[3.5] StP Erudite, Is it possible to get 9th lvl spells Pre-Epic on its own?

[D4rkh0rus]

Is there any way for a StP Erudite to be able to learn 9th lvl Arcane spells before it reaches Epic levels (preferably at lvl 17) -Without- requiring an extra character (No epic Chirurgery Erudite)?

As in, some feat/power combo that allows a erudite to manifest a power as 1 lvl higher than normal.

Essentially, is there any Earth spell/Sanctum Spell Equivalent for Manifesters?

[Extra Anchovies]

Don't they need an extra character to learn the arcane spells from?

Regardless, a scroll of Sanctum Wish can let an StP Erudite learn Wish as a 9th-level power (since the scroll would let you cast Wish as an 8th-level spell).

[D4rkh0rus]

Don't they need an extra character to learn the arcane spells from?

Regardless, a scroll of Sanctum Wish can let an StP Erudite learn Wish as a 9th-level power (since the scroll would let you cast Wish as an 8th-level spell).

Well, yes, But I mean without anything other than a wizard 20 (aka just provided a wizard capable of 9th lvl spells, and nothing else) for the -obtaining spells- part, I'm wondering if theres any trick to obtain 9th lvl spells without having to have an epic lvl erudite.

Also, I don't think they can learn spells from scrolls.

[Extra Anchovies]

Right, sorry, it'd been a while since I'd looked at Spell to Power.

Now that I read it again (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a), I'm not even finding the part where they have to learn arcane spells as if they were one level higher. Nevermind, found it in CPSi.

And again, Sanctum X is treated as one level lower than X normally is when the caster is outside their sanctum, so find a wizard with that feat and get spells from them. Unless by "a wizard 20" you mean "a wizard 20 who didn't use Sanctum Spell for early-entry cheese and thus doesn't have that feat".

[Pippin]

Sanctum Spell shouldn't work if you use it to "reduce" the level of the desired spell:


A sanctum spell has an effective spell level 1 higher than its normal level if cast in your sanctum (see below), but if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal.

The way I read this, you cast a 9th-level spell with an effective level of 10. Sanctum Spell doesn't change the level of the spell, but rather the level of all instances of the spell that you have cast. Erudites don't look at the level of the instances, but the level the spell has in your mind:


Once mental contact is achieved, the erudite becomes aware of all the powers [...]

In any case, an erudite can learn a discipline-only power only if it is up to 1 level lower than the highest level power he can manifest.

By the same token, I would say you can't use Sanctum Spell to "increase" the level of one of your powers either (with Magic Mantle shenanigans), because the description of the class feature doesn't seem to care about the effective level of instances you cast:


Once mental contact is achieved, the erudite becomes aware of all the powers stored in the power stone or all the powers known by the target up to the highest level of power the erudite knows himself (if the powers' host fails a Will save [DC 13 + erudite's Int bonus]).

Unless someone comes up with a brand new way to solve this, I would say you can't convert 9th-level spells without another epic, friendly Erudite.

[AvatarVecna]

Between having a wizard cohort and theurging between psionics and magic, I'm sure there's got to be a way to do it, but it would take somebody much more familiar with psionics than myself to figure it out.

[D4rkh0rus]

Im guessing there's no means to do this without an epic level erudite buddy.

[Psyren]

It takes a lot of wink-nudge reading and beaucoup de fromage, but if you consider "spells" to be a "discipline" (the way StP does), then combining the Favored Discipline and StP Erudite ACFs should do it, by letting you learn "powers" of that "discipline" at your level instead of one level behind.

Basically what WotC forgot is that Erudites get two bonus feats at 1st-level - the floating one, and Psicrystal Containment Affinity. This allows you to grab any two of their ACFs.

[Pippin]

It takes a lot of wink-nudge reading and beaucoup de fromage, but if you consider "spells" to be a "discipline" (the way StP does), then combining the Favored Discipline and StP Erudite ACFs should do it, by letting you learn "powers" of that "discipline" at your level instead of one level behind.
You mean by choosing Discipline: Spells? That might work, but...


Basically what WotC forgot is that Erudites get two bonus feats at 1st-level - the floating one, and Psicrystal Containment Affinity. This allows you to grab any two of their ACFs.
I've asked this like a week ago in the 3.5 Q&A thread. I don't think that works because, if WotC meant "either your bonus feat or Psicrystal Containment" by "bonus feat", they probably would have said so. Like they said "you don't gain a familiar" for the Wizard's ACF in PHB2. Chronos disagreed, though.

[Rubik]

I've asked this like a week ago in the 3.5 Q&A thread. I don't think that works because, if WotC meant "either your bonus feat or Psicrystal Containment" by "bonus feat", they probably would have said so. Like they said "you don't gain a familiar" for the Wizard's ACF in PHB2. Chronos disagreed, though.What they said was "bonus feat at first level." Erudite gives you two of those. People may try to argue RAI, but it's fruitless speculation and fairly groundless.

If your StP erudite takes a level in ardent with the substitute powers ACF, that allows you to swap out any powers on any of your mantles, and it also allows you to add a few in order to boost the number of powers in the mantle up to ten. Since you're a StP erudite, that means that any arcane spell (or any divine-turned-arcane spell) qualifies as a power, and thus can be inserted into any mantles you've got. So just find a mantle that fits the spells you want to learn (such as the Magic Mantle, wink-wink-nudge-nudge) and sub out all the powers on the mantle for the spells you want.

[Pippin]

What they said was "bonus feat at first level." Erudite gives you two of those. People may try to argue RAI, but it's fruitless speculation and fairly groundless.
That still doesn't work by RAW. You're talking about trading away a 1st-level bonus feat while the ACF offers to trade away your 1st-level bonus feat.


If your StP erudite takes a level in ardent with the substitute powers ACF, that allows you to swap out any powers on any of your mantles, and it also allows you to add a few in order to boost the number of powers in the mantle up to ten. Since you're a StP erudite, that means that any arcane spell (or any divine-turned-arcane spell) qualifies as a power, and thus can be inserted into any mantles you've got. So just find a mantle that fits the spells you want to learn (such as the Magic Mantle, wink-wink-nudge-nudge) and sub out all the powers on the mantle for the spells you want.
Hmm, assuming everything in your process is legal, that still looks extremely DM-dependent.

To me, the easiest way is being a Dragonwrought Kobold that has the Epic Spellcasting feat, and that has discovered at least 1 epic spell. But even this process assumes that the DM is lenient enough to agree that being a Dragonwrought Kobold negates the 24 rank requirement entirely, or is lenient enough to allow bloodlines.

:smallsigh:

[Rubik]

That still doesn't work by RAW. You're talking about trading away a 1st-level bonus feat while the ACF offers to trade away your 1st-level bonus feat.You gain a choosable 1st level bonus feat and Psicrystal Affinity as a 1st level bonus feat. 1 + 1 = ...?

[Psyren]

That still doesn't work by RAW. You're talking about trading away a 1st-level bonus feat while the ACF offers to trade away your 1st-level bonus feat.

Their both yours. It's not an NPC.

I might disagree on how Magic Mantle works, but the fact that Erudite gets two bonus feats at 1st-level is undeniable RAW.