul. Other canon... none offhand, no.

So there are various implied connections between D&D settings and Earth. Is it implied that various Pantheons with real-world analogues (Finnish/Egyptian/Greek/etc.) got their start on Earth, or did they likely have their own worlds on the prime distinct from our own?

We know that the Pharaonic pantheon were worshiped on Earth at some point, but given their nature and power and the nature and lack of power of the world of Earth, it's likely that each of the major pantheons had their own home sphere and world. I've done some tentative sketch-ups of those worlds, but not much.

enderlord99

2015-06-05, 10:45 PM

We know that the Pharaonic pantheon were worshiped on Earth at some point, but given their nature and power and the nature and lack of power of the world of Earth, it's likely that each of the major pantheons had their own home sphere and world. I've done some tentative sketch-ups of those worlds, but not much.

Earth? I thought the term was "The Prime world of Terra within the sphere of Solspace."

...Yeah, I guess "Earth" is less of a mouthful.

Bad Wolf

2015-06-05, 11:16 PM

Is there anything that would happen if a cleric or a paladin became more powerful then their patron deity?

Werephilosopher

2015-06-06, 12:21 AM

Earth? I thought the term was "The Prime world of Terra within the sphere of Solspace."

...Yeah, I guess "Earth" is less of a mouthful.

Do people who know of Earth (like Elminster) refer to it as such? Seems it could be easy to confuse it with the plane.

For that matter, how many people know of Earth, besides those who live on it? On Toril for instance, could an apprentice wizard learn of it in a "compendium of worlds"-type book at the wizard school library? Would such knowledge be held by higher-level and higher-status people, like archmages? Or would it be known by only a small few - Elminster and Mystra, obviously, perhaps one or two others?

enderlord99

2015-06-06, 01:21 AM

Do people who know of Earth (like Elminster) refer to it as such?

No, they refer to it as Terra. Also, how do you know Elminster knows about it; sure, he knows a lot, but Solspace isn't even in the same quadrant of Arcane Space that the Radiant Triangle is!

Or at least, Solspace wasn't on that map. Or, at the very least, I couldn't find it there...

Evolved Shrimp

2015-06-06, 02:00 AM

Also, how do you know Elminster knows about it

There are several Dragon articles describing meetings between Elminster and other high-level wizards (Khelben? …?) at the home of the Dragon writer, so Elminster appears not only to know about Terra/Earth but to have visited here.

Clistenes

2015-06-06, 02:07 AM

Is there anything that would happen if a cleric or a paladin became more powerful then their patron deity?

The deity would turn the worshipper into a proxy long before that, which would give it the power to control its advancement.

Tzardok

2015-06-06, 04:59 AM

There are several Dragon articles describing meetings between Elminster and other high-level wizards (Khelben? …?) at the home of the Dragon writer, so Elminster appears not only to know about Terra/Earth but to have visited here.

The articles (titled "The Wizards Three") where written by Ed Greenwood, the original writer of the Forgotten Realms, and the visiting wizards where Elminster, Mordenkainen and some powerful Dragonlance wizard, who was later replaced by his apprentice. I hope that helped.

afroakuma

2015-06-06, 07:31 AM

Is there anything that would happen if a cleric or a paladin became more powerful then their patron deity?

And how do you propose this occur without said worshiper becoming a god and thus no longer deriving power from the worship of a deity?

Do people who know of Earth (like Elminster) refer to it as such? Seems it could be easy to confuse it with the plane.

Primes, even well-traveled Prime wizards, refer to the Elemental Plane by its full name. Only planars and natives call that plane "Earth." People who know of the world of Earth know it by that name and may have other names for it as well.

For that matter, how many people know of Earth, besides those who live on it?

Very very few.

On Toril for instance, could an apprentice wizard learn of it in a "compendium of worlds"-type book at the wizard school library?

Not likely. Between the flood of Invaders From Space, the Shou Lung spelljammer fleet, non-infrequent contact with the other worlds of the Radiant Triangle and the fact that Toril has many major space trade ports, spelljammer-based world-to-world contact is much more documented than travels to another world's alternate Prime equivalent. Any such compendium would document worlds like Krynn and Oerth, but Earth is not in the cards.

Would such knowledge be held by higher-level and higher-status people, like archmages? Or would it be known by only a small few - Elminster and Mystra, obviously, perhaps one or two others?

Earth's not of interest to many people, being, as I said, a world on an alternate Prime without native magic. On Toril, the only people likely to know about Earth are those who have had it mentioned to them by Elminster and some rare few who might have journeyed there themeselves at some point or communicated on the subject of alternate Primes with Mordenkainen or Dalamar. So, next to nobody.

The reason you're not finding Solspace on the map is because it doesn't exist; Earth is an alternate Prime with a different cosmology.

enderlord99

2015-06-06, 08:05 AM

The reason you're not finding Solspace on the map is because it doesn't exist; Earth is an alternate Prime with a different cosmology.

Well, that's surprisingly convenient: I thought I would need to retcon that for the stories I'm working on involving the Plane of Shadow.

afroakuma

2015-06-07, 08:39 AM

Nope, all good. You're covered.

Naanomi

2015-06-07, 08:55 AM

Is Earth the source of the original Mulhulorandi immigrants, or was that just another world where the Egyptian pantheon was also big? If it was the former, than Earth may get a mention in the history books.

If Earth is an alternate Prime, how were these Wizards getting thet before the recent expansion of the Plane of Shadows? What other paths to Alternate Cosmologies exist besides the Deep Shadow?

Evolved Shrimp

2015-06-07, 12:21 PM

how were these Wizards getting [there] […]?

IIRC, they are described as materializing out of thin air, so I’d assume Greater Plane Shift. (Or some variant thereof – no forked metal rods being held are mentioned, if memory serves.)

afroakuma

2015-06-07, 12:53 PM

Is Earth the source of the original Mulhulorandi immigrants, or was that just another world where the Egyptian pantheon was also big? If it was the former, than Earth may get a mention in the history books.

Earth is the source of the original slaves who became the Mulan people, the ancestors of Unther and Mulhorand. However, the Imaskari likely didn't record the name of the world they came from, if they even knew it existed, and the Mulan people wouldn't have known at that level of their cultural existence that they were brought from an alternate Prime or what its name was, nor have they demonstrated a serious interest in their travelly past. Given that a span of nearly 500 years exists between when the portals were opened and when the Imaskari recorded their arcane lore, chances are pretty good that mentions of Earth are nonexistent.

If Earth is an alternate Prime, how were these Wizards getting thet before the recent expansion of the Plane of Shadows?

Those travels occurred before the cosmological shift, and there are a lot of different and bizarre magical interactions and constructs that can conceivably reach alternate Primes. We just don't have them enumerated.

Fable Wright

2015-06-07, 05:50 PM

How did Doresain wind up going from relatively minor Demon Lord to a minor deity?

Werephilosopher

2015-06-07, 11:11 PM

How did Doresain wind up going from relatively minor Demon Lord to a minor deity?

I just happened across this in the very first planar questions thread, so I guess I'll share it.

Doresain wasn't always pathetically weak (actualy, he isn't now, either). Long ago, Yeenoghu went and kicked his teeth in; Doresain knelt to the Prince of Gnolls and Stupid Stupid Violence. The King of Ghouls eventually escaped and began building power on the Negative Energy Plane; when some stupid stupid people let him into the Material Plane, he established an undead kingdom using his superghouls and the fact that he wields a mace of disruption because Doresain don't care.

Unfortunately, Doresain came down with a case of that strange disease that tends to plague evil beings doing evil things, and a few rather unfortunately terminal seconds later found himself back in the Abyss where his old friend Captain Fuzzybritches was waiting. Doresain got himself good and stunted for his troubles; however, despite all the crap that befell him, his little vacation on the Material Plane gave him some leverage he'd never had before. Doresain started acquiring power. Between 3.0 and 3.5, Doresain acquired godhood. Not a lot, Just enough.

Doresain's quite powerful now (i.e. don't think he's still a piddly CR 10) but doesn't want to take on Yeenoghu and lose. He'll bide his time until he's sure he can safely break out from under the heel of the Prince of Gnolls for good.

afroakuma

2015-06-08, 12:44 PM

I really need to come up with some way of wikifying all these answers or otherwise making it more easily accessible.

Tzardok

2015-06-08, 12:50 PM

Afro, in thread number 5 you said that guardinals promote over time. In the thread "Do Celestials get promoted" you said they (and curiously also eladrin) don't get promoted. Now which is true? And if yes, do their promotions follow some kind of pattern or hierarchy?

Edit: I just re-read a post you did in the very first planar questions thread and there you said that any being made from soulstuff (meaning exemplars) is recogizable by being able to take more (or less) powerful forms by becoming "more" of it's alignment. Now I am really confused. Please clarify.

Eldan

2015-06-08, 03:32 PM

http://lopq.wikia.com/wiki/Library_of_Odd_and_Planar_Questions_Wikia

Here. Did the first page of this thread, I'll do more later if I have more time and am bored.

afroakuma

2015-06-08, 09:33 PM

Afro, in thread number 5 you said that guardinals promote over time. In the thread "Do Celestials get promoted" you said they (and curiously also eladrin) don't get promoted. Now which is true?

No book makes any statement on the matter except the exceedingly terrible Warriors of Heaven. The answer from Glyphstone's thread was from that and from the lack of any other answer available in a book to note things one way or another. Neither eladrins nor guardinals get much fleshing out anywhere, sadly.

Within the context of this thread, Warriors of Heaven is specifically not an acceptable source and its information is not applicable. That's my final word on the subject.

enderlord99

2015-06-08, 11:42 PM

I have a theory that Athas isn't metaphorically a dying world, but instead literally. Destination: Minethys. Whole sphere even go bye-bye soon; Then, Prime better off.

Me talk funny.

Rogthnor

2015-06-09, 03:48 AM

Brookshw

2015-06-09, 04:25 AM

; Then, Prime better off.

Is this like a dance off then?

Eldan

2015-06-09, 06:01 AM

Page 2 of this thread is on the Wiki.

Brookshw

2015-06-09, 06:50 AM

Page 2 of this thread is on the Wiki.

If I can find time I'd love to help with this. Not sure how you want to sort the workload. Shall I start with thread 2?

Eldan

2015-06-09, 07:04 AM

If I can find time I'd love to help with this. Not sure how you want to sort the workload. Shall I start with thread 2?

Sure, that would be nice. I thought about starting thread 1, since I don't have much to do this afternoon.

It's about time we had another useful Planescape wiki, really. Mimir is a pain to negotiate sometimes, Planewalker, as far as I know, is still down (and was a pain to navigate before), I can't even find Portalseeker anymore...

Brookshw

2015-06-09, 07:53 AM

Sure, that would be nice. I thought about starting thread 1, since I don't have much to do this afternoon.

It's about time we had another useful Planescape wiki, really. Mimir is a pain to negotiate sometimes, Planewalker, as far as I know, is still down (and was a pain to navigate before), I can't even find Portalseeker anymore...

Okay, I'll see what I can do time permitting.

Hey 'Fro, do we have your blessing for this endeavour? This is your brain child after all.

ksbsnowowl

2015-06-09, 08:21 AM

afroakuma

2015-06-09, 09:54 AM

My group has been having a lot of arguments on what exactly defines something as Lawful or Chaotic behaivor recently, owing in large part to how overlapping, and often contradictory the official material is on the subject, and I was wondering what your particular take on it was? I figured this would be the right place to ask since the law/chaos good/evil divide is so central to the outer planes.

One of the important things to understand about Law and Chaos is that their perspectives are strongly rooted in how they want their world to be, moreso than what they want themselves and others to do. Law likes constraints, rules, predictability and order; Chaos likes the unexpected, the novel, the emergent and the unique. This is important because it means that rather than just your own choice of actions, Law and Chaos are very much about what you expect the world to do in reaction. A lawful evil character, for instance, may cheat at cards, but would be extremely offended to discover that his cheating has failed because someone else was also cheating. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=773E6GPll3A) Why? Because nobody was supposed to be cheating. Hypocritical? Obviously. But it speaks to the mindset of a lawful character - they expect, and very nearly demand, that the world work in a predictable, rational way. Lawful good believes that doing so is best for everyone, lawful neutral believes that it's the only rational way for the world to be, and lawful evil believes that if everyone plays by the rules then you can make your bones by them, either by enforcement and lawyering or by compliance and strategic undermining. Lawful characters can lie, steal, cheat, deceive, defy... they just have very very clear ideas about what the outcome of those actions will be, as well as to what extent they either need or deserve to "break the rules."

Chaos desires freedom. Chaos thinks the world should mind its own business. If I say a purple duck is going to fall out of the sky and smack you in the head for touching a doorknob, a lawful character might ask for (or wait for) proof. A chaotic character will grab the doorknob and be offended at getting hit by a duck, because come on. Chaotic good thinks people should be free to improve themselves and not constrained by laws that would force them to live a certain way, that the world gets better when people have a choice. Chaotic neutral is totally individualistic, without any inherent need to improve the lot of others. Chaotic evil is nearly solipsistic in its total focus on the self.

Okay, I'll see what I can do time permitting.

Hey 'Fro, do we have your blessing for this endeavour? This is your brain child after all.

You do indeed. I do wonder, though, if the format of keeping the questions in is helpful. I'd like thoughts on that. I'd be more than happy, when a particular page is more complete, to go through and attempt to compile it into a stable article. Also I do recommend a page be set aside and links put in to notate "afro-canon," given how frequently it might come up.

Brookshw

2015-06-09, 10:10 AM

You do indeed. I do wonder, though, if the format of keeping the questions in is helpful. I'd like thoughts on that. I'd be more than happy, when a particular page is more complete, to go through and attempt to compile it into a stable article. Also I do recommend a page be set aside and links put in to notate "afro-canon," given how frequently it might come up.

Hmmm. Good question. Eldan should proabably field the format as I'm not especially familiar with this sort of thing. I assume we could do the Topic itself, comments on it, questions at the end, but that might get sort of tricky. We should probably take this to PMs to sort out the details. Fair point on an Afro-canon tag or some such.

Eldan

2015-06-09, 03:29 PM

I guess we can do that later. For now, I'm just trying to move tons and tons of material over, a lot of which has very screwed up formatting when copy-pasting. Also, category pages and indices.

If I ever get done with that, I can write a few introductory lines to each subject. E.g. "The Blood War is the multiverse's largest war, between the lawful Baatezu, or Devils, and the chaotic Tanar'ri, or Demons, which has been fought across all the lower planes for millennia."

afroakuma

2015-06-09, 09:40 PM

WalkingTheShade

2015-06-10, 03:27 PM

Yay for new thread!

First of all, good luck with the wiki thing. I'd help, if only I had more free time.

Second, more questions:

I have a chaotic neutral planar ice genasi revolutionnary league fighter/cleric NPC (pfew, that's a mouthful). I'm looking for a fitting patron power with the cold domain. I've found Thelchur and Vatun. Any other suggestions?

What's your opinion of Zarus? Without going into the whole Burning Hate conspiracy thing, what are his relations to other non-racial deities like? What about the seemingly overlaping concerns with Wastri?

EDIT: regarding the list of planar information brokers, I stumbled upon the Master of Bones, host of the Bones of the Night, the other day.

enderlord99

2015-06-10, 05:02 PM

I like to think that "Chole Dragons" (the planar dragon associated with the Abyss) are all part secretly Draeden. How likely is this, on a scale of -10 to +10, where -10 is "that's the dumbest idea I've ever heard," 0 is "it's not stupid, but it's still 100% false," +1 is "it might sort of be an extremely remote possibility, I guess. The chance is negligible, though" and +10 is "they absolutely are. It's confirmed as canon."

I expect less than 3, but I really have no idea.

DCDC420

2015-06-10, 05:14 PM

When exactly did the genies first show up? I can't find anything that really discusses their history in-depth, and as far as I can tell they've just always been there on the Inner Planes.

Did they take part in the War of Law and Chaos? If it helps, I'm most interested in the Marids specifically.

Brookshw

2015-06-10, 07:35 PM

What inspired these threads aside from boredom?

As to the Genie question if you could recommend any sources for their actions at the beginning of the law/chaos war I'm looking for more reading material :smallbiggrin:

Fable Wright

2015-06-10, 08:52 PM

What could cause a Demon to turn Neutral Evil? Planescape: Torment establishes that demons can go all the way up to Lawful Neutral without becoming something different, and that torture by Baatezu can bring about a leaning towards law, but I'm curious as to what other kinds of circumstances might bring Demons away from the Chaotic Evil alignment.

afroakuma

2015-06-11, 03:41 PM

I have a chaotic neutral planar ice genasi revolutionnary league fighter/cleric NPC (pfew, that's a mouthful). I'm looking for a fitting patron power with the cold domain. I've found Thelchur and Vatun. Any other suggestions?

The Cold domain isn't assigned to deities outside of Complete Divine and Frostburn, the latter of which I know you've looked at. If your DM is open to some leeway on it, you might also consider the Norse god Uller, who should have the Cold domain, given that he's the god of winter. Thrym, the god of the frost giants, might be an option. On the other side of the moral spectrum, you could ask your DM to allow you to puzzle out Kura Okami of the Japanese pantheon, a deity of rain and snow.

What's your opinion of Zarus?

The word "butts" comes to mind.

what are his relations to other non-racial deities like?

See terrible book Races of Destiny terrible book. I was right the first time.

What about the seemingly overlaping concerns with Wastri?

Wastri is a weak, delusional power who upholds anti-human bigotry as one of the core elements of his portfolio, but who doesn't understand what "humans" are, seizing actual humans and warping them into a mildly froggy state. He's stunted, hideous and endorses the enslavement of nonhuman races - but only those who are also demonstrably weak, despised, and generally considered unappealing. Unlike Wastri, who wants to spread a message of hate for nonhumans and power for humans, Zarus wants to conquer. He seeks perfection and the apex of the human existence.

I like to think that "Chole Dragons" (the planar dragon associated with the Abyss) are all part secretly Draeden. How likely is this, on a scale of -10 to +10, where -10 is "that's the dumbest idea I've ever heard," 0 is "it's not stupid, but it's still 100% false," +1 is "it might sort of be an extremely remote possibility, I guess. The chance is negligible, though" and +10 is "they absolutely are. It's confirmed as canon."

I'll give you a -2.

When exactly did the genies first show up?

We do not know. The only book that dwells on them doesn't delve into history.

Did they take part in the War of Law and Chaos? If it helps, I'm most interested in the Marids specifically.

I would expect they were involved well before the end.

DCDC420

2015-06-12, 01:52 AM

Thank you for the answer, though I do have another question.

Did someone go overboard when writing the Oeridian god Cyndor (www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Cyndor)? He is a lesser power of time who has no three divine realms, one of which was the city of Rempha (previously established to be under the control of a solar and a rogue modron), and one of which is in the Demiplane of Time (also known as the impossible-to-build-in Temporal Prime). He also happens to direct Oerth's branch of the Guardians from Chronomancer, which is a little much.

How is all of this possible for a relatively obscure lesser deity? I am considering taking him out of the picture for a game that involves time manipulation and time travel, by saying that his focus on predestination caused him to hubristically aim for preincarnate souls and hit the Ban of the Unborn just as Desayeus did...

EDIT:

I have another question, this one also delving back into the ancient past.

Regardless of where their empire was or where they currently reside, did the species of the Wind Dukes of Aaqa, also known as the vaati, originate from the Prime or from the Inner Planes?

WalkingTheShade

2015-06-12, 04:52 AM

Thanks for your answers.

I have a few questions regarding the Rabble of Devilkin.

Of them, who is the most likely strike a bargain to help (overtly or not) planewalkers cross the realm of Tiamat, from Avernus to Dis, in the context of the Fires of Dis adventure?
Who is the most likely to do this to gain something from the adventurers?
Who is the most likely to do this to piss off Tiamat?
Who is the most likely to do this to gain something from Dispater, being actually controlled/manipulated by him?
Who is the most likely to do this for the lulz? (I'd say Cahor.)

On subject of Cahor, using the enderlord99 Scale of Conjecture Compatibility with Canon (eSCCC), what's the believability of Cahor being NE or CE?

Of the Rabble, who is the most likely to be a double agent, working for Asmodeus, and meant to spy on the others or undermine their plans? (I'd say Cahor again, don't know why, I'm fond of the guy.)

Of the Rabble, who are the ones with the biggest potential for a come-back tour in Hell?

afroakuma

2015-06-12, 02:27 PM

What inspired these threads aside from boredom?

I no longer know. :smalltongue:

As to the Genie question if you could recommend any sources for their actions at the beginning of the law/chaos war I'm looking for more reading material :smallbiggrin:

I'm starting to feel like I might have to go invent genie canon for people.

What could cause a Demon to turn Neutral Evil?

Anything that might pull them away from chaos - increased devotion to evil for its own sake, for instance.

Did someone go overboard when writing the Oeridian god Cyndor (www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Cyndor)?

Yes. Stupid Polyhedron. If I have to consult a Polyhedron issue for an answer, you know we're in the red zone.

He is a lesser power of time who has no three divine realms

He really doesn't. The article itself makes no mention of Rempha, whose own entry in the canon doesn't mention Cyndor at all, because he has not a thing to do with it. Given Cyndor's role with relation to time and how dangerous any form of interference on Temporal Prime can be, I find it unlikely that an author who had actually read Chronomancer properly would have given him a berth of any kind there, let alone suggested it was his realm - Temporal Prime is not a plane, after all. That leaves one, The Path of Law on Mechanus.

How is all of this possible for a relatively obscure lesser deity? I am considering taking him out of the picture for a game that involves time manipulation and time travel, by saying that his focus on predestination caused him to hubristically aim for preincarnate souls and hit the Ban of the Unborn just as Desayeus did...

That doesn't sound like Cyndor. Remember, though, time manipulation is a dangerous, dangerous thing. Time travel not as much so provided you're cautious and not out to, you know, manipulate time.

Regardless of where their empire was or where they currently reside, did the species of the Wind Dukes of Aaqa, also known as the vaati, originate from the Prime or from the Inner Planes?

Inner Planes. They retreated to the Vale of Aaqa at the end of the war.

I have a few questions regarding the Rabble of Devilkin.

Hm, that's a new topic. Fun.

Of them, who is the most likely strike a bargain to help (overtly or not) planewalkers cross the realm of Tiamat, from Avernus to Dis, in the context of the Fires of Dis adventure?

Well, the least likely would be Armaros; Azazel would probably be most likely, followed by Cahor. Dagon would claim willingness to help, but invariably betray intruders for his own ends. Rumjal would be the best in terms of access, but is not likely to cooperate.

Who is the most likely to do this to gain something from the adventurers?

Dagon, but of course see above. Caim might, if they had valuable enough info to trade and he could trust them.

Who is the most likely to do this to piss off Tiamat?

Azazel.

Who is the most likely to do this to gain something from Dispater, being actually controlled/manipulated by him?

Dispater is most likely to manipulate Dagon in this respect; most of the others have nothing he could offer them. Herodias might be persuaded.

Who is the most likely to do this for the lulz? (I'd say Cahor.)

Azazel or Cahor.

On subject of Cahor, using the enderlord99 Scale of Conjecture Compatibility with Canon (eSCCC), what's the believability of Cahor being NE or CE?

-8.

Of the Rabble, who is the most likely to be a double agent, working for Asmodeus, and meant to spy on the others or undermine their plans? (I'd say Cahor again, don't know why, I'm fond of the guy.)

Kochbiel or Rumjal.

Of the Rabble, who are the ones with the biggest potential for a come-back tour in Hell?

Kochbiel and Armaros are the most valuable potential assets to the archdukes; Rumjal is a friend of Asmodeus and has kept himself firmly aligned with the interests of the Lord Below. Duskur, if she were willing to accept the suit of an archduke to become consort, would reenter the hierarchy with ease. Amon would likely already have a position once more if he had not served under Geryon.

Adslahnit

2015-06-12, 02:34 PM

afroakuma

2015-06-12, 04:28 PM

1. What is known of the Field of Pesh, the site of the decisive battle between the vaati and the obyriths?

I cannot seem to find much information on it, besides that it is located in Oerth in the shadow of White Plume Mountain.

That's basically it.

Is it a popular tourist destination for aficionados of planar history?

I would doubt it, being that it's on the Prime.

2. Are there infinite mortals in the Prime?

One would expect so.

If so, does each of the Outer Planes have infinite petitioners in it, including Gehenna and its finite-space volcanoes?

Gehenna's volcanoes are only relatively finite. I addressed this very recently. No Inner, Outer or Transitive Plane will ever "fill up" or otherwise overcrowd. A demiplane might. As far as we know, there are in fact infinite petitioners on the Outer Planes.

3. Could the destruction or consumption of an evil soul (particularly that of an evil outsider) be said to be a non-evil act from a grand-scale perspective of the multiverse? It would rid the Lower Planes of a new petitioner and/or a new influx of evil energies, thereby preventing the cosmic force of evil from growing.

As redemption is possible, albeit unlikely, soul destruction is an evil act. Remember too that the Outer Planes have their balances; the Unity of Rings, the Rule of Three; judging against evil souls might in and of itself be a greater evil in the long run for the damage that can be wrought.

4. Is the Japanese pantheon (specifically, the gods Izanagi and Izanami) given any lore from a D&D perspective in any sources other than Legends & Lore and On Hallowed Ground?

The original Deities & Demigods. :smalltongue: The Japanese pantheon was considered a reclusive pantheon and not given much focus even at the best of times.

5. Is there anything known on the ascended factol of the Believers of the Source, Curran, mentioned in the Factol's Manifesto, other than that she is a power of healing and protection?

Nope.

6. Is there anything known about the ascended factols of the Transcendent Order, also mentiond in the Factol's Manifesto, even a name or two?

That would be the source for it, if it existed to be found.

7. I cannot seem to find this particular detail mentioned in the previous questions and answers on Baalphegor: Is Mephistopheles aware that Asmodeus tolerates him only because of Baalphegor's power and leverage, or is Mephistopheles in the dark with regards to his own consort?

He's got notions of her power, but he's also devoted to the idea that he can someday overwhelm Asmodeus under his own strength.

8. If someone (say, a group of very dedicated baatezu) managed to trick several nations' worth of mortals into worshiping a minor tanar'ri lord as a benevolent, Lawful Good deity, could the power of mortal belief effectively "poison" that tanar'ri lord with all the energies of Law and Good flowing back and forth?

Who knows? A lawful good power in that sphere might step in, or their belief might create a separate being... but it would be fun to find out. :smallcool:

9. Can exemplars become true gods, as opposed to just exemplar lords?

I'm not sure I'm clear on the question. Are you asking if an exemplar can become a god without previously having been an exemplar lord?

Tzardok

2015-06-12, 04:33 PM

9. Can exemplars become true gods, as opposed to just exemplar lords?

IIRC, Gargauth in the Faerûnian pantheon is an ascended baatezu. He calls himself in his hybris "The Tenth of the Nine" and says that he was too vile even for Asmodeus and was kicked out of Hell for that.

DCDC420

2015-06-12, 07:18 PM

According to Skip Williams in Dragon Magazine...

The Wind Dukes of Aaqa, or Vaati, as they call themselves, have a presence in both products. They are a proud and noble race of immortals, though their struggles against Chaos have weakened them. The are masters of the element of air. They are androgynous and seldom find need for clothes. A prudish mortal brazen enough to chide them for their lack of attire is likely to get a lecture on the myriad ways clothing creates chaos.

Is it canon that wearing clothing is actually a chaotic act?

enderlord99

2015-06-12, 08:09 PM

Is it canon that wearing clothing is actually a chaotic act?

No; it just leads to chaotic results because fashion.

Adslahnit

2015-06-12, 11:21 PM

I'm not sure I'm clear on the question. Are you asking if an exemplar can become a god without previously having been an exemplar lord?

Perhaps I should clarify, then.

1. Can an exemplar (for this purpose, assume either a guardinal or a yugoloth) become a true deity while skipping being an exemplar lord?

2. Can an exemplar (again, assume either a guardinal or a yugoloth) progress from exemplar lord to true deity?

afroakuma

2015-06-13, 07:28 AM

Is it canon that wearing clothing is actually a chaotic act?

No.

1. Can an exemplar (for this purpose, assume either a guardinal or a yugoloth) become a true deity while skipping being an exemplar lord?

We don't know. In theory, any being that accrues enough worship can become a god... but we don't know that becoming an exemplar lord of some sort wouldn't be a transitional step in that process.

2. Can an exemplar (again, assume either a guardinal or a yugoloth) progress from exemplar lord to true deity?

Exemplar lords have done so in a few rare occasions... but guardinals and yugoloths are both particularly poor choices, as neither race has true lords to speak of.

Adslahnit

2015-06-14, 01:56 AM

I was under the impression that the Five Companions, the Oinoloth, and the General of Gehenna were all exemplar lords. Are they not?

Also, can an intact Netherese mythallar work in the Outer Planes or the Inner Planes, or would the lack of a Weave there prevent it from functioning?

One enclave with a mythallar exists in the Astral Plane (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Sel%C3%BBnarra), and another lingered in the Plane of Shadow for a long while (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Thultanthar), so why not a mythallar in the Outer Planes or the Inner Planes?

afroakuma

2015-06-14, 09:17 AM

I was under the impression that the Five Companions, the Oinoloth, and the General of Gehenna were all exemplar lords. Are they not?

The Five Companions are generally counted among their number, but are merely the most elite guardinals of their respective types - none is a unique being or the holder of transferable office. The Oinoloth is a holder of a unique office, but does not actually rule his race, nor is the office he occupies a daemonic one; rather, it is service to the Siege Malicious, a major artifact bound to Khin-Oin. Mydianchlarus is just an ultroloth wearing a template, and the race does not follow him.

The General of Gehenna, conversely, does rule and lead his people, insofar as anyone is aware; however, he is not a unique being nor is his essence bound to a plane in any exceptional fashion. The General is, as far as anyone knows, just another ultroloth.

Also, can an intact Netherese mythallar work in the Outer Planes or the Inner Planes, or would the lack of a Weave there prevent it from functioning?

A mythallar would not function on the Outer or Inner Planes or on most demiplanes. It is intricately bound to the functioning of the Weave. Artifacts with similar functions could of course be crafted that would be more compatible, but given the nature of the artifact in question I would surmise that it would likely not take kindly to being moved, and might be hazardous to attempt to create on a plane where the rules and even the very nature of magic are so very different.

One enclave with a mythallar exists in the Astral Plane (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Sel%C3%BBnarra), and another lingered in the Plane of Shadow for a long while (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Thultanthar), so why not a mythallar in the Outer Planes or the Inner Planes?

The Plane of Shadow is coexistent with the Material Plane, and thoroughly perfused with the Weave in the local area of Toril. The Astral Plane is coterminous to the Material Plane, and perfused with Weave links near points of coterminity. The Outer and Inner Planes are neither coexistent with nor coterminous to Toril.

Adslahnit

2015-06-14, 11:00 AM

Should the Book of Exalted Deeds' method of statting out Talisid and each of the Five Companions as unique entities be ignored, then?

Also, if if Primus is supposedly on the level of a greater deity while in Mechanus in AD&D 2e, then why is he distinctly killable in the listed climate/terrain of Mechanus (www.lomion.de/cmm/modron.php)? Very powerful, but still killable.

Finally, in-universe, what happened to Baphomet, Demogorgon, Kostchtchie, Juiblex, and Yeenoghu for them to lose their status as true powers in the transition from 2e to 3.X?

Eldan

2015-06-14, 11:18 AM

Deities, too, have been killed before, and by things considerably less powerful than the Last Word.

afroakuma

2015-06-14, 03:10 PM

Should the Book of Exalted Deeds' method of statting out Talisid and each of the Five Companions as unique entities be ignored, then?

Unique? Look at Talisid's "unique abilities." Resist Nature's Lure, Thousand Faces, Trackless Step, Woodland Stride and most damning of all, Wild Shape. He's nothing more than a celestial druid, with fewer spells to his name to boot. Manath has Powerful Charge. Bharrai's special power is the ability to blow less stuff up. Sathia and Valla have nothing but bigger numbers. Kharrash is probably the most interesting, being a sort of ranger/good-assassin.

None of them are beings of any exceptional nature beyond being simply the most elite of their given kind. Frankly, I'd expect their abilities to be far more exceptional than what the Book of Enfeebled Designs allocated, but then, it was a notably lazy effort all around, so really...

Other questions to be addressed shortly

Naanomi

2015-06-14, 06:47 PM

I've been thinking about the move of Menausus/Nemausus from Arcadia to Mechanus and have some questions about it:

1) Do we have any evidence of any other planar layer making a move like that in the past? Casualties of the Law/Chaos War?

2) Could a planar layer become 'too neutral' and 'migrate' to the Outlands?

3) Are there currently any other Planar layers at risk of 'moving'?

4) Even if none are at risk, which planar layers even have the potential? I'd say...
~Planes with one layer may lose portions of themselves, but cannot categorically lose the 'whole place'... Mechanus, Limbo, the Outlands
~In a few planes, the number of layers seems categorically important and thus while regions could move, whole layers cannot... Celestia, Baator, Byopia...
~The Abyss really wouldn't even notice jettisoning off a layer; though the place that received it would probably be heavily effected
~I'd also guess that the 'first layer' of any plane is too important structurally to the Outer Planes to really move, regardless of circumstances

Some places that seem to be 'at risk' potentially... Belierin doesn't seem particularly 'Good'... Mithardir/Pelion seems to be a pretty Neutral place overall, neither really Chaotic or Good to me...Muspelheim and Nidavellir are also comparatively 'ungood'... likewise parts of Carceri (Agatys in particular) can come across as pretty Lawful-Evil... Krangath can be a bit 'neutral' in the 'dead' sense... and Tintibulus and (even more so) Ocanthus come across as pretty Chaotic for their place in the cosmos.

enderlord99

2015-06-14, 08:10 PM

and Tintibulus and (even more so) Ocanthus come across as pretty Chaotic for their place in the cosmos.

They seem that way, but they aren't. Anyone feel like reposting the "Acheron doesn't hate you" speech?

Lord_Gareth

2015-06-14, 10:16 PM

Yes, Acheron looks a little Chaotic on the outside. You know what, from the outside Carceri looks a little lawful. But Acheron isn't chaotic. Acheron is battle without resolution, law without harmony, order without structure, misery without hope, death without glory, unity without individuality. Acheron is not a plane that hates you; indeed, it is Acheron's utter indifference to you that eventually kills you. Acheron is the grinding monotony of hopelessness, and it is the weary horror of cynicism so great that it consumes morality. The sergeant who grows weary of fighting corruption and embraces bribery goes to Acheron; the office drone who takes out his misery on others by providing them barriers to actual help goes to Acheron. It is the punishment for which there was no crime, the penalty without a violation, the monolithic crushing indifference of Law with no moral compass, of conflict without belief, of tyranny without vanity.

Acheron doesn't hate you.

It wants you to die anyway.

I hear the summons.

Tovec

2015-06-14, 10:34 PM

Not fast enough, move along.

Tzardok

2015-06-15, 07:10 AM

3) Are there currently any other Planar layers at risk of 'moving'?

I read somewhere that the Harmonium is gathering on the second layer of Arkadia to reclaim Menausus, ironically and inadvertently shifting that layer dangerously far away from Good.

enderlord99

2015-06-15, 07:13 AM

I read somewhere that the Harmonium is gathering on the second layer of Arkadia to reclaim Menausus, ironically and inadvertently shifting that layer dangerously far away from Good.

I wonder if the Harmonium will eventually cause Arcadia to stop existing entirely.

...That's probably about a -9, now that I think about it.

afroakuma

2015-06-15, 08:44 AM

Also, if if Primus is supposedly on the level of a greater deity while in Mechanus in AD&D 2e, then why is he distinctly killable in the listed climate/terrain of Mechanus (www.lomion.de/cmm/modron.php)? Very powerful, but still killable.

Cause it specifically says so: "Within Mechanus, Primus has the status of a greater power, except it is possible for Primus to die." He's not actually a deity, just a godlike being. He lacks salient divine abilities, for instance, and has no divine realm. That's putting aside that in older editions, gods were notably easy to deck, they just had a bad habit of being Just A Doombot or popping back up rather quickly.

Finally, in-universe, what happened to Baphomet, Demogorgon, Kostchtchie, Juiblex, and Yeenoghu for them to lose their status as true powers in the transition from 2e to 3.X?

They were never supposed to be gods to begin with. Monster Mythology upjumped them and On Hallowed Ground skated back and forth on it, likely because the authors were looking for gods to list and just nabbed whatever was lying around already. Kostchtchie in particular was a questionable choice given that the frost giants already have a patron god - Thrym. Anyway, in-universe, if you need a reason, blame it on the multiversal shift. Solves a lot of problems.

I've been thinking about the move of Menausus/Nemausus from Arcadia to Mechanus and have some questions about it:

1) Do we have any evidence of any other planar layer making a move like that in the past? Casualties of the Law/Chaos War?

Nope.

2) Could a planar layer become 'too neutral' and 'migrate' to the Outlands?

Ehhhhh... it's not impossible, theoretically, but it's about as close as you can get. I'd expect you simply can't nudge something toward true neutrality because unlike, say, the lawfulness of Arcadia, true neutrality is never there to begin with. Mechanus, Elysium, Hades and Limbo aren't any closer to true neutrality than Celestia or the Abyss - they are just even closer to the extremes they represent. Hence "Great Wheel," not "Great Square."

3) Are there currently any other Planar layers at risk of 'moving'?

No.

4) Even if none are at risk, which planar layers even have the potential?

Of them all, only a few layers of the Abyss might be possible to move at the moment, to Carceri or Pandemonium. No, I don't know which ones; I just know that the Abyss in particular would be a comparatively easy place for it.

~I'd also guess that the 'first layer' of any plane is too important structurally to the Outer Planes to really move, regardless of circumstances

The first layer is the most fundamental understanding of the plane and what it represents. As long as the plane itself has reason to be unique, the first layer will remain.

Some places that seem to be 'at risk' potentially... Belierin doesn't seem particularly 'Good'

That Belierin can stay where it is while containing such a fundamental evil is a testament to Elysium's incredible nature. Belierin does not seem "good" because there are forms of good that often go unaccounted for; it is a place of glowing mist, of sandbars and mangroves, of lighthouses that provide welcome and succor. It is the birthplace of good that is willing to resist good - a terrible burden, perhaps, but one that Belierin is suited for. There is only one documented divine realm on Belierin, though given its nature and that of the layer, one suspects there are many others, for it is the Refuge of Night, home of the goddess Nut.

Mithardir/Pelion seems to be a pretty Neutral place overall, neither really Chaotic or Good to me

Pelion is a place of grief, loss, sorrow and remembrance. It is peace and tranquility, but also possibility and danger. A silent frontier, waiting for its lost treasures to be restored, for songs to be sung and for inspiration to take hold. It is a land for nomads, those who would lead lives of good but want to fully eschew the trappings of civilization.

Etc.

Brookshw

2015-06-15, 09:53 AM

I wonder if the Harmonium will eventually cause Arcadia to stop existing entirely.

...That's probably about a -9, now that I think about it.

Iirc the Harmonium already recognized the consequences of their actions when they lost a layer and were working to correct themselves. How successful will they be in that is unknown but in so far as they're aware of the problem their actions are causing and actively working to fix their schtick I assume they won't spell Arcadia's doom.

Adslahnit

2015-06-15, 02:13 PM

1. Would you happen to know of any canonical spell, artifact, creature, location, or other effect that converts raw destruction, decay, or entropy (not necessarily negative energy) into pure creative energy? If so, what is it?

2. Aside from Pandorym, the Quicksilver Hourglass, and perhaps Tharizdun, what other canonical artifacts and creatures are designed/ingrained to destroy the multiverse and will probably succeed (or partially succeed) at doing so if unleashed?

Tzardok

2015-06-15, 02:24 PM

What is the Quicksilver Hourglass?

Adslahnit

2015-06-15, 03:54 PM

What is the Quicksilver Hourglass?

The Quicksilver Hourglass is an adventure from Dungeon #123 and an artifact of the same name. If it is brought into the Prime, the result is, to quote the adventure, "every living thing on that plane experiences 100 years of aging per round."

It will not quite obliterate the multiverse, but with very few mortals around in the Prime, most deities will wither away, and the Outer Planes will most likely reset to nearly blank slates.

Khedrac

2015-06-15, 04:19 PM

1. Would you happen to know of any canonical spell, artifact, creature, location, or other effect that converts raw destruction, decay, or entropy (not necessarily positive energy) into pure creative energy? If so, what is it?
Hmm, not sure if this makes it into the Planescape interpretation of Mystara, but technically the Nucleus of the Spheres after the Old One intervention in the adventure path from Wrath of the Immortals (which was the re-written Immortals rules for BECM/Cyclopedia D&D) fits this.

It started as a Nuclear Reactor.
It got meddled with and ended up as an artifact (probably) that, whilst causing radiation poisoning, could elevate mortals directly to Empyreal status (err, call it Lesser Deity status).
However to do this it was slowly draining magic from the world.
Various things happened as a result of this and the Old Ones noticed and stepped it and altered it to draw directly from Entropy.
At this point the one immortal (well lesser god) known to have been elevated by it got sucked in to it, fate unknown but presumed alive.

Note: interfering with this is a very, very bad idea; if the Old Ones notice and decide to take action there is nothing anyone can do about it. These guys are aspects of the game world way above the most powerful gods and goddesses (and Pun-pun) - if you come up with a defense that relies on the rules they will bypass it - they are beyond the games rules (so aleax of yourself? - unmade just like that if they can be bothered).

Adslahnit

2015-06-16, 03:25 AM

Elder Evils, page 129 states: "The Herald 'believes' the wizard intends to plunge a sphere of annihilation into the well of many worlds and thus erase the world and perhaps all worlds."

Elder Evils, page 143 states: "Although the procedure Edwin uses to release the Worm that Walks should succeed, it has other unforeseen consequences. The sphere becomes a 'black hole,' annihilating everything in existence. If abandoned, it picks up speed and power, drawing the island, the waters, the air and everything else on the Material Plane into its dimensional fissure, erasing all existence in 1d12+6 minutes."

Does it really take only a sphere of annihilation and a well of many worlds to delete all of the Prime? Why has someone (probably a Doomguard) not already done so?

enderlord99

2015-06-16, 03:48 AM

All those methods only affect one sphere anyway. At most!

Adslahnit

2015-06-16, 04:24 AM

All those methods only affect one sphere anyway. At most!

I was under the assumption that "the Material Plane" included all crystal spheres.

Is this incorrect?

After all, Chapter 4 of the 3.0 Manual of the Planes sets only one Material Plane per cosmology; any alternate Material Planes "have their own unique cosmologies."

Tzardok

2015-06-16, 10:04 AM

Adslahnit

2015-06-16, 12:27 PM

Tzardok

2015-06-16, 01:07 PM

I hadn't thought of that...

In Lords of Madness the neogi and the tsochar are mentioned as being from different planets on the same Material Plane (without making any mention of crystal spheres), so... other planets?:smallconfused:

DCDC420

2015-06-16, 02:16 PM

They're not actually incorrect when they say "different planets", strictly speaking.

afroakuma

2015-06-16, 03:21 PM

1. Would you happen to know of any canonical spell, artifact, creature, location, or other effect that converts raw destruction, decay, or entropy (not necessarily negative energy) into pure creative energy?

Such a thing may well exist, but I can't think of anything offhand.

2. Aside from Pandorym, the Quicksilver Hourglass, and perhaps Tharizdun, what other canonical artifacts and creatures are designed/ingrained to destroy the multiverse and will probably succeed (or partially succeed) at doing so if unleashed?

Okay, I'm going to need to take a time out here to address the Quicksilver Hourglass, an adventure I've never before bothered to read but was at best vaguely aware of.

This adventure, an epic-level romp by a first-time Dungeon author, is not canonical.

And that's about it.

Elder Evils, page 129 states

...lots of garbage. No force known can damage a crystal sphere, which would stop a black hole from eliminating "all existence" rather nicely, to say nothing of the limited impact it would have given the vastness of wildspace. Once more, a poor author contributing to that book is causing headaches.

As was already observed, 3.X products had a bad tendency to view "the world you play on" as the Material Plane and nothing else, due to a change in creative direction that segregated the various settings to prevent continuity lockout and give each world its own identity. Unfortunately, they also tapped many of the same authors who had worked on earlier successful products in lines where this was not the case, or who were adapting bigger concepts and notions without conforming to this view. Therefore, they kept talking about the broader multiverse as a setting - planes, planets, gods, monsters - because it's more interesting. :smalltongue:

Neither Pandorym nor the Quicksilver Hourglass nor Edwin Tolstoff combining a minor artifact with an 82,000 gp magic item are at any risk of destroying all reality.

Adslahnit

2015-06-16, 03:28 PM

Neither Pandorym nor the Quicksilver Hourglass nor Edwin Tolstoff combining a minor artifact with an 82,000 gp magic item are at any risk of destroying all reality.

What about Tharizdun?

Would the Sphere of Annihilation + Well of Many Worlds trick eradicate a single crystal sphere?

Also, the 3.0 Manual of the Planes does mention other planets in its description of the default Material Plane, "Oerth," so even under that design direction in 3.X, there are indeed multiple planets in a single "Material Plane." The Pandorym section of Elder Evils also mentions Pandorym potentially destroying the "Material Plane" one world at a time.

enderlord99

2015-06-16, 06:51 PM

What about Tharizdun?
If (and that's a big "if) he somehow escaped the inescapable demiplane where he's held, he would probably destroy the contents of Grayspace (the sphere with Oerth in it) and severely damage those of a few other spheres. All sphere walls would remain fine, because that's how spheres work.

Would the Sphere of Annihilation + Well of Many Worlds trick eradicate a single crystal sphere?
Define "eradicate." It could probably empty one, but then again maybe not...[/QUOTE]

Naanomi

2015-06-16, 07:25 PM

What happens to an object caught in the space when a natural portal on a crystal sphere closes. Does it make a difference if it is indestructible (a shard of the broken sphere let's say) or intangible? What if it is a sphere of annihilation?

Bronk

2015-06-16, 07:45 PM

That is because the 3.0 Manual of the Planes does not include crystal spheres. From our (Planescape influenced) view, every setting is in one crystal sphere on the same Material Plane. From "Manual of the Planes"-point of view, every setting is its own Material Plane, with its own cosmology. That is also the base everything in 3.0 and 3.5 is derived from. So "Material Plane in 3.0"="Crystal sphere in Planescape (or Spelljammer or whatever)" isn't very farfetched.

Also, the 3.0 Manual of the Planes does mention other planets in its description of the default Material Plane, "Oerth," so even under that design direction in 3.X, there are indeed multiple planets in a single "Material Plane." The Pandorym section of Elder Evils also mentions Pandorym potentially destroying the "Material Plane" one world at a time.

Aside from teasers in Lords of Madness, Spelljamming is also mentioned for 3.5 in Dragon 339, Dungeon 92 / Polyhedron 151, and the Spelljammer itself is mentioned in The Grand History of the Realms on page 93.

Other planets and moons that were more prominent in the Spelljammer setting are mentioned briefly in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting as well.

afroakuma

2015-06-16, 09:11 PM

What about Tharizdun?

Tharizdun could likely wipe out a whole crystal sphere if released and left unchecked.

Would the Sphere of Annihilation + Well of Many Worlds trick eradicate a single crystal sphere?

There's no such trick. A sphere of annihilation making contact with a well of many worlds would, at worst, have the same effect as the standard gate interaction. Not positive for anyone nearby, but it won't wipe a crystal sphere by any means.

Also, the 3.0 Manual of the Planes does mention other planets

I promise you I am aware. If you have a point to make, I fail to see it. Nobody cares if Kule gets unraveled.

What happens to an object caught in the space when a natural portal on a crystal sphere closes.

Shunted to one side or the other.

Extra Anchovies

2015-06-16, 09:26 PM

There's no such trick. A sphere of annihilation making contact with a well of many worlds would, at worst, have the same effect as the standard gate interaction. Not positive for anyone nearby, but it won't wipe a crystal sphere by any means.

Elder Evils begs to differ. Here's its description of what happens when a SoA enters a WoMW:

The sphere becomes a “black hole,” annihilating everything in existence. If abandoned, it picks up speed and power, drawing the island, the waters, the air and everything else on the Material Plane into its dimensional fissure, erasing all existence in 1d12+6 minutes.
Unless, of course, you're already aware of that and your interpretation is that the black hole only forms if Kyuss is released, and the SoA entering the WoMW just happens to be the means of performing the latter.

enderlord99

2015-06-16, 09:35 PM

Elder Evils begs to differ.

Elder Evils says a bunch of stupid stuff. What's your point?

Adslahnit

2015-06-16, 10:36 PM

What truly does falls under the category of beings, artifacts, and effects that stand a very good chance of emptying the contents of multiple crystal spheres, and are intended/designed to do so?

Extra Anchovies

2015-06-16, 10:48 PM

Elder Evils says a bunch of stupid stuff. What's your point?

I was making sure afroakuma was aware of that passage from EE, and wondering what his take on it was. No need to be rude.

afroakuma

2015-06-16, 10:58 PM

Elder Evils

Is a terrible book. I categorically deny that anything it says matters if it's going to be that poorly thought out and lazily edited.

What truly does falls under the category of beings, artifacts, and effects that stand a very good chance of emptying the contents of multiple crystal spheres, and are intended/designed to do so?

I have no interest in searching up any materials on this topic at this time. You may look into previous threads to see if answers are available there, or wait until such a time as I am no longer feeling confrontational about this topic and try your question again.

Gralamin

2015-06-17, 01:58 AM

I was thinking of ideas for planar threats for fun and stumbled upon an idea I like. While I'm likely to stat these things up anyway, I was wondering if they even made sense with how planes work.

Can an idea become awakened and aligned with a plane, without materializing any sort of form? Could a theory or formula become aware on Mechanus and hide itself away in others heads to spread itself, to try and possibly achieve itself? Could Limbo spin the very inklings of ideas into a similar form, which could spread through people like wildfire, distorting as it went? Or would this sort of being usually manifest as an exemplar of the plane?

For that matter, are there any good sources to read about psionics and the planes?

WalkingTheShade

2015-06-17, 03:41 AM

Could a theory or formula become aware on Mechanus and hide itself away in others heads to spread itself, to try and possibly achieve itself?

2nd Ed Planescape had the Moigno (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/moigno.php).

More to the point of your post, I have kinda the same preoccupations about the planes. However, Planescape tends to do what you describe with incarnated metaphors; the whole philosophers with clubs schtick. Planescape is often described as post-modern fantasy. However, the underlying assumption that ideas and faith, when shared by enough people, can take a life of their own, eventually turning against their originators, smells strongly of modernism.
So yeah, usually, it seems that ideas become powers or exemplars. I'd imagine it to be possible for something to take root, not enough to become incarnate, but enough to want to become incarnate, trying to convince people of its own necessity.
We need a meme monster : D

Brookshw

2015-06-17, 07:13 AM

Is it known what or who caused the collapse of the Reigar civilization? If no Canon is available speculation is fine.

I've come across "Leviathan Ghost Ships" in relation to spell jammer but have no idea what they are. What are they?

afroakuma

2015-06-17, 07:51 AM

Can an idea become awakened and aligned with a plane, without materializing any sort of form? Could a theory or formula become aware on Mechanus and hide itself away in others heads to spread itself, to try and possibly achieve itself? Could Limbo spin the very inklings of ideas into a similar form, which could spread through people like wildfire, distorting as it went? Or would this sort of being usually manifest as an exemplar of the plane?

It'd manifest as something, but you could certainly have some kind of, say, extraplanar incorporeal aberration that functioned like a living meme. A swarm of notion-motes. An aura of strange inspiration. No I haven't thought about this before, why do you ask? :smalltongue:

tl;dr it will become something, but it doesn't have to be an exemplar, corporeal, or even a creature at all.

For that matter, are there any good sources to read about psionics and the planes?

Nada.

Is it known what or who caused the collapse of the Reigar civilization? If no Canon is available speculation is fine.

The destruction of the homeworld would not have helped, nor would their natural desire to spread out and be unique special snowflakes. In many ways the reigar are the ultimate send-up of Mary Sues, right down to being sparkly and totally unique and a lost race. The consequences? They're highly visible and sought after by both good and evil, don't spend a lot of time with one another because redundant experiences do not interest them, and are scattered across arcane space with little desire to un-scatter.

I've come across "Leviathan Ghost Ships" in relation to spell jammer but have no idea what they are. What are they?

Space leviathans, massive spacefaring vessels so incredibly vast that other ships can not just dock alongside them, but often even within their hulls. Every single leviathan ever found is a derelict, therefore "leviathan ghost ships."

WalkingTheShade

2015-06-17, 08:24 AM

It'd manifest as something, but you could certainly have some kind of, say, extraplanar incorporeal aberration that functioned like a living meme. A swarm of notion-motes. An aura of strange inspiration. No I haven't thought about this before, why do you ask? :smalltongue:

tl;dr it will become something, but it doesn't have to be an exemplar, corporeal, or even a creature at all.

Stats for the meme monster!

Space leviathans, massive spacefaring vessels so incredibly vast that other ships can not just dock alongside them, but often even within their hulls. Every single leviathan ever found is a derelict, therefore "leviathan ghost ships."

Are they also usually full of insectoid things that can mind control people?

New line of questions:
What can you tell me about the Palace of the Jester in Sigil, and its master?
Has the jester done anything interesting in canon? I didn't see any interesting mentions outside of In the Cage.

Brookshw

2015-06-17, 09:22 AM

It'd manifest as something, but you could certainly have some kind of, say, extraplanar incorporeal aberration that functioned like a living meme. A swarm of notion-motes. An aura of strange inspiration. No I haven't thought about this before, why do you ask? :smalltongue:

tl;dr it will become something, but it doesn't have to be an exemplar, corporeal, or even a creature at all.
Kinda reminds me of those living equations on Mechanus.

Space leviathans, massive spacefaring vessels so incredibly vast that other ships can not just dock alongside them, but often even within their hulls. Every single leviathan ever found is a derelict, therefore "leviathan ghost ships."
Nifty! Any sources you can point me to for further details? Rumored origins, what's been found on them, etc?

afroakuma

2015-06-17, 04:34 PM

What can you tell me about the Palace of the Jester in Sigil, and its master?

Nothing you don't already know.

Has the jester done anything interesting in canon? I didn't see any interesting mentions outside of In the Cage.

Typically if it's In The Cage it's out of focus. Few things from that book cropped up again. In fairness most of the Planescape line was a dizzying array of plot hooks that would age Atreyu to dust.

Nifty! Any sources you can point me to for further details? Rumored origins, what's been found on them, etc?

The only mention is in Lost Ships, where they're curiously undersized, considering...

enderlord99

2015-06-17, 06:25 PM

In fairness most of the Planescape line was a dizzying array of plot hooks that would age Atreyu to dust.

:smallconfused:I don't see what's so impressive about an Orange County metal band's longevity...

On the "±10-scale" how likely is the phrase "Freakin' Metal" propoganda for some variety of fiend, seeing as it's a synonym for both "awesome" and "Evil"

IFF P>0, which variety of fiend would it belong to? I'm guessing Tanar'ri, and more specifically Vrocks, but I really have no way of knowing...

WalkingTheShade

2015-06-18, 03:44 AM

IFF P>0, which variety of fiend would it belong to? I'm guessing Tanar'ri, and more specifically Vrocks, but I really have no way of knowing...

Technical and symphonic black metal sound lawful to me. Deathgrind sounds abyssal. Dark folk is for Hades.
Because of you I now picture headbanging kytons whipping everyone around, isolated solamiths moshing in a crowd of dretches.
A succubus bard makes for a great frontwoman.

Eldan

2015-06-18, 04:06 AM

:smallconfused:I don't see what's so impressive about an Orange County metal band's longevity..

Get thee to a bookshop, heathen.

WalkingTheShade

2015-06-18, 10:24 AM

What is the nature of Animal Lords?
What is their origin? Are they a product of the Beastlands? There neutral alignment seems to indicate the contrary.

What is their power level, relative to other planar beings? Paka (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/paka.php) clerics believe they get their spells from the Cat Lord.

atemu1234

2015-06-18, 02:06 PM

Technical and symphonic black metal sound lawful to me. Deathgrind sounds abyssal. Dark folk is for Hades.
Because of you I now picture headbanging kytons whipping everyone around, isolated solamiths moshing in a crowd of dretches.
A succubus bard makes for a great frontwoman.

... I'm getting a very Fourth World vibe from that last one...

afroakuma

2015-06-18, 02:14 PM

What is the nature of Animal Lords?
What is their origin? Are they a product of the Beastlands? There neutral alignment seems to indicate the contrary.

Oh they're definitely tied to the Beastlands; each animal lord is instituted by the plane upon the passing of its predecessor, awakened from one of the many animals that live on the plane. They're neutral because animals are neutral.

What is their power level, relative to other planar beings?

In 2E, stupidly low. Even the original AD&D cat lord was pretty weak compared to other noteworthy planar beings. They should be much more powerful, considering how they are treated.

Paka (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/paka.php) clerics believe they get their spells from the Cat Lord.

Paka clerics are stupid. :smalltongue:

Jowgen

2015-06-19, 01:48 AM

I thought I'd note, the Epic Level Handbook does have stats for the catlord as an epic level character and comes with the suggestion that you might want to upgrade him to a deity.

WalkingTheShade

2015-06-19, 03:59 AM

Oh they're definitely tied to the Beastlands; each animal lord is instituted by the plane upon the passing of its predecessor, awakened from one of the many animals that live on the plane. They're neutral because animals are neutral.

Yet, a lot of these animals are souls of Beastland petitioners. Does that mean that the plane "promotes" a non-petitioner non-celestial animal?
By "awakened", do you mean in a way similar to the the awaken spell?
If yes to both prior questions, going from the logic of thread 5, one could conclude animal lords only have an animus and no proper soul.

For now, I conceive them as a "promoted" animal-looking petitioner, but then forcing an alignment change seems a bit harsh. Or then the plane might choose only neutral petitioners, but then one might ask how did those end up in the Beastlands instead of the Concordant Domain. (Only druid souls gone to the Beastlands can be "promoted" into animal lords?)
I'm welcome to your opinion.

In 2E, stupidly low. Even the original AD&D cat lord was pretty weak compared to other noteworthy planar beings. They should be much more powerful, considering how they are treated.

What should be their power level in your opinion? Proxy, power, exemplar lord, Primus-like?

Paka clerics are stupid. :smalltongue:
Before asking my next question about Pakas, is there a known item or spell to protect one from black lightning?

Are you familiar with Gunnerkrigg Court?

afroakuma

2015-06-19, 06:51 AM

I thought I'd note, the Epic Level Handbook does have stats for the catlord as an epic level character and comes with the suggestion that you might want to upgrade him to a deity.

Hey look, it's old 1st Edition Cat Lord! :smallbiggrin:

However, that Cat Lord is not the cat lord; he's the Cat Lord. The Cat Lord isn't the cat lord, because the cat lord is not the Cat Lord. Being that she's a lady and all...

Yet, a lot of these animals are souls of Beastland petitioners. Does that mean that the plane "promotes" a non-petitioner non-celestial animal?

Yep.

By "awakened", do you mean in a way similar to the the awaken spell?

Enh, yes and no. Yes insofar as it gets smarter and whatnot, but no otherwise.

If yes to both prior questions, going from the logic of thread 5, one could conclude animal lords only have an animus and no proper soul.

How could we conclude that? Animals have souls. :smallconfused:

What should be their power level in your opinion? Proxy, power, exemplar lord, Primus-like?

I'd say they line up with high-end exemplar status, mayyyyybe as far as a Duke of Hell but in general I'd bet they're individually somewhere in that space between cornugon and pit fiend.

Before asking my next question about Pakas, is there a known item or spell to protect one from black lightning?

There is, and y'ain't got one. :smallamused:

Are you familiar with Gunnerkrigg Court?

Nope.

WalkingTheShade

2015-06-19, 09:17 AM

Enh, yes and no. Yes insofar as it gets smarter and whatnot, but no otherwise.
One could be led to think that some of the plane's essence is transferred into the newly begotten animal lord.

How could we conclude that? Animals have souls. :smallconfused:
Misread on my part, nothing to see here, move along.

I'd say they line up with high-end exemplar status, mayyyyybe as far as a Duke of Hell but in general I'd bet they're individually somewhere in that space between cornugon and pit fiend.
I'm going to with the stronger ones (predators) at high-end exemplar level, and the weaker ones (herbivores, rodents, etc.) at big monster level.

There is, and y'ain't got one. :smallamused:
*takes cover* Whence, o fiend of the coiffure disco, does a paka cleric get her spells? Tharizdun?

Nope.
So actually, some of my questions are geared toward writing something like (http://gunnerkrigg.wikia.com/wiki/Coyote) this (http://gunnerkrigg.com/?p=484) to troll my players. I'm thinking of a Fox/Coyote/Jackal animal lord with some trickery powers thrown in. I need it just below full deity power, but still powerful enough to circumvent a medium Power's plans as long as no one is actively looking for it.
Until now, my headcannon says that animal lords are revered by primitive mortals with animistic beliefs, and that the lords as a whole get some diffuse power out of this faith.

Tzardok

2015-06-19, 09:22 AM

Hey look, it's old 1st Edition Cat Lord! :smallbiggrin:

However, that Cat Lord is not the cat lord; he's the Cat Lord. The Cat Lord isn't the cat lord, because the cat lord is not the Cat Lord. Being that she's a lady and all...

Now I am totally and utterly confused. Where's the difference?:smallconfused:

Urpriest

2015-06-19, 09:24 AM

*takes cover* Whence, o fiend of the coiffure disco, does a paka cleric get her spells? Tharizdun?

One thing to keep in mind: according to the link you gave, Paka live in Ravenloft. I had the impression that all Ravenloft Clerics actually get their spells from the Dark Powers.

WalkingTheShade

2015-06-19, 10:41 AM

Now I am totally and utterly confused. Where's the difference?:smallconfused:
The Cat Lord was captured by the Deliverers who delivered him to Malar who proceeded to hunt him and then ate him whereas the cat lord is the poor and beautiful innocent being that was much tragically and undeservingly framed for the disappearance of the Cat Lord; also the cat lord is much hotter than the Cat Lord because DiTerlizzi.Simple.
http://www.lomion.de/cmm/img/spc/catlord.gif
EDIT for Fridge logic: I just realized why Malar had a so much fun with the Cat Lord: he got to hunt the Cat Lord and eat the Cat Lord, once and then eight other times again.

One thing to keep in mind: according to the link you gave, Paka live in Ravenloft. I had the impression that all Ravenloft Clerics actually get their spells from the Dark Powers.
I was suspecting something like this.
If that's true, does that mean that a cleric of Tyr stumbling into the Demiplane of Dread would be trolled big time? Or does that apply only to clerics native of that demiplane?

afroakuma

2015-06-19, 10:54 AM

One could be led to think that some of the plane's essence is transferred into the newly begotten animal lord.

I would expect that to be the case, yes.

I'm going to with the stronger ones (predators) at high-end exemplar level, and the weaker ones (herbivores, rodents, etc.) at big monster level.

I would imagine that many of the herbivores are quite strong just because they are patrons of more populous animals. In animal form probably not as much but I tell you I would not elect to piss off a hippopotamus.

*takes cover* Whence, o fiend of the coiffure disco, does a paka cleric get her spells?

Cover. Heh. That's funny.

One thing to keep in mind: according to the link you gave, Paka live in Ravenloft. I had the impression that all Ravenloft Clerics actually get their spells from the Dark Powers.

So actually, some of my questions are geared toward writing something like (http://gunnerkrigg.wikia.com/wiki/Coyote) this (http://gunnerkrigg.com/?p=484) to troll my players. I'm thinking of a Fox/Coyote/Jackal animal lord with some trickery powers thrown in. I need it just below full deity power, but still powerful enough to circumvent a medium Power's plans as long as no one is actively looking for it.

I doubt you want an animal lord, then. I was, incidentally, planning to create an animal lord template at some point.

Now I am totally and utterly confused. Where's the difference?:smallconfused:

...between ladies and gents? :smallconfused:

Well that would, I suppose, be the difference between this (http://dungeonsmaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/cat-lord-01.jpg) and this (http://dungeonsmaster.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/diterlizzi-cat-lord.jpg). :smallcool:

That should clear everything up. One is a unique outsider, the other is a cosmic role.

Urpriest

2015-06-19, 10:56 AM

I was suspecting something like this.
If that's true, does that mean that a cleric of Tyr stumbling into the Demiplane of Dread would be trolled big time? Or does that apply only to clerics native of that demiplane?

Again, I may be misremembering, but the impression I had was that the whole point of this policy was to troll clerics who are pulled into the mists.

WalkingTheShade

2015-06-19, 11:52 AM

Cover. Heh. That's funny.
Funny is good. Funny is distracting.

I doubt you want an animal lord, then. I was, incidentally, planning to create an animal lord template at some point.
I am open to suggestions, hence the asking. Hitherto, would you suggest anything?

One is a unique outsider, the other is a cosmic role.
But did the unique outsider endorse the cosmic role at any point?
Was I mistaken to think that the Cat Lord is the same being as the one eaten by Malar prior to the events of Something Wild?

afroakuma

2015-06-19, 09:29 PM

Funny is good. Funny is distracting.

Sure sure.

I am open to suggestions, hence the asking. Hitherto, would you suggest anything?

Nope. I mean, sounds like an aboriginal trickster deity, but you want less-than-divine. Some sort of unique outsider, perhaps?

But did the unique outsider endorse the cosmic role at any point?
Was I mistaken to think that the Cat Lord is the same being as the one eaten by Malar prior to the events of Something Wild?

Given that this one is statted in the ELH, I would expect so. :smalltongue:

There seems to have been some conflation between the Cat Lord and the animal lords of Planescape. Let me go into the history lesson. Originally (1e MMII) there was only the Cat Lord, a unique being who could summon a whole whack of cats, spit you blind, lick his wounds, and was a relatively powerful fellow. In the original (1e) Manual of the Planes, it was proposed that "Beast Lords" or "Masters of the Cults of the Beast" lived on the Happy Hunting Grounds, the ultimate examples of their kind; this proposed that these Beast Lords were in fact lesser powers or demipowers and that the Cat Lord was one such being.

When 2E rolled around, they had a rather more clear idea about the animal lords, and put four of their number in the PSMC2. Perhaps in deference to the past, they noted that the new cat lord was female and that her predecessor had been a male. However, he would have not fit in at all with the animal lords of this era. He was also being tied to Greyhawk by the writings of Gary Gygax, who included the character (as "Rexfelis") in his Gord the Rogue novels.

So in short, you have the Cat Lord, a godlike being whose attentions are on the Material Plane, an epic rogue with a suite of strange powers and a relic that entitles him to nine lives; and you have the cat lord, the representative of felines on the Beastlands, decidedly unconcerned with Material Plane happenings much of the time and armed with a long sword of wounding and a small set of abilities.

I think it's time for something better and more concrete, don't you? :smalltongue:

enderlord99

2015-06-19, 10:13 PM

There is, and y'ain't got one. :smallamused:

It's a major artifact, isn't it?

Tovec

2015-06-20, 03:58 AM

As I understand it then, the difference between the cat lords is like the difference between the princes.

There is the Prince, the singer. And the Prince, the one of Wales.
There is the Cat Lord, the dude. And the cat lord, the (female) representative of cats?

Is that about right? One unique and the other being "the" but being a member of a set of all "the"s?

Khedrac

2015-06-20, 06:02 AM

And in one of the Forgotten Realms short stories (I can find it if wanted) a group of cat lords passed through a town...
I think the novel was 2nd Ed in date.

enderlord99

2015-06-20, 07:29 PM

And in one of the Forgotten Realms short stories (I can find it if wanted) a group of cat lords passed through a town...
I think the novel was 2nd Ed in date.

Presumably, those were just lords that happened to also be cats.

afroakuma

2015-06-21, 09:57 PM

It's a major artifact, isn't it?

Pragma Fulgurite. There's a large vein of them under Lord_Gareth, as I understand.

As I understand it then, the difference between the cat lords is like the difference between the princes.

There is the Prince, the singer. And the Prince, the one of Wales.
There is the Cat Lord, the dude. And the cat lord, the (female) representative of cats?

Surprisingly apt.

Lord_Gareth

2015-06-21, 10:11 PM

Pragma Fulgurite. There's a large vein of them under Lord_Gareth, as I understand.

Can confirm, astonishing resilience against black lightning. Efforts to summon the Dragon King continue to fail.

Lord_Gareth

2015-06-22, 03:39 PM

Also, where in the multiverse might I find sapient volcanoes?

Mr Adventurer

2015-06-22, 03:41 PM

Anywhere they're a Genius Loci?

Lord_Gareth

2015-06-22, 05:11 PM

Anywhere they're a Genius Loci?

The Dark Lord knows what I did.

WalkingTheShade

2015-06-23, 04:24 AM

Sure sure.

Pragma Fulgurite.
Behold the power of distraction!

Nope. I mean, sounds like an aboriginal trickster deity, but you want less-than-divine. Some sort of unique outsider, perhaps?
Hence my idea to use an animal lord. Because they're unique, and also they're outsiders. This entails some tweaking of their nature (i.e. the ability to metabolize faith in primitive deities), but hey, it's not as if they were written perfectly to begin with.
However, if I understand well, you meant I need a Cat Lord, not a cat lord for what I am trying to do.

Let me go into the history lesson.
Thanks a lot. You're decidedly and definitively very helpful with those ontogenical explanations; I probably wouldn't get such a clear answer anywhere else. I understand clearly now.

I think it's time for something better and more concrete, don't you? :smalltongue:
I, for one, am most expectant.

Khedrac

2015-06-23, 06:18 AM

Also, where in the multiverse might I find sapient volcanoes?
Well, not "sapient volcanoes" per se, but a Megalith (most likely findable in Mystara's environs) is sapient and has a lot of volcanoes on it.. Probably better to go for one not in a dormant phase or those volcanoes act as point defence against anything coming near.
(Note: Megaliths are sapient planets with power level about that of a weak greater deity, including divine rank.)

Xuldarinar

2015-06-23, 06:38 AM

It is stated in dragon magazine 330, in reference to the multiverse's connection to the far realm, that "knowledge of the Far Realm persists in the multiverse even now, and that knowledge alone is sufficient to maintain that connection."

Not that it would be a feasible task in the context, but could one have an impact upon this connection by removing every trace of knowledge of the far realm? Could the far realm be disconnected from the wheel? Would raising awareness of the far realm have the inverse effect?

enderlord99

2015-06-23, 07:19 AM

It is stated in dragon magazine 330, in reference to the multiverse's connection to the far realm, that "knowledge of the Far Realm persists in the multiverse even now, and that knowledge alone is sufficient to maintain that connection."

Not that it would be a feasible task in the context, but could one have an impact upon this connection by removing every trace of knowledge of the far realm?Probably not.
Could the far realm be disconnected from the wheel?Seems pretty disconnected already.
Would raising awareness of the far realm have the inverse effect?No.

WalkingTheShade

2015-06-23, 08:15 AM

It is stated in dragon magazine 330, in reference to the multiverse's connection to the far realm, that "knowledge of the Far Realm persists in the multiverse even now, and that knowledge alone is sufficient to maintain that connection."
I view that as a meta statement about the way D&D players use the Far Realm in their games. By this logic, if someone went around and "took care" of every D&D player that knows about the Far Realm, destroyed every game book mentioning it and every online mention...

afroakuma

2015-06-23, 09:20 PM

Also, where in the multiverse might I find sapient volcanoes?

NOWHERE ONCE I GET THROUGH WITH THEM. /has seen Inside Out

It is stated in dragon magazine 330, in reference to the multiverse's connection to the far realm, that "knowledge of the Far Realm persists in the multiverse even now, and that knowledge alone is sufficient to maintain that connection."

Foolish statement, but what can you do.

Not that it would be a feasible task in the context, but could one have an impact upon this connection by removing every trace of knowledge of the far realm?

Only insofar as less idiots would go poking at it.

Could the far realm be disconnected from the wheel?

About as much as the planet Neptune can be disconnected from Japan.

Would raising awareness of the far realm have the inverse effect?

More idiots would try to poke at it, but if you're trying to read that passage in a literal sense, don't.

WalkingTheShade

2015-06-24, 02:20 AM

Using the enderlord99 ±10-scale of Conjecture Compatibility with Canon, what is the believability of the following sentences:
Sigil is the Ordial Plane.
Sigil is on the Ordial Plane.
The Ordial Plane is the infinite nothingness outside of Sigil.

What can you tell me about the Planewalker Guild whose headquarters are located at the beginning of the Infinite Staircase? Any notable role or appearance outside Tales from the Infinite Staircase?

afroakuma

2015-06-24, 10:57 AM

Using the enderlord99 ±10-scale of Conjecture Compatibility with Canon, what is the believability of the following sentences:

No. :smalltongue:

What can you tell me about the Planewalker Guild whose headquarters are located at the beginning of the Infinite Staircase? Any notable role or appearance outside Tales from the Infinite Staircase?

That's the big one. They're not majorly involved in anything; but then, when your guild is built on a planar pathway, you make for a valuable contact indeed.

enderlord99

2015-06-24, 11:35 AM

No. :smalltongue:

-9, in other words?

Eldan

2015-06-24, 11:38 AM

Judging by the lack of rains of brimstone and swarms of two-headed crows accompanying that "no", that's more a -4.

WalkingTheShade

2015-06-25, 06:32 AM

Judging by the lack of rains of brimstone and swarms of two-headed crows accompanying that "no", that's more a -4.
Depends on how you parse the "no", actually.
Looking at the post, one could understand that the "no" refers to the "Using the enderlord99 ±10-scale of Conjecture Compatibility with Canon, what is the believability of the following sentences" part, not to the sentences themselves. Meaning: "I won't use the enderlord99 ±10-scale of Conjecture Compatibility with Canon to give a believability rating to any of the following sentences".
As such, no rating is given to any of the three conjectures.

enderlord99

2015-06-25, 07:38 AM

Also, where in the multiverse might I find sapient volcanoes?

Youtube. They like filling their water with breakfast and talking to people named "Tyrannosaurus Alan."

Jurai

2015-06-25, 08:48 AM

Also, where in the multiverse might I find sapient volcanoes?

Sapient Volcanoes sounds like a good name for a post-punk band. Also, I've only been surfing these threads since about mid-to-late IV, and that, I think, is what we call a Mathematician's Answer. EVERYTHING about that question is NO.

Jowgen

2015-06-26, 02:08 AM

I was thinking about divine spells, specifically how they can be granted by worshiping an ideal or concept, and how that made deities kinda obsolete in that regard. Then it occurred to me how it was strange that deities could choose to have their worshippers not have spells, considering how a deity is not even specifically required to get divine magic. So I thought of an explanation, and would like to hear your opinion how it checks out.

In its natural state, divine magic flows purely from a soul's devotion to any given ideal. A sub-category of these ideals are known as portfolios: the pure aspects of mortal existence. Deities are wills/consciousnesses/souls that have cosmic power of because they are somehow latched onto one or more of those portfolios, like parasites.

The power of sufficient worship is what commonly allows a will/consciousness/soul to try and latch onto one of those powers (i.e. gain part of a portfolio), although other parasites can easily interfere/help. Deities of less-than-greater power require continued worship to maintain their infection of their portfolios. Due to how they've latched onto a portfolio, they have a measure of control over it; noticeably in the sense that they can give some of its power (i.e. grant spells) to a mortal who doesn't necessarily fully embrace the ideal, or choose to not grant any power.

So, true to their parasitic nature, deities promote being worshipped to increase their sway over the ideals they've infected. They use Dogmas to make worship sound appealing, offer easily graspable access to divine magic to mortals who don't have the capacity to (or aren't aware of the possibility) truly worship something as abstract as a cosmic ideal, and threaten with the immediate withholding of that power.

Some special cases are:

The Lady of Pain: Sigil, as the centre of everything, has massive untapped power that has been proven to be able to undo the multiverse, due to how it is strucutred. As deity-hood functions as a parasite, it is vital for the multiverse's existence that no deity be allowed within Sigil, since that would allow them to infect sigil and thus gain that power. The Lady of Pain doesn't tolerate being worshiped due this danger, as accepting worship would give her divine power and thus invariably have her tap that multi-verse-shattering power. That is also why she's so uncaring about everything else, as having biases would make her prone to accepting worship. Chances are, many mutliverses have collapsed and were re-done because the lady of pain in that multiverse failed to remain neutral and/or accepted worship, causing cosmic destruction. I'd like to think that's where Atropus came from. He was the last Lady of Pain and decided to scrap the last draft and start over.

The Dark powers of Ravenloft et al.: they have complete control over these cosmic power channels within their realm, similar to the Lady of Pain's absolute dominion over sigil. This brings us to...

Vecna: he was able to infiltrate Sigil because of the interaction between the rules governing Sigil and the Demiplane of Dread. Using the smidgen of divine power he had gotten from worship and Iuz, he forced the boundaries of the Demiplane of Dread to touch upon Sigil, causing the two abosolute-dominion zones to slightly cancel each other out on the edge, allowing him to slip through the blurred barrier. As the Lady of Pain didn't possess any worship (i.e. wasn't an active parasite), she could not contest Vecna using his relatively limited powers to take control of Sigil's power. Had Vecna succeeded, he'd likely be the Atropus of the next multiverse, except with everything in reverse as he was already undead... so he'd be living and happy to be in charge, rather than dead and wanting to destroy everything.

I think I've spun this fan-theory of mine far enough. Might run it as a canon in my next campaign. Might even make a thread about it to pose it for general discussion, but before that, yeah, any do you have any feedback? Any glaring plot-holes that I would need to address before this could be consistent with generic-setting D&D lore?

Also, on a completely unrelated note, would you mind (for what's probably the 13th time) going through the reason for and exact nature of the difference in power(s) between deities and the Lord of the Lower Planes? It's relevant to the latest how-to-kill-deities thread.

WalkingTheShade

2015-06-26, 07:53 AM

I'll leeve that here. Opinions and corrections are welcome. I'll edit it where I judge useful. If I could just come up with a better name for it...

Memnos

Memnoi are strange creatures native to the outer planes. Related to the Moigno, they straddle a line between idea and life, manifesting a will of their own. Nobody knows exactly how or when a Memnos forms, but sages think they are the consequences of ideas and fancies of primes. They are the byproducts of unproven theorems, conspiracy theories and superstitions enduring despite contrary experience. Each Memnos has its own appearance and manifests as an insubstantial image pertaining to its subject. Chaotic Memnoi pertain sometimes to absurd ideas or thought experiences, other times to subversive and avant-gardiste ideologies, and appear as chimerical amalgamations of various objects or clouds of lights and colors. Neutral Memnoi pertain to reasonable seeming but biased or uninformed opinions or otherwise baseless ideas, and appear as ghostly figure or object that symbolizes the Memnos' subject. Lawful Memnoi pertain to ideas that reinforce the multiversal order and scientific theories based on logical iterations, and usually appear as abstract geometrical shapes moving by their own mechanism, or strings of equations permutating in mid-air. Good and evil Memnoi are rare, as they tend to be ideas detached from morality.
However, what all Memnoi have in common is their incompleteness. Whether missing a key step in a demonstration, or incoherently incompatible with the multiverse, a Memnos exists in this form because it is unable to take substance as an organic part of the planes of belief. A Memnos' only goal is to become complete, thus realizing itself and merging with the multiverse. In order to do so, Memnoi scour their plane for mortals of great knowledge and creativity able to complete them. Chaotic memnoi tend to possess as many mortals as possible then leave them behind in their quest for completeness. Lawful Memnoi tend to go through a process of selection, discussing their subject with potential candidates and possessing one only in the case a promising candidate walks away without trying to help them.
No one is certain of the consequences of completing a Memnos. Some think that proving a Memnos might actually transforms the multiverse in accordance to the Memnos. If that is true, proving a particularly absurd Memnos might have devastating consequences. Other argue that might be the actual cause of the sometime counter-intuitive idiosyncrasies of the various planes.

Tiny outsider (incorporeal, psionic, alignment*)
HD: 1d8 (4)
Initiative: +4
Speed: Fly 50ft (perfect)
AC: 10
BaB: +1
Special Attack: Possess
Special Qualities: incorporeal, telepathy (100ft), psy-like abilities
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +5
Attributes: Str -, Dex 10, Con -, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14
Skills: 40 points, spread between skills relevant to subject
Feats: Improved Initiative
Alignment: Any
CR: 1
Environment: An outer plane of matching alignment
Advancement: 2-4HD (tiny), 5-8HD (small), 9-12HD (large), 13-16HD (huge), 17-20HD (gargantuan)

*Extra alignment subtypes: A Memnos gets extra subtypes corresponding to its alignment, when applicable.

Bound (Ex): A Memnos cannot go out of its plane of origin under any condition, except while possessing a being that leaves that plane.

Rebirth (Ex): A Memnos cannot be destroyed by ordinary methods. When reaching -10 HP, it simply disappears and reforms 3d10 hours later in a random location on its plane of origin.

Telepathy (Su): Memnoi can communicate telepathically with any sentient being speaking a language. The target of their telepathy always understands clearly whatever meaning the Memnos wishes to convey. However, a Memnos is solipsistic and unable to conceive of anything outside its subject or its quest for completeness.

Deconstruction (Ex): The only way to destroy a Memnos is to present it, either with a proof of its exactitude, or a disproof establishing its fallacy. The proof can be experimental (and presented in front of the Memnos) or purely theoretical. In general, establishing proof or disproof demands one hour, spent either in original research or in discussion with the Memnos, per HD of the Memnos. A character presenting the proof must pass a knowledge check, DC 12, covering the subject of the Memnos. This DC is Int based. If the character succeeds, the Memnos is destroyed. If the character fails, the Memnos, reinforced by new belief, gains one HD. The character has to restart the research from the beginning, taking into account the lengthened time and higher DC. Moreover, a particularly shaky or solid proof or disproof can receive a consequent bonus to the roll. For more practical or experimental attempts, the knowledge check can also be replaced by any other relevant check.

Possess (Su): A Memnos can try to possess any living being with a soul. To resist, the target of the ability must pass a DC 12 (Intelligence based) Will save. If the target fails, it is possessed by the Memnos and forgoes all pursuits to concentrate on the subject of the Memnos. It gains one outsider HD, the current skill ranks of the Memnos. Those skill become class skills for the duration of the possession. However, the DC to prove or disprove the Memnos is now calculated using the possessed creature HD and its intelligence score. A Memnos can end this possession at any moment, returning to its home plane if the possessed creature has moved to a different plane.

Psy-like abilities (Sp): At will, Read thoughts (DC 14) - 1/day, Psionic suggestion DC 14.

Advancement: With each HD beyond the 4th, a Memnos gains powers points and psionic powers as if taking a level of the Telepath psion class. A Memnos gains +1 Int for every 2HD after the first. Moreover, whenever a Memnos gains a HD, it may opt to instead create another Memnos sharing the same subject. Whenever a Memnos is proven or disproved, all other Memnoi born in that way are also destroyed.
__________________________

Example Memnoi :
- The Burning Hate, 10 HD CE Memnos: The Burning Hate is a Memnos haunting the lowest depths of Carceri. It seeks a way to get out of the red prison to establish that Pelor is in secret a power of Evil.
- The World Tree, 15 HD CG Memnos: The World Tree can be encountered on Ygdrasil. Many say it has been disproved many times, but keeps reappearing on Ysgard. Those who have communicated with it say the clueless Memnos understands nothing of the structure of the planes. The World Tree appears as a great tree whose limbs end into various intricately detailed domains looking suspiciously like various regions of the Outer planes.
- Hope unfounded, many 1 HD NG Memnoi: a populous group of 1HD Memnos runing around Elysium and spreading the idea that most Prime members of races like orc, goblinoids, gnolls, trolls and giants are actually a lot nicer than you'd think, but are just misunderstood and if people took the time to just talk with them everyone would get along. They appear as tiny balls of white light, and are often mistaken for lantern archons.

Urpriest

2015-06-26, 09:50 AM

As an Outsider with Int 14, shouldn't it have more skill points?

afroakuma

2015-06-26, 10:16 PM

As such, no rating is given to any of the three conjectures.

Well you got that right:

EVERYTHING about that question is NO.

I refuse to indulge this scale.

do you have any feedback?

Do you have a summary of all that? Cause I definitely don't have time for a full parse right now.

Also, on a completely unrelated note, would you mind (for what's probably the 13th time) going through the reason for and exact nature of the difference in power(s) between deities and the Lord of the Lower Planes? It's relevant to the latest how-to-kill-deities thread.

I refuse to contribute to those any more, even by proxy. Search for past answers, see if any will help you.

Living meme

Think you could slap a friendly spoiler block around that?

Eldan

2015-06-26, 11:34 PM

Sentient volcanoes? Plane of Magma. That sounds like a given to me.

enderlord99

2015-06-27, 01:08 AM

I refuse to indulge this scale.

Indeed. Now that people are using it for things they really should already know are incredibly stupid, it has clearly outlived its usefulness. I don't want my name attached to something used for such purposes, so I'm glad you've shut it down. I didn't expect it to get used for more than just the original chole-dragon-question anyway!

WalkingTheShade

2015-06-27, 03:47 AM

As an Outsider with Int 14, shouldn't it have more skill points?
Thanks for the feedback. It indeed should.
EDIT: I actually had to check your guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?207928-Urpriest-s-Monstrous-Monster-Handbook) to get it right.

Well you got that right:
+1 internet for me.

I refuse to indulge this scale.
This is noted.

Think you could slap a friendly spoiler block around that?
I think I could. I even just did.
Did that look even remotely like something you'd envision a few pages back when the question came up? I understand if you don't have the time to go through it at the moment.

Indeed. Now that people are using it for things they really should already know are incredibly stupid, it has clearly outlived its usefulness. I don't want my name attached to something used for such purposes, so I'm glad you've shut it down. I didn't expect it to get used for more than just the original chole-dragon-question anyway!
Well, mea culpa since I think I'm the only other one to have a. used the scale b. attached your name to it. My thongue wath sthrongly in my theek, however, and I didn't want to offend anyone. Use of the scale served however as a preamble to mark that I suspected the following question might sound ludicrous. Please don't hurt me.

More questions, like always.
We know the effect of proximity to the Spire on arcane and divine magic. However, does it have any effect on psychic powers? I didn't manage to unhearth any reference supporting any interpretation.

Jowgen

2015-06-27, 09:05 PM

Do you have a summary of all that? Cause I definitely don't have time for a full parse right now.

Well, okay, in brief:

Portfolios, the basic aspects of mortal existence, are a sub-category of the cosmic ideals that normally source divine magic directly to those who devote themselves/worship them. Deity-hood is the result of a will/soul/consciousness latching onto a portfolio in a parasitic fashion using the power of worship. In effect, deities infect the normal mortal-to-ideal connection of worship-to-divine-magic and use the worship of mortals to "glue" themselves to the portfolios in a manner that gives them a measure of control over them. That's why they have such power, require worship and can grant spells.

Sigil is the foundation of the multiverse and must remain free of deities lest those deities "infect" Sigil and change what is essentially the multiverse prime program or base-code or whatever. The lady of pain thus doesn't tolerate being worshiped lest she gain deity-status and thus inadvertedly mess with said prime program, like Vecna tried. Her power over sigil is functionally similar to that of the Dark Powers, in that she fully controls the entry, exit and worship-channels of sigil, and it is this similarity that allowed Vecna to break in by forcing an overlap of total-control zones.

So yeah, that's the roughly abridged version; sound reasonable?

NeoPhoenix0

2015-06-27, 10:49 PM

I have a question for you. I want to know if i am making stuff up in my mind again.

I remember reading somewhere that a layer of the abyss is actually a very large dormant creature. It isn't the great mother i am thinking of. Can you help me find such a layer or layers of the abyss?

Brookshw

2015-06-27, 11:02 PM

NeoPhoenix0

2015-06-27, 11:36 PM

You're not thinking of the draeden or demonwing are you?

The draeden is exactly what i was looking for, thank you. I read about it a long time ago and was never able to find stuff about it again when i went looking for it.

Melcar

2015-06-28, 04:51 AM

Knowing that you think it would be better to disregard the Great Tree cosmology and just use the Great Wheel, I wanted to poke around with the idea that both excisted. Now I know we have touched upon this before, but how would you se this being played out?

How would you incorporate the planes from the Great Treee and the Great Wheel into a complete or unified universe?

I ast since I actually like, the idear, that both set of planes excist, I just need some help in finding out how or where, and would like your thought on it... again! :smallbiggrin:

Rogthnor

2015-06-28, 07:35 AM

When discussing the Ghoresh Chasm, you stated that you believe that the evil counterpart to angels are what lies on the other side of the seals. But aren't devils the evil counterpart to angels?

WalkingTheShade

2015-06-28, 07:50 AM

When discussing the Ghoresh Chasm, you stated that you believe that the evil counterpart to angels are what lies on the other side of the seals. But aren't devils the evil counterpart to angels?

Devils (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm) are Lawful Evil exemplars, from Baator. Archons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm) are Lawful Good exemplars, from Mount Celestia.

Angels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm) are not exemplars, and can be Chaotic Good, Lawful Good or Neutral Good. Their origins are less clear than those of exemplar races. They serve as messengers for the Good-aligned powers.
In canon, they have no Evil "counterpart", meaning there are no Evil creatures serving a comparable role.

Rogthnor

2015-06-28, 08:43 AM

Follow up question then, what exactly do we know of their origins?

On an unrelated note, what are the transitive planes and what defines them as such?

afroakuma

2015-06-28, 12:14 PM

Well, okay, in brief: sound reasonable?

No.

I have a question for you. I want to know if i am making stuff up in my mind again.

I remember reading somewhere that a layer of the abyss is actually a very large dormant creature. It isn't the great mother i am thinking of. Can you help me find such a layer or layers of the abyss?

Ulgurshek.

Knowing that you think it would be better to disregard the Great Tree cosmology and just use the Great Wheel, I wanted to poke around with the idea that both excisted. Now I know we have touched upon this before, but how would you se this being played out?

How would you incorporate the planes from the Great Treee and the Great Wheel into a complete or unified universe?

I wouldn't. The planes of the Great Tree are stupid poorly-thought-out knockoffs. If I were forced to, I would make the Great Tree an alternate Prime's cosmology, which is what it was intended to do all along - forcibly split off FR from the core setting.

Follow up question then, what exactly do we know of their origins?

As far as we are aware, angels are Upper Planar native spirits shaped by the gods to serve as messengers and powerful minions.

On an unrelated note, what are the transitive planes and what defines them as such?

The Transitive Planes are the Ethereal Plane, the Plane of Shadow and the Astral Plane. They are the medium by which things are connected, and the basic building blocks of multiversal reality. Each is meant as more of a conduit or periphery than as a place filled with things - and so they tend to be largely empty, heavily tied to their coterminous and coexistent planes and generally alienating to "structure" and "permanence."

Extra Anchovies

2015-06-28, 12:47 PM

Ulgurshek.

Oooh, that looks neat. If I wanted to learn more about the layer and about the Draeden as a whole, what sources should I look into?

Melcar

2015-06-28, 01:21 PM

I knew you were going to say that. What I really wanted to ask, but couldn't because I'm bad at explaining, is, where would you place geographically if you had to the planes of the great wheel? If we assume there is one unified greater great wheel? Am I just repeating my self, or making sense?... or non of the above?

enderlord99

2015-06-28, 01:48 PM

atemu1234

2015-06-28, 01:59 PM

What methods could one use to unseat an Archduke? Specifically to take their place.

How could one become friends with Asmodeus? (this one's a little less serious, but is probably very important)

Khedrac

2015-06-28, 02:34 PM

Oooh, that looks neat. If I wanted to learn more about the layer and about the Draeden as a whole, what sources should I look into?

I can't help you with the information about the layer as a whole, but the main two sources of information about the Draeden are the Gold Box D&D Immortals rules and the Wrath of the Immortals D&D box (i.e. immortals rules 2). I believe there is some stuff scattered around the D&D books but it is just scraps.

NeoPhoenix0

2015-06-28, 02:43 PM

Oooh, that looks neat. If I wanted to learn more about the layer and about the Draeden as a whole, what sources should I look into?

There is also a couple paragraphs about Ulgursheck on pg 126 of the fiendish codex I. That's where i first found it, and never found it again because i never thought to look in the demonweb section because it is a completely different layer. Lolth has a serious hording problem.

WalkingTheShade

2015-06-28, 04:31 PM

We know the effect of proximity to the Spire on arcane and divine magic. However, does it have any effect on psychic powers? I didn't manage to unhearth any reference supporting any interpretation.
Did you miss this question? If not, please keep ignoring it.

afroakuma

2015-06-28, 07:15 PM

Oooh, that looks neat. If I wanted to learn more about the layer and about the Draeden as a whole, what sources should I look into?

Fiendish Codex I is the only mention of Ulgurshek. Draedens are very difficult to find info on; you'll want the Immortals Rules for that, or you can ask questions here (or search past threads).

I knew you were going to say that.

I'm very predictable when it comes to stupid things that I hate.

What I really wanted to ask, but couldn't because I'm bad at explaining, is, where would you place geographically if you had to the planes of the great wheel?

I wouldn't. I'd drink hemlock tea first. I consider the very idea that these planes have any value to be utterly farcical. The notion that they could be equal in stature to the planes of the Great Wheel is completely absurd. Almost all of them are nothing more than clumsily-"designed," pale imitations of the planes they're supposed to be. But here, I'll do two for you for free: I would place The Abyss in the Abyss and The Nine Hells in Baator.

I don't know why you think this is a desirable or interesting idea, but I'm not going to indulge it. Questions not pertaining to that abysmal excuse for a "creative" and "separate" cosmology remain welcome.

What methods could one use to unseat an Archduke? Specifically to take their place.

This is a classic. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGGDzEWvGRY&t=7s) I suppose the other conventional methods are also in order. Mind you it will ultimately depend on how Asmodeus feels about your accession.

How could one become friends with Asmodeus? (this one's a little less serious, but is probably very important)

Hm. Not really sure. He does have friends, of a sort...

We know the effect of proximity to the Spire on arcane and divine magic. However, does it have any effect on psychic powers? I didn't manage to unhearth any reference supporting any interpretation.

Psionics short out too. I would expect incarnum, binding, shadowmagic and truenaming all suffer the same fate. Martial initiators... hard to say.

NeoPhoenix0

2015-06-29, 03:21 AM

Psionics short out too. I would expect incarnum, binding, shadowmagic and truenaming all suffer the same fate. Martial initiators... hard to say.

Rules-wise, shadowmagic definitely shorts out. Fluff-wise it is basically just a very alien form of arcane magic linked to the shadow plane. so if arcane magic goes so does shadowmagic.

enderlord99

2015-06-29, 09:43 AM

If you go to a point about halfway between North-by-Clockwise and eleventy-twone-(on-a-logarithmic-scale)-plus-one-over-Idaho...

You'd still be in a place, right?

WalkingTheShade

2015-06-30, 02:06 AM

Questions pertaining to Something Wild:
- Just a detail: Claws of Malar, were they ever adapted for 3.X?
- I know that vaaths, vargouilles and demodands can be encountered on Colothys. What other natives dwell there?

Melcar

2015-06-30, 05:01 PM

I respect your possition on the cosmology, albeit I might no share it.

Ok... So what would you deem the best sources for valid/canon information on the planes, the deities who live theres etc. anno circa: 1350-1374-ish?

I have access to most 2nd and 3.x material. Dragon Magazines also.

Thanks

enderlord99

2015-06-30, 05:02 PM

anno circa: 1350-1374-ish?

What calendar system? Sigilian?

Melcar

2015-06-30, 05:58 PM

What calendar system? Sigilian?

Sorry DR as in Forgotten Realms Dale Reckoning.

afroakuma

2015-06-30, 07:22 PM

Questions pertaining to Something Wild:
- Just a detail: Claws of Malar, were they ever adapted for 3.X?

Officially? Don't think so.

- I know that vaaths, vargouilles and demodands can be encountered on Colothys. What other natives dwell there?

Egh... odopi, probably a few Tarterian dragons, bonespears, shrieking terrors, varrangoins have been found there, though they aren't native... local hordlings... utukku, vorr... I'd expect some bloodthorn.

Ok... So what would you deem the best sources for valid/canon information on the planes, the deities who live theres etc. anno circa: 1350-1374-ish?

Me. :smalltongue: A more comprehensive answer will have to wait.

Brookshw

2015-06-30, 08:41 PM

Empyreal Citadels, I kinda want to talk about them but don't have any actual questions do, I dunno, any thoughts where they'd be located (aside from listed "rumors" in Toril and Greyhawk), and interesting things to fill them with?

Also, kinda thinking about doing a Hindu inspired planar campaign but not sure how to structure it. Maybe kick out the transitive planes and replace them with a modified (see: neutral) beastlands? Keep Celestia and the nine hells but cut the latter down to seven? Any suggestions welcome. Understood if you don't want to touch this one.

Tzardok

2015-07-01, 01:16 AM

Mind you, all my Hindu knowledge is years old and I don't remember much, but maybe using the Plane of Spirits (Manual of the Planes) instead of the transitive planes?

WalkingTheShade

2015-07-01, 12:04 PM

Officially? Don't think so.
I'll stat it as an Exotic weapon, giving a +1/+1 bonus to attack when dual wielded, 1d6 damage for medium size, 20 critical, rend for 2d6+Str damage if both claws hit.

Egh... odopi, probably a few Tarterian dragons, bonespears, shrieking terrors, varrangoins have been found there, though they aren't native... local hordlings... utukku, vorr... I'd expect some bloodthorn.
Thanks a lot! Vorr and bonespear will come handy. I already knew about shrieking terrors, didn't mention them since they're pretty much implied by vargouilles.

afroakuma

2015-07-01, 08:12 PM

Empyreal Citadels, I kinda want to talk about them but don't have any actual questions do, I dunno, any thoughts where they'd be located (aside from listed "rumors" in Toril and Greyhawk), and interesting things to fill them with?

Oh, is it already time for another round of Let's Refer To One Of Fro's Least Favorite Books? Alright then. :smallyuk:

Ugh, let's see... I would expect that if an Empyreal Citadel is not somewhere in the Great Glacier, then it's likely not on the macrocontinent at all - too many adventurers, wizards, kingdoms and empires traipsing around all across it. Anchorômé, perhaps, or Aurune, or maybe the Land of Flying Monkeys or the Unknown Lands west of Maztica.

What other Prime worlds can we really talk about... hm. Eberron's not really my strong suit, but you've got Xen'drik out there, that's pretty unexplored. The strange land-bite south of it, perhaps? On Krynn I doubt one would be needed, but I'd say the outer isles around Adlatum would be suitable.

What's inside? Very few eladrin, I'd wager, since they're not to interact with mortals on the Prime as a general rule and might get antsy about having to stay shut up in a hidden base with only other celestials for company. No asuras. Guardinals and archons, I would expect, with a couple of lower-end angels along, and allied celestial beasts.

Also, kinda thinking about doing a Hindu inspired planar campaign but not sure how to structure it. Maybe kick out the transitive planes and replace them with a modified (see: neutral) beastlands? Keep Celestia and the nine hells but cut the latter down to seven? Any suggestions welcome. Understood if you don't want to touch this one.

That cosmology is not really my strong suit, sadly.

Thanks a lot! Vorr and bonespear will come handy. I already knew about shrieking terrors, didn't mention them since they're pretty much implied by vargouilles.

Let me know if you need any more, I can homebrew some up. My homebrew muscle is getting rusty from disuse.

Snowbluff

2015-07-01, 08:16 PM

Afroakuma, I put sweaters on enough cats in Sigil to get mazed. I escaped because I was part minotaur, but now the Lady of Pain won't return my calls. What do?

WalkingTheShade

2015-07-02, 04:54 AM

Afroakuma, I put sweaters on enough cats in Sigil to get mazed. I escaped because I was part minotaur, but now the Lady of Pain won't return my calls. What do?
Have you thought about writing down your emotions at this point? Try to put yourself into the shoes of this lady friend you are mentioning: how would you feel in her place? Maybe you should give her some space, and some time away from you. She might get in touch eventually. What, wrong thread?

Alea

2015-07-02, 07:40 AM

What other Prime worlds can we really talk about... hm. Eberron's not really my strong suit, but you've got Xen'drik out there, that's pretty unexplored. The strange land-bite south of it, perhaps?

Xen’drik is not only unexplored, but unexplorable due to magics moving things around constantly. Also, there is a far-northern continent, supposedly where the dwarves originally came from, that is so utterly locked down with cold and ice that no significant exploration of it have been made either.

Brookshw

2015-07-02, 08:03 AM

Oh, is it already time for another round of Let's Refer To One Of Fro's Least Favorite Books? Alright then. :smallyuk: In an act of appeasement I offer up these (https://www.facebook.com/maggiearmstrongart/photos_stream?ref=page_internal) paintings from a local artist that have a distinctly Far Realm / Abberation feel. Some of them at least.

Ugh, let's see... I would expect that if an Empyreal Citadel is not somewhere in the Great Glacier, then it's likely not on the macrocontinent at all - too many adventurers, wizards, kingdoms and empires traipsing around all across it. Anchorômé, perhaps, or Aurune, or maybe the Land of Flying Monkeys or the Unknown Lands west of Maztica.

What other Prime worlds can we really talk about... hm. Eberron's not really my strong suit, but you've got Xen'drik out there, that's pretty unexplored. The strange land-bite south of it, perhaps? On Krynn I doubt one would be needed, but I'd say the outer isles around Adlatum would be suitable.

What's inside? Very few eladrin, I'd wager, since they're not to interact with mortals on the Prime as a general rule and might get antsy about having to stay shut up in a hidden base with only other celestials for company. No asuras. Guardinals and archons, I would expect, with a couple of lower-end angels along, and allied celestial beasts. Sounds good. I had considered Athens but doesn't seem quite right, not enough of a demonic force to be countering. Aside, are the Empyreal Citadels one of the things you disliked from this source?

That cosmology is not really my strong suit, sadly. Fair enough. I can't recall having seen much detail on it within the context of D&D in any of the older sources but it's been a while since I've looked.

I put sweaters on enough cats in Sigil to get mazed. Well that's your mistake right there, her Serenity is not some old crazy cat lady. Try sweaters for penguins (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/11/australias-oldest-man-sweaters-penguins-oil_n_6660962.html) next time (sweaters for penguins: for when formal wear just won't do).

afroakuma

2015-07-02, 06:55 PM

Aside, are the Empyreal Citadels one of the things you disliked from this source?

They're not particularly good, but miles better than the worst of it.

Malimar

2015-07-03, 06:52 PM

An NPC in the Spelljammer game I'm running mentioned something as being "from beyond the phlogiston". I'm assuming that this NPC was simply misinformed about the nature of wildspace the phlogiston, or at best was waxing poetical about describing something from beyond well-mapped, easily accessible by phlogiston flow, regions. But I want to make sure there's not a more literal interpretation I could be overlooking. So, probably a dumb question, but: wildspace the phlogiston just goes on forever, right? Doesn't have a border or an end?

enderlord99

2015-07-03, 07:49 PM

An NPC in the Spelljammer game I'm running mentioned something as being "from beyond the phlogiston". I'm assuming that this NPC was simply misinformed about the nature of wildspace, or at best was waxing poetical about describing something from beyond well-mapped, easily accessible by phlogiston flow, regions. But I want to make sure there's not a more literal interpretation I could be overlooking. So, probably a dumb question, but: wildspace just goes on forever, right? Doesn't have a border or an end?

Wildspace is the inside of a Crystal Sphere whereas Phlogiston is the outside; the latter is endless, the former isn't.

Malimar

2015-07-03, 08:04 PM

Wildspace is the inside of a Crystal Sphere whereas Phlogiston is the outside; the latter is endless, the former isn't.

Wait, how did I miss that? Jeez, I guess I didn't do my reading carefully enough, somehow I thought they were synonyms (or, more precisely, that wildspace was the place, phlogiston was the substance). Inept Malimar is inept.

Now I know!

Bad Wolf

2015-07-03, 08:11 PM

Who (or what) exactly is Ulgurshek? I came across it in Fiendish Codex I, and it made me curious. All it says is that it's "An acient entity created before the formation of the Great Wheel."

enderlord99

2015-07-03, 08:59 PM

Who (or what) exactly is Ulgurshek? I came across it in Fiendish Codex I, and it made me curious. All it says is that it's "An acient entity created before the formation of the Great Wheel."

Sounds like a Draeden to me.

Brookshw

2015-07-03, 09:01 PM

Sounds like a Draeden to me.

I have this strange sense, almost as if we covered this, a page ago :smalltongue:

enderlord99

2015-07-03, 09:29 PM

I have this strange sense, almost as if we covered this, a page ago :smalltongue:

We probably did, I'm bad at remembering how long ago things were.

afroakuma

2015-07-03, 10:05 PM

An NPC in the Spelljammer game I'm running mentioned something as being "from beyond the phlogiston".

Poetic way of describing something from another plane. :smalltongue:

Buuuut more likely that NPC was performing autocraniorectal oratory, if you know what I mean.

Who (or what) exactly is Ulgurshek? I came across it in Fiendish Codex I, and it made me curious. All it says is that it's "An acient entity created before the formation of the Great Wheel."

Ulgurshek is a draeden, an incalculably ancient being from a race that despises elemental matter.

Malimar

2015-07-03, 10:22 PM

Poetic way of describing something from another plane. :smalltongue:

Buuuut more likely that NPC was performing autocraniorectal oratory, if you know what I mean.

Hehe, as I suspected. Thanks!

Naanomi

2015-07-04, 01:25 AM

You mentioned that you don't think Binding would work close to the spire... Did you mean the process of binding, accessing the supernatural abilities, or both?

Along the same lines; vestiges seem to 'exist' in some sense in the cosmos; does their nebulous state extend to other realities?

Meaning... Can I bind a vestige deep out in the Far Realm?

Or when I trek to another Cosmology via the Shadow Plane?

How about... Are Vestiges temporally linear, in that if I traveled back in time to 'before' the Vestige became a Vestige can I still bind it?

If 'no' to any of the above, what would happen if I went to (far realm/alternate cosmology/distant past) with a Vestige already bound?

WalkingTheShade

2015-07-04, 08:33 AM

Meaning... Can I bind a vestige deep out in the Far Realm?
In the Far Realm, vestige binds YOU!

From what I understand, the Far Realm is not a place. It's the negation of the reality. Being "deep" in it means being far removed from reality itself. Subject, action, cause and consequence disappear. Notions such as "I", "vestige" or "bind" have long stopped having any relevance to the situation, if indeed a situation there still is.

atemu1234

2015-07-04, 10:53 AM

In the Far Realm, vestige binds YOU!

From what I understand, the Far Realm is not a place. It's the negation of the reality. Being "deep" in it means being far removed from reality itself. Subject, action, cause and consequence disappear. Notions such as "I", "vestige" or "bind" have long stopped having any relevance to the situation, if indeed a situation there still is.

Considering that you can't even perceive the far realm, as time has no meaning there, binding a vestige is moot.

afroakuma

2015-07-04, 03:37 PM

You mentioned that you don't think Binding would work close to the spire... Did you mean the process of binding, accessing the supernatural abilities, or both?

Both. Nothing supernatural functions close to the Spire.

Along the same lines; vestiges seem to 'exist' in some sense in the cosmos; does their nebulous state extend to other realities?

Ask your DM. :smalltongue:

Naanomi

2015-07-04, 06:44 PM

Ask your DM. :smalltongue:
Spectacularly useful from the lore master of the cosmos.

I'll take it to mean 'vestiges are a strange and unquantifiable agency in 'existence', their interactions with similarly 'off' places is unknown and probably a bit unpredictable, but you probably shouldn't try it.'

afroakuma

2015-07-04, 07:33 PM

Spectacularly useful from the lore master of the cosmos.

Excuse me? Was that snark? :smallannoyed:

Fine, you want your bloody answers, I'll give you your bloody answers.

Meaning... Can I bind a vestige deep out in the Far Realm?

Theoretically, no.

Or when I trek to another Cosmology via the Shadow Plane?

Theoretically, no.

How about... Are Vestiges temporally linear, in that if I traveled back in time to 'before' the Vestige became a Vestige can I still bind it?

The temporal flow of the Near Realm is unknown. It would not be unreasonable to assume that certain entities would have discerned and studied their vestigial state while alive, were that knowledge available to acquire during their lifetimes, so I would assume that a vestige is not available in the timeline while it still has a foothold in the cosmos.

If 'no' to any of the above, what would happen if I went to (far realm/alternate cosmology/distant past) with a Vestige already bound?

Nothing relevant, you're carrying part of their essence wrapped up in you. You wouldn't be able to engage in a new bind with that vestige nor any other, and once that binding ran its course you'd no longer have access to those powers.

Naanomi

2015-07-04, 07:54 PM

Excuse me? Was that snark?
it was a small amount of snark, I just rarely see you at least not being speculative.

Were The 'Old Ones' that guided the creation of the current cosmology (as mentioned in your great 'Creation of the Prime story') involved in other 'creative events' as well? Alternative Cosmologies or the existence before the current one? Or are their attentions pretty much bound to this creation, and other ones are someone else's doing?

afroakuma

2015-07-05, 01:49 PM

it was a small amount of snark, I just rarely see you at least not being speculative.

If I don't give a speculative answer it means I don't want to. Don't goad me into it.

Were The 'Old Ones' that guided the creation of the current cosmology (as mentioned in your great 'Creation of the Prime story') involved in other 'creative events' as well?

Presumably.

Mr Adventurer

2015-07-05, 02:35 PM

Are the Outer Planes and their inhabitants made of elemental matter?

WalkingTheShade

2015-07-05, 04:42 PM

Excluding any act of delibarate betrayal, material or philosophical, what would be the consequences of leaving the various sigilian factions?

By the book, your previous faction actively looks for you and tries to kill you. Flavor-wise, however, I wouldn't think every faction would react this way
I guess the Mercykillers, the Doomguard and the Harmonium would certainly do it.
Leaving the Revolutionnary League, even if the prior member's cell were OK with it, would probably make them open game for any other, more fanatic, cell wanting to build a rep by "disposing" of a traitor to the cause.
I don't see the Transcendental Order going after someone, if certain that person is not a spy. If the person is acting on instinct and earnestly feels his path leads them away from the Order...
As for the Xaositects, they might not even realize your not there anymore, or presume you'll be back eventually, whatever, oowww, look at the ooze puddle, isn't it cute? Pigeon tart!
The Bleak Cabal must have, on a regular basis, to deal with barmies suddenly believing they're a golden lord of Sigil or some hardhead paladin. They might object on a barmy trying to give meaning to anything by leaving, but wouldn't enforcing their absurdism be antithetical to its philosophy? At least, doing it entails caring about someone leaving, which doesn't make any more sense than anything else.
Same for the Dustmen.
What about a member of the Society of Sensation who wants to experience what it's like to reject their faction and be free of it?
Would the Believers of the Source hold someone back, if proven that staying somehow impedes their growth?

Same general question, but if the ex-member leaves to join another faction.

Naanomi

2015-07-06, 09:05 AM

I was reading some Spelljammer stuff and it talked about the possibility of nested crystal spheres one within another.

1) any known examples of this actually taking place?

2) would it make Spelljamning harder to use to get to the 'bottom layer' sphere?

3) what would it look like if your home world was in such a system but not at the bottom layer? Just one star/planet in the sky happens to actually be another crystal sphere? The sun you orbit is actually the other crystal sphere? Or are the distances involved so big that even if you were 'sandwiched' between two walls of two spheres not far off in size from eachother, you wouldn't really notice?

Adslahnit

2015-07-06, 02:52 PM

Taking into account both personal power and the sway they have over their people, how much overall clout and influence across the Outer Planes does the "Faerie Queen" Morwel of the Court of Stars wield in comparison to the other Faerie Queen, Titania of the Seelie Court?

What about in terms of overall influence across the multiverse as a whole?

Lurkmoar

2015-07-06, 07:40 PM

Preincarnate souls come from the Positive Material Plane. They then migrate toward the Prime Material Plane (or where ever they're needed). At death, they migrate to the realms of their patrons they worshipped in life or towards an Outer Plane that links to their alignment (barring special cases such as Forgotten Realms and Athas). Eventually the soul joins with the plane, gets closer to their deity or become an exemplar.

Questions:

1. Is the above correct in my recounting?

2. Barring the spell Reincarnate, do souls ever naturally reincarnate? Do the souls in their afterlife just poof out of existence when a Reincarnate spell is cast?

3. Where do the Rilmani increase their numbers from? Breeding or Petitioners in the Outlands?

This is a speculative question, so feel free to disregard. Does the Ordial Plane exist in afrocannon?

Tzardok

2015-07-07, 02:42 AM

2. Barring the spell Reincarnate, do souls ever naturally reincarnate? Do the souls in their afterlife just poof out of existence when a Reincarnate spell is cast?

For the second part, I would think that Reincarnated souls would act exactly like souls who are resurected in a different way. For the first part, reincarnation is part of the Hindu deities' dogma, who exist in the great wheel, and their is a gear in Mechanus called Samsara, where a deity watchs the flow of reincarnation, so yes.

3. Where do the Rilmani increase their numbers from? Breeding or Petitioners in the Outlands?

This is a speculative question, so feel free to disregard. Does the Ordial Plane exist in afrocannon?

The Rilmani Question has been answered a few threads befor. IIRC the answer was both.
The Ordial Plane is among the planes afro mentions in the first post of every thread as the planes he answers questions for, so yes.

enderlord99

2015-07-08, 01:00 PM

Does Melifleur have jurisdiction over the undead creatures known as Sangrolu?

afroakuma

2015-07-08, 08:32 PM

Are the Outer Planes and their inhabitants made of elemental matter?

Ehh... yes and no.

Excluding any act of delibarate betrayal, material or philosophical, what would be the consequences of leaving the various sigilian factions?

Your conjectures seem fairly on point.

I was reading some Spelljammer stuff and it talked about the possibility of nested crystal spheres one within another.

1) any known examples of this actually taking place?

None come to mind. The concept arises from a sidebar on exotic solar system ideas.

2) would it make Spelljamning harder to use to get to the 'bottom layer' sphere?

Certainly plausible that there would be far fewer natural portals so deep down.

are the distances involved so big that even if you were 'sandwiched' between two walls of two spheres not far off in size from eachother, you wouldn't really notice?

I would expect so, although by definition as an exotic system we don't know.

Taking into account both personal power and the sway they have over their people, how much overall clout and influence across the Outer Planes does the "Faerie Queen" Morwel of the Court of Stars wield in comparison to the other Faerie Queen, Titania of the Seelie Court?

Exemplar ruler > individual deity. Titania is more influential than many, perhaps, and Morwel less than many, but that's the useful rule of thumb.

Preincarnate souls come from the Positive Material Plane. They then migrate toward the Prime Material Plane (or where ever they're needed). At death, they migrate to the realms of their patrons they worshipped in life or towards an Outer Plane that links to their alignment (barring special cases such as Forgotten Realms and Athas). Eventually the soul joins with the plane, gets closer to their deity or become an exemplar.

Questions:

1. Is the above correct in my recounting?

Looks to be.

2. Barring the spell Reincarnate, do souls ever naturally reincarnate? Do the souls in their afterlife just poof out of existence when a Reincarnate spell is cast?

It's believed that in some spheres and under some pantheons, reincarnation takes place. The Indian pantheon, for instance. A reincarnate spell is no different from resurrection - you were there, now you're here.

3. Where do the Rilmani increase their numbers from? Breeding or Petitioners in the Outlands?

Exemplars arise from souls. Some castes might breed, but I'd imagine most of them aren't into it.

This is a speculative question, so feel free to disregard. Does the Ordial Plane exist in afrocannon?

It does.

Does Melifleur have jurisdiction over the undead creatures known as Sangrolu?

I have found no evidence that such a creature exists in canon. If you have a primary source citation, I'll take a look (read: not the GitP forum post or anything sourcing it).

afroakuma

2015-07-10, 09:22 PM

Quick Impromptu Poll

I'm going to be fleshing out some new elemental denizens. Which Elemental Plane would you all like to see covered first? Choices are the classics - Air, Earth, Fire or Water.

Jurai

2015-07-10, 09:28 PM

FIRE! Heh, heh, heh, FIRE!

Forrestfire

2015-07-10, 09:53 PM

Quick Impromptu Poll

I'm going to be fleshing out some new elemental denizens. Which Elemental Plane would you all like to see covered first? Choices are the classics - Air, Earth, Fire or Water.

I want to see earth elementals, myself.

Lurkmoar

2015-07-10, 10:15 PM

Fire.

Also, were any Elemental, Paraelemental or Quasielemental creatures not ported over to 3e from 2e? I tried looking through the srd for a Darklight and couldn't find it...

afroakuma

2015-07-10, 10:29 PM

Also, were any Elemental, Paraelemental or Quasielemental creatures not ported over to 3e from 2e? I tried looking through the srd for a Darklight and couldn't find it...

I would say the majority were not.

atemu1234

2015-07-10, 11:25 PM

Fire.

Also, were any Elemental, Paraelemental or Quasielemental creatures not ported over to 3e from 2e? I tried looking through the srd for a Darklight and couldn't find it...

I second fire, though I'm partial to air as well.

Super Evil User

2015-07-11, 03:47 AM

WalkingTheShade

2015-07-11, 05:56 AM

Temotei

2015-07-11, 06:24 AM

I vote for air.

Fable Wright

2015-07-11, 06:54 AM

Asking for a friend: is there any evidence that the Silver Flame is right? Do devout Silver Flame worshipers still wind up in Dolurrh with everyone else, do they really join the Silver Flame or is it left ambiguous?

Silver Flame worshippers do objectively spend time in Dollurh. Their faith does not deny that, though, IIRC. My take has always been that they claim as the devouts' souls fade in Dollurh, they are merging with the flame rather than fading into oblivion.

Objectively speaking, in Eberron, if your soul is not somehow bound to the material plane, it goes to Dollurh. No religion denies this. They all try to explain what happens after your soul spends too much time in Dollurh, but none deny that time is spent there.

Super Evil User

2015-07-11, 07:37 AM

Oooooooooh. That explains the time-cap on Resurrection spells...

Eberron is really cool.

Tzardok

2015-07-11, 07:41 AM

NeoPhoenix0

2015-07-11, 08:28 AM

gotta be air

pwykersotz

2015-07-11, 10:24 AM

I'm torn between Fire and Earth. I think I'll vote Earth first (we'll pave the other planes later).

afroakuma

2015-07-11, 02:52 PM

Looks like Fire...

Minnakht

2015-07-11, 03:36 PM

Sure, I'll tiebreak to Fire. Not too keen on Earth. Earth's easy to build with.

hold on, I'm posting on this thread! I've read a fair part of the previous ones, but I probably missed a lot, so I don't know if this has been asked before...

How large, for a lack of better term, is Inevitable activity? Some online sources or other tell me that Neumannus doesn't have much of a diameter, so its area is pretty small (just a few soccer fields). That doesn't sound like much space to make/keep/supervise Inevitables at, not to mention that part of the place is apparently used for some backdoor touchstone business or something. (which, IIRC, was deemed really stupid.)

In the same vein, if Mechanus is infinite gears in all directions but Regulus is 64 gears with a population of several million modrons on it, does anything interesting occupy some further reaches of Mechanus? It just seems like every other plane would be more uniformly inhabited (or uninhabited) where possible.

Mr Adventurer

2015-07-11, 08:01 PM

Ehh... yes and no.

Is that "yes for some, no for others", or "both yes and no for all", or what?

Adslahnit

2015-07-12, 06:34 AM

1. If the baatezu of the Rabble known as Armaros, Resolver of Enchantments, is a stronger spellcaster than Asmodeus and could reasonably challenge Asmodeus and win (at least according to Dragon #91), would that not make Armaros the single most powerful spellcaster in the multiverse?

2. Page 38 of the Guide to the Astral Plane says, "The Silver Void is almost completely free of divine presence. The powers, being among the most ancient of the multiverse's inhabitants, established their realms in a time when the Astral was not a plane that anyone dwelled on. The vast majority of them still feel the same way. Additionally, most powers find it disturbing to spend much time around the dead gods themselves. They want no reminder of what could happen to them should things go terribly wrong."

However, is there anything stopping a power from building a divine realm in the Astral Plane anyway, possibly to reap the benefits of not having their priests' spellcasting power diminish across the planes?

Brookshw

2015-07-12, 10:08 AM

If voting hasn't closed: air.

Tzardok

2015-07-12, 11:41 AM

However, is there anything stopping a power from building a divine realm in the Astral Plane anyway, possibly to reap the benefits of not having their priests' spellcasting power diminish across the planes?

At least one official deity in 3.5 has its realm on the Astral Plane: Aulasha, the librarian, from Races of Destiny. She is a deitiy of the illumians that are presented in the book as a new race. Demigoddess of knowledge and grief.

afroakuma

2015-07-12, 11:24 PM

How large, for a lack of better term, is Inevitable activity? Some online sources or other tell me that Neumannus doesn't have much of a diameter, so its area is pretty small (just a few soccer fields). That doesn't sound like much space to make/keep/supervise Inevitables at, not to mention that part of the place is apparently used for some backdoor touchstone business or something. (which, IIRC, was deemed really stupid.)

Neumannus doesn't have to be too vast; most Inevitables are out on jobs, after all, and they have been making them for a long long time. That said, the scope of inevitable activity is relatively limited. Kolyaruts don't just show up to enforce grain shipping contracts day in and day out.

In the same vein, if Mechanus is infinite gears in all directions but Regulus is 64 gears with a population of several million modrons on it, does anything interesting occupy some further reaches of Mechanus? It just seems like every other plane would be more uniformly inhabited (or uninhabited) where possible.

Plenty of unusual entities inhabit the infinite reaches of every plane. Modrons are unusual in that the total number of possible modrons is orders of magnitude beyond the total number of modrons actually in existence at any given time.

1. If the baatezu of the Rabble known as Armaros, Resolver of Enchantments, is a stronger spellcaster than Asmodeus and could reasonably challenge Asmodeus and win (at least according to Dragon #91), would that not make Armaros the single most powerful spellcaster in the multiverse?

No. Armaros with the resources of an archdevil would be a competent threat to Asmodeus, but that doesn't make him the most powerful spellcaster in the multiverse. The Lord Below would be amused to find himself categorized as a mere spellcaster.

2. Page 38 of the Guide to the Astral Plane says, "The Silver Void is almost completely free of divine presence. The powers, being among the most ancient of the multiverse's inhabitants, established their realms in a time when the Astral was not a plane that anyone dwelled on. The vast majority of them still feel the same way. Additionally, most powers find it disturbing to spend much time around the dead gods themselves. They want no reminder of what could happen to them should things go terribly wrong."

However, is there anything stopping a power from building a divine realm in the Astral Plane anyway, possibly to reap the benefits of not having their priests' spellcasting power diminish across the planes?

The problem with setting up shop in the Astral is that you have no support and no power base, and your worshipers can't come visit your realm without imperiling their silver cords. There's also the fact that it's the Astral Plane - investing oneself there may have unpredictable and unforeseen consequences of a most unfortunate nature.