Concentration and polymorph

[Yoroichi]

Hey guys, i have seen threads where polymorph is thoroughly discussed, but a heated debate has risen in our table and i wanted your input. I specifically want to discuss level 4 polymorph, not true polymorph and not shapechange.

Our 19 lvl Warlock polymorphed himself, using the class ability (w/e its called), into a lvl 7 Huge Ape.

Now the question i need help answering is whether or not you can maintain concentration when polymorphed to an ape.

The wording of the polymorph spell says pretty much this: You throw away your stats, and take the stats of the ape, abilities etc, but you keep your personality.
Given that the PHB says that your ability scores are a quick reflection of your personality, i find that the wording of polymorph is terrible.

So, when you polymorph yourself to an ape, can the ape (you basically, or not?) keep concentrating on the polymorph spell>?

[PhantomRenegade]

I'd say it would depend on the ape's inteligence, the wizard is still himself more or less the only problem is that his mental statistics are that of the animal, thus if the animal has high enough inteligence i don't really see the problem.

[ImSAMazing]

Hey guys, i have seen threads where polymorph is thoroughly discussed, but a heated debate has risen in our table and i wanted your input. I specifically want to discuss level 4 polymorph, not true polymorph and not shapechange.

Our 19 lvl Warlock polymorphed himself, using the class ability (w/e its called), into a lvl 7 Huge Ape.

Now the question i need help answering is whether or not you can maintain concentration when polymorphed to an ape.

The wording of the polymorph spell says pretty much this: You throw away your stats, and take the stats of the ape, abilities etc, but you keep your personality.
Given that the PHB says that your ability scores are a quick reflection of your personality, i find that the wording of polymorph is terrible.

So, when you polymorph yourself to an ape, can the ape (you basically, or not?) keep concentrating on the polymorph spell>?

I'd say yes, because when you Shapechange(lvl 9 spell) into a Ancient WHite Dragon, you can also keep your concentration. If you couldn't, those spells would be useless won't they?

[Chronos]

Maybe there'd be a problem if you turned into an ooze or something, but animals are still fully capable of concentration.

[Yoroichi]

I'd say yes, because when you Shapechange(lvl 9 spell) into a Ancient WHite Dragon, you can also keep your concentration. If you couldn't, those spells would be useless won't they?

Shapechange has a range of self and you retain your mental statistics,unlike polymorph.

On polymorph you CAN NOT cast spells, so how can you as an ape maintain concentration on a spell?

I agree you can concentrate, but can you concentrate on a spell?

[Ninja_Prawn]

I'd say yes, because when you Shapechange(lvl 9 spell) into a Ancient WHite Dragon, you can also keep your concentration. If you couldn't, those spells would be useless won't they?

The general assumption is that you mostly polymorph other people. Turn the evil princess into a frog, turn your ally into a Balor (level / CR permitting), etc.

I'd let a wizard polymorph themselves, but the RAW is ambiguous.

[Steampunkette]

Yes. You maintain concentration as a gorilla. Or a squirrel. Or any animal regardless of its intelligence or ability to cast spells. Because that's how the spell has to work for personal polymorphing. If you make it only target others then it doesn't matter. It's up to the DM to interpret for now.

Though Wild Mages can cast polymorph on themselves with a surge and if they fail the save become a sheep for the duration. If the duration is concentration then they can end it, immediately. And if a sheep can't concentrate it ends immediately. So I think RAI is self targeting maintained concentration.

[pwykersotz]

Here's Crawford's Sage Advice (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/524697849070514177) on the matter.

[SharkForce]

concentrating is not a class ability. it is not a racial ability. it is an assumed ability of everything in the game.

yes, you can still concentrate as an ape.

[ProphetSword]

I'm curious to know if you can even polymorph yourself in the first place, since the requirement is a "creature you can see." Can you see yourself? Not trying to start a debate...I'm honestly curious.

[Icewraith]

I'm curious to know if you can even polymorph yourself in the first place, since the requirement is a "creature you can see." Can you see yourself? Not trying to start a debate...I'm honestly curious.

Look down.
Look down. Don't look 'em in the eye.

[Steampunkette]

Sorcerors can without meaning to.

And then there's Mirrors for everyone else.

[Ninja_Prawn]

I'm curious to know if you can even polymorph yourself in the first place, since the requirement is a "creature you can see." Can you see yourself? Not trying to start a debate...I'm honestly curious.

Times when you can't see yourself:


You are blinded by something, such as the Blindness / Deafness spell or a blindfold
You are heavily obscured, such as within a Fog Cloud or at night
Your body is invisible
You are seeing using through the eyes of another, such as with the Find Familiar spell
You are dominated and your master tells you you're not allowed to see yourself
Your body is hidden by an illusion
You are suffering one of several "longterm madness" effects
Your eyes are closed
You are looking in a different direction
You are a ninja

And probably many more...

[ProphetSword]

All good answers. I was just curious if the rules specified. I haven't disallowed it at my table, I just find it odd it didn't say "yourself or another creature you can see."

[Ashrym]

The transmuter shapechanger specifies the wizard using the free polymorph ability must target himself. That would indicate self is an allowable target.

[KorvinStarmast]

Times when you can't see yourself:

[LIST] You are seeing using through the eyes of another, such as with the Find Familiar spell

Uh, I think that if you are seeing through the eyes of your familiar, and your familiar sees you, you see yourself ... unless you are a ninja, of course. :smallbiggrin:

[Ninja_Prawn]

Uh, I think that if you are seeing through the eyes of your familiar, and your familiar sees you, you see yourself ... unless you are a ninja, of course. :smallbiggrin:

Yes, indeed. Your familiar may be able to see you. Equally, you may have truesight, rendering the 'invisible' point irrelevant.

I was listing (somewhat tongue-in-cheek) situations when it's possible (rather than certain) that you couldn't see yourself. I should probably stop being so flippant.

[Jamesps]

I know this is a niche answer, but Huge Apes have low human intelligence anyways, and above average wisdom (7 and 12 respectively).

[ImSAMazing]

Conclusion:

You CAN keep your concentration when you are polymorphed(it is confirmed by WoTC). You can't cast spells why you are polymorphed, and you CAN cast polymorph on yourself.

[Yoroichi]

It is specified on the PHB that when a spell description writes, creature you can see, you can include yourself. Can't find it right now though.

Well, for my campaign, i am going to force a concentration check when the caster polymorphs himself with the new concentration modifier, and probably without proficiency.


Thank you for your replies

[Mara]

Hey guys, i have seen threads where polymorph is thoroughly discussed, but a heated debate has risen in our table and i wanted your input. I specifically want to discuss level 4 polymorph, not true polymorph and not shapechange.

Our 19 lvl Warlock polymorphed himself, using the class ability (w/e its called), into a lvl 7 Huge Ape.

Now the question i need help answering is whether or not you can maintain concentration when polymorphed to an ape.

The wording of the polymorph spell says pretty much this: You throw away your stats, and take the stats of the ape, abilities etc, but you keep your personality.
Given that the PHB says that your ability scores are a quick reflection of your personality, i find that the wording of polymorph is terrible.

So, when you polymorph yourself to an ape, can the ape (you basically, or not?) keep concentrating on the polymorph spell>?
1. Ofcourse, the spell would not work otherwise

2. No rule states that a low ability score means you can't concentrate

[ProphetSword]

I know someone posted the Sage Advice earlier, but here are the relevant tweets from both developers on the subject:

Polymorph says you can’t cast spells while in beast form. Does that mean you also can’t concentrate on them?
you can still concentrate — Mike Mearls (@mikemearls)
The polymorph spell doesn't interrupt the concentration of its target. — Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford)

[Ashrym]

2. No rule states that a low ability score means you can't concentrate

Just a low ability score that can impact concentration checks as a minor add-on.

[Chronos]

Unless the form you turn into has a higher Constitution than your normal form, which will often be the case.

[Ashrym]

Unless the form you turn into has a higher Constitution than your normal form, which will often be the case.

True, assuming something like a giant ape or trex for combat, but not using the spell for a utility form.