Help me build a thematic sorcerer :)

[skypse]

Hello again giants! This time I need your limitless wisdom and vast knowledge to build yet another character. I'm a wizard type of guy. I know my wizard and I can play my wizard eyes closed and hands tied behind my back. However I have zero idea of how a sorcerer should be played. I know the basics regarding spells known, slower advancement in spells than the wizard, fewer feats and access to some pretty nice powers through his bloodlines. However I've never built one, I have no idea what problems he might face (other than limited range of spells and low skill points) and what items would be good for him apart from the standardized cloak of resistance and ring of protection.
Now on top of that, I have specific limitations that come from a role-playing standpoint and won't change for no reason:
1) He must be either a Dwarf or a Gnome, preferably Lawful Neutral, Chaotic good if he HAS to.
2) He must be 7 level, with 25 point-buy and regular WBL
3) He SHOULD (not must) be protection-focused rather than nuke-focused like most of sorcerers I find around. There is a Witch in the party who will cover the control/debuff issues and enough damage output from our frontline which means my sorc should be protection/buff orriented and have a nuke or two as a backup plan. Maybe from scrolls or wands.
4) Sources allowed are: ANYTHING from PAIZO except ACG and Unchained. No 3rd party or earlier editions (like 3.5) for any reason whatsoever. Pathfinder companion books or Lore material (like Inner Sea Guide) are allowed. Specific Campaign players' guides are allowed but after checking with the DM.
5) IF he has to worship a God, that God should be Torag.

Thanks in advance for your guidance and help!

[Jahkin]

What are you building him in, 3.5 or Pathfinder? (You might want to tag the thread with that.)

EDIT: Nevermind, I see 'Paizo' further down your post. Might want to stick 'Pathfinder' in a prefix on the thread title.

[skypse]

What are you building him in, 3.5 or Pathfinder? (You might want to tag the thread with that.)

EDIT: Nevermind, I see 'Paizo' further down your post. Might want to stick 'Pathfinder' in a prefix on the thread title.

It already had a prefix. :)

[Psyren]

Gnome is the obvious preferred choice due to +Cha and Gnome Magic/Fell Magic/Magical Linguist/Pyromaniac. If you really want to be a Dwarf though, there is always the Empyreal bloodline (Wildblooded archetype) from UM that will let you cast from your Wis score instead.

[skypse]

Both races are fine. I was more inclined towards Gnome as well, but since I have no idea about sorcerers, I thought I should ask.

[Jahkin]

Opps. Missed that.

Anyway, I'm not sure you are going to get what you want out of Sorcerer, at least without bending over backwards and ending up with something that does support badly. It has been a long time since I built characters and I am just getting back into it, but I poured over the Bloodlines and Archetypes for something that is going to be helpful for a support role. The closest things I could find are the Bedrock Mutated Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/mutated-bloodlines---paizo/bedrock) and the Boreal Bloodline (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/boreal-bloodline). Even then, those mostly affect you in some manner, although the Boreal ability to add frost to weapons/ammo from level 1 is nice. The Sorcerer simply isn't geared to do support as almost every archetype and bloodline deals with modifying damage and making the Sorcerer perform better in combat. You could do support if you wanted to, but it would essentially be the same as an unoptimized, generic wizard with fewer spells. You can make up for that by workarounds that take advantage of more castings per day, but that is pretty limited.

Maybe you could narrow the field of support you want to do, rather than being generalized, which might be obtainable, although I suspect that it will still simply top out at poor-to-adequate.

Is this class selection simply a motivation by the GM to get you out of the wizard class? If so, I would argue that forcing you to play a sorcerer that is bad at support isn't motivation for change. There are other arcane (or non-arcane for that matter) classes that can do this much better, even if you don't take the easy route of cleric.

EDIT: If your heart is set on a support sorcerer, you need to be a gnome since you are starting far behind and can't afford to hobble yourself more.

[Gnaeus]

Assuming your witch knows what he is doing, you want a higher than normal load of save or lose spells, with a focus on Fort and reflex. The witch should be good at debuffing enemies so that they fail saves, and should be able to cripple anything that isn't immune to mind affecting unless it has an astronomical will save.

[skypse]

The witch knows what he's doing don't worry. I'm looking for advice regarding the Sorc. Bloodline, feats, items, if I should pick only defensive spells and have some nukes in scrolls and wands, etc...

[Psyren]

When in doubt, just take Arcane Bloodline.

Martyred gives you some decent group support ability if you truly want a bloodline that does that.

[Jahkin]

When in doubt, just take Arcane Bloodline.

Martyred gives you some decent group support ability if you truly want a bloodline that does that.

A good point, but it is pretty limited when taking into consideration what the Sorcerer class itself can give you for a support role.

[Psyren]

A good point, but it is pretty limited when taking into consideration what the Sorcerer class itself can give you for a support role.

Well, given that you'll have the sorcerer class regardless of bloodline I think that's a wash :smalltongue:

[Jahkin]

Well, given that you'll have the sorcerer class regardless of bloodline I think that's a wash :smalltongue:

True, although my point was more that we need to assess what it is that Sorcerer specifically is giving us to advance the desired support role.

[Psyren]

Indeed, it'll come down to spell choice - another reason why Arcane is probably the best for this, since it gives you more options - but Martyred has some great bonus spells. Blessing of Fervor for instance is one of the best buffs in the game and very spammable.

[MistahBoweh]

I think perhaps you're going about it wrong. Rather than look at pure support over damage with nukes as backup plans, look at your spells with damage plus something else. Even a fireball, which is traditionally just a nuke with no other effect, could be used to catch supports on fire and collapse flaming roof beams or pillars on enemies and pin them, or light up the area to hurt anything with low-light sensitivity. If you be creative with what your spells do, assuming the GM is willing to work with you, you can find ways to support your party with the traditional nukes. And because a Sorcerer is a spontaneous caster, you should try to pick up spells of each elemental damage or area type along the way, which will give you the most flexibility to find just the right one for the job.

If you mean thematic sorcerer that's a pacifist, rather than a sorcerer played as a support, the same thing still applies. You'll just have to sacrifice most of your elements in exchange for your defensive spells and save or dies. Just remember that your nukes are more than just nukes.

[Jahkin]

I think perhaps you're going about it wrong. Rather than look at pure support over damage with nukes as backup plans, look at your spells with damage plus something else. Even a fireball, which is traditionally just a nuke with no other effect, could be used to catch supports on fire and collapse flaming roof beams or pillars on enemies and pin them, or light up the area to hurt anything with low-light sensitivity. If you be creative with what your spells do, assuming the GM is willing to work with you, you can find ways to support your party with the traditional nukes. And because a Sorcerer is a spontaneous caster, you should try to pick up spells of each elemental damage or area type along the way, which will give you the most flexibility to find just the right one for the job.

If you mean thematic sorcerer that's a pacifist, rather than a sorcerer played as a support, the same thing still applies. You'll just have to sacrifice most of your elements in exchange for your defensive spells and save or dies. Just remember that your nukes are more than just nukes.

But the problem here is that the class simply doesn't lend itself to support, so the player is forced to play support as a lower level vanilla wizard would(meaning he needs to focus on buff and utility spells), which isn't something to entice a player to play something different. The class is simply inherently bad at fulfilling this role and you have to bend over backwards (as you are describing) to wring any use out of it for that role.

[Jahkin]

Indeed, it'll come down to spell choice - another reason why Arcane is probably the best for this, since it gives you more options - but Martyred has some great bonus spells. Blessing of Fervor for instance is one of the best buffs in the game and very spammable.

Martyred is a good choice, but they still aren't getting Blessings of Fervor for another 2 levels, so building around spamming that is a little moot. If the character was 9th level, I'd be with you there, but I would still think about exploring a different class.

EDIT: The character would have Heroism to spam, skipping the expense of potions, and Rallying Cry is something, although not much. If forced into Sorcerer, you are right; Martyred is probably the best bet.

[skypse]

Martyred looks like it's a good choice. Also I talked with my DM and it seems like he is cool with me taking Sacred Geometry so I believe I can use that Empowered/Enlarge combo to have good buffs lasting for a lot of time, helping my action economy this way. Plus I can still have a Fireball around or Firestream...

[Geddy2112]

Agree with the martyred bloodline as best for a support sorcerer, although arcana is hands down the best bloodline for all purpose. The bonus feats for martyered are not very useful(unless your DM allows leadership) and to get heroic defiance and recovery you have to pickup diehard and endurance. Rallying cry and blessing of fervor are big winners, and sacrifical exchange is great to further juice charisma once you get it. That said, the martyred bloodline and any buff sorcerer is going to fall behind against a buff bard, who will outperform almost every day of the week.

If you are still set on sorcerer, I second gnome. Their stats are perfect and gnomish magic makes them great at illusion spells. Academician and eternal hope racial traits are great swap ins as they replace things you don't really need as a sorcerer. Gnomes also have access to the feat effortless trickery, allowing you to concentrate on an illusion spell as a swift action. With some creativity, you can maintain silent/minor images or things like loathsome veil but still act as normal. Spell focus and greater could make.

You have access to haste, which is one of the best buff spells in the game. Combine that with blessings of fervor, heroism&greater heroism/rallying cry and this should carry you through most fights.

Defensive combat training, toughness and improved initiative are always good feats for a full caster. I am partial to breadth of experience, and if you want to be great at illusion effortless trickery is a must have. Spell selection is going to be about the same as a wizard.

A headband of alluring charisma, ring of protection and cloak of resistance are your major purchases. A mithral buckler has no penalty to spells or armor checks so I would take one. A haramaki is only 3 gp and has no spell failure for a +1 armor bonus. Pick a couple of wands and a handy haversack and that should cover you. At higher levels bump your headband, ring, cloak, adding bracers of armor and enhancements to your shield when you can.

Since your going to have CHA as a primary stat you can also be the group face, but you can only afford to max a few skills. If somebody else is the face, you can focus strictly on support. For a face roll take bluff, maybe intimidate. Arcana and spellcraft are a must, and use magic device is also good. You will be spending your favored class bonus in HP most of the time so you only have 3-4 points.

For what you are going for and within your constraints, I would go for something like.

LN Gnome sorcerer, martyred bloodline.
Stats(including racials and increase at level 4) 5 str, 14 dex, 14 con, 14 int, 10 wis, 21 cha.

Skills: 7 Arcana, 7 Use Magic Device, 7 spellcraft, 7 bluff.

Feats: Improved initiative, breadth of experience, effortless trickery, defensive combat training, toughness(bloodline)

Spells
0: Detect Magic, Light, Ray of frost or Acid splash, mage hand, mending, prestidigitation, ghost sound.
1:Ray of enfeeblement, grease, magic missile,silent image, enlarge person, endure elements(bloodline)
2:Invisibility, glitterdust, mirror image, blindness/deafness, surmount affliction(bloodline)
3: haste, dispel magic, heroism(bloodline)

Gear
Handy haversack
Headband charisma +2
mithral buckler
Ring Protection+2
Cloak of resistance+2
Haramaki
Amulet of natural armor +1
Wand of protection from evil

etc.

[Jahkin]

LN Gnome wizard, martyred bloodline

I, too, would go with a wizard, but they seem stuck on sorcerer. :smalltongue:

[Geddy2112]

I, too, would go with a wizard, but they seem stuck on sorcerer. :smalltongue:

Derp. Now a wizard with bloodline abilities that casts with charisma....

[skypse]

Feats: Improved initiative, breadth of experience, effortless trickery, defensive combat training, toughness(bloodline)


No metamagics or Sacred Geometry?

[Geddy2112]

No metamagics or Sacred Geometry?

Personally I don't see metamagic as very useful or needed until you are at higher levels. Also,metamagic feats are a bit more taxing for a sorcerer-since you can apply them to any spell as you cast, it increases the spell casting time. A standard action spell becomes a full round spell(exception: quicken spell) and I often don't find the trade to be worth it. Unlike a wizard or other prepared caster you need to choose your metamagic feats to match your spell list, as it not easily changed. For example, if you only have 1-2 spells that do damage, intensified spell is not a good candidate for you.

Sacred geometry increases the casting time by two categories for a sorcerer, making most metamagic unusable in combat. Quicken is still a good choice here. If you want Sacred geometry or a metamagic feat, I would probably wait till level 9 when you get 4th level spells.

[Psyren]

A lot of casters rarely use their move action once they get into position so I find metamagic to be worth it even with the increased casting time. For spells that you do want to be able to cast on the move there are traits and feats to enable this.

[skypse]

Since I am going for a support Sorcerer, I was thinking the Empower and Extend metamagics. If you combine those two you can buff up your team way before the battle starts and have long term buffs (e.g. Mage armor) up for almost a full day.
Empower will increase the effectiveness of the spell by 50% which means that at 7 level, my mage armor will provide 6 armor bonus to AC for 14 hours. Same goes for heroism and the rest. Unfortunately not for enlarge person since the benefits are acquired due to the increased size.

[Geddy2112]

Extend spell would be good for long term buffs, and the extra casting time won't mean a thing for spells you will be casting before combats. At level 9, you can have three hours of heroism per cast, might still be worth sacred geometry to save your higher level slots. Empower won't work for mage armor or anything else that has a fixed number, it only applies to spells with random variables. A metamagic spell to consider might be threatening illusion- you can provide flanking bonuses with any illusion(figment) to your allies, even if it is just ghost sound. Good if you have a rogue/lots of melee fighters.

[skypse]

Extend spell would be good for long term buffs, and the extra casting time won't mean a thing for spells you will be casting before combats. At level 9, you can have three hours of heroism per cast, might still be worth sacred geometry to save your higher level slots. Empower won't work for mage armor or anything else that has a fixed number, it only applies to spells with random variables. A metamagic spell to consider might be threatening illusion- you can provide flanking bonuses with any illusion(figment) to your allies, even if it is just ghost sound. Good if you have a rogue/lots of melee fighters.

Heh I just saw what I said... *Feeling stupid*

Anyway, Threatening spell needs spell focus so I most probably would take it through Sacred Geometry. Yet, the dilemma between having a backup spell slot for fireball VS having it as a couple of scrolls remain. I believe I should focus my spell known to the defensive/supportive spells I need as a theme, so the scrolls would be a much better choice. One could argue I could have Mage Armor as a wand or scroll, but I feel like I should use them with my metamagics...

[Geddy2112]

yet, the dilemma between having a backup spell slot for fireball VS having it as a couple of scrolls remain. I believe I should focus my spell known to the defensive/supportive spells I need as a theme, so the scrolls would be a much better choice. One could argue I could have Mage Armor as a wand or scroll, but I feel like I should use them with my metamagics...
I agree. A couple scrolls of fireball just in case is never a bad idea-nobody ever died of having too many options in combat, but lack of options is dangerous. You need to think bigger though...a sorcerer not only has UMD as a class skill, but you have some mad charisma. With 7 ranks in UMD and a 5 cha mod, you have a +15 to UMD. Using a wand is a DC20, and a scroll is 20+caster level. Go shopping through all of the spell lists for the highlights. Faerie fire is druid only and a great 1st level wand. Need to lie professionally? Glibness is a 3rd level bard spell. Silence is one of the best spells for the level. Shut down spellcasters, protect the party from sound based abilities, prevent eavsdropping by creating a no sound bubble between you and X, or move the group around silently for a little while. It won't last too long on a wand, so you might want higher level scrolls. Shield of faith is your wand to hand out protection in combat, unless they already have rings of protection. Lesser restoration is also a great wand to have.


One could argue I could have Mage Armor as a wand or scroll, but I feel like I should use them with my metamagics
Mage armor is kind of a dilemma, because at low levels it won't last very long so you only cast it when you need it, but at higher levels its no longer needed because of bracers of armor. With a wizard, you just stop preparing it and that's that, but a sorcerer has it as a spell known. You can unlearn it later, but you might want it at this level. With a haramaki, you have a +1 armor bonus so your only getting +3 net from mage armor, and it certainly does want metamagics. Now, if you have other party members who can benefit from mage armor it becomes more important, and certainly required for your theme. This depends on your party-if you are the only arcane caster in a group of monks, its critical. If you have a witch and a wizard, and the rest of the party is rocking full plate make them cast the dang spell.