Wondrous Woes

[Afgncaap5]

So, I'm thinking of getting rid of, or severely altering, the Craft Wondrous Item feat in my games.

I don't think it'll *really* change much for my players, and... well, the feat's just too light on lore and heavy on crunch, if that makes sense. I've got two basic changes in mind:

1) Give Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion, Craft Wand and other similar formula-driven feats a lot more freedom to make items that are outside of their standard formula (so, making Wondrous Pigments with Brew Potion and Golem Manuals with Scribe Scroll), and give non-formulaic feats like Forge Ring and Craft Rod more definite purposes (if a player wants a continuous effect, they *probably* want to make the item a Ring instead of a wondrous item.)
2) Creating more feats that might cover specific types of items. "Weave Wondrous Apparel" for people who want to make magical hats or magic shoes, or "Build Miraculous Vehicles" for people who want to make magical boats or wagons or Kwalishian apparatuses.

As an alternative to number 2, I'm thinking I might make Craft Wondrous Item a feat you can take multiple times, but each time limit it to two or three broad categories of items (Apparel, Vehicles, Food, Gems/Jewelry, etc.)

Will this break anything? I've never had a crafting-heavy player, so I don't think it'll be an issue on the PC side of things, but in case players ever do get involved in it, I don't want to break anything they might be interested in. (Artificers would be an obvious concern, but I've only had one player fill that role.)

[Venger]

I like the intent behind it, but your implementation is contrary to your intentions. you're fragmenting things unnecessarily. magic food/magic clothes/magic cars/etc do not all need to be different feats.

how about you just consolidate them into one feat and have it scale with level if you're for some reason worried that the inflated cot of eac new item category isn't an effective enough deterrent for characters to not make rings at lvl 1.

"craft magic stuff," and the people just chant over their pile of craft supplies, same crafting/money/xp rules. since it sounds like you want players to make their own stuff more often, you could even ignore spellcasting stuff as a requirement since it's not like anyone really pays attention to that anyway.

then when a new echelon came available, the feat could give a new benefit, so at lvl 5 magic arms/armor is unlocked, and etc, kinda like an artificer. if you want to democratize crafting, making it easier to do and not harder is the way to implement it.

[Afgncaap5]

how about you just consolidate them into one feat and have it scale with level if you're for some reason worried that the inflated cot of eac new item category isn't an effective enough deterrent for characters to not make rings at lvl 1.

"craft magic stuff," and the people just chant over their pile of craft supplies, same crafting/money/xp rules. since it sounds like you want players to make their own stuff more often, you could even ignore spellcasting stuff as a requirement since it's not like anyone really pays attention to that anyway.

then when a new echelon came available, the feat could give a new benefit, so at lvl 5 magic arms/armor is unlocked, and etc, kinda like an artificer. if you want to democratize crafting, making it easier to do and not harder is the way to implement it.

See, I might enjoy that if I was in a setting where "magic" was industrialized and most of it operated off of the same sort of energy all the time, but that's not really how things work in my campaign world. A community that has a grand tradition of powerful and beautiful magical candles can develop magical tricks and skills that a magical vintner wouldn't be able to replicate. Meanwhile, gnomish alchemists and dwarfish metalsmiths often develop secrets behind the scenes from each other and closely guard them until those times when they need to work together for common interests. It's not really a matter of spell power, it's more a matter of specialization. Basically, it's just not realistic to me that a level 3 Wizard can be an expert locksmith, clockmaker, bowyer, baker, botanist, tapestry weaver, cobbler, and luthier. I want a need for a wizard to say "Actually, I can't make this... I'm a botanist and a clockmaker. I should contact Wildorast, though, she's always making lenses for those telescopes of hers."

I suppose the alternate could be to revamp every single item in the game and give it a special Craft, Profession, or Knowledge check and go a step beyond Pathfinder by making all magical crafting use the mundane crafting rules in addition to the magical crafting rules, though I almost feel like that'd be more of an annoyance to players than making more feats if they ever decided to tackle the crafting mini-game.

[Venger]

See, I might enjoy that if I was in a setting where "magic" was industrialized and most of it operated off of the same sort of energy all the time, but that's not really how things work in my campaign world. A community that has a grand tradition of powerful and beautiful magical candles can develop magical tricks and skills that a magical vintner wouldn't be able to replicate. Meanwhile, gnomish alchemists and dwarfish metalsmiths often develop secrets behind the scenes from each other and closely guard them until those times when they need to work together for common interests. It's not really a matter of spell power, it's more a matter of specialization. Basically, it's just not realistic to me that a level 3 Wizard can be an expert locksmith, clockmaker, bowyer, baker, botanist, tapestry weaver, cobbler, and luthier. I want a need for a wizard to say "Actually, I can't make this... I'm a botanist and a clockmaker. I should contact Wildorast, though, she's always making lenses for those telescopes of hers."

the game's not supposed to be realistic. people can't fly or bend steel with their bare hands either, but no one complains about that. in a game where you can stare at a guy and make his head explode, having a haberdashier sell both magic belts and magic shoes is not going to violate anyone's suspension of disbelief.

if you wanted to impose some kind of arbitrary restrictions on your NPCs because you hate magicmarts and want your PCs to only be able to buy magic item class A in this city and magic item class B in that city, I can understand that. that's a cute idea and adds flavor and color to your setting. doing it to your players though is pure annoyance, as you seem to realize roping craft/profession into item creation is, so I don't think you should do it.


so you want "magic chandler," "magic oenologist" and "magic blacksmith" along with everything ele to all be different feats?

it sounds like you don't actually want your PCs to be able to craft magic items at all.

if that's how you feel, that's cool, it's your game and all, but just talk to them OOC and say "hey, I am banning crafting for this game, just wanted to give you guys a heads up so you can build accordingly" rather than try to sneak it in by fiat. if I took "craft magic arms and armor" and you said "actually, you need 'magical fletcher' if you want to make magic arrows, that's a separate feat." I would be...dissatisfied.



I suppose the alternate could be to revamp every single item in the game and give it a special Craft, Profession, or Knowledge check and go a step beyond Pathfinder by making all magical crafting use the mundane crafting rules in addition to the magical crafting rules, though I almost feel like that'd be more of an annoyance to players than making more feats if they ever decided to tackle the crafting mini-game.

that is an incredible annoyance. I advise as strongly as I can that you not do that. what you need to do when considering random houserules before you tink about mechanics or balance is "will this change make the game more fun?" I can say this would definitely not, it would just impose more skilltaxes and beancounting on your party.

[Afgncaap5]

if you wanted to impose some kind of arbitrary restrictions on your NPCs because you hate magicmarts and want your PCs to only be able to buy magic item class A in this city and magic item class B in that city, I can understand that. that's a cute idea and adds flavor and color to your setting. doing it to your players though is pure annoyance, as you seem to realize roping craft/profession into item creation is, so I don't think you should do it.

I'm more talking about the NPC side of things than the PC side of things. Like I said, crafting characters (particularly artificers) are a concern. A community of magicians where everyone's taught from childhood how to make magical vehicles to help with their bizarre transportation needs wouldn't, I think, impact the PCs except by decreasing the scarcity of such items once the PCs learn about the region where this happens.



if that's how you feel, that's cool, it's your game and all, but just talk to them OOC and say "hey, I am banning crafting for this game, just wanted to give you guys a heads up so you can build accordingly" rather than try to sneak it in by fiat. if I took "craft magic arms and armor" and you said "actually, you need 'magical fletcher' if you want to make magic arrows, that's a separate feat." I would be...dissatisfied.

Whoa, wow, no. That kind of category's too narrow... "Magic Weaponry" makes sense for a good free feat to give to many Dwarfish regions or Elfish regions, and "Magic Clothing" would fit as a decent free feat for some Halflings, and they're decently sized categories, but things as small as "Magic Stringed Instruments" and "Magic Reeded Instruments" don't work. (It's also worth noting that I wouldn't be touching Magic Arms and Armor except to give it more options. That example's actually related to one of the two things that inspired this; the fact that Brew Potion players can't make anything marked as an Elixir or Salve is, as you note, very dissatisfying.)



that is an incredible annoyance. I advise as strongly as I can that you not do that. what you need to do when considering random houserules before you tink about mechanics or balance is "will this change make the game more fun?" I can say this would definitely not, it would just impose more skilltaxes and beancounting on your party.

Right, that's why I discarded the suggestion when I pointed out the option. Sorry, I don't think I'm being very clear about a lot of things when I type them.

[Venger]

I'm more talking about the NPC side of things than the PC side of things. Like I said, crafting characters (particularly artificers) are a concern. A community of magicians where everyone's taught from childhood how to make magical vehicles to help with their bizarre transportation needs wouldn't, I think, impact the PCs except by decreasing the scarcity of such items once the PCs learn about the region where this happens.

oh,well sure, it doesn't matter what NPCs do. that sounds like a fun way to build color.


Whoa, wow, no. That kind of category's too narrow... "Magic Weaponry" makes sense for a good free feat to give to many Dwarfish regions or Elfish regions, and "Magic Clothing" would fit as a decent free feat for some Halflings, and they're decently sized categories, but things as small as "Magic Stringed Instruments" and "Magic Reeded Instruments" don't work. (It's also worth noting that I wouldn't be touching Magic Arms and Armor except to give it more options. That example's actually related to one of the two things that inspired this; the fact that Brew Potion players can't make anything marked as an Elixir or Salve is, as you note, very dissatisfying.)

oh I see, so you meant fragmenting the feats and giving some of the subfeats out to people. that's a great idea.

they can't make oils either. no one can. there's no rules on how to create them.


[quote]Right, that's why I discarded the suggestion when I pointed out the option. Sorry, I don't think I'm being very clear about a lot of things when I type them.
oh okay, I did not get that from your post. no problem.

[ace rooster]

What about requiring schematics? Use it in a similar way to a spellbook, and use similar rules for creating them. Researching new items could require resources equal to creating the item, and 10 times the time. Don't have schematics, can't build the item.

[Afgncaap5]

What about requiring schematics? Use it in a similar way to a spellbook, and use similar rules for creating them. Researching new items could require resources equal to creating the item, and 10 times the time. Don't have schematics, can't build the item.

That'd actually fit really well with another system I use called "Alchemical Secrets." Basically, people can use Craft (Alchemy) to craft a piece of knowledge (sort of like how the "Masterwork Component" of a craft check isn't a literal "thing" apart from a representation of the extra work involved.) It lets them open up new uses for Brew Potion and Craft (Alchemy) like 5th level potions, "unbreakable glass", "liquid night" and other oddities.