Dire Weasels

[VoxRationis]

Dire weasels are common predators and tamed animals in one part of my campaign setting, and I was looking at the stats and couldn't find the answer to this question:

Is an attached weasel or the creature to which the weasel is attached considered to be grappling?

It says you can "remove an attached weasel through grappling" via pinning it, but that doesn't say what the state of the weasel or the weasel-ee is immediately after it attaches, before the weasel-ee does anything.

[Allanimal]

The dire weasel's attach ability does not say it explicitly, and neither does the normal weasel. The only other critter in the MM I with the ability called "attach" is the Stirge, which says when it attaches it is effectively grappling.

Still not clear cut, but I would say that yes, it is a grapple, and a successful check would yield a pin. But I am open to other evidence that is contrary to this.

[Uncle Pine]

I'd say that the target is not considered grappled and neither is the dire weasel. Although the latter loses its Dex bonus to AC, because Attach says so. This seems intended, as grappling is stated as an additional way to detach the dire weasel (the primary being to kill it).

[Bronk]

I'd say that the target is not considered grappled and neither is the dire weasel. Although the latter loses its Dex bonus to AC, because Attach says so. This seems intended, as grappling is stated as an additional way to detach the dire weasel (the primary being to kill it).

I agree... the rules for it are completely different. They only need to successfully bite, and there's no size limit to what they can attach to.

[VoxRationis]

I can see how the inclusion of some grapple-specific things (such as loss of Dexterity bonus) specifically would seem to imply that the others do not, but it would seem odd to me that one might take movement penalties, loss of Dex bonus to AC, etc. if a dire badger bit one and held on hard, but not if a dire weasel did the same thing. After all, in both cases, one has a mustelid of unusual size firmly attached to one's person. Hence why I'm asking. I was hoping there was a more unified ruling I was missing somewhere.

[Uncle Pine]

I can see how the inclusion of some grapple-specific things (such as loss of Dexterity bonus) specifically would seem to imply that the others do not, but it would seem odd to me that one might take movement penalties, loss of Dex bonus to AC, etc. if a dire badger bit one and held on hard, but not if a dire weasel did the same thing. After all, in both cases, one has a mustelid of unusual size firmly attached to one's person. Hence why I'm asking. I was hoping there was a more unified ruling I was missing somewhere.

Well, the rules say you get X so you clearly get X, but they don't say that you get Y so you clearly don't get Y.

[WeaselGuy]

one has a mustelid of unusual size firmly attached to one's person.


I like the MouS pun. WeaselGuy Approves.

Also, relevant to the conversation, I recently played as a Kobold Ranger with a Dire Weasel animal companion, utilizing the Attach ability to somewhat great extent. My DM ruled that since it doesn't say the weasel is grappling (even though they utilize similar verbage), then the weasel isn't grappling.

[VoxRationis]

So if a dire weasel is attached to a halfling wizard, the wizard can still run about at 20' movement rate, cast spells, etc., with no penalty?

[Allianis]

On a similar note, our party recently came up against these and came up with a question. If an attached dire weasel gets stunned, do they detach? Similar to that, if a grappled opponent becomes stunned, do they disengage the grapple? This assumes of course the other party isn't intending on holding the grapple. What about being held, as in hold person (or I guess hold monster in this case)? There are several other conditions which might be questionable, but let's leave it at that for now.

[WeaselGuy]

So if a dire weasel is attached to a halfling wizard, the wizard can still run about at 20' movement rate, cast spells, etc., with no penalty?

He might be encumbered somewhat by the near 10' long, up to 700 lb mustelid that's latched so hard onto him that he's taking 1d4 Con damage per round.

Just sayin'. While common sense isn't too common (especially among WotC playtesters/writers), as the DM sometimes you have to make that call. While neither the target nor the weasel are technically grappling (I would presume mostly to circumvent the size issues, as well as the grappling feats) some of the same parameters may apply.

[Flickerdart]

On a similar note, our party recently came up against these and came up with a question. If an attached dire weasel gets stunned, do they detach? Similar to that, if a grappled opponent becomes stunned, do they disengage the grapple? This assumes of course the other party isn't intending on holding the grapple. What about being held, as in hold person (or I guess hold monster in this case)? There are several other conditions which might be questionable, but let's leave it at that for now.
Specifically for the weasel, since it's attached through its teeth, stunning or paralysis wouldn't do anything since its muscles would probably lock. For a regular grappler, though, that's an interesting question...

[VoxRationis]

Certain kinds of paralysis just involve general muscle relaxation...

Given the description of the paralyzed condition, however, I don't think that's the accepted norm in D&D.

[Allianis]

Specifically for the weasel, since it's attached through its teeth, stunning or paralysis wouldn't do anything since its muscles would probably lock. For a regular grappler, though, that's an interesting question...

I'll bring it up on a separate thread.