What makes a hero a hero?

[Innis Cabal]

So, what do you think? What makes a hero a hero. And along those lines what is it that makes a villian a villian

[Closet_Skeleton]

You do realise you posted this in the pseudo-official video game forum right?

Hero = player character.

Villain = stuff that gives XP.

I'm not joking, I'm being subtly political.

Honest.

[Innis Cabal]

yes i am aware i posted it in a pseudo video game forum, but i think your estimation is a little black and white dont you? Can the PC play a villian? And can not the Hero give XP? I want to know what defines these two cliche's, i want to know what makes one a hero and what makes one a villian. Being a PC does not make you a hero, it makes you the main character. And a bad guy gives XP, does that make him a villian?

[Glaivemaster]

Bosses in some of the Final Fantasy games don't give XP. But they are definitely villains...

A villain is someone who fights for power, and is willing to sacrifice others to get his way. He is not necessarily uncaring, but he is probably selfish.

A hero is someone who fights for others, and will do almost anything to stop an innocent coming to harm. He is probably quite selfless. I think the best description of a hero is somebody who fights a villain out of the desire to protect.

[Maxymiuk]

I think the best description of a hero is somebody who fights a villain

Precisely. A hero cannot exist without a villain. Having a villain to oppose, or some type of evil to vanquish is what defines a hero. Otherwise he's just a troublemaker who runs around armed to the teeth.

[Abacab]

A hero is someone who wants the spotlight in any book, movie, show, or game.

A hero doesn't necessarily have to be considered, "Lawful Good". They could have just sacrificed their life, time, or hapiness for someone else's sake. A hero doesn't have to be always helping every second, they just needed to have impacted somebody in a large enough and in a positive way.

Oh wait... I was talking about an everyday hero...

[Indon]

A hero is like a protagonist, but generally with better qualities (angst nonwithstanding).

[EvilElitest]

A hero is the person who saves the day and fights for what is "right" while the villian does not and is the greatest opponent to this.
The main villian is the final boss in the game.

I wish this was not true but we apperently can't have morally ambiguous games.
from,
EE

[Setra]

Okay... well I have my own definitions for Hero and whatnot.

Hero: Someone who will fight for what is right, and defend the weak, someone couragous, and kind. They will do this at the cost of their own life. (ex. Link, Cecil)

Anti-Hero: Someone, who at the end of the day, will help a Hero, someone who will defend the weak, and do what is right, but maybe for other reasons, they don't have to be kind, nor willing to risk their life. (ex. Kain, Amarant)

Villian: Someone who wishes to rule over the world, without mercy, or kindness, or just kill a lot of people, stuff like that. (ex. Kefka, Luca Blight)

Anti-Villian: Someone who opposes the good guys for the wrong reasons, and would make a good Hero. (ex. Beatrix, General Leo)

[Eldred]

Precisely. A hero cannot exist without a villain. Having a villain to oppose, or some type of evil to vanquish is what defines a hero. Otherwise he's just a troublemaker who runs around armed to the teeth.
This is a brilliant point. Without evil, there isnt technically any good; so there are no heroes.

But despite the standard conventions of a hero and villian, isn't it as much a point of view? When a commoner sees a hero walking through town, in bulky armour with a greatsword, they are just as likely to think "He could be trouble" than "He's here to protect us!".

And what defines a hero in an evil land? The man who slays thousands of men? The man who conquers nations?

It's all a matter of opinion. :smallsmile:

[Setra]

This is a brilliant point. Without evil, there isnt technically any good; so there are no heroes.

But despite the standard conventions of a hero and villian, isn't it as much a point of view? When a commoner sees a hero walking through town, in bulky armour with a greatsword, they are just as likely to think "He could be trouble" than "He's here to protect us!".

And what defines a hero in an evil land? The man who slays thousands of men? The man who conquers nations?

It's all a matter of opinion. :smallsmile:
I prefer to define Hero and Villian by ideals...

Anyone can kill an evil person, even a villian, that doesn't mean anything.

It's the reasons you do what you do.

[Kalirren]

An ill-characterized hero is the character you happen to be playing.

A well-characterized hero in any given narrative is a character you can (be made to) sympathize with, understand, and whose perspective you share throughout the narrative.

A well-characterized villain is a character who, by virtue of how the narrative is presented to you, you find it difficult or inhuman to empathize with.

An ill-characterized villain is a monster worth XP.

[Setra]

A well-characterized villain is a character who, by virtue of how the narrative is presented to you, you find it difficult or inhuman to empathize with.
Doesn't that technically make Sephiroth an ill-characterized villian then?

A loooootta people seem to empathize with him.

[Kalirren]

Sephiroth is a gray case, and it's not gray because of characterization - FFVII did a fine job of giving us a picture in shades about what and who he was. The more we learn about his story the more we can indeed understand what makes him tick, and the more it is possible to empathize with him. The important part here is that even after we understand, we still come to the conclusion that he is, en fin de compte, misguided. This, to me, is an artifact of the way the narrative was presented and told, and not part of Sephiroth's character itself.

After that determination is made, we look at what he does, and then we see he also goes around causing wanton destruction and killing innocents to achieve his goals, which puts him solidly in the villain category.

Edit: To make it more clear - Sephiroth thought he was a hero. However, as the narrative is told, -we- happen to share the perspective of Cloud, which makes him a villain.

[Lemur]

A hero or antihero is generally a/the main character, whoever the story focuses on. It doesn't matter what/who he fights for, what his ideals are, how he fights (or if he even fights at all), he has the title by virtue of his role as a protagonist.

Determining whether the protagonist is a hero or antihero is where you take morality and cause and all that jazz into consideration.

A hero is generally someone who acts according to, and embodies ideals held by society. A hero is also someone who possesses the ability, wit, and will to at least marginally succeed at his goals most of the time, or at least when it really matters. Different cultures have different kinds of heroes because they have differing ideals for their heroes to uphold. The hero usally wins in the end, but not always.

A villain, on the other hand, is in many ways the opposite of a hero. He opposes, thwarts, or denies the ideals of society in some way or another. As a result, villains are often portrayed as lacking ideals, but this isn't quite true- a villain simply holds ideals that are different from the whole of society. Villains generally don't get to be protagonists, but occasionally they might manage. Most villanous types who get to be main characters are actually antiheroes instead, however. The villain usually loses in the end, but not always. However, during the majority of the story, many villains are enjoying some degree of success.

The antihero, however, can have all the qualities of a villain, and be a protagonist. This doesn't mean that an antihero has to have villanous qualities, however. An antihero is someone who either fails to live up to society's ideals, or directly opposes them as a villain would. While a hero is assumed to be competant and moral, an antihero doesn't have to be (although he still can be). This makes the antihero much more of a catch-all term than hero or villain, who occupy easier-defined roles.

So what's the deal with society then? The culture of a society defines who's a hero, villain and antihero- but only for that specific society. Two different cultures could have the same story, with the same characters, but not agree on who was the hero, and who was the villain.

Finally, keep in mind these definitions aren't completely definite. If you tried hard enough, you could probably find a character who doesn't fit any category. It would be difficult though, primarily because antihero tends to pick up most exceptions and oddballs, as there are numerous varieties of antiheroes.

[Murongo]

A hero is the main character and a villain is someone who gets in his way.

"Good" is subjective.

[Innis Cabal]

A hero and a Villian is not a matter of opinion. What is good and what is bad is. A hero does not need to be good to be a hero, nor does a villian have to be evil to be a villian.

Just to throw another thing in here. What makes a good sidekick and side villians? So pretty much...what makes a good supporting cast?

[Setra]

A hero and a Villian is not a matter of opinion. What is good and what is bad is. A hero does not need to be good to be a hero, nor does a villian have to be evil to be a villian.
I suppose that is pretty much true.

After all, an Orc 'Hero' to us, is a Villian, but of course a Hero to the Orcs...

[tgva8889]

A hero is, by dictionary definition:


a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.Personally, however, I think what defines a "hero" from a "villain" is truly point of view. Good Example: Darth Vader is most definately a villain to us. But to the Empire, Darth Vader could just as easily be the Hero of the Empire, he who went and destroyed the Jedi, etc. Also, the orc example above.

Thus, I agree with anyone who says that the character whom the main character sees as the right one is the hero. If, for example, the main character is an American, he might see the President as the hero and Hitler as a Villain, where as if the main character were German, he might see Hitler as a hero. Not to stereo-type anyone, of course. Many Germans could have seen Hitler as the villain he was. But it is based on the views of the person we are seeing things from.

[Pyre]

Doesn't that technically make Sephiroth an ill-characterized villian then?

A loooootta people seem to empathize with him.

That's because he's pretty.

[Setra]

That's because he's pretty.
Pretty, witty, and gay?

Seriously, he is a bit obsessed with Cloud. Not to mention in America he is voiced by Lance Bass...

This was a joke!

[Innis Cabal]

*beats Setra* you shut up! Stop bringing fancition to the board!

[SITB]

Are you talking about Hero/Villain in video game sense or something else?

Assuming you mean video game wise, the Villain is someone who has a specific goal to achieve with specific limited resources (even if those include "an empire") which is willing to sacrafice things in order to succeed (often other people lives in order to illustrate that he is in fact the Villain.

The Hero in the other hand, is someone who goes out and tries thwart the Villain at every turn. He does not have to succeed, nor to be only focused on that goal but he must work at it most of the time.

Thus, in video games Villains usually try to achieve something while mostly the sole purpose of the Heroes is to hamper them.

[Rob Knotts]

My two favourite video game franchises (after 2d fighting games) Are Legacy-of-Kain/Soul-Reaver and God Of War, so I can't get away with claiming heroes have any sort of inherent moral/ethical quality. In my experience, it's more than just being the character the player controls, the hero is really the character the player identifies with most. In the Kain/Reaver games, the uber-vampire Kain starts out as a definite bad guy, sympathetic only because he's at the mercy of characters worse than he is. By the end of Defiance, Kain has been made out to be an epic hero who exists beyond good and evil because it's the only way he can have any choice in his life.

[sun_tzu]

What makes a hero? Courage and altruism. The hero fights for the right thing, for the right reasons. And I'll have to disagree with what some of the people here said - there doesn't need to be evil or villainy for there to be good and heroism. A fire has no malice in it whatsoever, but the firefighters who protect people from it are still heroes.
What makes a villain? Fighting for the wrong thing. He can have good motivations (Ozymandias comes to mind), making him a misguided villain...He can have evil motivations (Kefka, Darkseid)...But in the end, the villain is someone making the world a worse place.

[Archonic Energy]

"evil will always triumph over good... because good is dumb"

most people who play videogames hardly fall into the good catagory

PC: "excuse my while i rumage through your megre possessions looking for something i can pawn so i can buy that Uber-sword i saw in the shop over there"
NPC: "go ahead and can you please find me a copy of the phone directory. i'll give you 50Gp & some XP"
PC: SCORE.. i mean sure

[Tengu]

"evil will always triumph over good... because good is dumb"

Yeah, one of the prime reasons why the bad guys almost always lose seems to be their underestimation of the opponents they face.

[Indon]

A hero and a Villian is not a matter of opinion. What is good and what is bad is. A hero does not need to be good to be a hero, nor does a villian have to be evil to be a villian.


I'd assert that being a protagonist is not the only criteria for being a hero, and being the antagonist is not the only criteria for being a villain.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Anti-Villian: Someone who opposes the good guys for the wrong reasons, and would make a good Hero. (ex. Beatrix, General Leo)

Anti-villains are interesting because:


They term only exists because there's a term for Anti-hero
Nobody has really defined them
If you can distinguish between a villain and an anti-villain you can learn something about villainsI would personaly say that an Anti-villain is a character that is opposed to the hero but is not neccesaraly immoral and might even be right. An anti-hero is after all a character in the hero's role who may not be heroic so an anti-villain should be similar.

I'll discuss a few characters I consider being anti-villains with spoilers.

King Zephiel - Fire Emblem: The Sealed Sword (a Japan only GBA game)
King Zephiel is the main villain, it's your job to stop his armies from taking over the world. He's not the final boss however, the final boss is one of his servants. King Zephiel actually sacrifises himself for his cause so that his minions can carry on his plans. He's also a well loved leader and after you kill him and install his sister on the throne then the people of his country see you as evil conquorers.

The plot is that 1000 years ago, humans won a massive war with Dragons. King Zephiel is only a misanthrope who believes that the Dragons should have won since humans were the aggressors and Dragons are naturally peaceful creatures. He's still trying to wipe out humanity and it's the hero's job to stop him. There's no dispute that he's the villain of the story, but he has some good characteristics.

Chairman Gilbert Durandal - Gundam Seed Destiny
Chairman Durandal is the main villain. His plan is to become the ruler of a world where everyone's social role is determined by their genetics, something like Huxley's Brave New World. However he has the intention to stop war. He fights a secret society of arms contractors that are clearly bad people. For much of the series it seems that he might be misunderstood.

In the end the people who kill Durandal and stop his plans are best described as conservative. They're people who believe that people deserve freedom. Durandal however believes that the world where people have freedom is a horrible place. He's trying to make a better world but at the same time he's a control freak with a god complex.

Anarky - A Batman villain
Anarky is a cliche anarchist villain with an unimaginative name. Batman is a hero and batman has to stop Anarky's plans. Anarky wants to bring down world governments and is a criminal.

However Anarky believes that the government is corrupt and sees a world without countries as a world free of oppression. However his plans are destabilising the world and could have dangerous effects. Batman has to stop Anarky because Anarky is a danger to society. However Anarky is not a full villain because there is the possibility that he is right and society isn't worth protecting.

So if an Anti-villain is an antagonist who may have pure ideals despite his violent methods then a pure villain is an antagonist who doesn't have such ideals. If a true villain is leading a seemingly good cause then he's merely using people as dupes. If an anti-villain is leading a seemingly good cause then he really believes in that cause but the cause is debatable. A true villain is willing to despose of everything for himself. A true villain sees himself as above morality, as more intitled to wealth than anyone else.

[elliott20]

By video game standards, a hero is somebody with plot-armor that the player controls. A villain is just an obstacle.

[alec]

A hero is someone who gets other people killed.

You were all thinking it! I just said it.

[Tom_Violence]

Precisely. A hero cannot exist without a villain. Having a villain to oppose, or some type of evil to vanquish is what defines a hero. Otherwise he's just a troublemaker who runs around armed to the teeth.


I disargee. A hero can define himself as such without having to be opposed to some villain. A man who dashes into a burning building to save the people inside, despite the massive personal risk, would probably count as a hero to most people, despite not being in any conflict with anything that could be considered 'evil'.


This is a brilliant point. Without evil, there isnt technically any good; so there are no heroes.

But despite the standard conventions of a hero and villian, isn't it as much a point of view? When a commoner sees a hero walking through town, in bulky armour with a greatsword, they are just as likely to think "He could be trouble" than "He's here to protect us!".

And what defines a hero in an evil land? The man who slays thousands of men? The man who conquers nations?

It's all a matter of opinion. :smallsmile:

Assuming the hero really is a hero (and being a hero is something 'real'), the commoner thinking that he's going to cause trouble doesn't change that. So its not completely a matter of opinion. What someone thinks about something doesn't change the thing itself. It may just be that the commoner can't always recognise a hero when he sees one. Imagine a glass of poisoned water. Someone thinking that it will be good and refreshing doesn't change the fact of the matter - it just means that they were wrong in their analysis.


In my opinion, the term 'hero' only makes sense as a relation between things, just as the term 'friend' does. In this way it ceases to become a case of whether or not a person acts in occordance with 'The Good' (if you even believe such a thing exists), or even necessarily whether a person complies with a society's standards. It can be in relation to a society - a person could be a hero to a society by doing great things that the society holds in high regard - but it doesn't have to be that way. A person can just as easily be a hero to a single individual by doing things that that one person considers especially great, even if those things go against the commonly-held moral compass.

[Charity]

Tom once again you echo my words before I get a chance to say them...
It's that hat you bought me for Christmas isn't it?

The videogame ideal of a hero, is generally little more than wisecracking psycopath, and the media's is anyone whom has 'suffered bravely' neither is close IMHO.

[RTGoodman]

According to expert Dwight Schrute, "A hero kills people. People that wish him harm. A hero is part human and part supernatural. A hero is born out of a childhood trauma or a disaster that must be avenged."

Anyone else watch 'The Office'?

[Tom_Violence]

Tom once again you echo my words before I get a chance to say them...
It's that hat you bought me for Christmas isn't it?

The videogame ideal of a hero, is generally little more than wisecracking psycopath, and the media's is anyone whom has 'suffered bravely' neither is close IMHO.


Money well spent, my friend. Now I just have to find a way to get people in positions of power to accept the hat!

And yes, I agree that perhaps using videogames as a means of assessment on this particular issue may be unwise, given the body count that traditionally follows even the noblest of heroes.

[elliott20]

i.e. any Dynasty Warrior games, where you get to single handed slay enemies by the literally the thousands.