Jumping into Pathfinder, Alchemist/Ranger

[pilvento]

Hello playgrounders...

My group and I are finally changing sistems and one of em is going for a pathfinder test run before we start his campaign (im the dm like... 90% of the time)

Another player of my group is going for a witch herehttp://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?418400-The-Witch-and-the-Wizard&highlight=loki+eremes


For me, Ranger was my fav class of all times and im unhealthy obsesed with characters from the Witcher series. I saw the mutation warrior archetipe for fighter and Im wondering how would you apply it to a ranger, does favored terrain sound good? mutagens at lvl 3 and mutagen discoveries at 8, 13 and 18 ?

Also, how good do you think it is the Witchguard archetipe? What other archetipes do you recomend?

[Extra Anchovies]

So you want a Ranger with Mutagen? Hm. Your suggestion of Favored Terrain would probably work. That's probably a buff, but IMO ranger needs a bit of a buff anyways. Not sure what a more even replacement would be.

Witchguard looks like a bit of a downgrade because of how strong animal companions are in Pathfinder. I don't think there are really any always-good Ranger archetypes; most of them are fairly campaign-dependent.

[grarrrg]

Witchguard looks like a bit of a downgrade because of how strong animal companions are in Pathfinder. I don't think there are really any always-good Ranger archetypes; most of them are fairly campaign-dependent.

Agreed that most Ranger archetypes are fairly even trade-offs overall.
Witchguard may lose Animal Companion, but that's the only "good" feature they lose, unlike a lot of other Ranger archetypes.
The extra Witch spells on the list could come in handy.
Being able to give fellow casters a defense boost is nice, but you'll want to buff your WIS for it to be worth the effort.
Overall decent.


I saw the mutation warrior archetipe for fighter and Im wondering how would you apply it to a ranger, does favored terrain sound good? mutagens at lvl 3 and mutagen discoveries at 8, 13 and 18 ?

Eh, fair enough.
I was going to argue that losing Favored Enemy was a more flavorful substitute, but Fighter loses Armor Training, not Weapon Training, so...Favored Terrain, sure, why not.

[Sacrieur]

Eh, fair enough.
I was going to argue that losing Favored Enemy was a more flavorful substitute, but Fighter loses Armor Training, not Weapon Training, so...Favored Terrain, sure, why not.

Any of the fighter archetypes are better than the fighter.

[grarrrg]

Any of the fighter archetypes are better than the fighter.

A: Not true. Weapon Bearer Squire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/weapon-bearer-squire) is just horrible, Unarmed Fighter is really only good for dipping, Blackjack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/blackjacket-fighter-archetype) is weak, and needs multiple Blackjacks to be most effective, etc...

B: The discussion was about attempting to shoe-horn in Mutagen as an acceptable replacement class feature for a Ranger. My initial thought was "Mutagen is generally for Offensive combat bonuses, it should replace Favored Enemy", but then noticed that the Mutagen Fighter trades away ARMOR bonus, and gets to stack Mutagen with Weapon bonuses. Thus I was "OK" suggesting that Favored Terrain was acceptable to trade for a Mutagen ability.

[Snowbluff]

*coughs and gestures and nothing in particular* (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement#TOC-Variant-Multiclassing)

[Extra Anchovies]

*coughs and gestures and nothing in particular* (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement#TOC-Variant-Multiclassing)


Alchemy: At 3rd level, he adds his character level as a competence bonus on all Craft (alchemy) checks and can use Craft (alchemy) to identify potions.

Bombs: At 7th level, he gains the ability to create a number of bombs per day equal to his Intelligence modifier + 1/2 his character level. The bombs deal damage as an alchemist of his character level, but since he doesn't have the alchemist's throw anything class feature, he doesn't add his Intelligence modifier to the damage.

Mutagen: At 11th level, he gains the mutagen class feature, with a duration equal to 10 minutes per character level. He counts as an alchemist for the purposes of drinking a mutagen.

Swift Poisoning: At 15th level, he gains the poison use and swift poisoning abilities.

Poison Immunity: At 19th level, he becomes immune to poison.

Hm. Alchemist VMC is actually one of the better ones. However, OP wants just the mutagen, so a homebrew archetype is probably better than forcing him to pick up some bombs and wait 10 levels to get the Hulk-juice.

What happens if a Mutation Warrior VMC's with Alchemist? Can they have two mutagens brewed at once, or do the abilities overlap instead of stacking?

[Snowbluff]

Hm. Alchemist VMC is actually one of the better ones. However, OP wants just the mutagen, so a homebrew archetype is probably better than forcing him to pick up some bombs and wait 10 levels to get the Hulk-juice. I mean, if he was really interested, and he's giving up the rangers primary "Class Feature" for it, I'd say he should play a vivisectionist, instead. :smalltongue:


What happens if a Mutation Warrior VMC's with Alchemist? Can they have two mutagens brewed at once, or do the abilities overlap instead of stacking?

An alchemist can only maintain one dose of mutagen at a time—if he brews a second dose, any existing mutagen becomes inert.
He can only have one dose ready. The abilities level separately, too. D:

[Eldaran]

Witchers use bombs too, so Alchemist VMC definitely fits... It's just unfortunate you have to wait until 11th to get the Mutagen. It's still not very good though, 15 and 19 are pretty terrible, most Alchemists do anything they can to trade out those features for archetypes. If they got a Discovery in there they could qualify for extra discovery and actually do some cool stuff.

[Xerlith]

Witchers use bombs too

No, they don't. They use crude magic spells (signs), premade elixirs and masterful swordplay combined with superhuman reflexes. The bombs are an addition that Geralt and only him learned to utilize as of the events of The Witcher 2 game. If a Witcher was made from the Alchemist class, it would be a Vivisectionist Internal Alchemist with Improved Feint.

Geralt's magic is more powerful and he's more versatile only because his mother was a Sorceress, one of the lucky non-sterile ones. Not to mention he is, let's call it limited edition, the only kid from the experimental batch that was applied a stronger dose of mutagens.

In game terms, none of the spells witchers use are stronger than 2nd level tops. Gust of Wind, Shield/Protection from Evil, Hold Portal/Alarm, Pyrotechnics, Calm Emotions/Charm Person. That's it.

I made a post with three Geralt-y builds on reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/38hi6h/how_would_you_build_a_witcher/crv57cx) where someone asked about the very same stuff.

Now, if VMCs allowed for archetypes, then swapping bombs for sneak attack would actually be pretty nice.

[pilvento]

Thanks for your responses, since Im just starting to read pathfinder I didnt know about variant multiclasing. I have to say its a creally good idea, but like one of you already said, I dont want to wait that long for mutagens.

Vivisectionist was one of my first calls for the build but I know the adventure will focus on aberrations and constructs so presition damage is kinda off the table.

How good dou you guys think the alchemist formulas are?

Im going for ranger as my base class cause I want to focus on dealing and taking damage as a front liner, looks to me that mutagens are the best selfb-buffs I can get for that role.

Stuff like barksking or shield can already be found in the ranger spell list.

[Spore]

Ask your DM to switch Mutagen and Use Poison for Animal Companion and switch the Ranger spell-list for the similar spell progression of Alchemist extracts (no Infusion discovery allowed).

[Ninjaxenomorph]

In Pathfinder a lot more types are affected by Sneak Attack. It's still an amazing boost.

As for how good extracts are? They're spells, so that tells you what pretty much everybody thinks of them.

Either way, you might want to look at Slayer. A lot ranger, a little bit rogue, and it's one of the better martial classes; the Pureblade archetype in Advanced Class Origins might be useful as well, since it gets specific bonuses against aberrations, while still keeping studied target.

[Sacrieur]

A: Not true. Weapon Bearer Squire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/weapon-bearer-squire) is just horrible, Unarmed Fighter is really only good for dipping, Blackjack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/blackjacket-fighter-archetype) is weak, and needs multiple Blackjacks to be most effective, etc...

Good god I didn't think it was possible but it is.

;___;

[Extra Anchovies]

Ask your DM to switch Mutagen and Use Poison for Animal Companion and switch the Ranger spell-list for the similar spell progression of Alchemist extracts (no Infusion discovery allowed).

That's a good idea. Might be nice to provide some discoveries to enhance the mutagen. Maybe mutagen at 1st level, no hunter's bond, extracts instead of spells, change Wis-based class features to Int-based, and let them take an alchemist discovery instead of favored terrain each time it comes up?

[Spore]

That's a good idea. Might be nice to provide some discoveries to enhance the mutagen. Maybe mutagen at 1st level, no hunter's bond, extracts instead of spells, change Wis-based class features to Int-based, and let them take an alchemist discovery instead of favored terrain each time it comes up?

This is then basically Alchemist with d10 and worse extract progression. Might as well play Alchemist then. ^^

[Xerlith]

This is then basically Alchemist with d10 and worse extract progression. Might as well play Alchemist then. ^^

Ahem. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator) There's a class that is a ranger-esque alchemist, you know...

[Extra Anchovies]

This is then basically Alchemist with d10 and worse extract progression. Might as well play Alchemist then. ^^

Nah, they'd be limited to the mutation warrior discovery list (and only get half as many), but in exchange they get favored enemy, combat style, and full BAB. It'd probably fall somewhere between Alchemist and Ranger in terms of power, which is nicely in the T3 range.

[Eldaran]

Vivisectionist was one of my first calls for the build but I know the adventure will focus on aberrations and constructs so presition damage is kinda off the table.


Good news, the only things in Pathfinder that are automatically immune to precision damage are formless things like Oozes, Elementals, and Incorporeal creatures. You can sneak attack constructs and aberrations (aberrations weren't immune in 3.5 anyway) just fine, unless the particular creature has immunity.


The bombs are an addition that Geralt and only him learned to utilize as of the events of The Witcher 2 game.

This is untrue, bombs were in Witcher 1 (http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/The_Witcher_bombs) as well.

[pilvento]

So, after learning that the rest of my party is goning to be a witch, a cleric and a wizard I got my dm to consider the option of me playing a mundane hybrid class, the slayer.

Adding mutagens and discoverys to the "slayer talent" feature, the progresion now looks like this.

Hit die, d10, fullbab, skills 6+int, good fort and ref saves.

Special features

1- Studied target, Track
2- Bonus feat
3- Sneak attack +1d6
4- Mutagens
5- 2nd Studied target
6- Bonus feat, Sneak attack +2d6
7- Stalker
8- Spontaneus healing mutagen
9- Evasion, Sneak attack +3d6
10- 3rd Studied target, Bonus feat
11- Swift tracker
12- Greater mutagen, Sneak attack +4d6
13- Quarry
14- Bonus feat
15- 4th Studied target, Sneak attack +5d6
16- Grand mutagen
17- Imporved evasion
18- Bonus feat, Sneak attack +6d6
19- improved quarry
20- 5th Studied target, Master slayer

[Extra Anchovies]

So, after learning that the rest of my party is goning to be a witch, a cleric and a wizard I got my dm to consider the option of me playing a mundane hybrid class, the slayer.

Adding mutagens and discoverys to the "slayer talent" feature, the progresion now looks like this.

Hit die, d10, fullbab, skills 6+int, good fort and ref saves.

Special features

1- Studied target, Track
2- Bonus feat
3- Sneak attack +1d6
4- Mutagens
5- 2nd Studied target
6- Bonus feat, Sneak attack +2d6
7- Stalker
8- Spontaneus healing mutagen
9- Evasion, Sneak attack +3d6
10- 3rd Studied target, Bonus feat
11- Swift tracker
12- Greater mutagen, Sneak attack +4d6
13- Quarry
14- Bonus feat
15- 4th Studied target, Sneak attack +5d6
16- Grand mutagen
17- Imporved evasion
18- Bonus feat, Sneak attack +6d6
19- improved quarry
20- 5th Studied target, Master slayer

Although letting the Slayer pick up mutagen is a good buff when the rest of your party is T1, Slayer isn't any better than ranger (and the lack of spells or an animal companion are bad). Why not go Vivisectionist Alchemist for more sneak attack and to get extracts?