Sorcerer/Bard multiclassing attempt

[Dimolyth]

Hello everyone.

That`s about my first poste on this forum, but I`ve been lurking here a lot of time already. So, I want you to make your opinion about mechanical issues of this character concept of mine.

I`ll join an adventure party in a home campagne in FR.
They all are already 10 level, I will start at 9th. They are pretty balanced, they have Fighter/Warlock, Paladin, Wizard, Rogue and a Cleric.

I have already character concept of wild elf/loremaster/olin gisir/descendant of ancient Mierytar. It ought to be a spellcaster of "not that high elves` wizards` way of magic", but having his own ancient tradition of wild elves high mages back to the time of Coronal Wars.

For mechanical side, I`d like to make a debuffer/loremaster. Thus it is two classes in my mind: Favored Soul Sorcerer and Lore Bard - for "strange magic tradition" (Metamagic + Cutting Words) and "I know everything and can survive myself" (Con save + Jack All Trades). For "Olin Gisir" aprouch I think about Ritual Caster (wizard) feat.
As for stats - we are rolling at the moment of character creation, though the general plan is Cha > Int > Wis > Con = Dex > Str.

I have hesitations `cause I`ve played only at levels 1-4 at 5E. So, I have only theoretical knowledges about how spells at midd leveles are working. At 9th level I have Sorcerer3/Bard6 in mind. That means 20 spell known of level 1-3. A lot of utility and out combat buff. Plus, for combat there are Cutting Words + Bane + maybe Heighten Spell with nonconcentration debuffs (for instance - that is Blindness and 5th level Bestrow Curse) or Conjure Animals for assistance from Magic secrets.
Here I`m afraid that I`ll miss high level spells, and I`d like to know about how efficient are low level debuffs at higher slots in comparison of high level spells? So, is multiclassing is worth it, or it is simplier to go straight bard and take missing spells by secrets? That will be narrowing of the character, eliminating buffs from trickery domain, concetration proficiency, metamagic and breaking slots.


And sorry for my English, it not native, not even my second language of use.

[Madfellow]

I would avoid muticlassing, especially with spellcasters and especially if you're new. I would go straight Lore Bard all the way.

[Celcey]

I think you'll be okay with multiclassing. Since they're both spellcasters, I think you'd use the multiclass spell list in the multiclass section. But you mention your stat orders go Cha > Int > Wis > Con = Dex > Str, which is probably not such a hot idea. I would put Dex after Cha, because Dex give you your AC, then Con for HP, then Wis for the saves. While Int may be important fluff-wise (I don't know), it's a very bad tactical choice to put a high number in for this build.

[SharkForce]

i think you can get some pretty effective use out of lower level CC spells. the concept can certainly work. level 3 really does have some of the best options until you start comparing to the really big guns (level 6+ spells).

i feel like starting at level 9 will certainly help get you over the worst part of the build to play as well (so long as you don't try to level up your two classes evenly; i'd keep progressing bard, considering *at most* one more sorcerer level for an ASI and an extra sorcery point, but only if you have a specific use in mind for it, like being able to twin a 4th level spell or something).

i also feel like you will probably be feeling *really* jealous of the wizard's higher level spells once you see what they can do though.

however, if you want to play the character, i wouldn't cast my vote for heighten as a metamagic. 3 sorcery points is a lot (in fact, it's as many as you can hold at one time). if you want to make good use of save or X spells, my personal recommendation is careful spell. use your magical secrets to learn entangle and cast a careful entangle, or use your sorcerer levels to pick up web and cast a careful web; your party can walk around in it without drawbacks, your enemies risk being restrained by the effects.

for a second metamagic, i can see an argument for either quicken or twin... my personal vote would be twin. gives you cheaper use of extra cantrip damage, lets you make single-target control spells into dual-target control spells, and in the event that you want to buff instead of debuff, twin is much more useful for that than quicken imo. on the flip side, quicken can combo well with certain specific spells (particularly spells that allow you to use them as an action, like sunbeam or eyebite), and lets you deal your damage to a single target if you need to. both have other considerations though; because you only have 3 sorcerer levels, the highest level of spell you can twin is 3, and only when your sorcery points are full. because you only have 3 sorcerer levels, you won't have many sorcery points and may find yourself regularly using your bonus action to create more sorcery points anyways.

i would straight up ignore empower and distant spell. extend has some value, but probably not enough to strongly consider. subtle spell is very situational; do you expect your DM to use spells like silence on you? does your DM like to capture the PCs often? does your DM rule that grappling a target occupies their hands? do you fight underwater a lot or in situations where breathing is highly not recomended? if so, subtle spell can be a very powerful choice. does your DM feel that stealth checks can be made while casting a spell that requires you to speak without revealing your location, and that the vocal and somatic components of suggestion can be disguised to not look like you're casting a spell? that will make subtle spell a less interesting choice (note that you'll still need to cover material components. fortunately you're probably going to have decent dex, and this is probably a sleight of hand check).

in any event, *if* you are going to make this work, i feel like you need to make choices that will make the wizard as jealous of your metamagic as you are going to be of his level 6 spells that he's getting next time he gains a level. heighten... honestly, imo, is not going to be the choice that does that. careful spell, though... i think once you cast your first careful web or stinking cloud, he's going to start re-examining his build to see if he can fit 3 sorcerer levels in too :P

for the other metamagic you get, like i said... subtle spell or twin, imo, depending on how much use you think you can get out of subtle. twin is the safter pick, subtle is another one of those choices where from time to time, the wizard is going to feel very jealous.


but again, you *will* be jealous of what the wizard can do with higher level spells known rather than just higher level spell slots. no-concentration bestow curse or 5-target hold person is nice. but mass suggestion is absolutely amazing. (also, if the campaign spends much time at level 18+ you're going to really miss being able to cast wish, i think). so long as you go in with that in mind, i think you can do fine. but if you don't feel like you've got a good grip on the system, then multiclassing can have major drawbacks and you should probably avoid it.

edit: agree with celcey on attributes. you can use your expertise class feature to know lots of things by choosing skills like nature, arcana, and history.

[JAL_1138]

I would avoid muticlassing, especially with spellcasters and especially if you're new. I would go straight Lore Bard all the way.

I would agree here. Just go lore bard and yoink a couple of your favorite Sorc spells with the lvl 6 Magical Secrets, grab another couple when you level at 10. Multiclassing will unduly overcomplicate things and delay acquisition of higher-level spells. Lore Bard is already an excellent debuffer in its own right.

[Dimolyth]

Thanks everyone for your help.

For the stats, Int was there really just for fluff, high intelligence + expertise in knowledge skills. Also, I don`t sure if I can take Ritual Caster (wizard) with Wisdom modifier. Dexterity was placed after Wisdom because of medium armor proficiency from Favored Soul (so, I need just 12 before racial modifiers for AC). But that is something I can`t predict for sure, not before rolling stats.

I`m not convinced for making pure Lore Bard because small number of spell known. I`m sure, that I will not match the power of party wizard, but at least I`ll have more low-level versality that he would bother. This exact build gives total 20 spells known from Bard, Sorcerer, Trickery Domain and Any classes.
The point of build is single source of Bane + Bestrow Curse against bosses OR wall fur with Conjure Animals against hordes OR Pass Without Trace/Enchance Ability + Jack All Trades for out combat situations (80% of time with our DM). That will feel very different to a blaster wizard in the party. (And for the heritage of Coronal Wars and Great Disaster caused by high elve`s epic magic - using "more simple" but strange magic will create right feeling of the character). And yes, I will be jealous for sure, but the character will be proud for "not using that high level blasts".

As for metamagic choises - Heighten was chosen to make "any target to fail save for sure" - it was suposed to be used only with cutting words and bane preseted. That is also the question - because at low levels (which I`ve played) NPC had a 40% chance to succed any saves all the time. And I don`t know if the balance is changed at middle levels. The other metamagic was supposed to be Quicken Spell (but they are expensive together) - and I really haven`t thought about Careful Spell - it really allows to "shape magic" by will! So thanks a lot it`s a really cool advise.

And for progression, I don`t think we will be playing at 18+ levels for a long time, so I don`t bother a lot about "what this build looks like at 20th level", especcialy if it could participate at teamwork. I was thinking about proggression as Bard for the rest of time, but I`m not sure if 3 sorcery points will be enough at high levels (and going Sorcerer 5 would also give 4 spells including super self buff as Blink)

[Madfellow]

I`m not convinced for making pure Lore Bard because small number of spell known. I`m sure, that I will not match the power of party wizard, but at least I`ll have more low-level versality that he would bother. This exact build gives total 20 spells known from Bard, Sorcerer, Trickery Domain and Any classes.

Don't worry if your character doesn't know as many spells as the wizard. The wizard's whole schtick is that they know more spells than any other arcane caster. Bards make up for it in other ways: weapon, armor, and skill proficiencies specifically.

[JAL_1138]

Don't worry if your character doesn't know as many spells as the wizard. The wizard's whole schtick is that they know more spells than any other arcane caster. Bards make up for it in other ways: weapon, armor, and skill proficiencies specifically.

Yup. Lore bard is the ultimate skillmonkey, and there's no reason you couldn't take the Ritual caster feat if you wanted. Plus, the ability to poach spells from any class makes up for fewer spells known.

I don't see why you couldn't take Ritual Caster (Wizard) if you have Int or Wis of 13 or better, per the feat prerequisite.

Regarding high level spells, I don't mean 8th and 9th, I mean it'll leave you stuck with lower level spells for your level. And you won't know many more than you would as a bard: Sorc 3 gets you 4 cantrips and 4 spells known, added to Lore Bard 6's 9 spells known, 3 cantrips, and two Magical Secrets. 15 spells. Straight Lore bard 9 gets 12 spells known and two Magical Secrets, 14 spells, and catches up at 10 when it picks up two new ones from any list (and which can be 5th-level), to the multiclass' one new spell, of level 4 (if leveling as a bard) or level 2 (if leveling as a sorcerer).

Sure, you'll have 7 cantrips, but they're cantrips. You won't have the 3 fourth-level spells and 1 fifth-level spell of Lore Bard 9 or Sorcerer 9. Slots, yes--spells, no.

[SharkForce]

Yup. Lore bard is the ultimate skillmonkey, and there's no reason you couldn't take the Ritual caster feat if you wanted. Plus, the ability to poach spells from any class makes up for fewer spells known.

I don't see why you couldn't take Ritual Caster (Wizard) if you have Int or Wis of 13 or better, per the feat prerequisite.

Regarding high level spells, I don't mean 8th and 9th, I mean it'll leave you stuck with lower level spells for your level. And you won't know many more than you would as a bard: Sorc 3 gets you 4 cantrips and 4 spells known, added to Lore Bard 6's 9 spells known, 3 cantrips, and two Magical Secrets. 15 spells. Straight Lore bard 9 gets 12 spells known and two Magical Secrets, 14 spells, and catches up at 10 when it picks up two new ones from any list (and which can be 5th-level), to the multiclass' one new spell, of level 4 (if leveling as a bard) or level 2 (if leveling as a sorcerer).

Sure, you'll have 7 cantrips, but they're cantrips. You won't have the 3 fourth-level spells and 1 fifth-level spell of Lore Bard 9 or Sorcerer 9. Slots, yes--spells, no.

i think the level 20 comment was directed to me (i mentioned that wish would be something this bard will never cast).

also, you're forgetting that this is a favoured soul. it gets 4 spells from domain.

@ dimolyth: cutting words does not help with saving throws. you can modify checks, but saves are a different kind of roll than checks. bane is nice in theory, but in practice i suspect that you will find that by the time you've landed it on your target, could have landed something even better by just casting that in the first place most of the time.

the only ability i am aware of that impacts enemy saving throws as a number modifier (other than bane) is the wild sorcerer bend luck ability. as far as items, keep an eye out for anything that raises your charisma, or your proficiency bonus. the wizard will probably want the only items that directly increase save DCs (robe of the archmagi and staff of the magi), but you can argue for them as well - especially the staff which will give you a lot more spells you can use (if they show up, that is... they're pretty unlikely to).

heighten can make one target really likely to fail a save if they were already pretty likely to fail, but you'd be better off just using your knowledge skills to give an idea of what their weakest save is, and target that instead. especially as you gain levels, the different between saves can be very large; a creature might have a +10 with advantage in their good save, but only +1 or +2 (though often still with advantage) in a bad save. even with heighten, they still have a pretty good chance to make a save with a +10 modifier, but even without heighten, they'll struggle to make a DC 19 save with a +2 modifier. or, in other words, as you gain levels, enemies won't always have about a 40% chance to make saves - as long as you target their bad saves instead of the good ones (again, having high knowledge skills should help with this)

remember that 3 sorcery points is not all you have. you can have up to 3 at any time, but you can always convert your spell slots into more sorcery points as a bonus action. if 3 is not enough, and you want more, you would be better off turning your spell slots into more sorcery points than you would be taking more levels of sorcerer, which cost you higher level spells known and only gain you a single sorcery point.

[Dimolyth]

Yup. Lore bard is the ultimate skillmonkey, and there's no reason you couldn't take the Ritual caster feat if you wanted. Plus, the ability to poach spells from any class makes up for fewer spells known.

I don't see why you couldn't take Ritual Caster (Wizard) if you have Int or Wis of 13 or better, per the feat prerequisite.

Regarding high level spells, I don't mean 8th and 9th, I mean it'll leave you stuck with lower level spells for your level. And you won't know many more than you would as a bard: Sorc 3 gets you 4 cantrips and 4 spells known, added to Lore Bard 6's 9 spells known, 3 cantrips, and two Magical Secrets. 15 spells. Straight Lore bard 9 gets 12 spells known and two Magical Secrets, 14 spells, and catches up at 10 when it picks up two new ones from any list (and which can be 5th-level), to the multiclass' one new spell, of level 4 (if leveling as a bard) or level 2 (if leveling as a sorcerer).

Sure, you'll have 7 cantrips, but they're cantrips. You won't have the 3 fourth-level spells and 1 fifth-level spell of Lore Bard 9 or Sorcerer 9. Slots, yes--spells, no.

At this point I don`t really feel that delay in 4th and 5th level spells will be discouraging. Bard spells there are all nice (Confusion is fun, Polymorph is more versalite, but they are not that better than Bestrow Curse), but not particulary more powerfull than using lower level debuffs multi-targeting. The thing I will miss - that is delay ofhigher level Secrets (though, I`ve not already picked the spells)

And for cantrips - it is more thematically preset (the character is outcast from High Moor, needs fire or acid cantrips as troll fighting experience). And to have cantrips which can target different saves and landing different debuffs could help to be a debuffer 24 hours in a row.


i think the level 20 comment was directed to me (i mentioned that wish would be something this bard will never cast).

also, you're forgetting that this is a favoured soul. it gets 4 spells from domain.

@ dimolyth: cutting words does not help with saving throws. you can modify checks, but saves are a different kind of roll than checks. bane is nice in theory, but in practice i suspect that you will find that by the time you've landed it on your target, could have landed something even better by just casting that in the first place most of the time.

the only ability i am aware of that impacts enemy saving throws as a number modifier (other than bane) is the wild sorcerer bend luck ability. as far as items, keep an eye out for anything that raises your charisma, or your proficiency bonus. the wizard will probably want the only items that directly increase save DCs (robe of the archmagi and staff of the magi), but you can argue for them as well - especially the staff which will give you a lot more spells you can use (if they show up, that is... they're pretty unlikely to).

heighten can make one target really likely to fail a save if they were already pretty likely to fail, but you'd be better off just using your knowledge skills to give an idea of what their weakest save is, and target that instead. especially as you gain levels, the different between saves can be very large; a creature might have a +10 with advantage in their good save, but only +1 or +2 (though often still with advantage) in a bad save. even with heighten, they still have a pretty good chance to make a save with a +10 modifier, but even without heighten, they'll struggle to make a DC 19 save with a +2 modifier. or, in other words, as you gain levels, enemies won't always have about a 40% chance to make saves - as long as you target their bad saves instead of the good ones (again, having high knowledge skills should help with this)

remember that 3 sorcery points is not all you have. you can have up to 3 at any time, but you can always convert your spell slots into more sorcery points as a bonus action. if 3 is not enough, and you want more, you would be better off turning your spell slots into more sorcery points than you would be taking more levels of sorcerer, which cost you higher level spells known and only gain you a single sorcery point.

Wow, that was a huge point. Since I didn`t read cutting words description precisely (I thought that targets attacks/checks/save rolls, not attacks/checks/damage rolls). That fact is really a build-changer, so Blink/Mirror Image will loose their appeal, and restraining spells and illusions (granting pseudo-saves as checks) will be more desirable.

Here, Bend Luck needs another 3 levels of Sorcerer investement, the loss of domain spells and medium armor and wild magic surge is applyed only to sorcerer spells.

Sunergy of Bane was especially with debuffs that allows target to make a save each turn (and non-concentration, of cause) I haven`t studied high level debuffs, but that was Bestrow Curse in my mind. But you have your reasons: it could be better to land Bane after non-concentration debuff.

And your point about the difference in good/bad saves on enemies is THAT I did not know , because of lack of experience at mid. levels in 5E. So, that makes intelligence checks even more important. It is supposed to have expertise in Arcana and Nature (fiends/undeads/celestials are covered by paladin and cleric). As it makes the diversity in selection of spells. Here maybe even Banishement becomes more appealing...

So, thank a lot for everyone. You helped me a lot.

[SharkForce]

to clarify, the problem i have with bane is that you're spending an action and concentration on it to debuff the target a little bit, which is fine if that's all you wanted to do in the first place...

but it doesn't work to set someone up for, say, hold person. unless you're working together with someone else, that is. because most of the spells you're going to want to combine it with will also be concentration spells.

then combine that with needing to spend two rounds (the first to cast bane, the second to cast the spell you actually wanted in the first place), and the fact that most fights don't tend to last for more than 4 rounds in the first place, and you've potentially missed half or more of the fight by the time you get your actual crowd control in place.

anyways, i'd say give it a try if you want, but that is my perspective on bane. it will work alright if you work together with other people in the party to take advantage of the saving throw penalty you're giving, or if you throw one of the rare non-concentration debuff spells afterwards (like blindness/deafness).

and yeah, i was not suggesting you switch to wild sorcerer and take 6 levels in sorcerer. i was just mentioning how rare it is to be able to modify enemy saving throws.

also, on a side note, spells like blink and mirror image are still great spells. not getting hit means you don't risk losing concentration on your spells.

[Dimolyth]

to clarify, the problem i have with bane is that you're spending an action and concentration on it to debuff the target a little bit, which is fine if that's all you wanted to do in the first place...

but it doesn't work to set someone up for, say, hold person. unless you're working together with someone else, that is. because most of the spells you're going to want to combine it with will also be concentration spells.

then combine that with needing to spend two rounds (the first to cast bane, the second to cast the spell you actually wanted in the first place), and the fact that most fights don't tend to last for more than 4 rounds in the first place, and you've potentially missed half or more of the fight by the time you get your actual crowd control in place.

anyways, i'd say give it a try if you want, but that is my perspective on bane. it will work alright if you work together with other people in the party to take advantage of the saving throw penalty you're giving, or if you throw one of the rare non-concentration debuff spells afterwards (like blindness/deafness).

and yeah, i was not suggesting you switch to wild sorcerer and take 6 levels in sorcerer. i was just mentioning how rare it is to be able to modify enemy saving throws.

also, on a side note, spells like blink and mirror image are still great spells. not getting hit means you don't risk losing concentration on your spells.

For Mirror Image (I`ll have it nevertheless from domain) and Blink now have more free uses of Inspiration (that means, it`s not used on my turn for discrupting saves) or combination of Bane + Shield (which makes AC 21-24 in a simple chain shirt), but that IS really rear occasion that a caster is targeted with our DM (most of enemies concentrate fire at mellee PC, that is only recuring villians, who know our tactics really uses our weaknesses).

And you are right, Bane is only good as preset for non-concentration spells. The trick is to have all these spells known, and then convince party cleric and party wizard to prepare more for "save or suck" than spell attack spells. Baned and blinded, a bunch of enemies will be easy targets for the rest of the party (that`s a pitty I can`t combine this in one round with quicken spell, but that is 5E, and casters ought to be balanced... and I certanly will not take 2 levels in Fighter for Action Surge).

And for the reason, I planned to take Alert feat after maxing Charisma (it is thematically for RP reasons), so it will be a good chance to go first. So, a minor preset debuff won`t make me feel not participating (1 round - bane for everyone; 2 round - blindness for survivors).

[Ashrym]

Yeah, bane isn't so much a set up spell as the flipside of bless and a general combat debuff. Spending 2 turns and 2 spells for a setup doesn't strike me as preferable to taking heightened spell instead.

I wouldn't worry about spells known going straight lore bard. Bards start with more than warlocks or sorcerers and gain them faster, and lore gets extra secrets so know quite a few fast. As mentioned, they can pick up ritual caster wizard as a feat if there is a concern.

What I don't like with the sorcerer / bard MC is giving up one feat/ASI at the highest levels should a person get that high, losing the last magical secrets for less of the highest level spells known, and delays in accessing higher level spells and abilities for the trade off of metamagic because of the fewer sorcery points.

I like the metamagic but trading off too many spell slots to power it doesn't make it worth it to me. I would be more inclined to play on or the other instead of mixing both. Cleric or warlock make better splashes if a person wants to multiclass a bard or sorcerer.

Edit: pure lore bard sounds exactly like what you want, and already has ritual casting for known bard spells with the ritual tag. Just adding the wizard ritual caster feat and resilience CON does exactly what you want with room to pump CHA. Starting at lvl 9 should be 1 ASI to CHA and either feat depending how many bard ritual spells are known.

[SharkForce]

Yeah, bane isn't so much a set up spell as the flipside of bless and a general combat debuff. Spending 2 turns and 2 spells for a setup doesn't strike me as preferable to taking heightened spell instead.

I wouldn't worry about spells known going straight lore bard. Bards start with more than warlocks or sorcerers and gain them faster, and lore gets extra secrets so know quite a few fast. As mentioned, they can pick up ritual caster wizard as a feat if there is a concern.

What I don't like with the sorcerer / bard MC is giving up one feat/ASI at the highest levels should a person get that high, losing the last magical secrets for less of the highest level spells known, and delays in accessing higher level spells and abilities for the trade off of metamagic because of the fewer sorcery points.

I like the metamagic but trading off too many spell slots to power it doesn't make it worth it to me. I would be more inclined to play on or the other instead of mixing both. Cleric or warlock make better splashes if a person wants to multiclass a bard or sorcerer.

with the right metamagic choices, you don't need very many sorcerery points. careful spell probably amounts to 1 SP spent per fight, for example. heighten costs a bunch, quicken is pretty bad, and twin can be pretty painful depending on what you twin, but something like subtle adds a lot of options that won't be used much, and won't cost much when it is used. combined with the social skills of a bar, I expect you could get a lot done with subtle suggestion...

[Ashrym]

with the right metamagic choices, you don't need very many sorcerery points. careful spell probably amounts to 1 SP spent per fight, for example. heighten costs a bunch, quicken is pretty bad, and twin can be pretty painful depending on what you twin, but something like subtle adds a lot of options that won't be used much, and won't cost much when it is used. combined with the social skills of a bar, I expect you could get a lot done with subtle suggestion...

Heighten matched what the OP was describing.

Subtle adds a use not commonly seen and models after the arcane trickster or beguiler styles. If I were to MC bard and sorcerer I would likely go that route and also pick up distant spell.

I would prefer faster access to higher level spells and abilities, personally.

[Dimolyth]

with the right metamagic choices, you don't need very many sorcerery points. careful spell probably amounts to 1 SP spent per fight, for example. heighten costs a bunch, quicken is pretty bad, and twin can be pretty painful depending on what you twin, but something like subtle adds a lot of options that won't be used much, and won't cost much when it is used. combined with the social skills of a bar, I expect you could get a lot done with subtle suggestion...

Subtle is great choise, I absolutely agree. But not at style of this particular character - he will be using ashes of mistletoes, fine sand, fleece and iron wires for material components instead of arcane focus/musical instruments. At top of that (and pretty much because there are no "party face" in our campagnes) I`m not aiming to take proficiency at charisma skills (most of survival/knowledge).
Careful for use each fight and heighten for emergency garanted spell vs big bosses. Distant is actually opposite to Heighten - distant is useful for several spells, but I will be using it each time I`ll cast that spell, Heighten can be used at most of spells, but it is worth using occasionaly.

[Ashrym]

Subtle is great choise, I absolutely agree. But not at style of this particular character - he will be using ashes of mistletoes, fine sand, fleece and iron wires for material components instead of arcane focus/musical instruments. At top of that (and pretty much because there are no "party face" in our campagnes) I`m not aiming to take proficiency at charisma skills (most of survival/knowledge).
Careful for use each fight and heighten for emergency garanted spell vs big bosses. Distant is actually opposite to Heighten - distant is useful for several spells, but I will be using it each time I`ll cast that spell, Heighten can be used at most of spells, but it is worth using occasionaly.

Just to clarify, you will not know many metamagic options with 3 sorcerer levels. 3 sorcerer levels restricted you to 2 choices for metamagic.

You don't need proficiency in CHA skills. A high CHA plus jack-of-all-trades will give close to the same bonus so even not taking a party face you still have the opportunity available.

Proficiency in skills that have lower ability score modifiers and then jack-of-all-trades in skills with higher ability score modifiers makes a lore bard very rounded in most skills.

[Dimolyth]

Just to clarify, you will not know many metamagic options with 3 sorcerer levels. 3 sorcerer levels restricted you to 2 choices for metamagic.

You don't need proficiency in CHA skills. A high CHA plus jack-of-all-trades will give close to the same bonus so even not taking a party face you still have the opportunity available.

Proficiency in skills that have lower ability score modifiers and then jack-of-all-trades in skills with higher ability score modifiers makes a lore bard very rounded in most skills.

Yeah, the plan for skills was to have no cha keyed but collect 4 knowledge (Arcana and Nature with expertise) and Survival/Handle Animal/Perception/Insight... the last one either Investigation or Stealth (though, I`d like investigation more, for stealth there is already Pass Without Trace for the whole party). I just mean that "beguiler" is not very suitable for this character despite of high charisma combined with archetypical beguiler`s classes.

Though I already will have disguise self and charm person (from domain), so maybe to add suggestion and have this spells cast subtle, while casting debuffs and combat spells with material components rather than focuses could work as desired "old way of magic by Mierytari elves". And also, I don`t know how it works to cast subtle with material components. The character just needs to have them in possession and they automatically dissepair while casting? And what about casting subtle rituals for that matter?

That really means the choise is subtle OR heighten. The fact that heighten can remove advantage on saves or nearly garantee failure means a lot. Yes, it is really situational, but the other metamagic is careful, which will be used nearly each fight, I imagine.