Effects on a grappler

[Allianis]

I brought up a question on a different thread, but I didn't want to force that thread onto a tanget topic, so here we are.

Let's say that character X initiates a grapple on character Y and succeeds all the checks. Both X and Y are grappled. However, X suddenly becomes stunned for some reason. Does this cause the grapple to break, or does Y still need to take an action to break the grapple? What about other effects, like paralysis, or maybe even nauseated? I find it hard to believe that a character can still be actively wrestling something after being hit with a full-blown petrificus totalus.

Has anyone run into this before?

[Andreaz]

I brought up a question on a different thread, but I didn't want to force that thread onto a tanget topic, so here we are.

Let's say that character X initiates a grapple on character Y and succeeds all the checks. Both X and Y are grappled. However, X suddenly becomes stunned for some reason. Does this cause the grapple to break, or does Y still need to take an action to break the grapple? What about other effects, like paralysis, or maybe even nauseated? I find it hard to believe that a character can still be actively wrestling something after being hit with a full-blown petrificus totalus.

Has anyone run into this before?

If the grappler can't take the action that sustains the grapplee, the grapple ends.

[Venger]

I brought up a question on a different thread, but I didn't want to force that thread onto a tanget topic, so here we are.

Let's say that character X initiates a grapple on character Y and succeeds all the checks. Both X and Y are grappled. However, X suddenly becomes stunned for some reason. Does this cause the grapple to break, or does Y still need to take an action to break the grapple? What about other effects, like paralysis, or maybe even nauseated? I find it hard to believe that a character can still be actively wrestling something after being hit with a full-blown petrificus totalus.

Has anyone run into this before?

which is why they can't do this. salient RAW:


Escape from Grapple
You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s).

if your opponent can't roll their opposed check, you'll automatically beat them and be able to leave if you want to.

[Psyren]

In addition, stunned characters drop anything they're holding. Presumably this extends to grapples.

[Allianis]

In addition, stunned characters drop anything they're holding. Presumably this extends to grapples.

I would also wonder if the fact that you cannot take an action works against you. If you are stunned, dazed, nauseated, paralysed, etc, would you not be able to make the opposed grapple check necessary should your opponent choose to try to break or escape the grapple? Daze specifically allows you to defend yourself normally, so I could see you being able to try to prevent a pin, but what if he's trying to escape?

[Venger]

I would also wonder if the fact that you cannot take an action works against you. If you are stunned, dazed, nauseated, paralysed, etc, would you not be able to make the opposed grapple check necessary should your opponent choose to try to break or escape the grapple? Daze specifically allows you to defend yourself normally, so I could see you being able to try to prevent a pin, but what if he's trying to escape?

that's correct. those statuses prevent you from rolling opposed grapple checks.

[ace rooster]

I assume we are talking about 3.5. I haven't looked at pathfinder too closely, but I understand it is different.

Firstly, once a grapple is initiated there is no distinction between grappler and grappled. The same rules apply to both.

Secondly, grapples don't end passively. Maintaining a grapple is not an action, escaping one is. Even if you are going to auto win the check you will still have to take the standard/attack action.

But yes, a stunned character cannot oppose a grapple check.

[StreamOfTheSky]

that's correct. those statuses prevent you from rolling opposed grapple checks.

I disagree. Stun releases the grapple because you drop anything held. But simply making opposed checks against someone trying to escape is not an action. If it is, show me where it says it.
The dazed/nauseated/etc... grappler could not go for a pin, damage you, or anything else. But you'd still have to fight your way out of his grasp.

[Heliomance]

I disagree. Stun releases the grapple because you drop anything held.

But the rules make no distinction between the grappler and the grapplee. If the initiating party being stunned automatically ended the grapple, then either party being stunned would end it. And I think you can agree that that's ridiculous.

[StreamOfTheSky]

But the rules make no distinction between the grappler and the grapplee. If the initiating party being stunned automatically ended the grapple, then either party being stunned would end it. And I think you can agree that that's ridiculous.

No, the rules cover it. If at least one person wants to hold on, the grapple continues till the unwilling party or parties win a grapple check or escape artist. If someone's stunned they can't hold on, but if the other person wants to be in the grapple, it goes on...

[Heliomance]

No, the rules cover it. If at least one person wants to hold on, the grapple continues till the unwilling party or parties win a grapple check or escape artist. If someone's stunned they can't hold on, but if the other person wants to be in the grapple, it goes on...

Except that the only check for whether someone wants to hold on is on their turn. So if one participant in a grapple is stunned, the grapple continues until the next time one of them has a turn, at which point the stunned person auto-fails the check. The grapple does not end immediately a participant is stunned, as there is no mechanism to check for grapple end at that point.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Except that the only check for whether someone wants to hold on is on their turn. So if one participant in a grapple is stunned, the grapple continues until the next time one of them has a turn, at which point the stunned person auto-fails the check. The grapple does not end immediately a participant is stunned, as there is no mechanism to check for grapple end at that point.

I guess technically by RAW it would last until the other party's turn when s/he uses a grapple to escape and the stunned grappler is unable to hold onto anything and thus cannot roll to resist it. But not until the stunned person's turn, if that comes up later than the other grappler's turn.
I'd just let the grapple end immediately, but that's a houserule it seems.