"Re-Thinking" WoD's 'canon' or lore...

[Bloodtomb]

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[SaurOps]

Different games will have different answers. Werewolf would ascribe those to be spirits as in Gaian Naturae, not as in Fae (except for a few Fianna, and even then, that'd be precious few "spirits"). Vampire often dives headlong into Noddist biblical literalism and would probably label them demons. Mage is frequently divided on the issue. The "correct" answer is generally what the ST wants it to be for the game. You aren't going to get a concise canonical answer; each line is essentially a different universe unto itself.

[Anonymouswizard]

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First, as an engineer I take high offence to the quoted passage, as there are quite a few differences between our science and Christianity (but enough about that, forum rules), and technology cares not for which religion was near it when it spawned, which is why very different cultures can make the same discoveries. The only place where this claim is definitely true (our society) is not even mentioned.

I also have problems with the fact that the author declares that science and technology cannot solve the problem on their own (science can, and has even worked out a way we may be able to do so without destroying our society, but people just don't want to do it), before not giving an alternative way. It's well known that the main problem is a mixture of society and infrastructure, and that it will take lots of work to change society to the point that a solution can safely be implemented, but I disagree that the correct solution is to make everybody religious in the same way, because when has religion ever stopped people from committing atrocities (hint, it has both failed and succeeded many times, so people would still exploit resources and the gap between exploiters and non-exploiters would just get larger). I believe any solution will probably have to be secular and involve both regulations and changes in standard procedures.

But onto game stuff.


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It... sort of has that in there. The original Order of Reason was very religious, and featured the religiously conservative mages, and they got along relatively okay with the scientists and alchemists (not perfectly, but that applies to the modern Technocracy as well). As far as I remember, as society started to develop thanks to the OoR turning their SCIENCE!!! into science they became more and more secular, until they reorganised into the Technocracy in Victorian times and any religious faith members had would have been a personal thing that should not get in the way of science! (the Society of Ether would later revive SCIENCE!!!). It's actually a pretty decent theme in terms of Sorcerer's Crusade, but core Ascension is mainly about the idea of whether safety and stagnation is better than freedom and danger. I'm planning to run a Technocracy game with the idea that the Technocracy are terrified of the fact that humanity is stagnating before they have the power to solve all their problems, and this is causing the Utopian faction to resurface.

TLDR; it's actually a great theme if playing during the Renaissance, but the changes that the Order of Reason went through to become the Technocracy make it very out of place with their stance in the modern day.


{scrubbed}

Interesting here, and certainly good ideas, I'm just convinced that it's presenting information in a very biased way and cherry picking facts (not all pre-Christianity religions were animistic). It's also very obviously attacking science from a religious viewpoint by saying it's tied with a religion that gives it these negative qualities.


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Eh, the timing is sort of wrong for the transition, but the idea is actually a decent one. Humans are also not, I'd argue, indifferent to nature, but in the WoD I could very easily see it happening. I think that this is worth developing, even if I have huge problems with what inspired it.

[JeenLeen]

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I think that's a legitimate way to read it, but multiple ways could fit in oWoD canon. These 'spirits' could be
1. umbrood, real spirits that dwell in the objects or are the 'soul' of the object (Mage or Werewolf)
2. fey, not actually spirits of the natural thing, but fey that defend it (Changeling/Fey)
3. mythological creatures. As #2, but mermaids, centaurs, etc. did live before reality became too static on earth (at least according to Mage)
4. (more of a stretch) nature-oriented mages/sorcerers or fera could have protected them, but they would probably be working with umbrood allies of nature (Werewolf/Mage)

But, as others have noted, the different types of supernaturals have different, and at times conflicting, lore, so it's possible any or all of those options could be the case.
I don't think any mages were really anti-nature until the Technocracy formed. The Order of Reason would have been more on 'dominate it', but so would the Order of Hermes. And the Wyrm's been trying to destroy it all for as long as anyone remembers.

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Sorry, guys, but the essay being discussed (along with the related topics) are too closely linked to religion for these boards. I'm gonna close this thread now.