So if the world in the rift is the "old world"...

[littlebum2002]

The theory has been brought up on this forum numerous times that the planet in the rift is the "old" planet and therefore was not, in fact, destroyed like Shojo said it was but was instead transported inside the rift, or the snarl, or whatever, after which the "new" world was built around it.

so, following that chain of logic, if the last gate is destroyed (let's face it, it will be; there's no way we have 2 books left dedicated to one dungeon and saving the last gate) and the snarl gets out, would it actually destroy this world? Or would it instead bring this world with it into the rift, like it did the last one, after which the gods will simply create a new one on top of it (again) and be ignorant of the world inside (again)?

(I'm thinking it's something like a black hole: people (and gods) can go in, and live their lives as normal, they just can never go out again. Kinda like what Einstein said about black holes, except for the whole "dying at the singularity" part: "In fact, in a big enough black hole, you could live out the rest of your life pretty normally before dying at the singularity.")

If this situation happened, everyone, well all the sympathetic characters, Xykon excluded, would have their happy endings. The Order would have saved the world from "destruction", instead just moving it to another plane of existence. The goblins would have a seat at the table of the new world. You'll have a world inside a world inside a world, like a nesting doll, and each one getting progressively better as they are created. In fact, if this is true, the snarl could be seen as a good thing, "absorbing" the old worlds when its time for a new one to be created and then letting the gods fix (some) of their mistakes, before waiting a few thousand years and doing it again.

[Ornithologist]

My personal theory is that the old world is indeed inside the rifts. When the last gate falls, I am under the impression that the 2 worlds will merge and cause havoc. Also, crazy distored world mash makes for a great final setting.

[Murk]

(I'm thinking it's something like a black hole: people (and gods) can go in, and live their lives as normal, they just can never go out again.

The problem with that is that people went in not too long ago (like Kraagor, who should still live, then), but it's pretty much implied that nothing is living on that world (as Laurin said: no life in the ocean for miles).
So, even if you could pass through the gates alive, there is nothing to eat there, and I have the feeling there's something else that makes pretty sure you die.

[littlebum2002]

The problem with that is that people went in not too long ago (like Kraagor, who should still live, then), but it's pretty much implied that nothing is living on that world (as Laurin said: no life in the ocean for miles).
So, even if you could pass through the gates alive, there is nothing to eat there, and I have the feeling there's something else that makes pretty sure you die.

Yes, I was implying that Kraagor (and Soon's wife) were still alive on the world inside the rift, but the whole "no life in the oceans" thing is sort of a downer for my theory...

[Kantaki]

The problem with that is that people went in not too long ago (like Kraagor, who should still live, then), but it's pretty much implied that nothing is living on that world (as Laurin said: no life in the ocean for miles).
So, even if you could pass through the gates alive, there is nothing to eat there, and I have the feeling there's something else that makes pretty sure you die.

Laurin said she didn't sense fish not that she didn't sense life. There could still be plant life in the oceans. (And on land of course, but I doubt her powers reached that far.) Another possibility is that there are only no fish in the area she scanned, other parts of the world could be full of animals. Or the Snarl blocked her somehow.

[littlebum2002]

Or the Snarl blocked her somehow.

LOL I was just thinking the same thing. If there is in fact an Event Horizon, then no wonder she can't sense life in there. It's like the entire world inside a rift is in a Cloister effect, you can send information in, but none comes out. Except, apparently, light. And snarl fingers, but they are obviously special.

[Grey Watcher]

I actually am not sure if this book will culminate in the fight for Kraagor's Gate. The pattern thus far has been Gate (Dungeon Crawlin' Fools), No Gate (No Cure for the Paladin Blues), Gate (War and XPs), No Gate (Don't Split the Party).

So assuming Rich doesn't decide to subvert expectations (which he does, including subverting subversions), this book should be a Not Gate book.

[Xihirli]

Soon's wife left a body.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

[Bulldog Psion]

Soon's wife left a body.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

According to a quite possibly incorrect Crayons of Time account, told at second hand by a treacherous chap who faked insanity to keep power, Soon's wife left a body.

[kivzirrum]

This is an actual theory? Cool, this is what I've thought could be the case since our first glimpse of the other world, glad to know I'm in good company :smallbiggrin:

[littlebum2002]

The bodies from the "snarl killed the world and all the gods" scene are easy to explain, because no one actually knew what happened, and Soon was just describing what he thought happened. The body of Soon's wife is a bit harder, because you would think Soon told the Paladins the story, and Shojo was alive while Soon was so probably would have heard it as well...



This is an actual theory? Cool, this is what I've thought could be the case since our first glimpse of the other world, glad to know I'm in good company :smallbiggrin:

Yes, it's a pretty prevalent theory. Another big one was that it was Earth, but the Giant debunked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?331522-OOTS-945-The-Discussion-Thread/page4&p=17004853#post17004853) that.

[Reddish Mage]

The bodies from the "snarl killed the world and all the gods" scene are easy to explain, because no one actually knew what happened, and Soon was just describing what he thought happened. The body of Soon's wife is a bit harder, because you would think Soon told the Paladins the story, and Shojo was alive while Soon was so probably would have heard it as well...




Yes, it's a pretty prevalent theory. Another big one was that it was Earth, but the Giant debunked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?331522-OOTS-945-The-Discussion-Thread/page4&p=17004853#post17004853) that.

Just looking around for possibilities for the world-in-the-rift, there's the old world and then there's...

Not a single thing that has been mentioned in the comics.

Anything other than the old world is a completely speculative ass-pull. The only other world-option with an in comic mention is the Stick-World itself.

If we are being purely speculative, what is to say the planet and the ocean are not from two seperate worlds?

[littlebum2002]

Soon's wife left a body.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html


OK, I dont REALLy think this, and I am pushing this metaphor to the breaking point right now, but there is a hypothesis (http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150525-a-black-hole-would-clone-you) that, if you fell into a black hole, you are cloned: one copy of you stays outside the black hole and dies, and one copy of you goes inside and lives. Although I really doubt that's what happened to Soon's wife



Just looking around for possibilities for the world-in-the-rift, there's the old world and then there's...

Not a single thing that has been mentioned in the comics.

Anything other than the old world is a completely speculative ass-pull. The only other world-option with an in comic mention is the Stick-World itself.

If we are being purely speculative, what is to say the planet and the ocean are not from two seperate worlds?

Well, even saying it's the Old World is speculative ass-pull. It could just be another plane of existence, those things are all over the place in D&D.

And in regards to them being different worlds: That does kinda make sense, doesn't it? It would be pretty weird to see the planet from outer space in one rift and from the surface in another. The geometry just doesn't seem right there.

[Reddish Mage]

Well, even saying it's the Old World i s speculative ass-pull. It could just be another plane of existence, those things are all over the place in D&D.

Law of Conservation of Narrative: If something is introduced but not named, chances are its something that has already been mentioned.


And in regards to them being different worlds: That does kinda make sense, doesn't it? It would be pretty weird to see the planet from outer space in one rift and from the surface in another. The geometry just doesn't seem right there.
Exactly. However, two location would throw the above law in a loop not to mention Occams Razor. I prefer the idea that it's both examples of the Order of the Stick-world. Let the rifts represent a breakdown in reality but the location just be unimportant.

[Peelee]

Law of Conservation of Narrative: If something is introduced but not named, chances are its something that has already been mentioned.
And yet,

Conservation of Detail is overrated.

That's not to say that you're definitively wrong, but I would say it skews the odds.

[goodpeople25]

According to a quite possibly incorrect Crayons of Time account, told at second hand by a treacherous chap who faked insanity to keep power, Soon's wife left a body.
Though i totally agree that crayons of time was 2nd hand, and the visuals are not necessarily correct or a perfectly accurate representation of what happened. Was it really necessary to bring your opinion of Shojo's character into it? Especially since the faking insanity was one of the least treacherous things about him, Not telling the paladins on the other hand you have a point. Also are you trying to say that Shojo altered the Secret forbidden lore years ago for some reason? Or are you saying that Hinjo is in on telling a fake historyas he was likely in the room during story time and never corrected it later on. I just don't see how Shojo's character is relevant to the truth of the story.

[zimmerwald1915]

And yet,

That's not to say that you're definitively wrong, but I would say it skews the odds.
Conservation of detail is being applied differently here than it was in the thread that prompted the Giant's response. The arguments start in different places and aim to prove different things. In the earlier thread, the argument was that the troglodytes' boss was mentioned, therefore said boss must be important to the story. Here the argument starts from our virtual certainty that the world in the rift is important. It's been featured ominously and on-panel at least twice (more if you count the Order's and Laurin's peeks into Girard's Rift separately). The argument continues to say that because only one thing like the world in the rift (World 1.0) has ever been mentioned, World 1.0 must be more related to the world in the rift than anything else.

Put another way, in the earlier thread conservation of detail was used to make a judgment whether something was important, while here it is being used to make predictions about something that is surely important.

[Ornithologist]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but the land masses in the planet on the crayon section are remarkably similar the sections to the landmasses that blackwing sees.

Its most likely that the snarl cannot directly interact with regular matter, but can interact with anything deific/spiritual. (Souls, Gods, other stuff I cannot think about this late.)

There is a dead soldier on panel when the snarl breaks out in the desert as back to that claim.

[Peelee]

Put another way, in the earlier thread conservation of detail was used to make a judgment whether something was important, while here it is being used to make predictions about something that is surely important.

Point taken.

I used to be a proponent of the World 1-1 theory, but when the Snarl broke out, everything I thought just flew right out the window. Now I'm just waiting to see what more comes of it.

[dtilque]

And in regards to them being different worlds: That does kinda make sense, doesn't it? It would be pretty weird to see the planet from outer space in one rift and from the surface in another. The geometry just doesn't seem right there.

The geometry is actually not a problem. The two rifts are roughly 6000 miles apart. There are plenty of two-location combinations in/near the Riftworld that are that far apart with one being near the surface of an ocean and one way up in space. But given that, it's unlikely any of the other rifts will be at the surface of Riftworld. Most likely they'd be either deep underground or also up in space. Of course, this assumes the two universes have flat Euclidian geometries. If the Rift-verse has a non-Euclidian geometry, then all bets are off.


At one time, I came up with the idea that the Riftworld was a new, improved prison for the Snarl, built inside the OotSworld by some of the gods in a careful manner to avoid arousing the Snarl. And once it was complete, the current world/prison was no longer needed. The gods could destroy it while transplanting all its inhabitants to the new world. The problem they had was the gates. Those were built to strengthen the fabric of the universe around the rifts, and at the time they were built, were necessary. But now that the new world/prison was built, they were in the way. The old world couldn't be destroyed with those holding it together.

The gods needed someone to go around and destroy all the gates, but for whatever reason, couldn't do so directly. So they subtly influenced events so that an incompetent party would go around to all the gates and end up destroying them while trying to defend them.

However the events of strip 945 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html) knocked that hypothesis out the window. The Snarl is clearly not in a new prison, since it lashed out through the rift.

[Hopeless]

WAIT!:smalleek:
What if all they saw was an illusion?

Designed to draw them in since that might be what the Snarl needs to be able to break out of the prison?
Still don't know what happened after that linked page above so what if its just a lure?

[ti'esar]

WAIT!:smalleek:
What if all they saw was an illusion?

Designed to draw them in since that might be what the Snarl needs to be able to break out of the prison?
Still don't know what happened after that linked page above so what if its just a lure?

Why is this spoilered? :smallconfused:

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the ocean at least isn't an illusion. Splashes of water can be seen coming through the rift as the Snarl erupts out of it in 945 (which incidentally also suggests that the tendrils are at least somewhat physical).

[littlebum2002]

Why is this spoilered? :smallconfused:

There was a rule of thumb a LONG time ago (before you and I were on this forum) to put any predictions in spoilers bc Rich didn't like reading them.

[Bulldog Psion]

Though I like your theory, the one problem is that we've seen, in the objective, for-real "camera view" of the comic, the Snarl reach out of a rift and kill people nearby. That does, admittedly, give quite a bit more weight to the original story.

And "no fish" sounds a little ominous, too.

[Morty]

I'm not sure if the lack of life, or the fact that Soon's wife left a body behind, is a problem. The Snarl devours souls, but it's possible it leaves bodies intact - we haven't actually seen one of its victims on-screen outside of the crayon sections, so we don't know for sure. It might be possible that it can't affect actual physical matter - thus, it devoured the souls of every living thing on the first world, but did nothing to the world itself.

[zimmerwald1915]

we haven't actually seen one of its victims on-screen outside of the crayon sections, so we don't know for sure. It might be possible that it can't affect actual physical matter
One of its tendrils passes through an Empire of Sweat guard here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html). Because of his helmet, we can't see if he's actually dead, but he's clearly lifted off the ground and at the same time bears no visible wound.

[littlebum2002]

On a very sidetracked note, I can't wait to see a rift or a snarl in the new art style.

[Emanick]

I'm not sure if the lack of life, or the fact that Soon's wife left a body behind, is a problem. The Snarl devours souls, but it's possible it leaves bodies intact - we haven't actually seen one of its victims on-screen outside of the crayon sections, so we don't know for sure. It might be possible that it can't affect actual physical matter - thus, it devoured the souls of every living thing on the first world, but did nothing to the world itself.

There's no proof that any given scene from the crayon story is 100% accurate, but the Snarl destroying bodies and souls, rather than just souls, seems like a bizarre and arbitrary sort of thing for Soon and/or Shojo to lie about. If I were a betting man, I'd give at least 100-to-one odds that that particular detail from the Crayons of Time story is accurate.

[Fuzzypickles]

I actually am not sure if this book will culminate in the fight for Kraagor's Gate. The pattern thus far has been Gate (Dungeon Crawlin' Fools), No Gate (No Cure for the Paladin Blues), Gate (War and XPs), No Gate (Don't Split the Party).

So assuming Rich doesn't decide to subvert expectations (which he does, including subverting subversions), this book should be a Not Gate book.

Well, there was a good reason each book did or did not have a gate. After Book 1, the Order had no idea what the overarching plot actually was. A book was needed to set the stage for the upcoming plot. After Book 3, the Order was trounced and needed to reunite, so there's plenty of story to tell around that without a gate. But at the end of Book 5, all major characters are actively heading toward the next gate and Rich has been making it clear that there's a definite sense of time pressure on the Order to get there quickly. It seems difficult to cram a book worth of content into this time span, and it'd also kill a lot of the momentum of a big race to the gate if we have a several hundred page detour.

[Snails]

Not to add fuel to the fire, but the land masses in the planet on the crayon section are remarkably similar the sections to the landmasses that blackwing sees.

I would disagree.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html

[Snails]

There's no proof that any given scene from the crayon story is 100% accurate, but the Snarl destroying bodies and souls, rather than just souls, seems like a bizarre and arbitrary sort of thing for Soon and/or Shojo to lie about. If I were a betting man, I'd give at least 100-to-one odds that that particular detail from the Crayons of Time story is accurate.

The idea that Soon/Shojo are simply lying I find very uncompelling, in the first place. But it would be outright sloppy writing for such to be the case and not have other characters openly speculate or hint in the right direction over the course of the tale. For example, Redcloak seems to never contradict Shojo on even the smallest detail, while he apparently has his own completely independent sources of information.

Mind you, the Scribblers (and the Order) may well misunderstand important details, but that is a different from lying.

[Snails]

There are peculiarities of the apparent camera view of what Blackwing sees. One reasonable speculation is it is a world where stuff is not all yet "colored in". Or perhaps it is all covered in ice.

[ti'esar]

I would disagree.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html

While the landmasses don't seem to obviously be the same, it's been pointed out in the past that the rift-world does have landmasses in every visible direction - north, east, south, and west - in contrast to the OOTS-world, which is conspicuously lacking (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html) any large landmass in the east.

(That same picture, incidentally, suggests that the obscured areas on the riftworld are covered in ice).

[martianmister]

(That same picture, incidentally, suggests that the obscured areas on the riftworld are covered in ice).

They are clouds, not ice.

[ti'esar]

They are clouds, not ice.

639 has clouds visible at the bottom part of the panel that shows the world. They look distinctly different.

Plus, why would all the clouds be at the poles?

[littlebum2002]

639 has clouds visible at the bottom part of the panel that shows the world. They look distinctly different.

Plus, why would all the clouds be at the poles?

Shhh. It makes perfect sense for the globe to have one, continent size cloud at each pole.

[Jasdoif]

Plus, why would all the clouds be at the poles?....That's how Santa manages those covert takeoffs!

[martianmister]

639 has clouds visible at the bottom part of the panel that shows the world. They look distinctly different.

Plus, why would all the clouds be at the poles?

Then why there is green lands and blue seas under them?

[littlebum2002]

Then why there is green lands and blue seas under them?

Same way Belkar can smell without a nose. It (was) a stick figure comic, the graphics (weren't) actually meant to be an accurate representation of the surroundings.

I mean, if someone told you there's a huge continent sized white thing at both poles of a a planet, would you automatically assume it's a ginormous cloud, and that the rest of the world contains no clouds whatsoever? Or does ice make more sense?

[martianmister]

Same way Belkar can smell without a nose. It (was) a stick figure comic, the graphics (weren't) actually meant to be an accurate representation of the surroundings.

I mean, if someone told you there's a huge continent sized white thing at both poles of a a planet, would you automatically assume it's a ginormous cloud, and that the rest of the world contains no clouds whatsoever? Or does ice make more sense?

That doesn't make sense.

[Bulldog Psion]

I mean, if someone told you there's a huge continent sized white thing at both poles of a a planet, would you automatically assume it's a ginormous cloud, and that the rest of the world contains no clouds whatsoever? Or does ice make more sense?

Wait, did someone actually assume this? :smalleek:

[Kantaki]

It looks like ice to me. That you can see the continents coast just means that the ice is very clear. Or the ice over the ocean is thinner than the ice over the land. Or the land and the sea part of the icefield break the light differently. Or it could be to show the outline of the landmasses for the reader. The clouds in 639 look less solid.

[littlebum2002]

That doesn't make sense.

Neither does the idea that there are only two clouds on the entire globe, and both are at the poles, and both are the size of a continent.
(in other words, that there are clouds of the exact same size and exact same position of what an ice sheet would be on a normal globe. Huge coincidence if I say so myself)

Quick question: If the two huge white things on the two poles are clouds, then what are the white wispy things all over the rest of the globe? Are THOSE ice sheets maybe?

[Vrock_Summoner]

Neither does the idea that there are only two clouds on the entire globe, and both are at the poles, and both are the size of a continent.
(in other words, that there are clouds of the exact same size and exact same position of what an ice sheet would be on a normal globe. Huge coincidence if I say so myself)

Quick question: If the two huge white things on the two poles are clouds, then what are the white wispy things all over the rest of the globe? Are THOSE ice sheets maybe?

Try not to be too scared by this, but you're giving me tons of ideas for a campaign setting.

[SirKazum]

Then why there is green lands and blue seas under them?

I bring your attention to the "main" world in #639. Take a look at the ice sheets there. They look exactly the same as the white polar blotches in the Riftworld, including the outline of land beneath. As for "why", I assume it's just artistic choice, as littlebum2002 pointed out. But the point is - if you compare the two planets, the visuals in both of them (land, sea, ice, clouds) are exactly the same. Both planets have both ice and clouds visible, and the ice and clouds look different in both planets.

[ti'esar]

Which leads to the real question: why does the riftworld have such giant ice caps?

I mean, I don't think we have any real evidence to guess from, but we can at least speculate baselessly.

[martianmister]

Neither does the idea that there are only two clouds on the entire globe, and both are at the poles, and both are the size of a continent.
(in other words, that there are clouds of the exact same size and exact same position of what an ice sheet would be on a normal globe. Huge coincidence if I say so myself)

Quick question: If the two huge white things on the two poles are clouds, then what are the white wispy things all over the rest of the globe? Are THOSE ice sheets maybe?

You know, there is bigger and smaller clouds.

http://www.pveducation.org/sites/default/files/PVCDROM/Properties-of-Sunlight/Images/EARTH.GIF
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/climatechanging/climatescienceinfozone/exploringourfuturechoices/3point7/~/media/ClimateChanging/FindOutMore/Images/threeseventwoone_EarthCloudCover.ashx

And I never said that there is only two clouds.

[martianmister]

You can also see that there is other clouds under that white mass, so it can't be ice cap.

[Peelee]

You know, there is bigger and smaller clouds.

http://www.pveducation.org/sites/default/files/PVCDROM/Properties-of-Sunlight/Images/EARTH.GIF
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/climatechanging/climatescienceinfozone/exploringourfuturechoices/3point7/~/media/ClimateChanging/FindOutMore/Images/threeseventwoone_EarthCloudCover.ashx

And I never said that there is only two clouds.

I think you hit the last nail in your own coffin with those images. Going by satellite images, you can make out exactly where the landmass and the sea of Antarctica are, even under the ice layer.http://wanderingspace.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/1977l7ot6peptjpg.jpg

It does indeed appear as if The Giant looked at how caps appear, and drew them accordingly.

[martianmister]

I think you hit the last nail in your own coffin with those images.

I can't see how.

[Peelee]

I can't see how.


Going by satellite images, you can make out exactly where the landmass and the sea of Antarctica are, even under the ice layer.

It does indeed appear as if The Giant looked at how caps appear, and drew them accordingly.
If you want me to phrase it differently, the white bits on the planet in 672 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html) very closely resemble the ice caps (which are translucent) in the image I linked, and very much do not resemble the large cloud formations (which are opaque) in the pictures you linked.

[martianmister]

If you want me to phrase it differently, the white bits on the planet in 672 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html) very closely resemble the ice caps (which are translucent) in the image I linked, and very much do not resemble the large cloud formations (which are opaque) in the pictures you linked.

Then why is there clouds under it? Why is nortern cap disproportionately bigger?

[Gift Jeraff]

Same way Belkar can smell without a nose. It (was) a stick figure comic, the graphics (weren't) actually meant to be an accurate representation of the surroundings.

Can't the same be said about it being clouds?

Either way it looks weird. Maybe the ice-clouds are actually the Snarl at rest. Who knows.

[zimmerwald1915]

Then why is there clouds under it? Why is nortern cap disproportionately bigger?
Looking beyond the edges of the planet for a moment, we can see white cloud wisping around virtually all the right-hand side of the planet (an aside: this planet has a very thick atmosphere for a rocky world). That includes most of both polar caps, but also the clearly ocean-blue bit between them.

As for why the "northern" (we don't know if it's northern) cap is bigger, Blackwing probably wasn't looking from a point directly on the plane of the planet's rotation. In fact, it's much, much more likely that he wasn't, considering how much more space there is not on that plane than on it.

[Peelee]

Then why is there clouds under it? Why is nortern cap disproportionately bigger?

The clouds are over the ice, not under it. As for the disproportionately bigger bit, you're working under the assumption that you're seeing the planet perfectly oriented on the x/y axis, with the north pole at 12 o'clock and the south pole at 6 o'clock. It's a globe; it's not guaranteed to work that way. You could be seeing it from virtually any angle. But let's say it is perfectly positioned that way, and the northern ice cap is disproportionately large. It could easily be an issue explained in the strip's future. It just also just as easily be the Giant saying, "ok, so for the planet in the rift, let's give it a really big northern ice cap, because that's interesting and unique." It could be winter in rift-world. All of these are possible, plausible explanations that account for the fact that the white spots looks exactly like how our ice caps look from space, and not how our cloud cover looks from space.

The Giant could also easily have just drawn translucent massive cloud formations that happen to look remarkably similar to actual ice caps, of course. But that's highly coincidental, and I'll hold off on jumping into that school of thought until other, more likely avenues have been extinguished.

[Porthos]

Perhaps I've missed the answer, but how are these two strips any different?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html

martianmister, are you saying neither one is showing ice caps? Because that doesn't sound right to me.

[ti'esar]

It does sound extremely unlikely that the Giant, on two separate occasions, chose to draw giant continent-sized clouds covering a planet's poles.

[Bulldog Psion]

If those things aren't ice caps, I'll eat a glacier.

Unsalted.

[JustWantedToSay]

I think you hit the last nail in your own coffin with those images. Going by satellite images, you can make out exactly where the landmass and the sea of Antarctica are, even under the ice layer.http://wanderingspace.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/1977l7ot6peptjpg.jpg

It does indeed appear as if The Giant looked at how caps appear, and drew them accordingly.

This is what Antarctica's coastline really looks like:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/AntarcticaRockSurface.jpg

Looks completely different than the view from space. You absolutely cannot make out the difference between the landmass and the sea. All you're seeing is different ice formations and some mountains.

[Peelee]

This is what Antarctica's coastline really looks like:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/AntarcticaRockSurface.jpg

Looks completely different than the view from space. You absolutely cannot make out the difference between the landmass and the sea. All you're seeing is different ice formations and some mountains.

Question: your image of the coastline looks nearly identical to my image from space, if your image is rotated ~135° (most noticible here is the Antarctic Peninsula and its relation to the Chilean /othercountryicantremember's land). Is this not the exact coastline, or is this coincidental? And, if possible, can you link me to more information? Quick and dirty Google searching led me nowhere, and I'm actually more interested in this than in the debate it sprang from.

[nyjastul69]

Question: your image of the coastline looks nearly identical to my image from space, if your image is rotated ~135° (most noticible here is the Antarctic Peninsula and its relation to the Chilean /othercountryicantremember's land). Is this not the exact coastline, or is this coincidental? And, if possible, can you link me to more information? Quick and dirty Google searching led me nowhere, and I'm actually more interested in this than in the debate it sprang from.

After a few quick and dirty google searches, this (https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&ei=eXVyVfaZGrWNsQTQ_aOYCQ&q=what+does+antarctica+look+like+without+ice&oq=what+does+the+antarctic+look+like+wi&gs_l=mobile-gws-hp.1.0.0i22i30l5.1444.20844.0.21656.37.37.0.15.15. 0.353.4026.26j8j2j1.37.0.ernk_mobile.2..0...1.1.64 .mobile-gws-hp..3.34.2049.3.RVKpdB6cDe8) is what I got. The image searches I did showed some with much more water than others. I think those may be artist renditions of what it would look like if the ice melted, as opposed to simply being removed. I'm not sure though. I didn't spend much time on it.

Edit: I may be wrong. Some of the links are simply showing the underlying bedrock. It looks like Bedmap2 is the most accurate survey yet. Perhaps start your searching there.

[Emanick]

This is what Antarctica's coastline really looks like:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/AntarcticaRockSurface.jpg


This is a slight tangent, but that looks absolutely disgusting. :smalleek: :smalleek:

[Peelee]

After a few quick and dirty google searches, this (https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&ei=eXVyVfaZGrWNsQTQ_aOYCQ&q=what+does+antarctica+look+like+without+ice&oq=what+does+the+antarctic+look+like+wi&gs_l=mobile-gws-hp.1.0.0i22i30l5.1444.20844.0.21656.37.37.0.15.15. 0.353.4026.26j8j2j1.37.0.ernk_mobile.2..0...1.1.64 .mobile-gws-hp..3.34.2049.3.RVKpdB6cDe8) is what I got. The image searches I did showed some with much more water than others. I think those may be artist renditions of what it would look like if the ice melted, as opposed to simply being removed. I'm not sure though. I didn't spend much time on it.

Edit: I may be wrong. Some of the links are simply showing the underlying bedrock. It looks like Bedmap2 is the most accurate survey yet. Perhaps start your searching there.

Yeah, it looks like most of the images are projections of how it would look if the ice melted - which makes sense, since nearly all of them have the original shape of the continent in a different shade of blue. So it does indeed appear as if the space shot shows in clear detail the coastline of Antarctica.

[nyjastul69]

Yeah, it looks like most of the images are projections of how it would look if the ice melted - which makes sense, since nearly all of them have the original shape of the continent in a different shade of blue. So it does indeed appear as if the space shot shows in clear detail the coastline of Antarctica.

I find this discussion as, or more interesting, than the original. We have however derailed this one too much. I'm going to start a new one in the Mad Science and Grumpy Technology forum. New thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?419554-Antarctica-Without-Ice&p=19358812#post19358812) created.

[dtilque]

I used to think those white areas were clouds, but after reading this thread, I've realized they were ice. So there's two questions:

Q1. Why is the ice covering so much of the planet:

A1. The planet is in an ice age.


Q2. Why does it seem so asymmetric?

A2a. We're not seeing the planet from the equator

A2b. the glaciation is not symmetric between hemispheres.

I suspect A2b is the more likely answer. In the recent ice ages on Earth, the northern hemisphere have much more glaciation than the southern. This was due to the asymmetry of land distribution on Earth. There's much more land in high latitudes in the northern hemipshere than in the southern. And what land there is in the southern high latitudes stays glaciated even during interglacial periods.

Floating sea ice during ice ages also expands, but even here the northern hemisphere gets more of it. The extensive oceans in the south are good at redistributing heat from the tropics, while the continents in the north tend to restrict the currents.

[ti'esar]

Just as one further point (not that I think it's necessary) in favor of the white areas being ice caps - the recap at the beginning of BRitF, which features a simplified drawing of the riftworld in one panel, has them present but has no clouds.

[Bulldog Psion]

As for why the upper ice cap looks bigger on Snarlworld, I took one look at it and thought, "Cool, they're having an Ice Age!" :smallwink:

[Snails]

Regarding Real World coastlines under ice, the weight of ice substantially lowers the ground level. Most of Greenland is also "below" sea level. If all that ice were removed the ground would "pop" back up, which may or may not put it above the new higher sea level.

[Ornithologist]

Its likely that the inner world is in an ice age because there is no life on it to create the common greenhouse gasses, just what ever levels were present when the snarl awakened. Not to mention what kind of star would be in that plane heating it up.

At this point im prettty sure the offical awnser about the inner planet is "its round and has some landmasses, frozen water and solid water."

[ReturnOfTheKing]

The theory has been brought up on this forum numerous times that the planet in the rift is the "old" planet and therefore was not, in fact, destroyed like Shojo said it was but was instead transported inside the rift, or the snarl, or whatever, after which the "new" world was built around it.

so, following that chain of logic, if the last gate is destroyed (let's face it, it will be; there's no way we have 2 books left dedicated to one dungeon and saving the last gate) and the snarl gets out, would it actually destroy this world? Or would it instead bring this world with it into the rift, like it did the last one, after which the gods will simply create a new one on top of it (again) and be ignorant of the world inside (again)?

(I'm thinking it's something like a black hole: people (and gods) can go in, and live their lives as normal, they just can never go out again. Kinda like what Einstein said about black holes, except for the whole "dying at the singularity" part: "In fact, in a big enough black hole, you could live out the rest of your life pretty normally before dying at the singularity.")

If this situation happened, everyone, well all the sympathetic characters, Xykon excluded, would have their happy endings. The Order would have saved the world from "destruction", instead just moving it to another plane of existence. The goblins would have a seat at the table of the new world. You'll have a world inside a world inside a world, like a nesting doll, and each one getting progressively better as they are created. In fact, if this is true, the snarl could be seen as a good thing, "absorbing" the old worlds when its time for a new one to be created and then letting the gods fix (some) of their mistakes, before waiting a few thousand years and doing it again.

It's a cool idea, but wouldn't that be a little anticlimactic?

[littlebum2002]

You know, there is bigger and smaller clouds.

http://www.pveducation.org/sites/default/files/PVCDROM/Properties-of-Sunlight/Images/EARTH.GIF
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/climatechanging/climatescienceinfozone/exploringourfuturechoices/3point7/~/media/ClimateChanging/FindOutMore/Images/threeseventwoone_EarthCloudCover.ashx

And I never said that there is only two clouds.

Do you know what that big white thing at the bottom of your picture of Earth is? Spoiler alert, it's not a cloud.



Then why is there clouds under it? Why is nortern cap disproportionately bigger?

Same reason our southern cap is disproportionately bigger. A subtle mix of plate tectonics and randomness.