Horde Mechanics

[Millface]

Am I missing something in the books that explains the mechanics for something like, for example, a player falling into a pit housing 30 hungry zombies? Is there a maximum that can surround and attack documented somewhere, and any sort of advantages for being vastly outnumbered?

Logically speaking they're going to jump on you, these are high level characters so there is a chance for survival, but I'm not sure how to go about rolling it. Strength checks to get up from prone? Bonuses to the zombies attacks? (Even with advantage +3 attacks aren't hitting very often at all)

I feel like even the most potent adventurer would be boned here, but from what I can find in the books they'd just slowly burn through the mobs, constantly being missed, occasionally being scratched, but otherwise easy peasy. That seems... wrong. Advice appreciated!

[Ninja_Prawn]

There are mass combat rules towards the end of the DMG (page 250, under 'Handling Mobs') but I find them a little... uninspiring.

If I were running this, I'd probably do it as a 'skill challenge'. Maybe have a rough kill count so like, every time the fighter attacks, four zombies die. Fireball kills ten. Etc. If they kill more than 100 zombies, the horde gets a bit thinner. Lots of athletics and acrobatics checks, probably some set-pieces like locked doors, zombies coming up out of the sewers etc.

[Millface]

There are mass combat rules towards the end of the DMG but I find them a little... uninspiring.

If I were running this, I'd probably do it as a 'skill challenge'. Maybe have a rough kill count so like, every time the fighter attacks, four zombies die. Fireball kills ten. Etc. If they kill more than 100 zombies, the horde gets a bit thinner. Lots of athletics and acrobatics checks, probably some set-pieces like locked doors, zombies coming up out of the sewers etc.

Uninspired is right, yikes. I found the section and it's pretty lazy. The real question is, in a cramped area, how many zombies does it take to pile on top of you before you just can't get up anymore. Before I make it seem like I'm really trying to kill my characters, this is actually for our Necromancer.

He keeps his undead horde in a demiplane, and his idea is to open it up under baddies feet, Dex save or they fall into a 30 foot room filled with zombies and a couple of Wights. They would immediately just all jump and pile onto you, making somatic components impossible. *Shrugs* Seems like instant death to me. No matter how strong you are you just can't lift a dog pile of bodies. I just wish this was covered somewhere.


Edit: Your scenario of a zombie street horde sound uber fun though, I might have to use that at some point :-)

[whibla]

Before I make it seem like I'm really trying to kill my characters, this is actually for our Necromancer. He keeps his undead horde in a demiplane, and his idea is to open it up under baddies feet, Dex save or they fall into a 30 foot room filled with zombies and a couple of Wights. They would immediately just all jump and pile onto you, making somatic components impossible. *Shrugs* Seems like instant death to me. No matter how strong you are you just can't lift a dog pile of bodies. I just wish this was covered somewhere.

Yeah it does sound nasty, but how effective it actually is might depend on what DC you're setting the Dexterity save* at, whether the undead win initiative, and a ton of indeterminate factors related to who / what falls in.

First off, Demiplane is an 8th level spell, which presumably means the baddies (plural? you mean one creature per casting which is almost synonymous with once per day) it's worth using it on are not exactly your run of the mill monsters...

...hmm, I was about to go off on a tangent about all the ways it wouldn't work, all the things that could be done to avoid it, etc. then realised that's not what you're asking. I guess, slightly on topic, bear in mind that anyone worth using this tactic on is not your average Joe, and zombies are not the brightest of sparks, nor do they have a lot of health. Watch any martial arts crowd fight scene (one that comes to mind is the fight in the toilets in prison in "The Raid 2") to realise that one guy can do an awful lot of ducking and diving, not to mention damage, even when heavily outnumbered.

Hats off to your player for thinking of the tactic, but I'd be suprised if it did little more than inconvience the majority of creatures your party is likely to be facing at that level.

*wrt the Dex save, I hope you're not setting the DC to 8 + 6 (Proficiency) + 5 (probably, for Stat modifier) = 19. Demiplane doesn't normally give a saving throw, so the rules given on pg. 205 of the PHB do not apply.

[rhouck]

Is there a maximum that can surround and attack documented somewhere, and any sort of advantages for being vastly outnumbered?

My understanding was that it is based on creature size, see page 249 of the DMG, and also 251. Assuming squares and not hexes, then a S/M creature can only be attacked by 8 creatures at a time (more if someone has reach), a Large creature by 12, etc.

Your "dog pile" scenario obviously complicates that, as those rules assume creatures are not sharing spaces.

As for advantages, I would a page from the Flanking rules and give them all advantage (on ability checks and attacks). Or just rule as Prone and/or Restrained (assuming one applies), which also gives the victim disadvantage. If you really wanted to get nasty then you could rule the dog pile as the equivalent of the Paralyzed condition, so every attack is advantage AND a critical hit if it hits.

As for never hitting, I wouldn't be so sure. Assuming AC20, +3 to hit with Advantage would still hit ~36% of the time. That's not insubstantial and part of how bounded accuracy keeps those mobs relevant (versus old editions where they would only have a 5% chance). If 8 zombies can attack per round, then that's 11-12 damage per round. Not a lot, but any class without AoE is likely only able to kill 2-3 per round. They'll still likely survive, but will take a decent amount of damage in the 10 rounds it takes to kill them all. Keep in mind that zombies are some of the weakest enemies available -- even in 5e a high level character should be able to slaughter hordes of them in true Conan-style :smallcool:.

If the victim has access to spells like Dimension Door or Misty Step (Verbal only component), then they will no trouble getting away and nuking them all into oblivion.

tl;dr not instant death and don't think it should be (for a high level character/enemy)

[CNagy]

Well, first off past a certain number the size of the horde around you only changes how long you are in the situation and how likely you are to die. I play on hex-maps, so that allows for the crush of zombies (or whatever) to only get 6 pairs of hands on you at a time.

I've only got 2 types of hordes: 5' and 10' deep. 5' deep means you are completely surrounded. The horde attacks all at the same time in the initiative count, and all of them are unarmed. If 2 or more hit, you've got a DC 10 or 15 Athletics or Acrobatics skill check to stay on your feet. If you fail, you both go down and are grappled. On your turn, if you manage to kill any one of the horde holding you down (and I deduct hit points from the lowest total first), you are no longer grappled (because your movement started at 0 for your turn, it's still at zero when you free yourself.) The still animate horde will all attack you on their turn (with advantage, since you are still prone.) If nothing steps into the vacated space left by one of your now-dead attackers, we're back to combat as usual.

A 10' horde just means that every hex within 10' of you is filled with enemies. The difference is that if 2 or more of the horde hit you, then you are rolling that skill check with disadvantage. If you kill one of the horde, another from the second rank fills its space immediately. If you disperse the horde enough that there are no longer enemies in every space within 10', it's back to the 5' deep horde.

As homebrew it's under constant revision, but I've used it a few times now and it's made for some tense rounds of combat following a trap or an ambush. It puts players in danger but it doesn't outright kill them or cripple their ability to defend themselves. It may actually be too easy on them, but I'll need to see it in action a few more times.

[Millface]

Yeah it does sound nasty, but how effective it actually is might depend on what DC you're setting the Dexterity save* at, whether the undead win initiative, and a ton of indeterminate factors related to who / what falls in.

First off, Demiplane is an 8th level spell, which presumably means the baddies (plural? you mean one creature per casting which is almost synonymous with once per day) it's worth using it on are not exactly your run of the mill monsters...

...hmm, I was about to go off on a tangent about all the ways it wouldn't work, all the things that could be done to avoid it, etc. then realised that's not what you're asking. I guess, slightly on topic, bear in mind that anyone worth using this tactic on is not your average Joe, and zombies are not the brightest of sparks, nor do they have a lot of health. Watch any martial arts crowd fight scene (one that comes to mind is the fight in the toilets in prison in "The Raid 2") to realise that one guy can do an awful lot of ducking and diving, not to mention damage, even when heavily outnumbered.

Hats off to your player for thinking of the tactic, but I'd be suprised if it did little more than inconvience the majority of creatures your party is likely to be facing at that level.

*wrt the Dex save, I hope you're not setting the DC to 8 + 6 (Proficiency) + 5 (probably, for Stat modifier) = 19. Demiplane doesn't normally give a saving throw, so the rules given on pg. 205 of the PHB do not apply.

These are all good thoughts, the DC for dodging the demiplane door I have set as the same as it is for the fissure feature on Talisman of Ultimate Evil/Pure Good (17), as the effects seem pretty similar. Its easy to dodge, but its not a wasted cast for the Necro even if he doesn't get the ideal, since at worst he still has minions climbing out of the demiplane to help in the battle. If you do fall in though (having failed the Dex check) you fall in prone. This is a situation where you're standing in a spot, and then instantly there is no longer ground there, I don't care who you are, that's going to be surprising. The Dex check is more to gauge your instant reflexes, if you fail its because your brain took too long to register what was happening to you.


These are all really helpful and useful ideas guys, thanks! The higher level play in 5e lends itself to alot of good player ideas that are wide open to DM interpretation. He essentially wanted to jerry rig an 8th level spell into a "Dex save or die" scenario for medium or smaller creatures, barring a hugely lucky concentration check to planeshift out. Misty Stepping isn't going to get you out of the horde, as it fills almost the entire space of the plane and he's going to close the door on you the second you fall in. Survival is possible, but not likely, and if you don't have planar travel options you're still stuck in the demiplane, these suggestions will help me figure out how many Zombies he loses to get the job done, though. :-)

[ImSAMazing]

Am I missing something in the books that explains the mechanics for something like, for example, a player falling into a pit housing 30 hungry zombies? Is there a maximum that can surround and attack documented somewhere, and any sort of advantages for being vastly outnumbered?

Logically speaking they're going to jump on you, these are high level characters so there is a chance for survival, but I'm not sure how to go about rolling it. Strength checks to get up from prone? Bonuses to the zombies attacks? (Even with advantage +3 attacks aren't hitting very often at all)

I feel like even the most potent adventurer would be boned here, but from what I can find in the books they'd just slowly burn through the mobs, constantly being missed, occasionally being scratched, but otherwise easy peasy. That seems... wrong. Advice appreciated!

Well, when they fall down, they at first get falling damage, which equals 1d6*(amount of feet / 10) to a maximum of 20d6. After that, use the Hex pattern of the DMG to let the players get surrounded, each player gets like 6 zombies around him. Everytime he kills 1, that zombie gets replaced as long as there are enough zombies available. I think that is the right way to rule it.

[rhouck]

Also consider the "Cleaving Through Creatures" rule on p.272 of the DMG, as this seems like an apt circumstance for its application.

[whibla]

At the risk of sideswiping the thread, I confess some of what you posted confused me...


... the DC for dodging the demiplane door I have set as the same as it is for the fissure feature on Talisman of Ultimate Evil/Pure Good (17), as the effects seem pretty similar.

The DC for the talismans is actually 20, but, to my mind there's a 'slight' difference, namely that the talismans are legendary items - using a charge of one of them is equivalent to using a 9th level spell, one specifically designed to erase someone of an opposed alignment from existence, completely. There's also the difference between a "shadowy door ... large enough to allow medium creatures to pass though unhindered" (to my mind 3' x 6' would seem to fit the bill, much like a regular door in the real world) and a "flaming fissure" (alas, no scale is given, but given that previous editions listed these items as artifacts, and mentioned that the fissure reached all the way to the center of the earth, something slightly larger than doorway sized is indicated).


Its easy to dodge...

I'm pretty sure that with no proficiency bonus, and a slightly better than average dex, let's assume 14 or 15, calling for a DC 17 save will result in 7 in 10 people falling into that hole. Not what I'd term an easy save.

If it were me (I'm a bit mean like this) I'd call for a Dex saving throw and adjudicate as follows:

less than 10: creature falls into the demiplane, suffers damage from the 30' fall, and almost certainly lands prone.
between 10 and 14: creature falls into the doorway, catching itself on the edges, and is suspended above the 30' drop.
15 or more: creatures steps nimbly to the side as the doorway opens.

Any creature that is hanging can use their action to make a Strength (Athletics) check to pull themselves to safety: Less than 5 they fall, 5-9 they hang on, 10 or more they pull themselves to safety, ending up prone next to the doorway. Another creature can use their action to assist in pulling them up, guaranteeing a success, or a creature can attempt to push the hanging person in, opposed checks, with advantage to the person doing the pushing.

Granted, this suggestion makes it far easier to avoid falling into your necromancer's room of certain death, but then he's trying to use a spell for a purpose for which it was not designed. I'm not sure I'd be inclined to 'overpower' its destructive potential, simply because it's an 8th level spell.


...but its not a wasted cast for the Necro even if he doesn't get the ideal, since at worst he still has minions climbing out of the demiplane to help in the battle.

How? The demiplane is a 30' cube. Are these undead part of a circus act? Do they make a zombie pyramid to get up to the doorway, then the top one drops a rope for its undead buddies to climb up? :smallwink:


If you do fall in though (having failed the Dex check) you fall in prone. This is a situation where you're standing in a spot, and then instantly there is no longer ground there, I don't care who you are, that's going to be surprising. The Dex check is more to gauge your instant reflexes, if you fail its because your brain took too long to register what was happening to you.

Yeah, I was never disputing the idea of a dex saving throw, just perhaps the magnitude of it.


He essentially wanted to jerry rig an 8th level spell into a "Dex save or die" scenario for medium or smaller creatures, barring a hugely lucky concentration check to planeshift out. Misty Stepping isn't going to get you out of the horde, as it fills almost the entire space of the plane

Um, what? Just how many undead does he have in there? At the risk of repeating myself, a Demiplane is a 30' cube. So, 36 medium sized undead can stand upright, on the floor, in it (assuming combat spacing, no squeezing, packing, whathaveyou), with 20'+ of headroom above them


and he's going to close the door on you the second you fall in.

And, how is he doing this? The spell lasts for an hour, and isn't concentration based.

Sorry, to go all pointed questioning on you. I realise it's way off what you were originally asking, just... it got me thinking and wondering...

Of course, I have been assuming that the door opens so that the targeted creature drops 30 feet to the floor. If, instead, they merely drop prone onto the floor of the demiplane directly in front of the doorway then I'm not sure why they can't simply 'crawl' back out of said doorway, assuming they act before the undead.

[Millface]

I'm actually glad you sidetracked it a little bit, these are all good suggestions and questions that I had yet to ask or brings up things I hadn't noticed, overall very informative and appreciated!

The biggest oversight on my part was the assumption that you could close the door at any time, but reading closer it doesn't say anything about being able to do that, thanks for pointing that out!

I'm thinking, with all this information he'll just go back to using the demiplane as an inconspicuous way to store his minions. (To answer one of your questions, he has 2 wights under his control via create undead, who each have 12 of their own zombies, and he has 11 of his own, so 37 in total) but you can't exactly stroll around Waterdeep with that kind of entourage.

For horde mechanics you guys answered my questions/pointed me in the right direction, so thank you!