Spiderman: Renew Your Vows

[t209]

I don't know what to say about this, but here we go.
This is when Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson were married and had a daughter. Fortunately, Dan Slott actually respectful and never murdered them with glee (*flashback* The Amazing Friends, nooo!). Spiderman fought with Venom, who kidnapped Mary Jane and their daughter. All of them survived after Venom was put into a house fire. He decided to retire and learn responsibility. But the whole story seem upbeat until Darkseid Regent destroyed the Avengers with Richard Rider Nova and rule it in the name of Dr. Doom.
Any comments?

[Psyren]

I didn't understand a word of that. I just want to know, does it really undo OMD?

[t209]

I didn't understand a word of that. I just want to know, does it really undo OMD?
Well, more like a "What If" in a world similar to theme park.

[Kitten Champion]

I didn't understand a word of that. I just want to know, does it really undo OMD?

It's just another Secret Wars tie-in mini-series, so.... probably not, no. Though, I don't know what sort of Spider-Man they intend to launch after this.

[Metahuman1]

No it doesn't. Unlike, you know, every bit of hinting and advertising it's had the entire time it's been coming down the pipeline has lead us to believe it would do.

[Psyren]

Actually, I think it kinda does (http://kotaku.com/tomorrow-s-spider-man-comic-undoes-one-of-marvel-s-stup-1708455771) - it's not outright erasing OMD but they seem to be trending toward a DC-style convergence of continuities once this big event is over with. This version of Peter may be the one we end up with at the end of the day.

[Metahuman1]

Your article says Teasing. Teasing isn't "Were doing this." it's "Were taunting you with the prospect that maybe will do this if you do what we want you too." and is far more often then not associated with "but that's an illusion and were really just gonna get what we can form you and then do the thing you didn't want like we were gonna do originally because we wanted to do it and don't care for you so hurting you is just a bonus."

Fit's Quesada's established attitudes towards the readership flawlessly.


You wanna prove me wrong? After Secret Wars is over and the universe is reconfigured, Show me spider-man issues in main universe were we have a married Peter Parker and MJ with a daughter, as part of the main Canon. Have this NOT be a thing that is only mentioned once or twice and then forgotten all together in favor of just trying to pretend that Miles is the only spiderman that matters or ever mattered, and show me that they didn't turn around and just kill them off or have them divorce immediately or something in order to have a shock sales boost and get to have there cake and eat it too.

Marvel offered me a LOT of slaps to the face over the years with certain of there higher listed characters, and spiderman is one of if not the worst offender(s). They want to prove to me there not still full of it, there gonna have to actually do the work and meet the goals. There not unreasonable Goals. When they've done that, they can talk to me about spiderman. When they've done that for other characters, they can talk to me about them as well. They haven't.

[t209]

Reread Renew Your Vows.
Actually Richard Riders and other New Warriors' fate are unknown. And MJ's pretty cunning in the story, which she draw Venom to burning building with sirens from fire engine to weaken Venom. Then Spiderman killed Venom along with Eddie Brock in a burning building, which he collapsed it.

[Dienekes]

Reread Renew Your Vows.
Actually Richard Riders and other New Warriors' fate are unknown. And MJ's pretty cunning in the story, which she draw Venom to burning building with sirens from fire engine to weaken Venom. Then Spiderman killed Venom along with Eddie Brock in a burning building, which he collapsed it.

MJ was always pretty awesome. She managed to beat a few Spiderman villains (usually by recognizing things that are out of place) but one glorious time she kicked one guys ass with a baseball bat. I liked MJ, one of the very few token romance characters I can actually say that about.

[Psyren]

MJ was always pretty awesome. She managed to beat a few Spiderman villains (usually by recognizing things that are out of place) but one glorious time she kicked one guys ass with a baseball bat. I liked MJ, one of the very few token romance characters I can actually say that about.

You mean this?

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/agdtlt0hhrftfdnuhjix.png

[Dienekes]

You're missed the part where she's standing over his unconscious body swinging the bat like a crazy woman, but yeah, that'd be the one.

[Prime32]

You mean this?I prefer the one with Aunt May (http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Aunt+may+is+kind+of+a+badass_916e16_5212023.jpg). :smalltongue:

[t209]

Yeah, I kinda feel angry about Sam Raimi's treatment of MJ (an annoying damsel) in hindsight after I read the comic version of her.

[t209]

Guess who's cameoing in Renew Your Vows?
http://i61.tinypic.com/iwuiid.png
Definitely, Richard Rider during his time as New Warriors. Guess Dan Slott might be RR fan.

[TheThan]

Yeah, I kinda feel angry about Sam Raimi's treatment of MJ (an annoying damsel) in hindsight after I read the comic version of her.

I've been angry over her treatment in those movies since they hit the big screen.

[Psyren]

I prefer the one with Aunt May (http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Aunt+may+is+kind+of+a+badass_916e16_5212023.jpg). :smalltongue:

So is Chameleon's entire purpose to get owned by Peter's friends and family for being a dumbass?

[t209]

I've been angry over her treatment in those movies since they hit the big screen.
I know. I didn't even know her unique traits until recently.To be fair, I only read one Ultimate Spiderman comic (possibly from family friend) back and ripoffs in Myanmar/Burma. To be fair, JMS run was too early during the debut of film and Agent Venom wasn't created yet.
Even sadder than this was also when I discovered One More Day's retcon and Spiderisland* where she became awesome Spiderman due to Spiderman's radioactive spunk (Sorry, TheThan, Spiderman: Reign is canon now and the old clone saga had one though). I was hoping Peter to repopulate Parker line with mini-redheads until Superior Spiderman (I don't care about "diversity" or "look isn't everything" or "raising an army and not being noticed as impostor by that point").
*the only good thing from Dan Slott's run.

[TheThan]

Haha, I stopped reading comics a while ago. So it doesn’t bother me so much anymore (maybe i'm just jaded?). Different writers take things in different directions (sometimes as far off the beaten path as possible).

But most versions of MJ gives the reader some sense of how awesome she is... And then Sam Raimi happened.

Come to think of it, the only character I thought was a good portrayal of any of the characters in those movies was J. Jonah Jameson; and he’s a colossal donkey.

[Dienekes]

Haha, I stopped reading comics a while ago. So it doesn’t bother me so much anymore (maybe i'm just jaded?). Different writers take things in different directions (sometimes as far off the beaten path as possible).

But most versions of MJ gives the reader some sense of how awesome she is... And then Sam Raimi happened.

Come to think of it, the only character I thought was a good portrayal of any of the characters in those movies was J. Jonah Jameson; and he’s a colossal donkey.

I thought the first movie had Jameson down perfect. Complete ass, utterly self-centered, arrogant, and narrow-minded. But when the Green Goblin comes barging into his office demanding the identity of the photographer who takes pictures of Spidey, he starts lying through his teeth to protect some idiot kid he's met about 3 times who is right outside his room.

[TheThan]

I thought the first movie had Jameson down perfect. Complete ass, utterly self-centered, arrogant, and narrow-minded. But when the Green Goblin comes barging into his office demanding the identity of the photographer who takes pictures of Spidey, he starts lying through his teeth to protect some idiot kid he's met about 3 times who is right outside his room.

Oh yeah totally agree.
or in the second film, where he starts mourning spiderman quitting. then when he steals back his costume (which J.J had hanging on his wall like a trophy), he responds with an immediate "He's a menace!". Classic.

I came for spiderman, I stayed for J.J.

[Psyren]

I thought the first movie had Jameson down perfect. Complete ass, utterly self-centered, arrogant, and narrow-minded. But when the Green Goblin comes barging into his office demanding the identity of the photographer who takes pictures of Spidey, he starts lying through his teeth to protect some idiot kid he's met about 3 times who is right outside his room.

I think it was more "protect a poor idiot kid from an obvious maniac metahuman."


Oh yeah totally agree.
or in the second film, where he starts mourning spiderman quitting. then when he steals back his costume (which J.J had hanging on his wall like a trophy), he responds with an immediate "He's a menace!". Classic.

I came for spiderman, I stayed for J.J.

I liked Raimi-Octopus too actually. My only issue with Raimi is that he really has a thing for his villains "Golluming."

[t209]

I think it was more "protect a poor idiot kid from an obvious maniac metahuman."



I liked Raimi-Octopus too actually. My only issue with Raimi is that he really has a thing for his villains "Golluming."
Yeah, would have worked if they managed to get The Lizard (Curt Connors) on screen.
edit: so nobody commenting on Richard Rider cameo?

[Psyren]

You wanna prove me wrong? After Secret Wars is over and the universe is reconfigured, Show me spider-man issues in main universe were we have a married Peter Parker and MJ with a daughter, as part of the main Canon. Have this NOT be a thing that is only mentioned once or twice and then forgotten all together in favor of just trying to pretend that Miles is the only spiderman that matters or ever mattered, and show me that they didn't turn around and just kill them off or have them divorce immediately or something in order to have a shock sales boost and get to have there cake and eat it too.

Don't hold back, tell me how you really feel :smallbiggrin:

I agree, if they go with single Spidey after all this it'll be a pretty blatant bait-and-switch. But given the media attention to this version of the narrative, I think they would have had a clarifying "curb your enthusiasm" style post from the Marvelheads by now, if only to prevent the massive backlash later.

I'm not sure they can really swing the daughter though. (Heh - swing.)

[Metahuman1]

Don't hold back, tell me how you really fell :smallbiggrin:

I agree, if they go with single Spidey after all this it'll be a pretty blatant bait-and-switch. But given the media attention to this version of the narrative, I think they would have had a clarifying "curb your enthusiasm" style post from the Marvelheads by now, if only to prevent the massive backlash later.

I'm not sure they can really swing the daughter though. (Heh - swing.)

No. Reasonable people with two braincells to rub together between them who aren't actively full or nothing but Malace and Contempt for there customer base would do that.

That does not describe people like Jeoph Lobe, Joe Quesada or Mark Miller. Especially Quesada, whom, until my above conditions are Met along with one or two other things (Like getting Civil War out of Canon.), I remain convinced as at least some pull in the comics division after his promotion.

[t209]

That does not describe people like Jeoph Lobe, Joe Quesada or Mark Miller. Especially Quesada, whom, until my above conditions are Met along with one or two other things (Like getting Civil War out of Canon.), I remain convinced as at least some pull in the comics division after his promotion.
Well, if MCU's Civil War was sucessful, I think that part might stay for "reasons".

[Metahuman1]

If it's successful. I honestly think this one could VERY easily blow up in there faces since there's only 1 way to make it work with out wrecking a major chunk of there franchise, and the only man I think involved who's smart enough to get that isn't involved now.

[TheThan]

I liked Raimi-Octopus too actually. My only issue with Raimi is that he really has a thing for his villains "Golluming."

Yeah, Rami-Octupus did quite well as well.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Either way I don't see the need for another Josh Whedon Avengers. Changing out talent didn't hurt Iron Man 3.

[Metahuman1]

Debatable (I know a LOT of people who were LIVID that Madirine wasn't the actual bad guy and was just a hox, even though the later released one shot implied otherwise.).

But even if it wasn't, Quesada wasn't in a serious position to influence Iron Man 3 with out Wheadon there to tell him to take a hike. He is in that position now. With Civil War, one of the worst story lines Marvels done in it's entire tenure as a thing that exists, and was written under quesada's watch with his utmost approval as written.

[Dienekes]

Debatable (I know a LOT of people who were LIVID that Madirine wasn't the actual bad guy and was just a hox, even though the later released one shot implied otherwise.).

But even if it wasn't, Quesada wasn't in a serious position to influence Iron Man 3 with out Wheadon there to tell him to take a hike. He is in that position now. With Civil War, one of the worst story lines Marvels done in it's entire tenure as a thing that exists, and was written under quesada's watch with his utmost approval as written.

Ehh, Markus and McFeely wrote Winter Soldier, which was in my opinion the best Marvel movie of Phase 2, better than Avengers 2 certainly. I'm not willing to write it out as a failure just yet.

[Metahuman1]

Maybe. I'd be less worried about if Quesada would just come out and say "So, yeah, um, when I did the comic I screwed it up every possible way I could, so, yeah, I'm REALLY sorry about that and I promise the movie is gonna do it loads better." or something. Which he hasn't. And that just makes it more worrying.


Also the Winter Soldier Comic was pretty good, the only thing that ruined it was being tied into the problematic Avengers Disassembled story line and then the utter train wreck that was Civil War.

[Dienekes]

Maybe. I'd be less worried about if Quesada would just come out and say "So, yeah, um, when I did the comic I screwed it up every possible way I could, so, yeah, I'm REALLY sorry about that and I promise the movie is gonna do it loads better." or something. Which he hasn't. And that just makes it more worrying.


Also the Winter Soldier Comic was pretty good, the only thing that ruined it was being tied into the problematic Avengers Disassembled story line and then the utter train wreck that was Civil War.

Unless they're literally caught embezzling funds, no business person will ever say that. Writer's might get away with it, but not an industry leader.

[Metahuman1]

Sure they will. If this Bombs and Disney doesn't just cut to firing him, they'll probably make him go out and profusely apologize for it personally in the hopes of not tanting the valuable property.


Not dissimilar to what they forced him to do after Sam Wilsons first issue of Captain America featured him causally calling every member of a real life political movement and ideology racists for holding that Ideology, as Captain America, which Quesada just so happens to personally despise and be on opposite end of the spectrum form. In other words, Quesada saying through a Captain America that if you don't agree 100% with Joe Quesada's politics and preferred political affiliation, your just a racist.


Disney got a lot of heat VERY quickly since this was exactly the sort of thing people were afraid was gonna happen if we had an African American Cap, and Quesada made those fears founded and realized as something that came to pass right out the starting gate. So Disney had all future printings change the dialog to something inoffensive and made Quesada go out and personally apologize for it. Give the way Quesada has always behaved in the past, the only way they could have gotten him to do that would have been to threaten him with a rapid, unceremonious firing and permanent blacklisting form the company, but they did do it.

I just hope they had the foresight after that to similarly threaten him if Civil War is poorly received.

[t209]

Metahuman 1, you were right about the topic's comic being a shocker
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/11119/111193100/4659264-1633337330-ASM20.jpg
Just hope that it turned out to be Spiderman's discussion with Marvel (yes, they do exist in Marvel universe and actually publish comics same as the ones in the universe) on making Spiderman franchise.

[Psyren]

I get so confused in these threads, what is that picture showing? And to reiterate my opening question, is One More Day retconned or are they not doing that?

[Thrudd]

I get so confused in these threads, what is that picture showing? And to reiterate my opening question, is One More Day retconned or are they not doing that?

Yeah, the picture shows nothing. We don't know what the state of the universe will be after secret wars, what Peter Parker will remember or what version of him will be there.

http://m.ign.com/articles/2015/06/30/relaunched-amazing-spider-man-goes-high-tech

This article seems to imply that Peter Parker won't be married, but whether one of the love triangle will be MJ, who knows. It looks like they are picking up and expanding from where they were with Amazing Spider-Man pre secret wars. So no retcon technically, though I wouldn't be surprised if they left the door open for a relationship with MJ, since they now have their single high school spidey in Miles Morales.

[Psyren]

I'd be fine with a softer retcon of "they're together without a daughter" personally. I mean, other than damselling her left and right I'm not sure what they would really do with one.

[Sith_Happens]

I'd be fine with a softer retcon of "they're together without a daughter" personally. I mean, other than damselling her left and right I'm not sure what they would really do with one.

Have her become Spider-Girl in a What If, give her her own series due to her inevitable popularity, and have her survive Spider-Verse thereby leaving open the possibility of immigration to 616? (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Girl) Because that's what I'd do.:smallwink:

[Psyren]

Have her become Spider-Girl in a What If, give her her own series due to her inevitable popularity, and have her survive Spider-Verse thereby leaving open the possibility of immigration to 616? (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Girl) Because that's what I'd do.:smallwink:

They can do all that whether they pop her out/give her screentime in 616 or not though.

[Dienekes]

I'd be fine with a softer retcon of "they're together without a daughter" personally. I mean, other than damselling her left and right I'm not sure what they would really do with one.

Ehh, Parker was originally made to show how balancing life and superheroics would work. Simply showing how having a child changes his life and dealing with that would be an interesting change for the character.

Much more interesting than any "who's he dating now?" plots, anyway.

[Psyren]

Ehh, Parker was originally made to show how balancing life and superheroics would work. Simply showing how having a child changes his life and dealing with that would be an interesting change for the character.

Much more interesting than any "who's he dating now?" plots, anyway.

Who said anything about dating? I'm fine with him being in a committed relationship with MJ; in fact I'd prefer it. It's the daughter specifically I don't see a need for yet, and room for all kinds of missteps by Marvel if she's there.

[Metahuman1]

Who said anything about dating? I'm fine with him being in a committed relationship with MJ; in fact I'd prefer it. It's the daughter specifically I don't see a need for yet, and room for all kinds of missteps by Marvel if she's there.

Yes, like getting rid of her in a story she was barely if at all involved in up to that point. And no, that's not just a bad thing when Marvel Does it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXtawcGpGq8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3TxNHEOA-A

And the big finisher.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQbc7e-RZ08

[Dienekes]

Who said anything about dating? I'm fine with him being in a committed relationship with MJ; in fact I'd prefer it. It's the daughter specifically I don't see a need for yet, and room for all kinds of missteps by Marvel if she's there.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I think adding the element of Peter Parker as a father, and dealing with how that would necessitate a change in his behavior could be a good story. Since Peter Parker was always about showing how mixing super heroics and the real life could get messy and entangled and a struggle. Even if you keep the daughter completely out of super villains grasps she can still serve that purpose.

I think dealing with that side of life would make a far more interesting and a different story than a lot of what has been pushed down with superheroes. My personal least favorite has always been stories about how hard it is for the hero to get or keep a date. Which is pretty much what he's been doing after his annulment with MJ. It's boring.

[Psyren]

Yes, like getting rid of her in a story she was barely if at all involved in up to that point. And no, that's not just a bad thing when Marvel Does it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXtawcGpGq8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3TxNHEOA-A

And the big finisher.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQbc7e-RZ08

Man, I loved the GAY FOR JUSTICE review :smallbiggrin: (And Green Arrow and Green Lantern beat up an entire posse of supervillains offscreen, including Black Manta, Scarecrow, Polaris and Bizarro? Daheck? Why not just throw Captain Cold and Slade on the pile while we're at it?)


Sorry, I should have been more clear. I think adding the element of Peter Parker as a father, and dealing with how that would necessitate a change in his behavior could be a good story. Since Peter Parker was always about showing how mixing super heroics and the real life could get messy and entangled and a struggle. Even if you keep the daughter completely out of super villains grasps she can still serve that purpose.

I think dealing with that side of life would make a far more interesting and a different story than a lot of what has been pushed down with superheroes. My personal least favorite has always been stories about how hard it is for the hero to get or keep a date. Which is pretty much what he's been doing after his annulment with MJ. It's boring.

And again, I'm not asking that they stick with the annulment. Have him deal with married life - there's still a lot there, with MJ, they can explore. I simply see the daughter either being damseled, misused or stealing the spotlight from MJ, who is a strong character in her own right.

[Dragonus45]

And again, I'm not asking that they stick with the annulment. Have him deal with married life - there's still a lot there, with MJ, they can explore. I simply see the daughter either being damseled, misused or stealing the spotlight from MJ, who is a strong character in her own right.

You say damseled like its a bad thing.

Anyways, so what if she spends a chunk of her childhood being the target of super villains. We know May grows up to be an awesome hero in her own right and being weak then becoming strong only makes her stronger in my mind.

[Psyren]

You say damseled like its a bad thing.

"The superhero's family in peril as plot macguffin" is tired and overdone, yes.



Anyways, so what if she spends a chunk of her childhood being the target of super villains. We know May grows up to be an awesome hero in her own right and being weak then becoming strong only makes her stronger in my mind.

I'd much rather skip to the good stuff then if she must exist at all.

[Metahuman1]

And then there was the matter of what they did to Lian and Roy Harper.

And that's unfortunately part of it. Unless it's like "Adopted older kid who already had enough powers/training to handle themselves.", or "Holy crap this kid is already god like I'm terrified of what it's gonna be like as an adult.", then you have to go through the "Needs to be protected" phase. But it's just a phase, they are suppose to out grow it.



Unless Mr. Quesada get's near it anyway, or they opt to murder the child for the shock value.

[Closet_Skeleton]

If they were actually capable of telling interesting stories about a very young May Parker; Franklin Richards would be grown up by now. To have characters grow up, they'd have to really commit to it on a universe wide basis rather than having the mess of characters all aging at different rates.


You say damseled like its a bad thing.


'damseled' is a bad thing because its a verb, it implies that your taking someone who isn't a damsel in distress and turning them into one. That's not the same thing as having a character who is that archetype, which isn't good or bad, just boring due to being over-used.

From the context I assume that the first use of the non-word in this thread was to mean 'put in distress' but that's the problem with using words that don't have a definition. Once they get quoted the context vanishes and confuses things.

[Thrudd]

Unless Mr. Quesada get's near it anyway, or they opt to murder the child for the shock value.
Ultimate universe is gone now. I don't think we'll see too much murdering of babies for shock value. I hope not. Ultimatum was the worst. I think they learned there's a limit to the value of shock value.

[Metahuman1]

Ultimatum set the tone for the entire remaining run of the Ultimate universe, and we've had Avengers vs. X-men, One More Day an Civil War with the Super-human Registration act and all the horrors that was made of, Dark Avengers and a long long long list of other things since Ultimatum came out.


They have proven again and again they have learned nothing from Ultimatum. If they did, Civil War wouldn't be getting a sequel comic and movie adaptation and OMD would have been retconned quite some time ago, and AvX wouldn't have happened at all.

[Psyren]

If they were actually capable of telling interesting stories about a very young May Parker; Franklin Richards would be grown up by now. To have characters grow up, they'd have to really commit to it on a universe wide basis rather than having the mess of characters all aging at different rates.

This, but honestly, that to me seems like a limitation of the medium itself. You have the mess of characters developing differently because there is a mess of writers who all want to do different things and tell different stories.

Franklin is an interesting comparison though, and I think he falls under the "holy crap this kid is already god like I'm terrified of what it's gonna be like as an adult" category metahuman mentioned.



'damseled' is a bad thing because its a verb, it implies that your taking someone who isn't a damsel in distress and turning them into one. That's not the same thing as having a character who is that archetype, which isn't good or bad, just boring due to being over-used.

From the context I assume that the first use of the non-word in this thread was to mean 'put in distress' but that's the problem with using words that don't have a definition. Once they get quoted the context vanishes and confuses things.

I guess my question would be - how would someone become that archetype without having it done to them? Moreover, should there be a damsel archetype at all, a character that only exists to get kidnapped or put in danger? Haven't we moved past that in this medium by now? :smallconfused:

[Dragonus45]

"The superhero's family in peril as plot macguffin" is tired and overdone, yes.


The presentation of an idea and the skill of the writing matters infinitely more than the idea itself being "overdone".






I guess my question would be - how would someone become that archetype without having it done to them? Moreover, should there be a damsel archetype at all, a character that only exists to get kidnapped or put in danger? Haven't we moved past that in this medium by now? :smallconfused:

Have we moved past the need to have people that the hero rescues? Not really.

[Kitten Champion]

Have we moved past the need to have people that the hero rescues? Not really.

Sure... but I think introspective brooding clearly takes precedence here.

[Psyren]

The presentation of an idea and the skill of the writing matters infinitely more than the idea itself being "overdone".

Certainly, but those are almost impossible to control. "Writing skill" is far from constant, with even the biggest names having both excellent and execrable storylines to their names.


Have we moved past the need to have people that the hero rescues? Not really.

Rescuing nameless schlubs is one thing, but putting a recurring character in those shoes quickly leaves you with a Scrappy, Faux Action Girl or worse.

[Dragonus45]

Rescuing nameless schlubs is one thing, but putting a recurring character in those shoes quickly leaves you with a Scrappy, Faux Action Girl or worse.

Lois Lane disagrees with you. Your forgetting part where no one in the audience cares about that nameless sclub. But if its a named character people know and like then you actually get their attention.

[Psyren]

Lois Lane disagrees with you. Your forgetting part where no one in the audience cares about that nameless sclub. But if its a named character people know and like then you actually get their attention.

If you're bringing up Lois then MJ already serves that function, such as it is. What's the point in adding a second damsel to the family? One that won't even be able to swing a bat at Chameleon in a brief moment of badassery, even.

At least if we skip ahead to her being a teen or something, we can have her start to get powers and do something meaningful.

[Metahuman1]

On the flip side, by that logic, don't underestimate a kid. No. Seriously. Yeah, it's great to grab the kid cause your bigger, right up till that kid grabs your pinkie finger and throws it toward the ground with there whole body behind it and snicker-snap.

Or, you know, the biting, or the shin kick, or the strategically placed trip.


Underestimate a kid, as Spiderman's rouges are prone to doing, it can back fire on you spectacularly.




Also, it can be done. Lian Harper again comes to mind for a majority of her run.

[Dragonus45]

If you're bringing up Lois then MJ already serves that function, such as it is. What's the point in adding a second damsel to the family? One that won't even be able to swing a bat at Chameleon in a brief moment of badassery, even.

At least if we skip ahead to her being a teen or something, we can have her start to get powers and do something meaningful.

You seem confused, at this point I'm not arguing for May to be added in, Metahuman is doing that just fine. I'm pointing out that someone being a damsel is not automatically bad.

[Metahuman1]

It can indeed be made to work. Here's the thing. Needing to be rescued is not in and of itself a bad thing.

If:

A: The person getting rescued gets to have there share of moments and situations were they rescue the other party right back. (This is why in the Dresden Files novel series Karen Murphy remains workable for so so. Yeah, Harry often has to rescue her against things Mortals literally don't have any appreciable defense against. But there are other times were she will either rescue herself by the time he get's there, or rescue him. Enough that it actually balances out fairly nicely, particularly once you consider he's got powers and she's just a mortal with a lot of combat training and experience.)

B: The person getting rescue has other things to contribute. Likeable personality, significant and often used Knowledge so that they can progress things, stuff like that. They don't have to be perfect. MJ and Lois Lane and in the 2 more recent movies Gwen Stacy are prime examples of this in action.

C: It's used relatively sparingly. Lian Harper was generally a good example of this in the late 90's and early 2000's The Titans series.




I grant unless her powers appear really early, then A would be basically undoable in this case. But B and/or C could be made to work with good writing until such time as she get's a bit older and maybe, arguably, a bit of fighting experience and/or training with her powers when she does come into them under her belt.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I guess my question would be - how would someone become that archetype without having it done to them? Moreover, should there be a damsel archetype at all, a character that only exists to get kidnapped or put in danger? Haven't we moved past that in this medium by now? :smallconfused:

Who is this 'we'?

People are constantly being born. You can't expect everyone to be on the same level.

The problem with wanting to completely eradicate over-used gender tropes is that limiting what roles women can fill is not feminism, having more choices and variety is good. Not every woman is capable of defending themselves, making all fictional women immune to being kidnapped isn't representative.

It would be nice if no one ever wrote another damsel in distress story because we already have plenty of them, but its not realistic to expect all fiction to be of high quality and originality. Promoting good writing is one thing, a political crusade against bad writing is like trying to pick a fight with the sun. As long as people are writing stories a lot of them are going to be terrible.

[Psyren]

I'm not asking for "all fictional women to be immune to being kidnapped." But that's a nice strawman you constructed there.

Metahuman basically summed up what I'm saying, particularly C.

[Kitten Champion]

My problem is that Spider-Man will have a supporting cast of relatively normal people regardless of how you redefine his domestic life, and bad writers can always abuse them for cliched plots. What makes a daughter inherently more problematic than any romantic attachment or friendship he may have?

[Psyren]

My problem is that Spider-Man will have a supporting cast of relatively normal people regardless of how you redefine his domestic life, and bad writers can always abuse them for cliched plots. What makes a daughter inherently more problematic than any romantic attachment or friendship he may have?

Because friends and love interests can be credibly useful in other ways - see "B" and to a lesser extent "A" in Metahuman's post. This makes them more likely to be seen as well-rounded characters rather than irritating lodestones.

For children to contribute in this way is implausible, unless they are extremely powerful wunderkinds a la Franklin Richards or Superman's kid. Spiderman himself is not that powerful and MJ is a muggle, so for his daughter to be strong enough to overcome the inherent limitations of being a child is, as stated, implausible. Hence "damsel" being the most likely role, if she were to get screentime at all.

[The Troubadour]

So is Chameleon's entire purpose to get owned by Peter's friends and family for being a dumbass?

[Get off my lawn, damn kids!]And to think he once was actually a dangerous foe because of his mind and skills, to the point he masterminded a war between the Kingpin and the Lobo brothers.[/Get off my lawn, damn kids!]

[Metahuman1]

Because friends and love interests can be credibly useful in other ways - see "B" and to a lesser extent "A" in Metahuman's post. This makes them more likely to be seen as well-rounded characters rather than irritating lodestones.

For children to contribute in this way is implausible, unless they are extremely powerful wunderkinds a la Franklin Richards or Superman's kid. Spiderman himself is not that powerful and MJ is a muggle, so for his daughter to be strong enough to overcome the inherent limitations of being a child is, as stated, implausible. Hence "damsel" being the most likely role, if she were to get screentime at all.

I'm reminded that I pointed out before the ABC listing you keep citing that underestimating a kid can be a grave mistake all on it's own. At least as bad as Underestimating MJ or Aunt May proved for Chameleon.


And it's Possible she'll pick up his powers early on. Particularly if they go with none organic web shooters and a lack of other mutations he's come and gone by over the decades.


Course, it's also possible for them to use the overall just pleasant personality and/or just use it sparingly because we assume that MJ is really street smart cunning and capable and that Parkers an actual genius (Maybe one with significant allies he can hit up for a favor if we do the smart thing and completely undo Civil War and remove IT from canon.) and we can keep her out of the actual fighting till she's been allowed to age up enough that she's got her own powers. (Hell, maybe we can show Daredevil or Iron Fist or Captain America giving her hand to hand combat lessons from time to time as a background point.)

[Thrudd]

Luke Cage and Jessica Jones have a baby, who has not been kidnapped or used as the focus of anything, except in one issue.
Maybe we could have Danielle Cage-Jones and May Parker team up as super powered kids

[Dragonus45]

Luke Cage and Jessica Jones have a baby, who has not been kidnapped or used as the focus of anything, except in one issue.
Maybe we could have Danielle Cage-Jones and May Parker team up as super powered kids

I would so read that. Heck throw a couple other super power youngsters in there and we have a team.

[Psyren]

I'm reminded that I pointed out before the ABC listing you keep citing that underestimating a kid can be a grave mistake all on it's own. At least as bad as Underestimating MJ or Aunt May proved for Chameleon.


And it's Possible she'll pick up his powers early on. Particularly if they go with none organic web shooters and a lack of other mutations he's come and gone by over the decades.


Course, it's also possible for them to use the overall just pleasant personality and/or just use it sparingly because we assume that MJ is really street smart cunning and capable and that Parkers an actual genius (Maybe one with significant allies he can hit up for a favor if we do the smart thing and completely undo Civil War and remove IT from canon.) and we can keep her out of the actual fighting till she's been allowed to age up enough that she's got her own powers. (Hell, maybe we can show Daredevil or Iron Fist or Captain America giving her hand to hand combat lessons from time to time as a background point.)

The problem though is that aging her up means aging Pete up - unless we go with the earlier suggestion of having her be an alternate-universe interloper, which I already said I wasn't opposed to - and it seems they aren't ready to do that yet.


I would so read that. Heck throw a couple other super power youngsters in there and we have a team.

You mean the baby? (http://marvel.wikia.com/Danielle_Cage_(Earth-616)) Unless there's a supervillain in her crib I'm not sure what they'd team up against.

[Thrudd]

The problem though is that aging her up means aging Pete up - unless we go with the earlier suggestion of having her be an alternate-universe interloper, which I already said I wasn't opposed to - and it seems they aren't ready to do that yet.



You mean the baby? (http://marvel.wikia.com/Danielle_Cage_(Earth-616)) Unless there's a supervillain in her crib I'm not sure what they'd team up against.

Well, we'll have to wait until they're older. Maybe they do some more time jumps in the continuity, or some time travel shenanigans. Yeah, might never happen. But it does seem like other heroes having kids, Jessica Drew is apparently having one, the Richards kids are still really young, there's Shogo. There could totally be a new comic line that takes place 15-20 years in the future, where a new generation of heroes is coming into their own. We could see some of the Battle of the Atom X-Men again, like Storm's daughter.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I'm not asking for "all fictional women to be immune to being kidnapped." But that's a nice strawman you constructed there.


If you think that's a strawman then you either misread my post completely or don't know what that term means. You have to be trying to discredit or undermine someone to straw man them.

Ignoring the actual point of my post and going after a minor bit of hyperbole is nitpicking.

Seeing how your question was clearly rhetorical I probably shouldn't have bothered replying.

[Thialfi]

Luke Cage and Jessica Jones have a baby, who has not been kidnapped or used as the focus of anything, except in one issue.
Maybe we could have Danielle Cage-Jones and May Parker team up as super powered kids

To be fair, that kid has a baby sitter that could take Thanos and Galactus out while changing a diaper. I hear that she is unbeatable, so there isn't going to be a kidnapping.

In all seriousness, I have always wondered why writers hate their characters. Can't anyone be happy and stay that way? Why is a family man or woman a boring character? Peter Parker always worked as the high school super hero with high school problems. Kick the green goblins butt and get home in time to make curfew and study for the science test, but he's been static for 50 years. Why does his character growth have to keep getting reset?

I don't see why Miles Morales can't mine that aspect for the foreseeable future and let Parker be the superhero that tries to balance his business, his family, and his crime fighting.

[Lurkmoar]

In all seriousness, I have always wondered why writers hate their characters. Can't anyone be happy and stay that way? Why is a family man or woman a boring character? Peter Parker always worked as the high school super hero with high school problems. Kick the green goblins butt and get home in time to make curfew and study for the science test, but he's been static for 50 years. Why does his character growth have to keep getting reset?

Comic book time. And because writers don't want them to grow up. Comic books are a visual medium superficially similar to movies lacking auditory components. They work pretty well with alien invasions, crazed cyborgs, mutants leveling whole city blocks and what not, but many of the writers seem to lack the skill or are unwilling to develop secondary supporting casts. And often the ones that have existed get tarnished to 'shake things up'.

Then there are the numerous plot devices that make things getting reset stupidly easy: time travel, various cosmic artifacts, alternate time lines (suppossedly gone, but we'll see), alien shape shifters, robot decoys, literal Gods (Norse and Olympian are only the beginning!), alien technology that can rebuild entire bodies from scratch and the like.

And the format itself: most comics come out once a month with 22 pages as standard. A lot of that is going to be eaten up by the 'villian' and the conflict between the hero. Not much time left for the hero to get a kiss from the man/lady that they saved, let enough some bonding time with child. I'm almost certain that the Fantastic Four have fought Doctor Doom or one of his Doombots more then they've taken vacations... (obviously, comics have to spend times with what the writer considers important, so most of their meals, bathroom breaks, hobbies and down time aren't shown unless they somehow advance the plot).

[Reverent-One]

In all seriousness, I have always wondered why writers hate their characters. Can't anyone be happy and stay that way? Why is a family man or woman a boring character? Peter Parker always worked as the high school super hero with high school problems. Kick the green goblins butt and get home in time to make curfew and study for the science test, but he's been static for 50 years. Why does his character growth have to keep getting reset?


That's the popular conception of him, but isn't true to the comics. He got married in 1987, because a high school teacher, ect. The One More Day reboot took away a lot of that in 2007, but that doesn't mean that your description of the 50 year run is accurate.

[Sith_Happens]

That's the popular conception of him, but isn't true to the comics. He got married in 1987, because a high school teacher, ect. The One More Day reboot took away a lot of that in 2007, but that doesn't mean that your description of the 50 year run is accurate.

He's also currently a billionaire CEO because Doc Ock decided during Superior Spider-Man that as long as he was trying to be a good guy he might as well go into superscience legitimately (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CutLexLuthorACheck) while he was at.

[Metahuman1]

The problem though is that aging her up means aging Pete up - unless we go with the earlier suggestion of having her be an alternate-universe interloper, which I already said I wasn't opposed to - and it seems they aren't ready to do that yet.



You mean the baby? (http://marvel.wikia.com/Danielle_Cage_(Earth-616)) Unless there's a supervillain in her crib I'm not sure what they'd team up against.

Yes, yes you would. Though hardly to point of a problem. No walkers and wheel chairs and fiber powder required.

A few lines on the face, the odd tidbit of dialog and/or narration remembering it, boom, done.


If they started coming into powers earlier in life you might not even need to really do that. We had Lian Harper and Tim Drake and Cassie Sandsmark and Stephanie Brown and Richard Grayson and Barbara Gordon and Conner Kent and Wally West and Roy Harper and Mia Drearden and Bart Allen and Jason Todd AND Cassie Cain all go from anywhere to infants to 8-10 year olds up to late teens and early 20's prior to the New 52, if not further.

There's no reason We can't have a team about superpowered 4-10 year olds being adorable and fighting evil with super powers. In fact, Marvel not only did it but one of there top bosses has mentioned interest in doing a movie about it. It was called Power Pack. The only reason they HAVEN'T done it yet as near as I can tell is that they want to flesh out the Cinematic U more by finishing the Infinity War at least, and don't Own Movie Rights to Franklin Richards and the FF. Heck, they could in theory write the FF and even Franklin Richards out of the origin story since he wasn't a founding member of the group, and go in a different direction.

Assuming of course Fox doesn't cave and let Marvel and Disney in the way Sony did on FF, X-men and the other odds and ends they still have.

[Logic]

I know. I didn't even know her unique traits until recently.To be fair, I only read one Ultimate Spiderman comic (possibly from family friend) back and ripoffs in Myanmar/Burma. To be fair, JMS run was too early during the debut of film and Agent Venom wasn't created yet.
Even sadder than this was also when I discovered One More Day's retcon and Spiderisland* where she became awesome Spiderman due to Spiderman's radioactive spunk (Sorry, TheThan, Spiderman: Reign is canon now and the old clone saga had one though). I was hoping Peter to repopulate Parker line with mini-redheads until Superior Spiderman (I don't care about "diversity" or "look isn't everything" or "raising an army and not being noticed as impostor by that point").
*the only good thing from Dan Slott's run.MJ did not become a Spider-powered individual for her intimate connection to Peter. She got bit by a bed bug the same as Carly.


He's also currently a billionaire CEO because Doc Ock decided during Superior Spider-Man that as long as he was trying to be a good guy he might as well go into superscience legitimately (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CutLexLuthorACheck) while he was at.

Fixed that for you.

[t209]

So Issue 2 and 3.
We got Powerpack and they did address the implication of Spidey's murdering Venom.

[t209]

Final Issue
That was pretty good and didn't involve murdering Spidey's family for glee. However, the denizens of the zone doesn't know Doom and the Regent was using dead superheroes to use their powers to take on Doom.
It's real, it's more of an amusement park than a kingdom.

[Logic]

Final Issue
That was pretty good and didn't involve murdering Spidey's family for glee. However, the denizens of the zone doesn't know Doom and the Regent was using dead superheroes to use their powers to take on Doom.
It's real, it's more of an amusement park than a kingdom.

I liked it. This particular location is more of a self-contained Zoo than a Kingdom within Doom's Battleworld. Although, I wonder why that is. Even the characters of the Monarchy of M and The Iron and the Blue know that Doom sits on top. But not the people of the renew your vows. And apparently not the people of Spider-Girl's universe either, but how that ties into the bigger Secret Wars story remains to be seen.

[Thrudd]

I liked it. This particular location is more of a self-contained Zoo than a Kingdom within Doom's Battleworld. Although, I wonder why that is. Even the characters of the Monarchy of M and The Iron and the Blue know that Doom sits on top. But not the people of the renew your vows. And apparently not the people of Spider-Girl's universe either, but how that ties into the bigger Secret Wars story remains to be seen.

Yeah, knowledge of Battleworld as a whole varies from realm to realm, it seems. Old Man Logan likewise had no knowledge of other realms existing or of Doom. Some realms do regular business with their neighbors, the Thors, and Doomstadt. Apparently the Manhattan realm of Ultimate End knew about Doom, but had no knowledge of other realms and alternate versions of people until they "accidentally" made the portal to ultimate manhattan.

The one rule for all the realms across all the comics is that nobody is allowed to cross borders, knowingly or not, without Doom's permission. Doing so gets you arrested by Thors and probably sent to the shield to fight zombies and ultrons and bugs. Based on that law, I guess Doom was trying, with varying degrees of success, to keep all the realms isolated and people ignorant of their alternate versions. The more people get together and are aware of Battleworld as a whole, the more they seem to get rebellious and question the state of things.

[t209]

Even more upsetting news,
While Peter Parker became Tony Stark 2.0, Mary Jane is now an employee of Tony. And Spiderman will be in Africa and consider that it's Dan Slott and the description of issue 2 calling Africa as a whole, he will make starving black babies and AIDS joke using some-what prosperous African nation as a setting. Having negative feelings.
Hope it didn't turn out to be Freaky Friday or "on certain days, Peter Parker is Iron Man while Tony Stark is Spiderman despite having huge plot holes as a result"*
*like how Captain Marvel/Shazam posed as Superman in the future.

[Logic]

Even more upsetting news,
While Peter Parker became Tony Stark 2.0, Mary Jane is now an employee of Tony. And Spiderman will be in Africa and consider that it's Dan Slott and the description of issue 2 calling Africa as a whole, he will make starving black babies and AIDS joke using some-what prosperous African nation as a setting. Having negative feelings.
Hope it didn't turn out to be Freaky Friday or "on certain days, Peter Parker is Iron Man while Tony Stark is Spiderman despite having huge plot holes as a result"*
*like how Captain Marvel/Shazam posed as Superman in the future.

What is this? When? Who?

I am so confused. Let me ask a question with a possible answer: What comic does this take place in? (I am aware of the DC issue that seems to parallel this Marvel story.)

[Thrudd]

What is this? When? Who?

I am so confused. Let me ask a question with a possible answer: What comic does this take place in? (I am aware of the DC issue that seems to parallel this Marvel story.)

He's exaggerating and making uninformed guesses based on little information we have about the upcoming Amazing Spiderman comic.

Spiderman, just prior to Secret Wars, was running his own super-science corporation (poorly). The next series will continue this storyline, with him being involved in international business, traveling outside of New York, and having more gadgets built by his company. That's basically all we know. There's been an article that says Mary Jane will be in the new Iron Man comic, as an employee of one of his companies.

[t209]

http://www.comicvine.com/articles/mary-jane-watson-to-join-invincible-iron-man-suppo/1100-153549/ (MJ in Ironman)
http://www.newsarama.com/25911-what-we-learned-from-marvel-s-december-solicitations.html (Spiderman in Africa)
Oh, guys, I think evidences are in order. Also those are my (negative) speculations.

[t209]

http://hellocomic.com/img/magazines/amazing-spider-man-renew-your-vows-secret-wars/secret-wars-amazing-spider-man-renew-your-vows-05/Amazing%20Spider-Man%20-%20Renew%20Your%20Vows%20005-000c%20(Joe%20Quesada%20Variant%20Cover%20A)%20(Ma stodon).jpg
Well, I wonder how Quesada managed (or coerced) into to drawing MJ and PP married consider that *cough* annulment story.